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“It’s Emergent!” and “It’s Magical!” Have Equivalent Scientific Explanatory Power for Consciousness

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Bruce Buff and Robert J. Spitzer write:

But when it comes to the mind, this idea [i.e., emergence] has its issues. First, all scientifically observed emergence is actually unanticipated behavior resulting from known physical properties, and not new properties that exceed what physics can explain. Some materialists suggest that consciousness might emerge from physical processes on the quantum level, but any emergence there would be disrupted by anything that has an effect on quantum physics — such as holding up a cell phone to your head or getting an MRI. Simply put, emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts. It doesn’t matter how many Legos are assembled in incredibly complex arrangements, they will never generate a nuclear reaction. Just as radioactivity cannot emerge from the plastic used in the blocks, consciousness does not emerge from the physical parts of the brain.

Precisely.  Think about all of the usual examples of emergence:  hurricanes, schools of fish or flocks of birds acting in unison, the wetness of water.  Now think about what makes all of these examples absolutely irrelevant to discussions of consciousness.  In the former, as Buff and Spitzer observe, known physical properties act in unexpected ways.  For example, the atmosphere acts in unexpected ways to form a hurricane.  Yes, it is extremely complex, but we can see how, in principle, the strong winds, lowered barometric pressure, etc. can be reduced to physical causes.

Not so with mental activity.  While no one denies there is some connection between a person’s mental state and his brain, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that subjective-self-awareness, intentionality, qualia and other features of consciousness can be reduced to the electro-chemical reactions in the brain.  “Mental” and “Physical” are self-evidently in different ontological categories.

It follows that a claim that the mental is somehow an emergent property of the physical is a non-starter as any sort of explanation.  It is, as has often been observed, a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.  It is, nevertheless, a sufficient “explanation” for the already-convinced true believers of materialism.  Those of us of a more skeptical bent see a distinct lack of threads on that kingly body.

