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It’s all about information, Professor Feser

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Over at his blog, Professor Edward Feser has been writing a multi-part critique of Professor Alex Rosenberg’s bestselling book, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions. Rosenberg is an unabashed defender of scientism, an all-out reductionist who doesn’t believe in a “self”, doesn’t believe we have thoughts that are genuinely about anything, and doesn’t believe in free will or morality. Instead, he advocates what he calls “nice nihilism.” In the last line of his book, Rosenberg advises his readers to “Take a Prozac or your favorite serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and keep taking them till they kick in.”

Edward Feser has done an excellent job of demolishing Rosenberg’s arguments, and if readers want to peruse his posts from start to finish, they can read them all here:

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six

Professor Rosenberg’s argument that Darwinism is incompatible with God

In his latest installment, Professor Feser takes aim at an argument put forward by Rosenberg, that Darwinism is incompatible with the idea that God is omniscient. In his reply to Rosenberg, Feser also takes a swipe at Intelligent Design, about which I’ll have more to say below. In the meantime, let’s have a look at Rosenberg’s argument against theistic evolution.

Rosenberg argues as follows: Darwinian processes, being non-teleological, do not aim at the generation of any particular kind of species, including the human species. What’s more, these processes contain a built-in element of irreducible randomness: variation. Mutations are random, and no one could have known in advance that evolution would go the way it did. Therefore if God had used such processes as a means of creating us, He could not have known that they would be successful, and therefore He would not be omniscient.

In his response, Feser criticizes Professor Rosenberg’s argument on several grounds, arguing that:

(i) belief in the God of classical theism does not logically entail that the emergence of the human race was an event planned by Him (i.e. God might have intentionally made the cosmos, but we might have been an accident);

(ii) God may have intended that the universe should contain rational beings (who possess the ability to reason by virtue of their having immortal souls) without intending that these beings should be human beings, with the kind of body that Homo sapiens possesses – hence our bodies may be the result of an accidental process;

(iii) if you believe in the multiverse (which Feser doesn’t but Rosenberg does), it is perfectly consistent to hold that while the evolution of Homo sapiens may have been improbable in any particular universe, nevertheless it would have been inevitable within some universe; and

(iv) in any case, the probabilistic nature of Darwinian processes does not rule out divine intervention.

Professor Feser’s big beef with Rosenberg’s argument: Divine causality is of a different order from that of natural causes

But Professor Feser’s chief objection to Rosenberg’s anti-theistic argument is that it ignores the distinction between Divine and creaturely causality. At this point, Feser takes pains to distinguish his intellectual position from that of the Intelligent Design movement. He remarks: “What Aristotelian-Thomistic critics of ID fundamentally object to is ID’s overly anthropomorphic conception of God and its implicit confusion of primary and secondary causality.” (I should point out in passing that Intelligent Design is a scientific program, and as such, it makes no claim to identify the Designer. Nevertheless, many Intelligent Design proponents would be happy to refer to this Designer as God.)

God, argues Feser, is like the author of a book. Intelligent natural agents (e.g. human beings) are the characters in the story, while sub-intelligent agents correspond to the everyday processes described within the story. The key point here is that God is outside the book that He creates and maintains in existence (i.e. the cosmos), while we are inside it. God’s causality is therefore of an entirely different order from that of creatures. To say that God intervened in the history of life in order to guarantee that Homo sapiens would emerge (as Rosenberg seems to think that believers in God-guided evolution are bound to believe) is tantamount to treating God like one of the characters in His own story. In Feser’s words, it “is like saying that the author of a novel has to ‘intervene’ in the story at key points, keeping events from going the way they otherwise would in order to make sure that they turn out the way he needs them to for the story to work.” In reality, authors don’t need to intervene into their stories to obtain the outcomes they want, and neither need we suppose that God intervened in the history of life on Earth, so as to guarantee the emergence of human beings.

Feser then argues that things in the world derive their being and causal power from God, just as the characters in a story only exist and alter the course of events within the story because the author of the story wrote it in a way that allows them to do so. For this reason, Feser has no philosophical problem with the notion of Darwinian processes being sufficient to generate life, or biological species such as Homo sapiens. Causal agents possesss whatever powers God wants them to have, and their (secondary) causality is genuine, and perfectly compatible with the (primary) causality of God, their Creator. Just as “it would be absurd to suggest that in a science fiction novel in which such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species, but rather the author of the story who does so and merely made it seem as if Darwinian processes had done it,” so too, “it is absurd to suggest that if God creates a world in which human beings come about by natural selection, He would have to intervene in order to make the Darwinian processes come out the way He wants them to, in which case they would not be truly Darwinian.”

The problem isn’t one of insufficient causal power in Nature; it’s all about information

When I read this passage, I thought, “Aha! Now I see why Professor Feser thinks Intelligent Design proponents have got the wrong end of the stick. Now I see why he thinks we are committed to belief in a tinkering Deity who has to intervene in the natural order in order to change it.” For Feser inadvertently revealed two very interesting things in his thought-provoking post.

The first thing that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed was that he thinks that the difficulty that Intelligent Design proponents have with Darwinian evolution has to do with power – in particular, the causal powers of natural agents. As an Aristotelian-Thomist, Feser sees no difficulty in principle with God granting natural agents whatever causal powers He wishes, so long as they are not powers that only a Creator could possess. Why could not God therefore give mud the power to evolve into microbes, and thence into biological species such as Homo sapiens?

But the problem that Intelligent Design advocates have with this scenario has nothing to do with the powers of causal agents. Rather, it’s all about information: complex specified information, to be precise. By definition, any pattern in Nature that is highly improbable (from a naturalistic perspective) but is nevertheless capable of being described in a few words, instantiates complex specified information (CSI). So the philosophical question we need to address here is not: could God give mud the power to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man, but rather: could God give mud the complex specified information required for it to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man?

The answer to this question, as Edward Feser should be aware from having read Professor Michael Behe’s book, The Edge of Evolution (Free Press, 2007, pp. 238-239), is that Intelligent Design theory is perfectly compatible with such front-loading scenarios. Indeed, Behe argues that God might have fine-tuned the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang, in such a way that life’s subsequent evolution – and presumably that of human beings – was inevitable, without the need for any subsequent acts of God.

A second possibility is that God added complex specified information to the universe at some point (or points) subsequent to the Big Bang – e.g. at the dawn of life, or the Cambrian explosion – thereby guaranteeing the results He intended.

A third possibility is that the universe contains hidden laws, as yet unknown to science, which are very detailed, highly elaborate and specific, unlike the simple laws of physics that we know. On this scenario, complex specified information belongs to the very warp and woof of the universe: it’s a built-in feature, requiring no initial fine-tuning.

Personally, my own inclination is to plump for the second scenario, and say that we live in a cosmos which is made to be manipulated: it’s an inherently incomplete, open system, and the “gaps” are a vital part of Nature, just as the holes are a vital feature of Swiss cheese. I see no reason to believe in the existence of hidden, information-rich laws of the cosmos, especially when all the laws we know are low in information content; moreover, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out in his book, Signature in the Cell, all the scientific evidence we have points against the idea of “biochemical predestination”: simple chemicals do not naturally arrange themselves into complex information-bearing molecules such as DNA. I also think that front-loading the universe at the Big Bang would have required such an incredibly exquisite amount of fine-tuning on God’s part that it would have been much simpler for Him to “inject” complex specified information into the cosmos at a later date, when it was required. (When I say “at a later date”, I mean “later” from our time-bound perspective, of course, as the God of classical theism is timeless.) However, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Complex specified information has to come from somewhere

One thing I’m quite sure of, though: not even God could make a universe without finely-tuned initial conditions and without information-rich laws, that was still capable of generating life without any need for a special act of God (or what Intelligent Design critics derogatorily refer to as “Divine intervention”, “manipulation” or “tinkering”). The reason why this couldn’t happen is that complex specified information doesn’t come from nowhere. It needs a source. And this brings me to the second point that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed in his post: he seems to think that information can just appear in the cosmos wherever God wants it to appear, without God having to perform any specific act that generates it.

This is where the book metaphor leads Feser astray, I believe. The author of a book doesn’t have to specify exactly how the events in his/her story unfold. All stories written by human authors are under-specified, in terms of both the states of affairs they describe – e.g. what’s the color of the house at 6 Privet Drive, next door to Harry Potter’s house? – and in terms of the processes occurring within the story – e.g. how exactly do magic wands do their work in Harry Potter? What law is involved? J. K. Rowling doesn’t tell us these things, and I don’t think most of her readers care, anyway.

But here’s the thing: God can’t afford to be vague about such matters. He’s not just writing a story; He’s making a world. Everything that He brings about in this world, He has to specify in some way: what happens, and how does it happen?

One way in which God could bring about a result He desires is by specifying the initial conditions in sufficient detail, such that the result is guaranteed to arise, given the ordinary course of events.

A second way for God to bring about a result He wants is for Him to specify the exact processes generating the result, in such detail that its subsequent production is bound to occur. (On this scenario, God brings about His desired effect through the operation of deterministic laws.)

