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Jim Stump: “I almost felt sorry for design advocates”

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In his recent review of Benjamin Jantzen’s Introduction to Design Arguments (Cambridge University Press, 2014), evolutionist Jim Stump finds much to agree with because, as Stump argues, design arguments are both bad science and bad religion. For example, Michael Behe argues that evolution is challenged by the irreducible complexity of biological structures, but “almost all” biologists think Behe’s examples don’t hold water. The problem is Behe is implicitly appealing to a caricature of how evolution works that views complexity arising all at once. “In reality,” the ex Bethel professor explains, “natural selection operates on combinations of traits, not merely on isolated structures. Half-developed wings won’t help an insect fly, but they might help it do other things that contribute to its survival, like skim across the surface of water. Contrary to the ID claim about irreducible complexity, you don’t have to get the whole thing at once.”  Read more

Comments
Popperian I'm not following the distinctions you're making. Again, it seems that you're combining all the aspects of a communication-network under the heading of information and/or knowledge and then noting that purpose is not required at certain steps in the process. As I see it, information is one aspect of the process. There is: 1. The generation of information by sender (via Thought, Ideas) 2. The external expression of information, so it empirically exists somehow 3. The communication or sending of the information 4. The receiver - with various purposes and capabilities In your example, a purposeful message was created in Russian. Purpose or intent was necessary there. When the Russian language was created, information and purpose was present. Then, there was an additional decision to communicate or send the message to a receiver. But that doesn't create the information -- it's only the means of transferring. That indicates a separate and independent purpose - so send to a particular receiver (or even intend to publish to the entire world). Choosing an audience or receiver is independent of the purposeful creation of information. Knowledge is a result -- using information and cognition as inputs and processing.
Does my intent and purpose for my message magically make the message readable in Russian? No. It does not.
Actually, yes it does. Your first intent and purpose was to write in Russian. A particular receiver couldn't read it, but anybody who reads Russian could. The infomration-intent was built into the choice of the language and the use of it. The sending and receiving to a particular person was a different intent or purpose which really has nothing to do with the creation of the information itself.
In this sense, knowledge is independent of anyone’s belief or intent. it is knowledge because it plays a causal role in being preserved or retained when embedded in a storage medium. It solves a problem And does so independent of by belief or or intent.
Here's where I lost you again. "It is knowledge because it plays a causal role in being preserved or retained when embedded in a storage medium". I would think that just about anything could be preserved or retained in a storage medium. So, we wouldn't be able to distinguish noise from information in that case.
However, the watch is a rare configuration of matter. It is well adapted to the purpose of telling time. And if would fail to serve this purpose nearly as well if the key aspects of it which served that purpose were modified even slightly. IOW, the watch is hard to vary, but the rock is not.
I think that expresses the design argument fairly well. I had not considered the qualifier "hard to vary" before, but that's basically irreducible complexity so yes. I follow this.
And if a designer is the explanation for that property, then the designer would itself need a designer to explain it, which would also be well adapted to the purpose of designing designers. They too would be hard to vary without significantly reducing their ability to design designers, which means they exhibit the same property, etc.
Ok, infinite regress -- however, you're on an ascending scale of values, two most importantly: Power and Simplicity. The power it takes to create an artifact is less than the power required to create the designer of that artifact. The power to create the designer of the designer is greater still. So, with an infinte regress of designers or designers -- we reach a designer with infinite maximum power (although the regress never stops). Avoiding this regress it's more parsimonious to propose One Ultimate Designer with the maxium power. It's the same with "hard to vary". The more powerful, more sophisticated, more elegant the function, the harder it is to vary. A rock can be varied, as you mention. A watch, less so. A space shuttle, less so (worse consequences). A universe finely-tuned for life even less. So again, we ascend a scale of values and capabilities on an infinite regress to a maximum point. So that happens in many ways - it's a scale of perfection.
That is, unless you’re suggesting that this ultimate designer is not well adapted to the purpose of designing things and could be varied significantly whiteout impacting its ability to design things. Is that what you’re suggesting?
"Being adapted" to things is a function of change. A rock is more adapted to a variety of things than a watch is. A stick is more adapted to many different things than a human heart is. So, that which is more changeable is actually less sophisticated. This is your 'hard to vary' criteria. The ultimate designer actually needs no adaptability at all -- since adapting is a function of change and there's no reason for the ultimate designer to adapt. In fact, creating a sequence of designers of designers requires more precision and less adapting/changeablenesss.