Comments
God is an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable ream that operates via inexplicable means and methods.
....and without Him conscious is inexplicable. Life is inexplicable. Materialist efforts amount to a modern alchemy.bb
October 31, 2017
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@BA
CR: “You’ll have to excuse me for not considering that a good explanation.” But that’s not what you said. You said it is no explanation at all, and Andrew called you on your error. Pretending you did not make the error in your response is unbecoming.
Yes, that isn't what I said, as you quote mined me, yet again. I actually wrote...
God is an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable ream that operates via inexplicable means and methods. You’ll have to excuse me for not considering that a good explanation.
A being that "just was" complete with consciousness, already present, doesn't serve an explanatory purpose. This is because one could more efficiently state that people were "just born" with consciousness already present. Using God's consciousness as an "explanation" for consciousness in us just pushes the problem up a level, without solving it. It's like pushing the food around on your plate, then claiming to have ate it. Yet, its still right there, staring you in the face. Or, did I get it wrong? Is God's consciousness not the supposed explanation for consciousness in human beings? If not, what is?critical rationalist
October 31, 2017
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@BA
“You forgot the universality of computation . . .” Nonsense. No one has suggested that computation is an emergent property of physical components.
You might want to read that again. Apparently, you can't even quote mine well?
You forgot the universality of computation, which emerges from a specific repertoire of computations
That's not the same as mere "computation". Furthermore, apparently Stanford University is "no one". From this presentation...
Emergent Properties - An emergent property of a system is a property that arises out of smaller pieces that doesn't seem to exist in any of the individual pieces. - Examples: -- Individual neurons work by firing in response to particular combinations of inputs. Somehow, this leads to thought and consciousness. -- Individual atoms obey the laws of quantum mechanics and just interact with other atoms. Somehow, it's possible to combine them together to make iPhones.
And...
Emergent Properties of Computation - All computing systems equal to Turing machines exhibit several surprising emergent properties. - If we believe the Church-Turing thesis, these emergent properties are, in a sense, “inherent” to computation. You can't have computation without these properties. - These emergent properties are what ultimately make computation so interesting and so powerful. As we'll see, though, they're also computation's Achilles heel – they're how we find concrete examples of impossible problems.
And...
Two Emergent Properties - There are two key emergent properties of computation that we will discuss: -- Universality: There is a single computing device capable of performing any computation. -- Self-Reference: Computing devices can ask questions about their own behavior. As you'll see, the combination of these properties leads to simple examples of impossible problems and elegant proofs of impossibility.
critical rationalist
October 31, 2017
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asauber @ 9: True indeed.Truth Will Set You Free
October 31, 2017
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CR: "You’ll have to excuse me for not considering that a good explanation." But that's not what you said. You said it is no explanation at all, and Andrew called you on your error. Pretending you did not make the error in your response is unbecoming.Barry Arrington
October 31, 2017
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CR: "You forgot the universality of computation . . ." Nonsense. No one has suggested that computation is an emergent property of physical components. You really don't seem to understand the concept of "emergence," because none of your examples are examples of that concept. You are, at best, equivocating. But that's what you side does best, so I am not surprised.Barry Arrington
October 31, 2017
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@asauber
Of course it does, you just don’t like the explanation.
God is an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable ream that operates via inexplicable means and methods. You'll have to excuse me for not considering that a good explanation. @bb
So you have no grounds to dismiss “God did it.”
Sure I do. See above.
None of your examples are emergent because each depend on an existing intelligence purposefully arranging materials into a coherent whole.
You see to be confused about what is meant by the term "emergent".
“Thus there is a class of high-level phenomena – including the liquidity of water and the relationship between containers, heating elements, boiling and bubbles – that can be well explained in terms of each other alone, with no direct reference to anything at the atomic level or below. In other words, the behaviour of that whole class of high-level phenomena is quasi-autonomous – almost self-contained. This resolution into explicability at a higher, quasi-autonomous level is known as emergence.”
critical rationalist
October 31, 2017
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CR,
While we currently lack a emergent theory of mind, as we do with an emergent theory of the universality of computation, this doesn’t mean we will not or cannot have such an emergent theory.
So you have no grounds to dismiss "God did it." None of your examples are emergent because each depend on an existing intelligence purposefully arranging materials into a coherent whole. "Man did it" is the only explanation for an AI computer system, and "God did it" is the only viable one for humanity, individual consciousness and reason.bb
October 31, 2017
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This is an old tradition in science. Physicists have been doing something similar for decades and see nothing wrong with it. If a particle's energy cannot be accounted for, they declare that the particle is "virtual", et voila: physics via labelling.FourFaces
October 31, 2017
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“God did it”, explains nothing.
CR, Of course it does, you just don't like the explanation. If God is around, He likely does stuff. And it's likely He does stuff beyond your comprehension. You just don't want Him to be a possibility. It messes up your cherished worldview. Andrewasauber
October 31, 2017
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Think about all of the usual examples of emergence: hurricanes, schools of fish or flocks of birds acting in unison, the wetness of water.
You forgot the universality of computation, which emerges from a specific repertoire of computations. Or the evolution of the universality of number systems, which started out as tallies and ended up being able to represent any possible number.
Now think about what makes all of these examples absolutely irrelevant to discussions of consciousness.
What's relevant is that they represent leaps to universality that come from simple, individual and disproportional changes. Make one simple change to a number system and suddenly it makes the leap to represent any number. Add one computation, and suddenly it makes the leap to a universal Turing machine that can emulate any other UTC.
In the former, as Buff and Spitzer observe, known physical properties act in unexpected ways. For example, the atmosphere acts in unexpected ways to form a hurricane. Yes, it is extremely complex, but we can see how, in principle, the strong winds, lowered barometric pressure, etc. can be reduced to physical causes.
The examples of emergence I provided above represent abstractions, which are independent of the underlying physical system. A classical UTC made out of silicon transistors can be, in principe, emulated by a machine built with cogs. This is not something that can be "reduced to physical causes." The explanation is found in the theory of computation, which is independent of transistors or cogs. In the case of quantum computation, any physical system can be emulated by any other physical system to arbitrary accuracy. This is why Artificial General Intelligence is possible.
Not so with mental activity. While no one denies there is some connection between a person’s mental state and his brain, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that subjective-self-awareness, intentionality, qualia and other features of consciousness can be reduced to the electro-chemical reactions in the brain. “Mental” and “Physical” are self-evidently in different ontological categories.
And so is the universality of computation. No one denies that there is some connection between transistors and computation, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that the ability to emulate any other UTC can be reduced to atoms of silicon in a transistor, or a cog. However, the existence of abstractions doesn't require positing the existing of some inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable ream that operates by inexplicable means. While we currently lack a emergent theory of mind, as we do with an emergent theory of the universality of computation, this doesn't mean we will not or cannot have such an emergent theory. We simply do not know. And that is a perfectly reasonable answer. "That's just what some design must have wanted", or "God did it", explains nothing.critical rationalist
October 31, 2017
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@J-Mac I'm serious. Even if I were kidding, it's still better than what you have. Answer my question. I answered yours. Once again: If consciousness DID emerge, quantum or other type, how, if “emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts”?bb
October 31, 2017
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@bb, You are kidding, right?J-Mac
October 31, 2017
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If consciousness DID emerge, quantum or other type, how, if "emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts"? How do we test such magic? Personally, I think the best inference is found in Biblical history, because consciousness "emerging" from a conscious being makes vastly more sense: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." -Genesis 2:7 There you go....."properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts." i.e. The creator's constituent parts. Edit: like man endowing a computer system with artificial intelligence, only much more sophisticated. Edit: It's amazing how some materialist preconceptions melt, not only with simple logic, but with "God did it." I can't tell anyone how He did it, but it's the most reasonable. If you want to refer to him as the "magic man in the sky," historically, things we don't understand have appeared to be magical. To God.......it's just something He can do, and we're less than ants in our understanding by comparison.bb
October 30, 2017
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If consciousness did not emerge, quantum or other type, where was it before it became (quantum) entangled with the human brain? If it (consciousness, soul, some other type of non-materialistic existence) had existed before it became a part of a living human, where had it been residing and what proof is there that it had? BTW: For those who are curious, this is the perfect example where Philip Cunningham and I disagree on QM and the teaching of the afterlife...quantum soul that survives after death...J-Mac
October 30, 2017
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Origenes, Correct. "Libertarian free will" should be added to the list of things that cannot, in principle, exist if materialism is true.Barry Arrington
October 30, 2017
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... emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts ...
... and/or their interactions I would like to add. The volume of a gas, pressure, temperature and the number of molecules in the gas, are “emergent properties” because they are not properties of any individual molecule. Emergentism doesn't get us to a rational agent who is in control of his thoughts and behavior. The ‘emergent’ mind is not independent from neuronal behavior, and cannot reach down, if you will, and cause neural change.
If C is an emergent property of M, then C does not control M.
In general, emergent properties fully depend on the properties of the underlying physical layer and are therefore thoroughly unhelpful if the naturalist attempts to ground control and freedom. Obviously the molecules that underlie the emergent properties are themselves determined by natural law. That determined state of the molecules transpires to the higher level of the (constrained) emergent properties.Origenes
October 30, 2017
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However, it is an explanation. So, if one is left grasping at straws, as no doubt the materialist is left doing, it’s better than nothing. Otherwise, you may have to admit that you just don’t know and since you claim to know that consciousness is not-- it is not something that is ontologically distinct from matter-energy. Of course that just kicks the can up another level epistemologically. How does he know that?john_a_designer
October 30, 2017
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