A third way for God to produce a desired effect is for Him to make use of processes that do not infallibly yield a set result – i.e. probabilistic occurrences, which take place in accordance with indeterministic laws, and which involve a certain element of what we call randomness. In this case, God would not only have to specify the probabilistic processes He intends to make use of, but also specify the particular outcome He desires these processes to generate. (This could be accomplished by God without Him having to bias the probabilities of the processes in any way: all that is needed is top-down causation, which leaves the micro-level probabilistic processes intact but imposes an additional macro-level constraint on the outcome. For a description of how this would work, see my recent post, Is free will dead?)

Finally, God may refuse to specify any natural process or set of initial conditions that could help to generate the result He desires, and instead, simply specify the precise spatio-temporal point in the history of the cosmos.at which the result will occur. That’s what we call an act of God, and in such a case, the result is said to be brought about purely by God’s will, which acts as an immediate efficient cause generating the effect.

But whatever the way in which God chooses to bring about the result He desires, He must make a choice. He cannot simply specify the effect He desires, without specifying its cause – whether it be His Will acting immediately on Nature to bring about a desired effect, or some natural process and/or set of conditions operating in a manner that tends to generate the effect. Whatever God does, God has to do somehow.

But couldn’t God make evolution occur as a result of a probabilistic process?

Let’s go back to the third way available to God for generating a desired result: namely, working through probabilistic processes. What does Intelligent Design theory have to say about this Divine modus operandi? Basically, what it says is that it is impossible for God to remain hidden, if He chooses this way of acting, and if the desired effect is both improbable (in the normal course of events) and capable of being described very briefly – in other words, rich in complex specified information. For even if the micro-level probabilities are in no way affected by His agency, the macro-level effect constitutes a pattern in Nature which we can recognize as the work of an intelligent agent, since it is rich in CSI.

Professor Feser, working from his authorial metaphor for God, seems to have overlooked this point. The human author of a story can simply write: “Y occurred, as a freakish but statistically possible result of process X.” Here, the author simply specifies the result he/she intends (effect Y) and the process responsible (probabilistic process X, which, as luck would have it, produced Y). Because the effect in the story (Y) is both the result of a natural process (X) occurring in the story, and the result (on a higher level) of the author’s will, it appears that nothing more needs to be said. Feser seems to think that the same holds true for effects brought about by God, working through probabilistic processes: they are both the work of Nature and the work of God. Hence, he believes, nothing prevents God from producing life by a Darwinistic process, if He so chooses.

Not so fast, say Intelligent Design proponents. Probabilistic processes have no inherent tendency to generate outcomes that can be concisely described in language. If an outcome that can be described in a very concise manner is generated by a probabilistic process, and if the likelihood of the outcome is sufficiently low, then it is simply wrong to put this down to the work of Nature. The real work here is done by God, the Intelligent Agent Who specified the outcome in question. It’s fundamentally wrong to give any credit to the natural probabilistic process for the result obtained, in a case like this: for even if God works through such a process, the process itself has no tendency to aim for concisely describable outcomes. God-guided evolution is therefore by definition non-Darwinian. Contrary to Feser, it is not absurd for Intelligent Design proponents to argue that when “such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species,” since Darwinian processes are inherently incapable of generating large amounts of complex specific information, and when we trace the evolution of any species back far enough, we will find that large amounts of complex specific information had to be generated.

Putting it another way: not even God could make an unintelligent natural process with a built-in tendency to hone in on outcomes having a short verbal description. Such a feat is logically impossible, because it would be tantamount to making an unintelligent process capable of making linguistic choices – which is absurd, because language is a hallmark of intelligent agents. Not even God can accomplish that which is logically imposible.

I hope Professor Feser now recognizes what the real point at issue is between Darwinism and Intelligent Design theory. I hope he also realizes that Intelligent Design is not committed to an anthropomorphic Deity, or to any particular Divine modus operandi. ID proponents are well aware of the distinction between primary and secondary causality; we just don’t think it’s very useful in addressing the problem of where the complex specified information in Nature came from. The problem here is not one of finding a primary (or secondary) cause that can generate the information, but rather one of finding an intelligent agent that can do so. Lastly, ID proponents do not think of God as a “tinkerer who cleverly intervenes in a natural order that could in principle have carried on without him,” for the simple reason that Intelligent Design is a scientific program concerned with the detection of patterns in Nature that are the result of intelligent agency, and not a metaphysical program concerned with the being of Nature as such. Metaphysical arguments that Nature depends for its being on God are all well and good, but they’re not scientific arguments as such. For this reason, these metaphysical arguments fall outside the province of Intelligent Design, although they are highly regarded by some ID proponents.

Is Variation Random?

Finally, I’d like to challenge the claim made by Professor Rosenberg and other Darwinists that biological variation is random. Stephen Talbott has skilfully dismantled this claim in a highly original article in The New Atlantis, entitled, Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness. Talbott takes aim at the oft-heard claim, popularized by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, that Nature operates with no purpose in mind, and that evolution is the outcome of random variation, culled by the non-random but mindless mechanism of natural selection. Talbott’s scientific arguments against Dawkins and Dennett are devastating, and he makes a convincing scientific case that mutation is anything but random in real life; that the genomes of organisms respond to environmental changes in a highly co-ordinated and purposeful fashion; and that even the most minimal definition of random variation – i.e. the commonly held view that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be – crumbles upon inspection, as the whole concept of “usefulness” or “fitness” turns out to be irretrievably obscure. At the end of his article, Talbott summarizes his case:

Here, then, is what the advocates of evolutionary mindlessness and meaninglessness would have us overlook. We must overlook, first of all, the fact that organisms are masterful participants in, and revisers of, their own genomes, taking a leading position in the most intricate, subtle, and intentional genomic “dance” one could possibly imagine. And then we must overlook the way the organism responds intelligently, and in accord with its own purposes, to whatever it encounters in its environment, including the environment of its own body, and including what we may prefer to view as “accidents.” Then, too, we are asked to ignore not only the living, reproducing creatures whose intensely directed lives provide the only basis we have ever known for the dynamic processes of evolution, but also all the meaning of the larger environment in which these creatures participate — an environment compounded of all the infinitely complex ecological interactions that play out in significant balances, imbalances, competition, cooperation, symbioses, and all the rest, yielding the marvelously varied and interwoven living communities we find in savannah and rainforest, desert and meadow, stream and ocean, mountain and valley. And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science.

Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see — somewhere — blind, mindless, random, purposeless automatisms at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change….

This “something random” … is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.

My response to Rosenberg

I would like to briefly respond to Professor Rosenberg’s argument that belief in God is incompatible with Darwinism. He is right about one thing: not even God can use randomness to bring about highly specific results, without “injecting” the complex specified information that guarantees the production of the result in question. If you’re a thoroughgoing Darwinist who believes that evolutionary variation is inherently random and that Nature is a closed system, then there’s no way for God to do His work. However, on an empirical level, I see no reason to believe that evolutionary variation is inherently random: Talbott’s article, from which I quoted above, cites evidence that the effects of environmental change on an organism’s genome are highly co-ordinated by the organism itself. What’s more, recent scientific evidence that even the multiverse must have had a beginning, and that even the multiverse must have been exquisitely fine-tuned, points very strongly to the fact that Nature is not a closed system. (See my article, Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning”, which also contains links to my recent posts on cosmological fine-tuning.) And of course, Professor Feser has done an excellent job of expounding the metaphysical arguments showing that Nature is not self-sufficient, but requires a Cause.

