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It’s all about information, Professor Feser

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Over at his blog, Professor Edward Feser has been writing a multi-part critique of Professor Alex Rosenberg’s bestselling book, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions. Rosenberg is an unabashed defender of scientism, an all-out reductionist who doesn’t believe in a “self”, doesn’t believe we have thoughts that are genuinely about anything, and doesn’t believe in free will or morality. Instead, he advocates what he calls “nice nihilism.” In the last line of his book, Rosenberg advises his readers to “Take a Prozac or your favorite serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and keep taking them till they kick in.”

Edward Feser has done an excellent job of demolishing Rosenberg’s arguments, and if readers want to peruse his posts from start to finish, they can read them all here:

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six

Professor Rosenberg’s argument that Darwinism is incompatible with God

In his latest installment, Professor Feser takes aim at an argument put forward by Rosenberg, that Darwinism is incompatible with the idea that God is omniscient. In his reply to Rosenberg, Feser also takes a swipe at Intelligent Design, about which I’ll have more to say below. In the meantime, let’s have a look at Rosenberg’s argument against theistic evolution.

Rosenberg argues as follows: Darwinian processes, being non-teleological, do not aim at the generation of any particular kind of species, including the human species. What’s more, these processes contain a built-in element of irreducible randomness: variation. Mutations are random, and no one could have known in advance that evolution would go the way it did. Therefore if God had used such processes as a means of creating us, He could not have known that they would be successful, and therefore He would not be omniscient.

In his response, Feser criticizes Professor Rosenberg’s argument on several grounds, arguing that:

(i) belief in the God of classical theism does not logically entail that the emergence of the human race was an event planned by Him (i.e. God might have intentionally made the cosmos, but we might have been an accident);

(ii) God may have intended that the universe should contain rational beings (who possess the ability to reason by virtue of their having immortal souls) without intending that these beings should be human beings, with the kind of body that Homo sapiens possesses – hence our bodies may be the result of an accidental process;

(iii) if you believe in the multiverse (which Feser doesn’t but Rosenberg does), it is perfectly consistent to hold that while the evolution of Homo sapiens may have been improbable in any particular universe, nevertheless it would have been inevitable within some universe; and

(iv) in any case, the probabilistic nature of Darwinian processes does not rule out divine intervention.

Professor Feser’s big beef with Rosenberg’s argument: Divine causality is of a different order from that of natural causes

But Professor Feser’s chief objection to Rosenberg’s anti-theistic argument is that it ignores the distinction between Divine and creaturely causality. At this point, Feser takes pains to distinguish his intellectual position from that of the Intelligent Design movement. He remarks: “What Aristotelian-Thomistic critics of ID fundamentally object to is ID’s overly anthropomorphic conception of God and its implicit confusion of primary and secondary causality.” (I should point out in passing that Intelligent Design is a scientific program, and as such, it makes no claim to identify the Designer. Nevertheless, many Intelligent Design proponents would be happy to refer to this Designer as God.)

God, argues Feser, is like the author of a book. Intelligent natural agents (e.g. human beings) are the characters in the story, while sub-intelligent agents correspond to the everyday processes described within the story. The key point here is that God is outside the book that He creates and maintains in existence (i.e. the cosmos), while we are inside it. God’s causality is therefore of an entirely different order from that of creatures. To say that God intervened in the history of life in order to guarantee that Homo sapiens would emerge (as Rosenberg seems to think that believers in God-guided evolution are bound to believe) is tantamount to treating God like one of the characters in His own story. In Feser’s words, it “is like saying that the author of a novel has to ‘intervene’ in the story at key points, keeping events from going the way they otherwise would in order to make sure that they turn out the way he needs them to for the story to work.” In reality, authors don’t need to intervene into their stories to obtain the outcomes they want, and neither need we suppose that God intervened in the history of life on Earth, so as to guarantee the emergence of human beings.

Feser then argues that things in the world derive their being and causal power from God, just as the characters in a story only exist and alter the course of events within the story because the author of the story wrote it in a way that allows them to do so. For this reason, Feser has no philosophical problem with the notion of Darwinian processes being sufficient to generate life, or biological species such as Homo sapiens. Causal agents possesss whatever powers God wants them to have, and their (secondary) causality is genuine, and perfectly compatible with the (primary) causality of God, their Creator. Just as “it would be absurd to suggest that in a science fiction novel in which such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species, but rather the author of the story who does so and merely made it seem as if Darwinian processes had done it,” so too, “it is absurd to suggest that if God creates a world in which human beings come about by natural selection, He would have to intervene in order to make the Darwinian processes come out the way He wants them to, in which case they would not be truly Darwinian.”