IOW, while Paley did help identify what it means to say something has the appearance of design, he failed to identify a solution, as some ultimate designer cannot be the explanation for that appearance
A solution for the design that is observed is that which has the capability of producing the design.Silver Asiatic
August 12, 2015
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@KF
First, the comms system framework is itself irreducibly complex.
This doesn't answer my question as it's unclear in what context it is IC.
Are you saying that it supports ID because it’s even possible to perform any transformation of this kind, independent of any particular result? Or does it support ID because to get specific results all of those conditions need to be in particular arrangements. Otherwise, you would get some other result or no result at all?
Nor is it clear how this is a problem for evolutionary theory. IOW, it's only a problem if design was already present in the laws of physics at the outset. Is that what you're claiming?Popperian
August 12, 2015
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@SA
Your example is not reasonable. Your stated purpose is to communicate in a language that you know your receiver doesn’t understand.
It only seems unreasonable to you because this is a thought experiment and we have a vantage point that the hypothetical "Me" in the experiment doesn't. Namely, the book "I" thought would allow "me" to successfully write in Russian was inaccurate. While we know this, the "Me" in the thought experiment doesn't not. Furthermore, the message only actually serves that purpose if the requisite knowledge of how to perform the transition is present. The "Me" in the story intentionally created a message with the specific purpose of communicating my life story to a person who only speaks Russian. My intent or purpose for the message simply is insufficient on its own. In fact, to further illustrate, imagine "I" ordered a book for translating Russian, but was accidentally shipped a faulty printing in which the actual contents of the book contains translations in French instead. Again, "I" believe it will let "Me" translate into Russian, but am mistaken. Does my intent and purpose for my message magically make the message readable in Russian? No. It does not. In this sense, knowledge is independent of anyone's belief or intent. it is knowledge because it plays a causal role in being preserved or retained when embedded in a storage medium. It solves a problem And does so independent of by belief or or intent.
But beyond this, when you created information by writing in the Russian language, you expressed purpose, even if a particular receiver doesn’t understand. The Russian language is purposeful. It can be distinguished from noise because it is purposeful.
Something exhibits the appearance of design when it is well adapted to serving a purpose. For example, take the rock and watch that Paley hypothetically came across in a field. The rock can be used as a paper weight, a weapon or even a means to store heat, even if its material arrangement is significantly changed. However, the watch is a rare configuration of matter. It is well adapted to the purpose of telling time. And if would fail to serve this purpose nearly as well if the key aspects of it which served that purpose were modified even slightly. IOW, the watch is hard to vary, but the rock is not. Furthermore, designers are also well adapted to serve a purpose: designing things. As such, they too exhibit the very same property of things they themselves design. And if a designer is the explanation for that property, then the designer would itself need a designer to explain it, which would also be well adapted to the purpose of designing designers. They too would be hard to vary without significantly reducing their ability to design designers, which means they exhibit the same property, etc. That is, unless you're suggesting that this ultimate designer is not well adapted to the purpose of designing things and could be varied significantly whiteout impacting its ability to design things. Is that what you're suggesting? IOW, while Paley did help identify what it means to say something has the appearance of design, he failed to identify a solution, as some ultimate designer cannot be the explanation for that appearance.Popperian
August 12, 2015
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Upright BiPed, I have gone to a link Box gave me days ago entitled, "UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step" and found this:
2. It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.
The above is not true. In the case of GPS, the "information" sent by the GPS satellites do not contain any "information" about where that receiver is located on this planet. The "information" that is sent however, is essential in determining that receiver's location despite the fact none of that information that is sent contains location information. In short, the "information" that determines location, is not instantiated in matter. I'm going to agree, for the sake of this argument, that RF energy is actually matter.Carpathian
August 10, 2015
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Mung, kairosfocus has tried to explain to you and you simply refuse to read what he has written. Please actually read what he has written.
Mung: He has a theory that information can be transmitted as immaterial “something” as long as it’s above the physical later of the ISO model. Strange but true. kairosfocus: Mung, the way the ISO’s OSI layercake works is by passing up and down the layers, with transmission a physical layer process. Peer-peer communication is virtual. KF
I've highlighted a key point in what he is trying to explain to you. I agree with him 100%. I can understand you ignoring what I have to say but kairosfocus is on the ID side. Please dwell on the fact that both of us, from both sides of the ID debate recognize that you do not understand a key point.