Comments
Eigenstate (8.1.1.2.2): Thanks for the frank exchange. I'm not sure where to start. You write throughout your post as if there is some kind of war between ID and something you call "science." This is the "warfare view" that pits "science" against "religion," with the new twist that ID is now cast as the representative of "religion." The warfare view of science and religion has been discredited among serious historians of science for decades. It survives only in popular culture and among those academics and scientists who read no history. Beyond this general point, warfare against science is a complete misrepresentation of the intentions of all the intellectually serious ID people. ID's whole point is the ID/Darwinism conflict must be understood as science vs. science, not science vs. religion. What we have is two different groups of scientists and admirers of science, each interpreting nature differently. We have Dawkins, telling us that design in biological systems is only apparent design, and Behe, telling us it is real design. Both have Ph.D.s. Both have written dozens of peer-reviewed papers and/or scientific books. Both teach/have taught at secular universities (not Bible colleges or denominational colleges). What we have is two scientists who disagree about the implications of protein science, of irreducibly complex systems, etc. Behe never appeals to the Bible in any of his arguments; he cites only scientific literature. You can agree or disagree with Behe, but you can't honestly find "science versus religion" in his writing. The same is true of design proponents such as Sternberg and Denton. There is no appeal to the Bible or theology in any of their writings. They write articles for peer-reviewed journals, and they study the scientific literature, and they criticize existing evolutionary theory on scientific grounds. The same is true of Axe, Gauger and others. There is no attack upon science from the point of view of religion here. There is only an attack on the neo-Darwinian conception of evolutionary change. This is true even of the ID proponents who are also creationists. Dembski and Wells, in their Design of Life book, make zero use of the Bible or the theological tradition. Meyer does not argue from the Bible in Signature in the Cell. Wells does not argue from it in his new book on junk DNA. I've never seen Nelson dismiss a scientific argument on the basis of the Bible. In short, I know of no place where ID makes any "religious" argument against "science." I don't know what to make of some of your remarks about politeness and respect. I see that you agree with me that politeness is a good thing in itself. You also make a point, which I accept, that politeness is no substitute for good science, good reasoning, etc. Who could disagree with that? But other parts of what you are saying, I'm having trouble following. Let me clarify my position: I wasn't saying that anyone should seek being respected by UD commenters as a valuable goal in itself. I wasn't suggesting that they should sacrifice self-respect in order to be thought of highly. I was saying: (1) You can firmly disagree with ID without being rude, obnoxious, stubborn, dogmatic, manipulative, deliberately misrepresenting people's arguments, refusing to accept corrections when direct quotations stare you in the face, etc. Physicist Stephen Barr and evolutionary biologist H. Allen Orr disagree with ID, and they are gentlemen. Myers and Shallit and Moran disagree with ID, and they are Neanderthals. (I wouldn't put Matzke in the same group as the Neanderthals. Matzke is generally polite. But he is incredibly stubborn and closed-minded when it comes to ID.) (2) It isn't important to gain the respect of *everyone* in the opposing camp; it is important to gain the respect of *the most moderate and thoughtful members* of the opposing camp -- if you hope to ever persuade them to your point of view. If *those* people think you are rude, or vulgar, or ideological, or stubborn, or condescending, or unfair in argument, or intellectually dishonest, or too proud to ever grant a point to them, you have lost the only potential converts that you have. So, for example, I couldn't care less if I have the respect of Shallit or Myers; they are thugs, and I don't care what thugs think of me. But I would be very glad to have the respect of H. Allen Orr or Stephen Barr or John Polkinghorne or any of the more thoughtful and reflective champions of Darwinian ideas. Precisely because they are thoughtful, there is hope of winning them over to ID, or at least of showing them that ID is a serious intellectual position, not religious fundamentalism. I'm not really interested in going over all the vagaries of the disputes of the various UD commenters you've mentioned. I don't know the history of when each of them was banned, disciplined, put on moderation, etc. If you are harking back to four or five years ago, remember that the two head honchos who did most of the bannings back then are no longer here. I don't think Myers has any redeeming qualities. I think he is an embarrassment to his university and that his manners and his ideological orientation to knowledge disgrace the very title Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) He represents the vulgarization of the American professoriate more than anyone else I can think of, and his occupation of a professor's chair is evidence of the decline of Western Civilization. If he is one of your role models for evolution/ID discussion, you and I are not going to see eye to eye.Timaeus
February 2, 2012
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I'm not sure why you keep telling me you won't respond, because you mostly do :) I do find your manner rather odd.
Lenski’s work shows only the most meager results, and nothing that disproves Behe. Behe has followed Lenski’s work all along, and the work of Lenski’s students, and has commented on it regularly. Follow the Discovery web site, and this one, and search on Behe.
Well, I completely disagree. And yes, I have read some of Behe's counter-rebuttals and found them quite inadequate.
All existing computer simulations of evolution abstract in one or more important ways from real-world situations.
That is irrelevant. We were talking about theory. AVIDA directly falsfies Behe's theory. If Behe's theory were correct, it should apply in computer models as well as in nature. It doesn't.
See the discussion of Doug Axe et al. in the article on the Stylus genome in the recent issue of Biocomplexity. (Ironically, those trying the hardest to make the simulations more like real-world biology are the ID proponents!)
From as much as I've seen this does not appear to be true.
I’m unimpressed by computer models of evolution generally, and do not accept any conclusions drawn from them as valid. They merely provide an excuse for biologists to avoid describing in detail how the evolutionary process occurs in the real world. They mask a sea of ignorance about developmental processes, the function of the unaccounted-for DNA, selectable intermediate forms, etc., under the pretense of doing high-tech, rigorous science loaded up with the jargon of computer science.
And that is a blatant moving of goalposts. Behe laid out a theory. That theory was falsified by Lenski. To then come back and say, oh well, I really meant that you couldn't account for something like a bacterial flagellum, is moving the goalposts. We don't know whether a bacterial flagellum could have evolved or not, but Behe's argument that it couldn't has been falsified. See my response to vjtorley above for more details.
When Darwinists use the phrase “evolutionary algorithm,” which sounds so technical, so mathematical, and so professional, those without much knowledge of computer science retreat in fear and defer to the jargon-user, and the jargon-user’s biological ignorance about how evolution actually occurs goes undetected.
Well, that's a silly reaction. It's actually a dead simple algorithm, and you can demonstrate it in primary school sunflower-growing experiments.
But when asked to put into English prose a hypothetical chain of evolutionary intermediates and describe the molecular processes which could have produced each one, the Darwinists, unable to retreat behind weighty-sounding tech-talk, again and again reveal that the Emperor has no clothes.
Again, goalpost moving. The algorithm is simple. It is demosntrably extremely powerful (which is why it is used so widely to solve engineering problems, and why cognitive scientists use it to model learning, indeed to actually analyse patterns in data). It's not that mathematical, but if you need an explanation, I'm sure I can give you one in lay language. But to jump from there to the issue of how a specific organism or feature evolved is massive goal-post moving. We do not claim to know how a single feature evolved. We cannot know, because to know that you would have to know not only every actual sequence change (as opposed to proposing one) but every environment in which the population inhabited during the relevant evolutionary period. Nonetheless, as you must know, Pallen and Matske put forward a nice theory for the evolution of the flagellum. I'm not sure if it generated any testable hypotheses (Nick will weigh in I hope, if he is around) or whether they have been tested. But it was a nice model.
When I referred to “new organism” I was not talking about OOL. A whale is a “new organism” in comparison with its putative artiodactyl ancestor.
Not really. Or rather, to assert so is to beg the question. The evidence instead suggests that there are no "new organisms" (or perhaps, if Margulis and/or Shapiro are right, very occasional big leaps), but rather that every organism is the offspring of a very similar parent. Obviously you may disagree, but you can't really expect evolutionary theory to account for something that it posits did not occur!
I say that no biologist living can explain how this new organism was produced by Darwinian means.
Of course not. Rather, they explain that the "new organism" was no such thing.
And I don’t mean they are missing a few steps. I mean they are missing virtually all the steps, at both the molecular and physiological levels.
Well, not really, although clearly for any given transition the data is very much a sampling. But what we have is enough to place organisms on a clear nested hierarchy, and the molecular evidence has remarkable concordance with the morphological evidence, with a few extremely interesting and informative exceptions.
Half a dozen fossils that look as if they might be intermediate forms is peanuts compared to the number of transitional forms that would be needed, and in any case no causal story for the transitions at the molecular level accompanies the fossils.
Well, I can only suggest you read up a bit on palaeontology. For a start, all forms are "intermediate" in the sense you seem to be using of the term. Including you.
Your comments on architecture and design show that we mean very different things by both architecture and design. I’ve known architects and they sound nothing at all like you. They show a balance between mathematical/technical intelligence and intuitive/aesthetic intelligence that is missing in your way of reasoning.
Well, actually I think you are wrong. Obviously that is just my opinion, but there it is. I don't claim to be anything special, as I've said, but I have reasonably good mathematical and technical intelligence (I was actually rather good at the structural engineering side), and I'm a fairly creative/intuitive artist, I think. Also scientist. That seems to be my strength, I'd say. I'm quite good at looking at things lots of ways round, and thinking up novel ways of analysing data, or indeed hypotheses. But whatever. You are entitled to your impression, of course. My suspicion, though, is that you are misled by your own preconceptions.
As for my last remark, well, you asked for it. You called Behe’s book “silly.” With all due respect for your generally high intelligence, I honestly think that you are incapable of writing an extended refutation of Behe’s book that would withstand examination from a broad scientific audience (as opposed to the internet subculture of ID/evolution debaters). That’s my challenge. Take it or leave it. I’m indifferent as to what you do.
Of course I'm not capable of it. I'm no biochemist. However, I do understand evolutionary algorithms, and I'm as capable as anyone at seeing a logical flaw in an argument. But I'm perfectly happy to leave it to those far more expert than me to do the debunking. They are not in short supply.