The problem isn’t one of insufficient causal power in Nature; it’s all about information

When I read this passage, I thought, “Aha! Now I see why Professor Feser thinks Intelligent Design proponents have got the wrong end of the stick. Now I see why he thinks we are committed to belief in a tinkering Deity who has to intervene in the natural order in order to change it.” For Feser inadvertently revealed two very interesting things in his thought-provoking post.

The first thing that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed was that he thinks that the difficulty that Intelligent Design proponents have with Darwinian evolution has to do with power – in particular, the causal powers of natural agents. As an Aristotelian-Thomist, Feser sees no difficulty in principle with God granting natural agents whatever causal powers He wishes, so long as they are not powers that only a Creator could possess. Why could not God therefore give mud the power to evolve into microbes, and thence into biological species such as Homo sapiens?

But the problem that Intelligent Design advocates have with this scenario has nothing to do with the powers of causal agents. Rather, it’s all about information: complex specified information, to be precise. By definition, any pattern in Nature that is highly improbable (from a naturalistic perspective) but is nevertheless capable of being described in a few words, instantiates complex specified information (CSI). So the philosophical question we need to address here is not: could God give mud the power to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man, but rather: could God give mud the complex specified information required for it to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man?

The answer to this question, as Edward Feser should be aware from having read Professor Michael Behe’s book, The Edge of Evolution (Free Press, 2007, pp. 238-239), is that Intelligent Design theory is perfectly compatible with such front-loading scenarios. Indeed, Behe argues that God might have fine-tuned the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang, in such a way that life’s subsequent evolution – and presumably that of human beings – was inevitable, without the need for any subsequent acts of God.

A second possibility is that God added complex specified information to the universe at some point (or points) subsequent to the Big Bang – e.g. at the dawn of life, or the Cambrian explosion – thereby guaranteeing the results He intended.

A third possibility is that the universe contains hidden laws, as yet unknown to science, which are very detailed, highly elaborate and specific, unlike the simple laws of physics that we know. On this scenario, complex specified information belongs to the very warp and woof of the universe: it’s a built-in feature, requiring no initial fine-tuning.

Personally, my own inclination is to plump for the second scenario, and say that we live in a cosmos which is made to be manipulated: it’s an inherently incomplete, open system, and the “gaps” are a vital part of Nature, just as the holes are a vital feature of Swiss cheese. I see no reason to believe in the existence of hidden, information-rich laws of the cosmos, especially when all the laws we know are low in information content; moreover, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out in his book, Signature in the Cell, all the scientific evidence we have points against the idea of “biochemical predestination”: simple chemicals do not naturally arrange themselves into complex information-bearing molecules such as DNA. I also think that front-loading the universe at the Big Bang would have required such an incredibly exquisite amount of fine-tuning on God’s part that it would have been much simpler for Him to “inject” complex specified information into the cosmos at a later date, when it was required. (When I say “at a later date”, I mean “later” from our time-bound perspective, of course, as the God of classical theism is timeless.) However, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Complex specified information has to come from somewhere

One thing I’m quite sure of, though: not even God could make a universe without finely-tuned initial conditions and without information-rich laws, that was still capable of generating life without any need for a special act of God (or what Intelligent Design critics derogatorily refer to as “Divine intervention”, “manipulation” or “tinkering”). The reason why this couldn’t happen is that complex specified information doesn’t come from nowhere. It needs a source. And this brings me to the second point that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed in his post: he seems to think that information can just appear in the cosmos wherever God wants it to appear, without God having to perform any specific act that generates it.

This is where the book metaphor leads Feser astray, I believe. The author of a book doesn’t have to specify exactly how the events in his/her story unfold. All stories written by human authors are under-specified, in terms of both the states of affairs they describe – e.g. what’s the color of the house at 6 Privet Drive, next door to Harry Potter’s house? – and in terms of the processes occurring within the story – e.g. how exactly do magic wands do their work in Harry Potter? What law is involved? J. K. Rowling doesn’t tell us these things, and I don’t think most of her readers care, anyway.

But here’s the thing: God can’t afford to be vague about such matters. He’s not just writing a story; He’s making a world. Everything that He brings about in this world, He has to specify in some way: what happens, and how does it happen?

One way in which God could bring about a result He desires is by specifying the initial conditions in sufficient detail, such that the result is guaranteed to arise, given the ordinary course of events.

A second way for God to bring about a result He wants is for Him to specify the exact processes generating the result, in such detail that its subsequent production is bound to occur. (On this scenario, God brings about His desired effect through the operation of deterministic laws.)

A third way for God to produce a desired effect is for Him to make use of processes that do not infallibly yield a set result – i.e. probabilistic occurrences, which take place in accordance with indeterministic laws, and which involve a certain element of what we call randomness. In this case, God would not only have to specify the probabilistic processes He intends to make use of, but also specify the particular outcome He desires these processes to generate. (This could be accomplished by God without Him having to bias the probabilities of the processes in any way: all that is needed is top-down causation, which leaves the micro-level probabilistic processes intact but imposes an additional macro-level constraint on the outcome. For a description of how this would work, see my recent post, Is free will dead?)

Finally, God may refuse to specify any natural process or set of initial conditions that could help to generate the result He desires, and instead, simply specify the precise spatio-temporal point in the history of the cosmos.at which the result will occur. That’s what we call an act of God, and in such a case, the result is said to be brought about purely by God’s will, which acts as an immediate efficient cause generating the effect.

But whatever the way in which God chooses to bring about the result He desires, He must make a choice. He cannot simply specify the effect He desires, without specifying its cause – whether it be His Will acting immediately on Nature to bring about a desired effect, or some natural process and/or set of conditions operating in a manner that tends to generate the effect. Whatever God does, God has to do somehow.

But couldn’t God make evolution occur as a result of a probabilistic process?

Let’s go back to the third way available to God for generating a desired result: namely, working through probabilistic processes. What does Intelligent Design theory have to say about this Divine modus operandi? Basically, what it says is that it is impossible for God to remain hidden, if He chooses this way of acting, and if the desired effect is both improbable (in the normal course of events) and capable of being described very briefly – in other words, rich in complex specified information. For even if the micro-level probabilities are in no way affected by His agency, the macro-level effect constitutes a pattern in Nature which we can recognize as the work of an intelligent agent, since it is rich in CSI.

Professor Feser, working from his authorial metaphor for God, seems to have overlooked this point. The human author of a story can simply write: “Y occurred, as a freakish but statistically possible result of process X.” Here, the author simply specifies the result he/she intends (effect Y) and the process responsible (probabilistic process X, which, as luck would have it, produced Y). Because the effect in the story (Y) is both the result of a natural process (X) occurring in the story, and the result (on a higher level) of the author’s will, it appears that nothing more needs to be said. Feser seems to think that the same holds true for effects brought about by God, working through probabilistic processes: they are both the work of Nature and the work of God. Hence, he believes, nothing prevents God from producing life by a Darwinistic process, if He so chooses.

Not so fast, say Intelligent Design proponents. Probabilistic processes have no inherent tendency to generate outcomes that can be concisely described in language. If an outcome that can be described in a very concise manner is generated by a probabilistic process, and if the likelihood of the outcome is sufficiently low, then it is simply wrong to put this down to the work of Nature. The real work here is done by God, the Intelligent Agent Who specified the outcome in question. It’s fundamentally wrong to give any credit to the natural probabilistic process for the result obtained, in a case like this: for even if God works through such a process, the process itself has no tendency to aim for concisely describable outcomes. God-guided evolution is therefore by definition non-Darwinian. Contrary to Feser, it is not absurd for Intelligent Design proponents to argue that when “such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species,” since Darwinian processes are inherently incapable of generating large amounts of complex specific information, and when we trace the evolution of any species back far enough, we will find that large amounts of complex specific information had to be generated.

Putting it another way: not even God could make an unintelligent natural process with a built-in tendency to hone in on outcomes having a short verbal description. Such a feat is logically impossible, because it would be tantamount to making an unintelligent process capable of making linguistic choices – which is absurd, because language is a hallmark of intelligent agents. Not even God can accomplish that which is logically imposible.

I hope Professor Feser now recognizes what the real point at issue is between Darwinism and Intelligent Design theory. I hope he also realizes that Intelligent Design is not committed to an anthropomorphic Deity, or to any particular Divine modus operandi. ID proponents are well aware of the distinction between primary and secondary causality; we just don’t think it’s very useful in addressing the problem of where the complex specified information in Nature came from. The problem here is not one of finding a primary (or secondary) cause that can generate the information, but rather one of finding an intelligent agent that can do so. Lastly, ID proponents do not think of God as a “tinkerer who cleverly intervenes in a natural order that could in principle have carried on without him,” for the simple reason that Intelligent Design is a scientific program concerned with the detection of patterns in Nature that are the result of intelligent agency, and not a metaphysical program concerned with the being of Nature as such. Metaphysical arguments that Nature depends for its being on God are all well and good, but they’re not scientific arguments as such. For this reason, these metaphysical arguments fall outside the province of Intelligent Design, although they are highly regarded by some ID proponents.

Is Variation Random?