I’m sure you feel the urge to do your tribal duty and rush to the defense of Lenski and of computer modelling of evolution. Do as you please; I won’t be responding. Not until that extended refutation of Behe appears in print.
Now, really, Timaeus, this is too much. "Tribal duty" indeed. harrumph. That is just about the rudest thing anyone has ever said to me, and goes a long way to explaining why you think so little of my architectural abilities. If you are dismissing my posts as the outpourings of a "tribalist" then I'm not sure why you are even bothering to respond to them. I have my faults, but tribalism isn't one of them. Again, I can't prove it, but you've got me wrong. More seriously, jumping to the conclusion that those who disagree with you are merely defending their "tribe" is a sure way to ensure that you don't actually learn anything. I don't treat other people that way, and I don't expect to be treated that way. So perhaps this time you really had better not respond. If you do, I shall have a large gin before I click on the link. *in high dudgeon* LizzieElizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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Elizabeth: Lenski's work shows only the most meager results, and nothing that disproves Behe. Behe has followed Lenski's work all along, and the work of Lenski's students, and has commented on it regularly. Follow the Discovery web site, and this one, and search on Behe. All existing computer simulations of evolution abstract in one or more important ways from real-world situations. See the discussion of Doug Axe et al. in the article on the Stylus genome in the recent issue of Biocomplexity. (Ironically, those trying the hardest to make the simulations more like real-world biology are the ID proponents!) I'm unimpressed by computer models of evolution generally, and do not accept any conclusions drawn from them as valid. They merely provide an excuse for biologists to avoid describing in detail how the evolutionary process occurs in the real world. They mask a sea of ignorance about developmental processes, the function of the unaccounted-for DNA, selectable intermediate forms, etc., under the pretense of doing high-tech, rigorous science loaded up with the jargon of computer science. When Darwinists use the phrase "evolutionary algorithm," which sounds so technical, so mathematical, and so professional, those without much knowledge of computer science retreat in fear and defer to the jargon-user, and the jargon-user's biological ignorance about how evolution actually occurs goes undetected. But when asked to put into English prose a hypothetical chain of evolutionary intermediates and describe the molecular processes which could have produced each one, the Darwinists, unable to retreat behind weighty-sounding tech-talk, again and again reveal that the Emperor has no clothes. When I referred to "new organism" I was not talking about OOL. A whale is a "new organism" in comparison with its putative artiodactyl ancestor. I say that no biologist living can explain how this new organism was produced by Darwinian means. And I don't mean they are missing a few steps. I mean they are missing virtually all the steps, at both the molecular and physiological levels. Half a dozen fossils that look as if they might be intermediate forms is peanuts compared to the number of transitional forms that would be needed, and in any case no causal story for the transitions at the molecular level accompanies the fossils. Your comments on architecture and design show that we mean very different things by both architecture and design. I've known architects and they sound nothing at all like you. They show a balance between mathematical/technical intelligence and intuitive/aesthetic intelligence that is missing in your way of reasoning. As for my last remark, well, you asked for it. You called Behe's book "silly." With all due respect for your generally high intelligence, I honestly think that you are incapable of writing an extended refutation of Behe's book that would withstand examination from a broad scientific audience (as opposed to the internet subculture of ID/evolution debaters). That's my challenge. Take it or leave it. I'm indifferent as to what you do. I'm sure you feel the urge to do your tribal duty and rush to the defense of Lenski and of computer modelling of evolution. Do as you please; I won't be responding. Not until that extended refutation of Behe appears in print. Adieu.Timaeus
February 2, 2012
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Yes the Schmidt et al paper is quite interesting, although it renders Sheldrake something of a clock striking thirteen. Someone who repeats as well-established fact something that is clearly not replicated by conscientious researchers (e.g. his claim that telepathy is very common) doesn't incline me to take anything he says without a very large pinch of salt. Schmidt et al found one anomaly though. This could be interesting. It could also be a fraud, and it could also be a result of non-blinding. The way forward would be to find people who do seem to be outliers and invite them to repeat the performance under conditions set out by people without any vested interest in their success (James Randi, for instance). As I said, I don't rule out the possibility that something interesting is going on, but my priors are low, and the possibilities for false positives, huge.
Many critics have found Sheldrake’s hypothesis of morphogenetic fields rather nebulous. I don’t think that’s altogether fair: Newton famously feigned no hypotheses about how gravity worked.
And nobody yet knows. It's just a law, not a theory.
A better criticism would be that the notion of a morphogenetic field needs to be described mathematically before it can be said to qualify as a bona fide formal cause of the kind that scientists can investigate.
Absolutely, it needs to be formulated as a predictive law, like gravity, and tested against data. There is no law, and no test. Sheldrake hand waves.
By the way, Ken Wilber has an interesting article on Sheldrake’s views, entitled, Sheldrake’s theory of morphogenesis .
Well, again, I'd have more faith in Wilber if he didn't start off with a completely untrue set of statements! He writes:
Perhaps the most persistent problem in developmental biology concerns morphogenesis, or the coming into being of form, because the actual form of an organism—its pattern, its shape, its spatiotemporal order—cannot be predicted or even accounted for in terms of its constituent material parts. To give the simplest example: a protein is a long chain of molecules that, based on the properties of the molecules themselves, could easily fold into any number of energetically equivalent forms, and yet, in living systems, they are always found folded in only one way. That is, one form is always selected from numerous equivalent possibilities, and yet, on the basis of mass and energy considerations, no one form should be preferable to any other. The same puzzle is found, a fortiori, in larger and more complex organic systems. No known physical laws can account for the form these systems take. So what does account for it?
I take it that developmental cell biology isn't his subject :)Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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Scott,
It’s not just any particular mapping that natural laws do not explain. It is the very concept of relating a symbol to a reality.
Relating symbols to referents is something that brains do. You've told me that you agree that brains operate according to physical law. If so, then in what sense does physical law fail to explain the mapping?champignon
February 2, 2012
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Scott, Your inability to admit error is leading you further into absurdity. You now claim that the sort order of a symbol is its meaning. To see how ridiculous that is, consider an imaginary dialogue between us:
champignon: Scott, here is a list of words: dog, aardvark, cat. Please sort them into alphabetical order. Scott: OK. Aardvark, cat, dog. champignon: Thank you. What is the meaning of 'cat'? Scott: It comes before 'dog'. champignon: No, I asked for the meaning of cat. Scott: I told you. It comes before dog. That's its meaning. champignon: WTF???
Sort order and meaning are two different things. Your statement...
Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them.
...is just wrong.
To know that 5 [is less than] 9 [is less than] king is to ‘have awareness of the meaning of the symbols’ unless you are predisposed to claw at any possible hair-splitting semantic flaw. [bracketed phrases needed because of a WordPress bug]
For the nth time, the program does not need to know that it is looking at a 5 or a 9 or a king. It doesn't need to know that 5 is less than 9 which is less than a king. All it needs to know is that a card that matches pattern X (which happens to be an image of the 5 of hearts) goes before a card that matches pattern Y (which happens to be an image of the king of hearts). It doesn't understand that the numeral 5 represents the number 5, it doesn't recognize the club symbol. Indeed, it doesn't even know that there are symbols on the cards at all. How can it depend on an "awareness of the meaning of the symbols" if it doesn't even know that there are symbols on the cards?champignon
February 2, 2012
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On the other hand, you seem to be arguing that when a brain picks an arbitrary mapping of symbols to referents, this somehow can’t be explained by physical law.
It's not just any particular mapping that natural laws do not explain. It is the very concept of relating a symbol to a reality. It is abstraction. It's not that it is impossible for natural law to do so. I can't declare anything absolutely impossible. (Have I used the word? I don't recall. I don't care.) But every abstraction or symbolic code used to functionally represent a physical entity (a functional entity, at that) for which the origin is known is the result of both purpose and forethought - the plan to store information distinctly from what it represents for later use. There are no known natural laws that behave in such a manner. Neither are any hypothesized. While insisting that natural laws have done such things, no one has even attempted to speculate on how they might have from any closer than 10,000 feet. The single most compelling reason to believe that it has ever happened is that perhaps someone told you that it did. That's it. If you would have me set aside the observation that, with the exception of one of unknown origin, such arrangements only appear by intent, with what will I replace it? With something never known to have happened and not even an idea as to how it could or would have? Designed or not, biological origins are not observable to us. The only observations available to us indicate design. On the other side we have a claim which is supported by not a single observation since the beginning of recorded history. There is admittedly not a whole lot of clarity or detail on either side of the scale. But it is something weighed against nothing. What would you place on the other side of the scale?ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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Wrong, wrong, wrong- Thajt beach does not fit any example of CSI and there aren’t any examples in geology with CSI. You’ll just say anything.
Well, let's see your calcs, Joe. I might have a shot at an approximate answer myself.Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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No, the theoretical problem not only hasn’t been disposed of, it hasn’t even been scratched. If you are referring to Ken Miller’s desperate remarks about the flagellum, they are based on a misunderstanding of Behe’s argument (which Behe has repeatedly corrected), and in any case they are entirely inadequate.
No, I'm referring to a great deal of work that shows that "irreducibly complex" features can evolve by Darwinian (in my sense of the word) mechanisms, and by "irreducibly complex" pathways, the most notable being Lenski's AVIDA studies.
As for your last paragraph, Behe never argued that ‘the event did not occur.’ (You’re confusing Behe with creationists.)
I meant the series of putative Darwinian intermediates.
He argues that it could not have occurred through Darwinian mechanisms [as he defines them] alone, and that design would be required as a genuine causal factor. (And this where your background in architecture stunningly fails to show up in your writing here; someone trained in architecture, of all people, might be expected to be sensitive to the very strong hints of design in biological systems. But you argue exactly as the design-blind population geneticists do.)