Finally, I’d like to challenge the claim made by Professor Rosenberg and other Darwinists that biological variation is random. Stephen Talbott has skilfully dismantled this claim in a highly original article in The New Atlantis, entitled, Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness. Talbott takes aim at the oft-heard claim, popularized by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, that Nature operates with no purpose in mind, and that evolution is the outcome of random variation, culled by the non-random but mindless mechanism of natural selection. Talbott’s scientific arguments against Dawkins and Dennett are devastating, and he makes a convincing scientific case that mutation is anything but random in real life; that the genomes of organisms respond to environmental changes in a highly co-ordinated and purposeful fashion; and that even the most minimal definition of random variation – i.e. the commonly held view that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be – crumbles upon inspection, as the whole concept of “usefulness” or “fitness” turns out to be irretrievably obscure. At the end of his article, Talbott summarizes his case:

Here, then, is what the advocates of evolutionary mindlessness and meaninglessness would have us overlook. We must overlook, first of all, the fact that organisms are masterful participants in, and revisers of, their own genomes, taking a leading position in the most intricate, subtle, and intentional genomic “dance” one could possibly imagine. And then we must overlook the way the organism responds intelligently, and in accord with its own purposes, to whatever it encounters in its environment, including the environment of its own body, and including what we may prefer to view as “accidents.” Then, too, we are asked to ignore not only the living, reproducing creatures whose intensely directed lives provide the only basis we have ever known for the dynamic processes of evolution, but also all the meaning of the larger environment in which these creatures participate — an environment compounded of all the infinitely complex ecological interactions that play out in significant balances, imbalances, competition, cooperation, symbioses, and all the rest, yielding the marvelously varied and interwoven living communities we find in savannah and rainforest, desert and meadow, stream and ocean, mountain and valley. And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science.

Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see — somewhere — blind, mindless, random, purposeless automatisms at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change….

This “something random” … is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.

My response to Rosenberg

I would like to briefly respond to Professor Rosenberg’s argument that belief in God is incompatible with Darwinism. He is right about one thing: not even God can use randomness to bring about highly specific results, without “injecting” the complex specified information that guarantees the production of the result in question. If you’re a thoroughgoing Darwinist who believes that evolutionary variation is inherently random and that Nature is a closed system, then there’s no way for God to do His work. However, on an empirical level, I see no reason to believe that evolutionary variation is inherently random: Talbott’s article, from which I quoted above, cites evidence that the effects of environmental change on an organism’s genome are highly co-ordinated by the organism itself. What’s more, recent scientific evidence that even the multiverse must have had a beginning, and that even the multiverse must have been exquisitely fine-tuned, points very strongly to the fact that Nature is not a closed system. (See my article, Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning”, which also contains links to my recent posts on cosmological fine-tuning.) And of course, Professor Feser has done an excellent job of expounding the metaphysical arguments showing that Nature is not self-sufficient, but requires a Cause.