On the contrary, it is because I know quite a lot about design processes that I would say I understand how natural non-linear stochastic systems are capable designers. They work very much as we do, indeed, our brains are arguably natural non-linear stochastic design systems, with one big extra trick, which is forward modelling. It means we can take shortcuts, and make different kinds of errors.
The theoretical problem has not been overcome until a description has been provided regarding how a strikingly new organ, system, or organism could have been built. This requires proposing a series of hypothetical intermediates and giving a description of their genomes and their form and physiology, and showing how they would be likely to survive and thrive under selection.
I agree that Darwinian evolution does not account for a "new organism". That is an OOL question. However, there are plenty of testable (and tested) hypotheses about how what you call "new" organs or systems" can arise, some of them very specific. We will never know for sure, however, for any one organism, because we simply do not have the data, and never will. What we can do instead is to model scenarios and generate more testable hypotheses. Meantime, it remains invalid to infer "Intelligent Designer" in lieu of a detailed natural explanation.
Population genetics equations tell us absolutely nothing at all about this, and it useless to keep waving them in ID people’s faces. Population genetics tells us how genes are spread throughout a population; it tells us nothing about how critters are built from genetic information and extra-genetic factors.
You are right that population genetics tells us nothing about how a phenotype relates to a genotype. For that you need other branches of biology, specifically developmental molecular biology. They are not lacking, and the explosion of GWAS has told us a great deal already.
If we ever do learn how a bacterium without a flagellum could evolve into a bacterium with one, it won’t be the population geneticists who show us how.
You are correct, although drift is an important aspect of the process. But you are right. You need biochemists and molecular biologists.
I won’t respond to you again about Behe, until you publish a formal refutation of his arguments in a scientific journal or high-end generalist journal or a book. I want to see your reputation as a scientist put on the line, as Behe has put his on the line.
Oh for goodness' sake.Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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Scott, I wrote:
In other words, if thinking is a physical process, then the difference between a person who uses one symbol-to-referent mapping and a person who uses a different mapping is simply a difference in brain states. Neither person’s brain states violate the laws of physics; they’re both compatible with natural law.
You replied:
I agree that all of it operates within natural law and that none of it violates any laws of physics. Otherwise I would have to think that something bizarre and supernatural occurs every time I imagine a shopping list, write it down, and then go to the store and retrieve the physical items corresponding to my abstraction.
Good. Another point of agreement.
You are missing the enormous difference between saying that something is compatible with natural law and that it can be explained by it.
Here's where you lose me. On the one hand, you acknowledge that our brains operate strictly according to physical law. On the other hand, you seem to be arguing that when a brain picks an arbitrary mapping of symbols to referents, this somehow can't be explained by physical law. Could you elaborate on what you're claiming? Elsewhere you have pointed out that the laws of nature don't mandate any single symbol-to-referent mapping. Other mappings are perfectly allowable under natural law. I agree wholeheartedly. But you seem to be arguing that if the laws of nature don't mandate a single mapping, then they can't explain any particular mapping.champignon
February 2, 2012
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Champignon, You're calling attention to my reference to the 'meaning' of the cards in a manner that completely misses the point changes absolutely nothing.
Of course a program needs to know the sort order in order to sort cards correctly. That’s practically a tautology. But the program does not need to know the meaning of the symbols on the cards in order to sort them.
When I spoke of the 'meaning' of the cards, their relative sort order is exactly what I was referring to. In the context of the discussion I don't know what other meaning there is that we could be referring to. I don't mind clarifying myself if I choose words carelessly and create confusion. But in this case it's rather obvious that you get the message that the sort order must be specified. That's the entire material point. If you didn't understand what I was saying at all, fine. But you are repeating the message back to me, clearly, while trifling over my choice of words. How does what you're saying change anything material to what I said? It doesn't. The relative sort order between a king and a jack and a nine is meaning. It is information that is assigned to the card, not emergent from it. Therefore it follows that nothing can sort the cards without having the outcome of the comparison of any one card to any other card specified for it in some way. Let's compare that to my very first statement over which you have quibbled.
Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them. Natural laws can affect rocks of varying sizes but cannot act upon abstract symbols without some intentional input.
To know that 5 < 9 < king is to 'have awareness of the meaning of the symbols' unless you are predisposed to claw at any possible hair-splitting semantic flaw. Frankly I doubt that anyone not inclined to so nitpick had the slightest trouble understanding the statement as written the very first time. Now the point has been stated yet again. How do you propose that anything might sort playing cards without receiving some information relating the image upon it to its sort order? I've followed through in this discussion, but what a waste of time. I actually find the substance of the debate interesting, so I'd rather not abandon it and trifle over the meaning of words that were pretty clear to start with. Such unnecessary trifling only raises an obstacle to meaningful debate. Why would I even attempt to connect this point to yet another knowing that you will ignore the content and feign a lack of comprehension? If drowning out the discussion was your objective, you have succeeded. At this point I'd rather let its bloated corpse float to the surface and drift away.ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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Elizabeth (15.1.1.1.3): No, the theoretical problem not only hasn't been disposed of, it hasn't even been scratched. If you are referring to Ken Miller's desperate remarks about the flagellum, they are based on a misunderstanding of Behe's argument (which Behe has repeatedly corrected), and in any case they are entirely inadequate. As for your last paragraph, Behe never argued that 'the event did not occur.' (You're confusing Behe with creationists.) He argues that it could not have occurred through Darwinian mechanisms [as he defines them] alone, and that design would be required as a genuine causal factor. (And this where your background in architecture stunningly fails to show up in your writing here; someone trained in architecture, of all people, might be expected to be sensitive to the very strong hints of design in biological systems. But you argue exactly as the design-blind population geneticists do.) The theoretical problem has not been overcome until a description has been provided regarding how a strikingly new organ, system, or organism could have been built. This requires proposing a series of hypothetical intermediates and giving a description of their genomes and their form and physiology, and showing how they would be likely to survive and thrive under selection. Population genetics equations tell us absolutely nothing at all about this, and it useless to keep waving them in ID people's faces. Population genetics tells us how genes are spread throughout a population; it tells us nothing about how critters are built from genetic information and extra-genetic factors. If we ever do learn how a bacterium without a flagellum could evolve into a bacterium with one, it won't be the population geneticists who show us how. I won't respond to you again about Behe, until you publish a formal refutation of his arguments in a scientific journal or high-end generalist journal or a book. I want to see your reputation as a scientist put on the line, as Behe has put his on the line. TimTimaeus
February 2, 2012
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If a pattern has CSI (and although I haven’t calculated it, I’m fairly confident that Chesil Beach would come into the rejection region of Dembski’s null distribution), we know that it was not generated by a process that generates a flat distribution of patterns, i.e. in which all patterns are equiprobable (and few processes do). But that does NOT tell you the thing was created by intelligence. We all agree that Chesil Beach wasn’t, and indeed, there are many patterns in geology that exhibit vast amounts of CSI by Dembski’s metric, and no-one argues that they are intelligently designed (except in a remotely deist sort of way).
Wrong, wrong, wrong- Thajt beach does not fit any example of CSI and there aren't any examples in geology with CSI. You'll just say anything.
But then we are back to all the original problems with Explanatory Filter.
the only "problem" with the EF would be the user.
The EF tried to separate Chance from Necessity,
that is false. After the first node necessity and chance are together.
We know that non-linear natural processes (stochastic or non-stochastic) can produce vastly complex patterns that have all the appearance of design.
Evidence please. And again as for the OoL well that is DIRCTLY linked to any subsequent evolution- if living organisms were designed then they were designed to evolve. Only if living organisms arose from non-living matter via stochastic processes would we infer evolution was entirely stochastic.Joe
February 2, 2012
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Scott,
The illustration of the cards is quite simple and was not meant to be a 20-post diversion into hair-splitting over words.
It's not "hair-splitting over words" when the word choice is crucial to the meaning of the sentence and the meaning of the sentence is crucial to the argument being made. Take responsibility for what you write, Scott.champignon
February 2, 2012
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Scott:
You’re absolutely correct. Greater than and less than are just shorthand for the result of a comparison. It does not literally mean that the king is greater than the nine. It means that it is determined as having a higher sort order.
Good. Let's see if we can build on this point of agreement.
But in real life, how do you think that programmers implement this? By specifying a set of rules for the comparison of every card to every other card?
No, of course not. But the point of this discussion isn't to identify the best card-sorting implementation, it's to determine whether your claim is correct: that sorting cannot be done without reference to meaning.
In most cases, however, this would be accomplished by assigning a numerical value to the card. (It depends entirely on the application.) Jack = 11, Queen = 12, and so forth. And then they are sorted by their numerical values.
An enumerated type would be even better, with the compiler doing the card-to-number mappings.
In either case the computer is provided with the sort order.
Yes, we agree on that.
The very simple point I’m arguing against is your assertion that a computer can sort cards without some reference to the symbolic meanings given them. It doesn’t matter if the computer calls it a King or assigns an arbitrary identifier to it. It cannot sort the cards without some form of input determining what order they should go in, because the sort order of the cards is not an emergent property of the cards.
This is the crux of the dispute, Scott, so please pay close attention. You are conflating meaning with sort order. Of course a program needs to know the sort order in order to sort cards correctly. That's practically a tautology. But the program does not need to know the meaning of the symbols on the cards in order to sort them. As I explained earlier:
Not only does the program not need to use the comparison operators, it also does not need to designate cards as King or Jack or 7. All it needs to do is compare card images, look for the best match, and then apply the kind of sorting algorithm you described. For example, if one card matches pattern X, which happens to be an image of the King of Clubs, and another card matches pattern Y, which happens to be an image of the 9 of Clubs, then the card that matches pattern Y goes in front of the card that matches pattern X. Similar logic applies for every possible card pairing. [Note that the sort order is specified: cards matching pattern Y go in front of cards matching pattern X. But the meaning of the symbols in patterns X and Y is not specified, and it doesn't need to be.] Note that the program is not “aware” that it’s looking at an image of a card, that the card has symbols on it, that the meaning of one of the symbols is “King”, or that “King” comes after “9?. Yet it still sorts the cards into the correct order, which according to you should be impossible...
Here's another example to help you see this. Imagine that a Martian comes to Earth and hires you to implement a card-sorting system for him. He gives you the full set of symbols that can appear on the cards, and he specifies the order into which those symbols should be sorted, but he doesn't tell you what the symbols represent. They could be numbers, letters, Martian UPC codes, whatever. He gives you the sort order ("the squiggle with the horizontal line through it goes before the circle with the dot underneath it", for example), but he doesn't explain the significance of the sort order. Is the squiggle less than the circle, or greater than it? You don't know. In fact, you don't even know that they are numbers. They could be symbols for the successive monarchs of the Fluborgian dynasty, arranged chronologically. The sort order could even be meaningless -- just an arbitrary convention that the Martians follow. Yet you can implement the sorting system, even though you (and your program) are clueless about the meanings of the symbols and the significance of the sort order. That is why I take issue with your claim:
The very simple point I’m arguing against is your assertion that a computer can sort cards without some reference to the symbolic meanings given them.
The take-home message: Sorting can be done purely syntactically, without any reference to meaning.champignon
February 2, 2012
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It's "complex" in Dembski's sense, also "specified" in Dembski's sense, so it has CSI. So Dembski's metric doesn't work.Elizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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And then, confronted with the stark reality that people with no experience whatsoever do in fact learn to fold proteins, you retreat to the argument that they won’t get any better at it but the GAs they quickly surpassed will.
In your "stark reality" can these people distinguish between a sequence that folds and one that doesn't fold? If you take a sequence known to fold and modify a couple of characters and ask them to fold it, what is likely to happen? If you give them a random sequence, what is likely to happen? These are not rhetorical questions. I don't know the answers, and I'll be happy to concede the point if you provide answers I don't expect.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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You have an odd way of phrasing one assumption within another, as in this case you defy countless examples of intelligent arrangement, including your own writing, which is not achieved by examining every possible sequence.
But that is exactly why I am trying to explain the difference between a language comprised of words and syntax and a language in which each and every utterance is separate and distinct, with no connection to other words or utterances. That is what I mean by a language in which there must be a dictionary entry for every possible sentence and paragraph. It is the claim of some ID advocates that function is comprised of islands, each of which is irreducible and each of which is isolated from other islands. It's as if we claimed Hamlet is a single irreducible entity having no separable components, no grammar, no syntax, no way of being constructed except as a whole. If such were the case, I daresay we would all be mute. As I see language, there are numerous ways of expressing functional ideas, and it is possible to rank expressions as to quality. It is possible to say or write things and to revise and refine them. In short, statements can be evolved and refined. They can be brief, and brief statements can be expanded and extended. They can include superfluous elements that do not block function but which can be eliminated without harming function.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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Thank you for your post. Professor Dembski is well aware of the dilemma you raise:
Right. There’s a “natural biasing factor” [in the case of the distribution of pebbles along Chesil beach - VJT]. And so what if, for organisms there is also a “natural biasing factor”? Which is precisely what Darwinian evolution theory proposes! In other words, you can’t infer intelligent design from CSI without calculating the probability under the null of Darwinian evolution! So Dembski is caught on the horns of a dilemma: either he assumes all sequences are equiprobable under the null, in which case Chesil beach has CSI, or he attempts to calculate the probability distribution of sequences under the null, in which case he has to calculate the non-flat distribution of sequences under all possible “natural” hypotheses, in which case his argument is entirely circular.
In reply, I would like to point out that Professor Dembski is perfectly aware of the argument you raise, and he has already addressed it. As far back as 2003, he wrote, in his paper, Still Spinning Just Fine: A Response to Ken Miller :
This is certainly not a response to the argument I raise. It is a response to Ken Miller's objection to his argument about Irreducible Complexity, which it fails to meet, and in a minute I will go through and show you why. However, my objection to Dembski's 2005 paper: Specification: the Pattern that Signifies Intelligence is much more basic that this. In that paper, Dembski proposes a metric for detecting intelligent design from a given pattern. He does not even mention Irreducible Complexity, although I think he things his metric subsumes it. And my point is that that metric is simply invalid, in its own terms. To put it simply, Dembski's argument is that natural processes can produce "complex" patterns, which he defines as being patterns are one of a very large number of patterns that might be generated by some "chance" process, and the example he gives are series of coin tosses. Chance, he says, might give you a series of heads and tails, which we can represent as ones and zeros. Now, any one pattern is as likely as any other pattern, so 100 heads is no less likely that, say: 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1,which I just generated randomly. So both are equally "complex" - have the same amount of Shannon information. However, he argues that the reason we would suspect skulduggery if someone tossed 100 heads is that 100 heads is one of a very small group subset of patterns of heads and tails that can be described as simply as "all heads". "All tails" is another candidate. This subset of patterns he calls "specified" - not, note, "pre-specified". Thus he proposes that without even knowing what a pattern was "supposed" to be, if it is both very complex (high Shannon) and very compressible (high Kolmogorov compressibility) that we can infer that something other than "chance" was responsible. Oddly, in that 2006 paper, he drops his "Explanatory Filter", thinking it no longer necessary, apparently (you can probably find the announcement in here somewhere, there was a piece about it at Panda's Thumb), and considering that CSI took care of both Chance and Necessity. Well, as you've just noted, it doesn't. If a pattern has CSI (and although I haven't calculated it, I'm fairly confident that Chesil Beach would come into the rejection region of Dembski's null distribution), we know that it was not generated by a process that generates a flat distribution of patterns, i.e. in which all patterns are equiprobable (and few processes do). But that does NOT tell you the thing was created by intelligence. We all agree that Chesil Beach wasn't, and indeed, there are many patterns in geology that exhibit vast amounts of CSI by Dembski's metric, and no-one argues that they are intelligently designed (except in a remotely deist sort of way). So Dembski has dropped the ball. He always did need to reject patterns created by "necessity" before considering "chance", in order to filter out patterns like Chesil Beach. CSI doesn't do the job. But then we are back to all the original problems with Explanatory Filter. The EF tried to separate Chance from Necessity, and, pace Monod, this is not actually possible, because the two are not two kinds of causes, they are two ways of looking at one kind of cause. Something happens "of necessity" if it is not contingent on anything else. One could argue that no event, not even the sunrise, is contingent on nothing, but let's for the moment imagine that some events are absolutely certain. And let's give them a Necessity score of 1, which we could also write as a probability of 1. Now let's make the event slightly more contingent - take a coin toss. If we toss a coin, there is a probability of almost 1 that it will land either face up or face down (presumably very occasionally a coin lands on its edge), which we will round to 1. However, there is only a .5 probability that it will land heads. So now we reduce our Necessity score to .5. And so on. In other words, "Necessity" is just the name we give to events that are contingent only on extremely unlikely other events, and "Chance" the name we give to events that are contingent on a vast number of extremely unlikely (individually) other events. Somewhere in between are events with a measurable probability distribution, and we call processes that are statistically predictable in the mass, but not predictable as individual events, "stochastic". So Dembski was in fact absolutely right to abandon the EF in favour of CSI, but in so doing, he simply makes explicit what the problem that was implicit in the EF: perfectly natural stochastic processes can produce patterns that are highly compressible (what emerges is a tiny fraction of what could emerge from a process that produced a flat distribution), and yet have high complexity (be very unlikely to be generated by a flat-distribution-producing process). Therefore, all we can say, if a pattern exhibits CSI is that it was not produced by a process in which all permutations of the pattern elements are equiprobable. And so it does not allow us to distinguish Intelligent Design from stochastic natural processes (or non-stochastic ones, actually - the EF did at least allow us to do that). But it gets worse. We know that non-linear natural processes (stochastic or non-stochastic) can produce vastly complex patterns that have all the appearance of design. All the mathematics of chaos tell us that. And what Darwin proposed was a non-linear natural process. And so CSI simply cannot distinguish Design from Darwinian processes. You'd need something else. Hence "Irreducible Complexity". Unfortunately that has problems too, and Dembski has not dealt with them:
Why is intelligent design held to such a high standard when that standard is absent from the rest of the empirical sciences (nowhere else in the natural sciences is strict logical possibility/impossibility enforced, not even with the best established physical laws like the first and second laws of thermodynamics)?
Interesting that Dembski seems to accept that the 2LoT is not violated by biological agents, but let that pass :)
What’s behind this double-standard is a curious logic that propels evolutionary reasoning. I call it evolutionary logic or the logic of credulity. Evolutionary logic takes the form of a reductio ad absurdum. The absurdity is intelligent design or more generally any substantive teleology. For evolutionary biologists, to treat design or teleology as fundamental modes of explanation capable of accounting for the emergence of biological structures is totally unacceptable. Any valid argument that concludes design in such cases must therefore derive from faulty premises. Thus, in particular, any claim that entails, makes probable, or otherwise implicates design in the emergence of biological structures must be rejected. But evolutionary logic doesn’t stop there. Not only must any claim that supports design be rejected, but any claim that rules out design thereby demands assent and commands belief. Hence evolution’s logic of credulity — belief in an evolutionary claim is enjoined simply because it acts as a defeater to design and not because any actual evidence supports it…
This is simply wrong. As Dawkins said in his interview with Ben Stein (which Dembski clearly misunderstands totally) there's nothing intrinsically anathema about making a Design inference. And as he points out with SETI, scientists do the same thing, as do archaeologists, forensic scientists, and people in my business too (we regularly conduct statistical tests to see whether people are responding "above chance" i.e. intelligently). So I dismiss this rebuttal as the rebuttal of a straw man.
Bottom line: Calculate the probability of getting a flagellum by stochastic (and that includes Darwinian) means any way you like, but do calculate it. All such calculations to date have fallen well below my universal probability bound of 10^(-150). But for Miller all such calculations are besides the point because a Darwinian pathway, though completely unknown, most assuredly exists and, once made explicit, would produce probabilities above my universal probability bound. To be sure, if a Darwinian pathway exists, the probabilities associated with it would no longer trigger a design inference. But that’s just the point, isn’t it? Namely, whether such a pathway exists in the first place. Miller, it seems, wants me to calculate probabilities associated with indirect Darwinian pathways leading to the flagellum. But until such paths are made explicit, there’s no way to calculate the probabilities. This is all very convenient for Darwinism and allows Darwinists to insulate their theory from critique indefinitely.
No. Dembski has this backwards, by his own methodology. It was he who cast "natural" causes as the null, and insisted on Fisherian, not Bayesian, logic. And under his own chosen statistical method, it is up to him to show that the pattern in question could not be generated under that null. And I have just demonstrated that he cannot do this, and does not even attempt to. He regards "equiprobable" as the null, and natural non-linear stochastic processes (and many others) do no not produce equiprobable outcomes. He can't have it both ways. Either he models the null properly, or he must cast natural processes as as H1. Behe, however does better. He claims that certain features cannot evolve (in other words he actually casts Darwinian evolution as H1). Unfortunately, however, he makes two errors. First of all, he posits a general principle which is easily falsifiable, and has been falsified: that "irreducibly complex" features cannot evolve by Darwinian processes, or, alternatively, by deeply IC pathways (he has presented both). This was famously falsified by Lenski's AVIDA trials. Secondly, he sets up putative IC structures, and claims they, specifically, cannot have evolved, because they require too many improbable sequence changes to have happened simultaneously. This is simply a mistake. As with his general principle, he forgets drift (and also does not take into account the unknown number of possible comparable features that might have, but did not, evolve to do a similar job). If three genetic changes are required to bring about a reproductive advantage, they do not have to happen simultaneously, and the longer the first hangs around in the gene pool, the more individuals bearing that change there are in whom a second change may occur. So you do not reach an "Edge of Evolution" by multiplying the (im-)probability of each change, because you also have to factor in the probability of each change propagating substantially through the population (which is a bit tricky, but population geneticists can supply the necessary integral equations). And so he does not earn the result to "retain the null" of no Darwinian evolution; and even if he did, that is a weak conclusion, as it only rejects one specific hypothesis; it does not allow him to infer "Design" as the only one remaining.
In other words, if you believe there is a natural biasing factor at work in Nature which makes Darwinian evolution possible, then please demonstrate its existence, and then we can perform probability calculations.
A "natural biasing factor" is exactly what Darwin's "natural selection" is. And we know that it happens because we can actually observe it in real time. But you can't do probability calculations on it. They won't demonstrate the truth of Darwinian evolution any more than they will demonstrate the truth of ID. It's just not the right methodology for this questions. What you can do, is the good old tried-and-true method of generating specific hypotheses from your theory, and testing them, and then computing the probability of seeing those observations under your null. Or, using Bayesian stats if you prefer. But you need a specific hypothesis to test. That's why the one potentially fruitful line of ID research IMO is something like the "front-loading" hypothesis, but it needs a heck of a lot more work. Your own brave attempt is also possible (and possibly related!) - the trouble is that a null finding would not either falsify Darwinism or ID. I can write a non-linear stochastic pattern generator that will produce lovely fractals, no two the same. However, if I store my random inputs, and find one I like, I can reproduce it exactly by specifying those inputs next time instead of drawing from my specified distributions. So I can "play God" as it were, and reliably produce the desired pattern, even though it is one perfectly generatable by my original non-linear stochastic pattern generator. There's no way you could, post hoc, examine my pattern and say whether it was the one generated by the run in which I pre-specified the parameters, knowing what I'd get, and the one originally generated that I happened to like. And if God is omniscient, he doesn't even have to go to the trouble of waiting until the one he likes comes up :) In other words - "theistic evolution" is perfectly viable. There's nothing in Darwin's theory (or modern evolutionary theory) that is inconsistent with a Designer God. More to the point, Darwin's theory could explain every detail of every critter that ever lived, and still be "wrong" in the sense that "actually" God foresaw, planned, and intended the whole thing, just like me with my little pattern generator.
Until then, the default assumption is that there is none. As far as the origin of life is concerned, Dr. Stephen Meyer has argued in Signature in the Cell that the hypothesis of “biochemical predestination” flies in the face of everything we know about DNA. There are no signi?cant differential af?nities between any of thefour bases in DNA and the binding sites along the sugar-phosphate backbone. The same type of N-glycosidic bond occurs between the base and the backboneregardless of which base attaches. All four bases are acceptable; none is chemically favored.
This is just silly. Unless he thinks that every time a cell divides, or any biochemical process takes place, the molecules are actually being pushed around by little intelligent angels or something. Clearly the biochemistry works, even if where don't know exactly how. And when we find out, then we will be in a better position to understand the origin of DNA. I mean it's possible that it will remain forever a mystery, but you can't infer design from a mystery. That's argument from ignorance and a fallacy.
The same logic applies to proteins as well. As Dr. Meyer puts it: “differing chemical af?nities do not explain themultiplicity of amino acid sequences existing in naturally occurring proteinsor the sequential arrangement of amino acids in any particular protein.”
And my same objection applies.
We may fairly conclude that at least as far as the origin of life is concerned, Dembski’s assumption that all sequences are equiprobable is a perfectly good null hypothesis.
But we weren't talking about OOL! And no, it isn't a reasonable assumption. In fact one hypothesis is that the very earliest reproductively advantageous sequences were those that contained greater proportions of the more prevalent ingredients. In a soup of mainly carrots, quite a few peas and the odd mushroom, a peptide made mostly of carrots is going to reproduce more often than one made mostly of mushrooms. So it is at least likely that the first Darwinian-capable self-replicators were already a biased sample of the possible compounds floating around the primordial goo. OK, that took more time than I meant it to, and I gotta run, so I'm hoping there aren't too many typos or (worse!) Freudian slips! Nice to talk to you as ever LizzieElizabeth Liddle
February 2, 2012
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Petrushka, You allow for only one scenario that it includes intelligence, accept that it isn't intelligent.
They could be designed by a being capable of seeing sequence spaces that are larger than the number of particles in the universe.
You have an odd way of phrasing one assumption within another, as in this case you defy countless examples of intelligent arrangement, including your own writing, which is not achieved by examining every possible sequence. Time and time again this argument is your linchpin, and yet it is predicated upon willful ignorance of the abundant demonstrations of how intelligence operates, and the assumption that what behaves predictably cannot be predicted. Your reasoning requires the acceptance of an irrational assumption. And the reward for doing so is that one then has a basis for accepting an even more irrational belief. It's flawed to the core, and one irrationality begets the next. And then, confronted with the stark reality that people with no experience whatsoever do in fact learn to fold proteins, you retreat to the argument that they won't get any better at it but the GAs they quickly surpassed will. As if this evidence has not already bowled over what was shaky logic to begin with. What you offer runs contrary to all of human experience, depends on acceptance of unwarranted and irrational assumptions, and is refuted by empirical evidence. And you you proceed from one point to the next anyway in an endless loop of denial. Curse my get-the-last-word-always-be-right impulse. I need to disconnect from this.ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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I'd like to point out that however much I disagree with gpuccio, I recognize the problems he presents as real problems, and I take the trouble to understand what he is saying and why it is important. I can't really say the same for most ID advocates regarding evolution and the problems presented by ID. In general researchers in mainstream biology have already formulated the kinds of questions raised by critics of evolution, and research programs are in place (and have been in place for a long time) to address these questions. Most of the criticisms of evolution go back a century or two. Progress is dependent on the current state of technology and the tools available. None of these questions really cast doubt that evolution happened over billions of years, any more than questions about the origin of the moon cast doubt on the age of the solar system and its general history. If the current theory of moon formation is wrong, the default fallback explanation is not space aliens or magic.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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There are reports of situations where a person intends to call another person and in the very moment when s/he wants to lift the receiver this other person calls in.
I've had that happen. I lifted the receiver before the phone rang, and the person I was going to call was already on the line. I fail to see how that supports telepathy. Now if it had been the President or someone who had no prior contact with me, that would have been exciting.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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How can you argue that translation requires a dictionary of every possible sequence when every second it is being translated without such a dictionary? Here’s the DNA, here’s the protein produced as a result (plus whatever else it codes for.) Both are real and one results from the other. Where is this massive dictionary you speak of?