Comments
I honestly don’t see any difference between your faithful defense of this dogma and any other religious conviction.
I really can't help you if you haven't noticed the gradual retreat of anti-evolutionism over the last 150 years from it never happened, to it happened but only due to intervention, to it happened without intervention, but it was front loaded, to it happened without front loading, but the parameters of the universe were designed so it would happen. Most ID proponents fall into at least one of these categories. The same progression occurred with the age of the earth and universe. The same progression occurred with the nature of the solar system. It's always a rear guard action. At the moment we have some instances of "impossible" three step mutation sequences involving intermediate loss of function. there will be more such instances. Right now they are declared rare. In ten years, not so rare. Eventually the rule of three will be the rule of four, or something like that.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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Champignon, I don't even know how many decades back you have to go to find a programming language or framework that had not already assigned the value of 8 to 8. And if you go back any farther than that, then yes, you would have to assign the values. What about the concept that 10 < Jack < Queen < King? Did you even pause to think about where that comes from? Yes, I am a programmer. There are essentially two ways to do it. One is to write a function that compares two cards and returns an indicator of whether the first card is less than, equal to, or greater than the second card. That function contains such logic as: If Card A is a Queen and card B is a Jack, the result is "greater than." It would be long, ugly function. Or you assign a numerical value to each card and use a numerical sort. Or you write a function that receives a card and returns a value by which to sort. Same thing. What a waste of time to spell out something so obvious. In which scenario does the computer "know" that a king is greater than a jack without being told? What intrinsic quality of "queen of spades" makes it greater than "jack of spades?" Meanwhile, any group of card players is free to decide that from now on, jack < king < queen. Those are the new rules. If, as you suggest, the initial arrangement is somehow emergent from natural law, then how did they change it? What you said is silly enough that most people would dismiss it without logically explaining why. But that's what this is all about - taking something worthy of immediate dismissal and accommodating it, dignifying it with discussion. This is what I would do if my son told me that babies grew on trees or if I encountered someone who was hallucinating. So now I've given you several paragraphs explaining the obvious, that a computer cannot sort cards without someone first assigning value to them, maintaining the illusion that we're having a rational discussion.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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Scott,
Show me anything that will sort cards, virtual or physical, by number and suit, without someone telling it what value to assign to each? If you can find anything, anywhere that can tell that 4 < 5 < 6 < 8 < 9 without someone to tell it what each symbol represents, then you will have something of substance.
You're a programmer, right? Think about the problem for a while. If you can't come up with an algorithm that sorts cards without assigning a value to each, let me know, and I'll provide one.champignon
February 1, 2012
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The words purposeful and intelligence are just labels we attach to what chemistry does when certain complex arrangements occur.
Of course they are, if that's what you want them to mean and you redefine them as such. While we're at it, choreography is just a label I attach to the thing I make toast with. And war is just a label I attach to peace. When all else fails, redefine reality.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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Champignon, Wow, did I say "physical" when I meant "natural" in the sense of non-artificial, undirected? Good catch. Maybe you can find a spelling error while you're ignoring the content.
This is obviously not true, even setting aside your problematic use of the word “awareness”. A computer can sort cards based on their symbolic meaning (“5 is less than 6, so the 5 of hearts goes before the 6 of hearts”), but it doesn’t need to do it this way. It can just as easily treat the cards as pure patterns with no meaning: “a card with pattern X goes before a card with pattern Y”.
Show me anything that will sort cards, virtual or physical, by number and suit, without someone telling it what value to assign to each? If you can find anything, anywhere that can tell that 4 < 5 < 6 < 8 < 9 without someone to tell it what each symbol represents, then you will have something of substance. If not, why even bring it up? Are you seriously arguing that a computer can find something intrinsic to the symbol "7" that associates it with the number or quantity seven? These arguments are pointless. I don't see what you hope to accomplish. The mere thought of disagreement does not refute logic.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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So he doesn't accept the fossil and genetic evidence for common descent? And he gets angry when ID is "confused" with creationism. If it looks like a duck..lastyearon
February 1, 2012
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"old *articles* by Dobzhansky" - Timaeus Well, I'd highly recommend Dobzhansky's text “Anthropology and the Natural Sciences – The Problem of Human Evolution” from 1963 in Current Anthropology, even for 'people today.' Much more anthropology is needed in the IDM, in this case healthy and provocative to read as written by a 'creationist-evolutionist'. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2739837 In fact, I'd take most things written by Marshall McLuhan (1911-1980) in the 1960s and 70s over William Dembski's 1990s and 2000s contribution on the topic of 'information.' But hey, maybe I'm just being nostalgic. People are still catching up to McLuhan. Not sure if the same will be said of Dembski's specification mathematics or his EF in 10 or 20 years. “The shock of recognition! In an electric information environment, minority groups can no longer be contained—ignored. Too many people know too much about each other. Our new environment compels commitment and participation. We have become irrevocably involved with, and responsible for, each other.” (1967) “If the work of the city is the remaking or translating of man into a more suitable form than his [sic] nomadic ancestors achieved, then might not our current translation of our entire lives into the spiritual form of information seem to make of the entire globe, and of the human family, a single consciousness?” (1964) "Today our science and method strive not towards a point of view but to discover how not to have a point of view, the method not of closure and perspective but of the open ‘field’ and the suspended judgment. Such is now the only viable method under electric conditions of simultaneous information movement and total human interdependence.” (1962)Gregory
February 1, 2012
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I’m not talking about a half-dozen intermediary fossil forms. I’m not talking about scattered observations that a few proteins here might be homologous to a few proteins there. I’m talking about a pathway of particular molecular/genetic changes, specifying what might have happened, in a plausible order, producing intermediate forms that would be selectable.
Ah, the pathetic level of detail. I wouldn't worry too much. It's the kind of work that's accumulating bit by bit, but you are safe for he near future. But comparative genomics is on the rise, and there will be more Thorntons looking to find pathways connecting cousins. It's missing links redux.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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Scott, My interpretation of your statement...
The example of sorting cards is different, as they are identical with regard to any purely physical process.
...was that you meant what you said: that cards are identical with regard to any purely physical process. You are scolding me because I didn't assume that you meant the opposite of what you wrote. If you want to be understood, say what you mean. And ironically, my interpretation of your statement was the most charitable one. If you didn't mean that "cards are identical with regard to any purely physical process", then the rest of your argument isn't even wrong. Speaking of the rest of your argument, you wrote:
Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them.
This is obviously not true, even setting aside your problematic use of the word "awareness". A computer can sort cards based on their symbolic meaning ("5 is less than 6, so the 5 of hearts goes before the 6 of hearts"), but it doesn't need to do it this way. It can just as easily treat the cards as pure patterns with no meaning: "a card with pattern X goes before a card with pattern Y". And this kind of sorting can be applied to, say, geometric patterns or postcard landscapes where there are no symbols at all. Another problem with your argument is that you are assuming that human intelligence is a nonphysical process. What is your evidence for this assumption?champignon
February 1, 2012
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Petrushka (10.1.2.2.2): To use your phrasing, what I haven't seen from the Darwinian model of evolution is any hypothetical evolutionary pathway from non-flagellum to flagellum, or deer to whale, or the like. I'm not talking about a half-dozen intermediary fossil forms. I'm not talking about scattered observations that a few proteins here might be homologous to a few proteins there. I'm talking about a pathway of particular molecular/genetic changes, specifying what might have happened, in a plausible order, producing intermediate forms that would be selectable. There's no stepwise account there, any more than there is in ID. Why should ID people have to enumerate all the things a designer might have done, when Darwinians think it's unreasonable for them to have to produce full evolutionary pathways? Why the double standard? I'll make you a deal; you publish a book with a full hypothetical Darwinian pathway to the first cardio-vascular system, and after I read your book, I will write a book detailing the hypothetical steps by which a designer could have effected the same thing. That seems fair to me.Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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There have been very many critiques of Dembski's math. None to my knowledge are published, because you don't get papers published if they are critiques of non-published work. Most are much more detailed than mine, but mine seems a simple enough point that I'd have thought someone here (maybe even Dembski himself) could respond. Possibly gpuccio or kairosfocus, both of whom have developed their own versions of CSI. I'm no mathematician, but of course I am a data analyst, and use inferential statistics daily. And actually, there are plenty of mathematically competent people who post here who could chime in.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Elizabeth: If you think a guy with two Ph.D.s (one in math, one in philosophy) has made an elementary mistake in his own research field, and you have the mathematical knowledge to demonstrate the mistake, then why don't you write up your argument formally and submit it as an article (I know you are a big fan of articles!) to a peer-reviewed journal of probability theory or design theory or the like, instead of airing it here or on other blog sites, among people who mostly aren't competent to referee? If you are going to invest scores of hours arguing against Dembski's position, why not do it where it counts?Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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Scott, the reason I mentioned the beach was not to argue that it was especially complex or required an especially fancy algorithm to create. In fact my point was that it did not.
The process was not complex. Neither was the result. How does your example relate to anything?ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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I would argue that the history of science is full of cases where complexity arises out of regular processes.
Then do. I think everyone already knows what everyone else would argue.
Until ID at least comes up with a competitive process by which evolution is instantiated, a theory of design that explains how the designer overcomes the problem of time and large numbers, some form of evolution is the only player with chips on the table.
What? A competitive process by which a competitive process is instantiated? Time is a problem? If having some form of explanation is the price of entry then why would you say that evolution has 'chips on the table?' You just ruled it out with your own criteria. You continually allude to some out-of-sight set of facts that you apparently don't need to state. 90% of your argument is some imaginary negative evidence against design, as if some magical, unspecified self-instantiation is a reasonable default until something else comes along. So far your positive evidence consists of GAs and the promise that they will get better. Your evidence against design consists first of ignoring or discounting examples of design, such as people designing an enzyme faster than a GA, along with the bizarre, reality-defying prognostication that they won't get better. You know, because in the history of the world, people have never gotten better at designing stuff. I honestly don't see any difference between your faithful defense of this dogma and any other religious conviction.