Languages have words and syntax. Dictionaries define words and the rules of grammar define syntax. You do not have language dictionaries containing every possible sentence. What a theory of biological design would require (at a minimum) is a dictionary of words that is smaller than the list of possible sentences or paragraphs. Unless I misread gpuccio, the shortest word in DNA is the protein domain. I'm not convinced, but that's the way I read his assertion. The problem is that the domain is a rather long sequence and unlikely to arise by pure chance. (Only a few thousand exist, so the invention is suitably rare.) Now there are several possible ways that domain sequences could arise. 1. They could be designed by a being capable of seeing sequence spaces that are larger than the number of particles in the universe. 2. There are smaller words and a grammar within the sequences that we haven't yet discovered. (If so, the smaller words would be selectable.) 3. The sequences could arise for some other reason as part of some other selectable structure. 4. The sequences are simply the current version of sequences that have accumulated from shorter sequences. 5. Something else. I don't know which is correct, but I do know which conjectures can be investigated by science.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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What Thornton has done is demonstrate a procedure for investigating connectability. That is what science does: devise testable hypotheses and test them. What alternative is there? I haven't seen one from the ID camp.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, You raise several valid points in your criticisms of Sheldrake's lack of rigor. So I think it's best to focus on his most convincing evidence that the mind and brain are distinct: telephone telepathy. The best paper I've found on the subject is Do You Know Who is Calling? by Stefan Schmidt, Devi Erath, Viliana Ivanova and Harald Walac in The Open Psychology Journal, 2009, Volume 2, pp. 12-18. On the other hand, Dr. Chris French has a Youtube critique of Sheldrake's experiments here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TWwjBFYRhc - although I don't think it's pertinent to Schmidt et al.'s paper. Anyway, that's about all I know. I was personally impressed by the Nolan sisters, but I realize that the odds of the results occurring by chance aren't anywhere near low enough to make the case compelling: http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2009/11/rupert-sheldrake-telephone-telepathy.html Many critics have found Sheldrake's hypothesis of morphogenetic fields rather nebulous. I don't think that's altogether fair: Newton famously feigned no hypotheses about how gravity worked. A better criticism would be that the notion of a morphogenetic field needs to be described mathematically before it can be said to qualify as a bona fide formal cause of the kind that scientists can investigate. By the way, Ken Wilber has an interesting article on Sheldrake's views, entitled, Sheldrake's theory of morphogenesis .vjtorley
February 2, 2012
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It may be that the translation of a sequence into proteins or regulation is deterministic, but it can’t be a language in the usual sense unless you can parse it.
Are you suggesting that it cannot be parsed? That it's not a language because it can't be read? And yet somehow the same genes produce the same frog over and over. You can't deny that the relationship exists and that it behaves consistently. But the crux of your argument is that it's impossible to comprehend or predict. To say that what behaves with uniform consistency is unpredictable is the antithesis of science. You are literally arguing that what is unknown cannot be known. But only in this case. And they say ID is a science-stopper.
If the dictionary for translation is the same length as the number of possible utterances, it’s not analogous to language or even to programming.
This gets stranger and stranger. If the content of DNA could not be translated without a dictionary containing every possible combination then the mechanisms for protein synthesis would be physically massive. How can you argue that translation requires a dictionary of every possible sequence when every second it is being translated without such a dictionary? Here's the DNA, here's the protein produced as a result (plus whatever else it codes for.) Both are real and one results from the other. Where is this massive dictionary you speak of? Your argument is a surreal denial of the existence of the process you purport to explain. I must be dreaming or hallucinating. I need to come up for air.ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your post. Professor Dembski is well aware of the dilemma you raise:
Right. There’s a “natural biasing factor” [in the case of the distribution of pebbles along Chesil beach - VJT]. And so what if, for organisms there is also a “natural biasing factor”? Which is precisely what Darwinian evolution theory proposes! In other words, you can’t infer intelligent design from CSI without calculating the probability under the null of Darwinian evolution! So Dembski is caught on the horns of a dilemma: either he assumes all sequences are equiprobable under the null, in which case Chesil beach has CSI, or he attempts to calculate the probability distribution of sequences under the null, in which case he has to calculate the non-flat distribution of sequences under all possible “natural” hypotheses, in which case his argument is entirely circular.
In reply, I would like to point out that Professor Dembski is perfectly aware of the argument you raise, and he has already addressed it. As far back as 2003, he wrote, in his paper, Still Spinning Just Fine: A Response to Ken Miller :
Why is intelligent design held to such a high standard when that standard is absent from the rest of the empirical sciences (nowhere else in the natural sciences is strict logical possibility/impossibility enforced, not even with the best established physical laws like the first and second laws of thermodynamics)? What's behind this double-standard is a curious logic that propels evolutionary reasoning. I call it evolutionary logic or the logic of credulity. Evolutionary logic takes the form of a reductio ad absurdum. The absurdity is intelligent design or more generally any substantive teleology. For evolutionary biologists, to treat design or teleology as fundamental modes of explanation capable of accounting for the emergence of biological structures is totally unacceptable. Any valid argument that concludes design in such cases must therefore derive from faulty premises. Thus, in particular, any claim that entails, makes probable, or otherwise implicates design in the emergence of biological structures must be rejected. But evolutionary logic doesn't stop there. Not only must any claim that supports design be rejected, but any claim that rules out design thereby demands assent and commands belief. Hence evolution's logic of credulity -- belief in an evolutionary claim is enjoined simply because it acts as a defeater to design and not because any actual evidence supports it... Bottom line: Calculate the probability of getting a flagellum by stochastic (and that includes Darwinian) means any way you like, but do calculate it. All such calculations to date have fallen well below my universal probability bound of 10^(-150). But for Miller all such calculations are besides the point because a Darwinian pathway, though completely unknown, most assuredly exists and, once made explicit, would produce probabilities above my universal probability bound. To be sure, if a Darwinian pathway exists, the probabilities associated with it would no longer trigger a design inference. But that's just the point, isn't it? Namely, whether such a pathway exists in the first place. Miller, it seems, wants me to calculate probabilities associated with indirect Darwinian pathways leading to the flagellum. But until such paths are made explicit, there's no way to calculate the probabilities. This is all very convenient for Darwinism and allows Darwinists to insulate their theory from critique indefinitely.
In other words, if you believe there is a natural biasing factor at work in Nature which makes Darwinian evolution possible, then please demonstrate its existence, and then we can perform probability calculations. Until then, the default assumption is that there is none. As far as the origin of life is concerned, Dr. Stephen Meyer has argued in Signature in the Cell that the hypothesis of "biochemical predestination" flies in the face of everything we know about DNA. There are no signi?cant differential af?nities between any of thefour bases in DNA and the binding sites along the sugar-phosphate backbone. The same type of N-glycosidic bond occurs between the base and the backboneregardless of which base attaches. All four bases are acceptable; none is chemically favored. The same logic applies to proteins as well. As Dr. Meyer puts it: "differing chemical af?nities do not explain themultiplicity of amino acid sequences existing in naturally occurring proteinsor the sequential arrangement of amino acids in any particular protein." We may fairly conclude that at least as far as the origin of life is concerned, Dembski's assumption that all sequences are equiprobable is a perfectly good null hypothesis.vjtorley
February 2, 2012
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I forgot to mention that between the two, far more experimental research with regard to biological origins is done in favor of design. See the work of Szostak's lab.ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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Petrushka,
You can design a protein or a regulatory function at the sequence level without copying an existing sequence and testing modifications? Without using GAs or directed evolution?
No one has a theory. Yours is to say that somehow it evolved from something that somehow existed. I'll counter it by saying that somehow it was designed. I believe that sentence matches the level of detail you've offered. Both are a great big stretch beyond anything we've observed. I don't mind admitting that, while you cling to supposed demonstrations that don't even remotely relate to what you extrapolate from them. As demonstrated by Thornton's recent paper, efforts to demonstrate the 'evolution of complexity' amount to hyperbolic grasping at straws that insults readers' intelligence. It's nonsense at face value, and such sadly inflated 'evidence' reinforces that evaluation. I'd call it desperate if he didn't have a choir to preach to. But it is pandering, pathetic, and insulting. I could generously supposed that it's not representative of the evidence that persuades you (IOW maybe it's not all crap) except that you're just so proud of it. You know, 'Come back when you've read and understood it' and all that. I've addressed its merits. What I can't make clear enough is that people should be offended by this contemptuous attempt to impress them with something shiny, like giving a lighter to half-naked savages. You don't do it because the lighter is so impressive. You do it because you think they're stupid.ScottAndrews2
February 2, 2012
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One of the characteristics of a language is that you can read it. That may seem trivial, but it's not trivial or tautological in the case of the genetic code. It may be that the translation of a sequence into proteins or regulation is deterministic, but it can't be a language in the usual sense unless you can parse it. If the dictionary for translation is the same length as the number of possible utterances, it's not analogous to language or even to programming. Imagine a computer programming environment in which there are no lines of code, just an assemblage of DLLs that cannot be disassembled into component instructions. That seems to be the case with gpuccio's protein domains. He claims they are irreducible. From my point of view, if this is the case, both design and evolution have the same problem -- explaining how long sequences that are completely isolated from each other came into being. From my point of view the solution is not obvious, but the working hypothesis is obvious. The working hypothesis is that sequences are not isolated. They are connectable by cumulative change.Petrushka
February 2, 2012
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