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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I find that reasonable, assuming the author characterizes his book as his latest and best thoughts. But when a new book comes out, my inclination to read it depends on the critical commentary. I'm particularly influenced by favorable commentary. If the favorable commentary doesn't bring up anything new or interesting, I'm not likely to read the book. So I read the Shapiro and Koonin books. I've read a couple chapters of Behe. I've certainly learned things, but I haven't seen anything that would tip the scales one way or another.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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It seems we agree on all this, Timaeus. Cool :)Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Elizabeth (10.1.1.2.3): "Just to make something clear: I don’t do any of these things, although I have read some critiques at Panda’s Thumb and TO." I know you don't. I was making a comment about what other people do, in the context of my reply to Petrushka. I wasn't accusing either you or Petrushka of what I was describing. "Science moves on. That’s one other good reasons for reading papers rather than books." This doesn't logically follow. What logically follows is that one should read the newest articles *and* the newest books, rather than books *or* articles containing views that have since been disproved or have been in some important way superseded. (Of course, I am not implying that every new view is automatically better than every old one, but I am, like you, speaking of the case where new knowledge has rendered an old view untenable.) For example, Shapiro's brand-new *book* would be more useful to read than many old *articles* by Dobzhansky, because it incorporates recent knowledge that D. had no access to.Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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It is interesting that Dembski favors Bayes when analyzing the possibility of cheating in elections, and ID advocates are fond of invoking Bayes when looking at card deals that would be useful to a gambler, but do not wish to apply the same logic to evolution. The reason is that the putative designer has no attributes or known abilities. There is nothing to compare to evolution except an imaginary entity. When you ask why a designer would do things a certain way -- create malaria, for example -- we are told the question is forbidden. Not part of design theory. But this is precisely the kind of information required for a Bayesian inference.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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Well, Dembski specifically rejects Bayesian inference for design IIRC. He's very keen on Fisher. But I'd be interested if a Dembski fan - or anyone - would explain to me how Dembski's CSI avoids classifying Chesil Beach as Intelligently Designed. Because it seems to me he's made a very elementary mistake.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Design detection is still a Bayesian process requiring knowledge of possible causes. Sorted pebbles suggest one cause on a beach, possibly another cause in a Japanese garden. (Same principle for card deals.) When design advocates manage to come up with a biological design process, a concrete methodology by which living things could be designed from scratch (or invented for the first time) then we can apply some reasoning to the question of which process best fits the data.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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Scott, the reason I mentioned the beach was not to argue that it was especially complex or required an especially fancy algorithm to create. In fact my point was that it did not. It came up because Dembski, in his paper: "Specification: the Pattern that signifies Intelligence" says that a pattern has CSI if it has a lot of Shannon information (Complexity) but is highly specified (high compressibility). I was pointing out that a sorted series has both of those attributes, and that sorted series occur naturally, for example at Chesil Beach. Yet we all readily agree that Chesil Beach is not the result of Intelligent Design. And so it seems to me that Dembski's definition of CSI completely fails. It is not "the pattern that signifies intelligence". It's simply a pattern that signifies some kind of algorithmic process, not surprisingly, as the S part of the definition refers to the shortness of the shortest algorithm that can produce the sequence - the shorter, the less "random" according to Dembski, and therefore the more likely to be Designed, if the sequence also has high Shannon Information ("complexity") i.e. is a sequence very unlikely to be thrown up by chance.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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But the instantiation and processing of semiotic information is a fingerprint of purposeful intelligence. It is a byproduct of imagination.
The words purposeful and intelligence are just labels we attach to what chemistry does when certain complex arrangements occur. I grant that we don't know how the arrangements first arose, but I would argue that the history of science is full of cases where complexity arises out of regular processes. I have cited Newton's characterization of the solar system as impossibly complex and obviously the work of gods and angels. (Maybe it is, but it is also the result of regular processes.) Until ID at least comes up with a competitive process by which evolution is instantiated, a theory of design that explains how the designer overcomes the problem of time and large numbers, some form of evolution is the only player with chips on the table.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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Champignon, Do you really think I didn't know that, and didn't even wonder whether someone would point out the obvious just for the sake of meaningless, pointless contradiction? I considered specifying that they are identical except for the arrangement of the ink. I just really didn't think it was necessary. That you singled that out indicates that you really don't grasp the point. What natural laws do you think will affect cards with digits and symbols printed on them in such a way that it will sort them? I can just see the wheels turning trying to imagine something. That's how it works, after all. Imagine something preposterous, then it becomes plausible, then it becomes probable, and eventually inevitable. Let me save you the trouble. What happens when I change my mind and decide that "3" means XXXX and "4" means XXX? Then how will those natural laws sort the cards? There are numerous lines of evidence pointing to design in biology. Some are circumstantial. Even those can be pretty good. But the instantiation and processing of semiotic information is a fingerprint of purposeful intelligence. It is a byproduct of imagination. You see it too. But you'll argue against it anyway. No reason can contend with the will to oppose reason. I don't mean that as harshly as it sounds. I'm sure that every person, myself included, allows themselves some little bit of insanity. I refuse to eat peas even though I know they're good for me and won't hurt me.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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If one is going to attack ID, one should attack it based on these writings, not on the basis of Dembski’s writings about Christianity or the church affiliation of ID proponents or culture war propaganda one has heard from the NCSE or Wikipedia or Panda’s Thumb or what the special witnesses for the plaintiffs said about ID at the Dover Trial or the book Of Pandas and People or what Phil Johnson wrote about materialism and the supernatural 15 years ago.
Just to make something clear: I don't do any of these things, although I have read some critiques at Panda's Thumb and TO. But I always try to go to primary sources, and wrt Dembski I'm going on his papers that are specifically about ID, including his papers with Robert Marks, but also "Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Design" which he has actually said supercedes his earlier writings. But when you say we shouldn't judge ID on "what Phil Johnson wrote about materialism and the supernatural 15 years ago", then could I also ask that people don't judge evolutionary theory on what Gould wrote thirty years ago, or on what Darwin wrote 150 years ago? Science moves on. That's one other good reasons for reading papers rather than books.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Actually, if Darwin was alive now, he probably would have published Origin as a paper, and expanded it as a book. It's ideas could certainly be distilled into a small space, and it's part of its genius that his central idea can be distilled into a single sentence. My bigger point is that if Dembski, for instance, writes what he has claimed is his most rigorous and up to date treatment of CSI in a formal paper, but it can only be understood if you also read his other books and works, then his paper is not doing what it says on the tin. It should stand on its own. I think it does, and I think it is fundamentally flawed. I'm not going to withhold that judgement just because he has also written some books I have not read. Same with Shapiro. I have read a substantial number of his papers, including his recent review papers. If he has managed to miss some key point in those that can only be gleaned from his book then I'll stick with the papers. Those have been peer reviewed. And from those papers I do not see that he is proposing anything that does not come under the heading: heritable variance in reproductive success, which I would say is the essence of Darwin's algorithm.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Actually, if Darwin was alive now, he probably would have published Origin as a paper, and expanded it as a book. It's ideas could certainly be distilled into a small space, and it's part of its genius that the central idea can be distilled into a single sentence.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Despite its title, "Mere Creation" is about ID, not theology. It's presented as the best exposition of the ID position in all its flavors, including Behe's. I've read Behe's defence of the Edge. I don't think Behe is being ignored. I think the work of Lenski and Thornton is in direct response. Obviously this kind of research takes time. It's modelling processes that take thousands of years in the wild. What I haven't seen from the ID movement is a theory of design, something in response to Philip Johnson's call. I mean a description of the process by which a designer would create the long fuvctional sequences that are supposedly beyond the reach of evolution. You can describe the steps by which architects and engineers proceed.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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Scott,
The example of sorting cards is different, as they are identical with regard to any purely physical process.
No. If they were physically identical, we (and machines) wouldn't be able to see the difference between the 2 of spades and the queen of hearts.champignon
February 1, 2012
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Petrushka: Here is my short list of crucial ID books, which I would recommend reading straight through: both of Behe's books, both of Denton's books (though his first book is not really a direct advocacy of design but more a critique of Darwinian theory), Dembski's No Free Lunch, and Dembski and Wells's The Design of Life. I think a couple of Meyer's earlier articles are also essential; his book could be read by a combination of skimming and close reading. In no way am I arguing that everything in these books is excellent or unassailable. But they do give the broad outlines of the ID argument. And contrary to ID detractors, they aren't about the Bible or creationism or theocracy or social renewal by combatting atheism and materialism. They are about science, and to some extent about the historical, methodological and philosophical background of science. If one is going to attack ID, one should attack it based on these writings, not on the basis of Dembski's writings about Christianity or the church affiliation of ID proponents or culture war propaganda one has heard from the NCSE or Wikipedia or Panda's Thumb or what the special witnesses for the plaintiffs said about ID at the Dover Trial or the book Of Pandas and People or what Phil Johnson wrote about materialism and the supernatural 15 years ago. As for the many books written by ID proponents about Christianity, they may have their own merits, but I don't recommend them as expositions of ID theory, as they mix it up with extraneous matter. Of anthologies, the Ruse/Dembski collection is very helpful. (It also contains a not-often-enough read refutation by Behe of Ken Miller's misrepresentation of Behe's position on the flagellum.) Maybe this will reduce your reading load to a bare minimum. :-)Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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I had a toy when I was a child. It was a plastic tube filled with plastic balls of various sizes. Along its interior were several barriers each having holes smaller than the previous. If you hold it one way and shake it, all the balls go to one end. If you turn it the other way and shake it the balls are separated by size. The mechanism is not a feedback loop but the result is the same. There's just nothing particularly intelligent about it. The example of sorting cards is different, as they are identical with regard to any purely physical process. Anything that sorts them, human or otherwise, must have awareness of the meaning of the symbols printed on them. Natural laws can affect rocks of varying sizes but cannot act upon abstract symbols without some intentional input. You can print the digits 0-9 on paper, carve them out of wood, or whatever, and no natural process will sort them. Your example of pebbles leads right back to the difference between physical attributes and symbolic information. One could argue that digits have no physical connection to what they represent because they were designed that way. But as has been shown repeatedly, there is no direct physical correlation between genetic information and the proteins it codes for and the behaviors it regulates. An intermediate protocol is required, just as one is required to read the words "eight pennies" and imagine or count out eight pennies.ScottAndrews2
February 1, 2012
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