Mung: You have your “implicit information” existing in some “virtual” or ethereal plane of existence, you can’t say where, being transformed by some mechanism or other, you can’t say what or how, into physical information such that it can be transmitted over a physical later. Pardon me if I still wonder what your beef is with ID.
The comment above is a result of your inability/refusal to make an attempt to learn something.Carpathian
August 10, 2015
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Popperian First, the comms system framework is itself irreducibly complex. Second, the info transfer metric also reckons with issues of not correctly receiving what was sent. KFkairosfocus
August 10, 2015
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Popperian
[02] I stated that the receiver doesn’t already know english. I could change my mind and choose to write my life’s story in english as a way to work around the problem. But that ignores my original purpose, which is supposedly what underlies the entire argument ID presents.
Your example is not reasonable. Your stated purpose is to communicate in a language that you know your receiver doesn't understand. But beyond this, when you created information by writing in the Russian language, you expressed purpose, even if a particular receiver doesn't understand. The Russian language is purposeful. It can be distinguished from noise because it is purposeful.
Furthermore, I’ve already presented a theory of knowledge that doesn’t require a knowing subject, intent or purpose. It is universal in that it describes knowledge found in brains, books and even genomes of organisms.
I'm sorry I haven't seen that - could you point to it again? Keeping in mind, we've been discussing information here and there's a distinction with that and knowledge.Silver Asiatic
August 10, 2015
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@KF
Popperian, if you cannot speak Russian, get a translator. In short go to a layercake stack process, pass down, across then up creating a virtual peer to peer link. Translation is part of the info flow etc process. KF
Which completely ignores my second scenario. I though I had a way to translate to Russian. But the translation was mistaken, and therefore, so was I. I had a specific purpose, but it wasn't successful because the necessary knowledge was not present. My actions to "Get a translator", had a purpose, but it failed because I was mistaken about what steps were necessary to get a translation that actually worked. @SA #85
I’ll object here. There are two purposes in that example.
While I appreciate your feedback, your objections do not appear to be focused on issues that are relevant to my point. My purpose was to communicate in Russian. Either I will always be successful, because I was acting purposefully, or I will not always be successful. However, in my example, I am not successful, despite exhibiting purpose, free will, etc. This is because the necessary knowledge of how to perform that translation was not present. [01] At the level of individuals, I, as the sender, already know how to distinguish the message. So, I'm sending it to myself. In this case, the problem of how the receiver knows how to distinguish the message not present. [02] I stated that the receiver doesn't already know english. I could change my mind and choose to write my life's story in english as a way to work around the problem. But that ignores my original purpose, which is supposedly what underlies the entire argument ID presents. Furthermore, I've already presented a theory of knowledge that doesn't require a knowing subject, intent or purpose. It is universal in that it describes knowledge found in brains, books and even genomes of organisms.Popperian
August 10, 2015
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@UB After reading your summary, it's unclear how the necessity aspects of obtaining a particular result, such as playing a tune, also make it irreducible complex. While I would agree that information is at play, you seem to think that once someone admits this they have implicitly conceded IC and therefore design. However, it's unclear how this is the case. Now, so there is no mistake, here's where I'm conjecturing why you think biosemiosis supports the ID position. And I'm doing so because apparently there is some additional assumptions you're making that are not explicitly present in your argument. Are you saying that it supports ID because it's even possible to perform any transformation of this kind, independent of any particular result? Or does it support ID because to get specific results all of those conditions need to be in particular arrangements. Otherwise, you would get some other result or no result at all?Popperian
August 10, 2015
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Carpathian. You're a dualist. Plain and simple. You have your "implicit information" existing in some "virtual" or ethereal plane of existence, you can't say where, being transformed by some mechanism or other, you can't say what or how, into physical information such that it can be transmitted over a physical later. Pardon me if I still wonder what your beef is with ID.Mung
August 9, 2015
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Mung:
1. There is no such thing as “virtual” information. 2. An implementation of the OSI model does not convert “virtual information” at some “non-physical layer” into “physical information” so that it can be transmitted over a “physical layer.” There. And it only took two.
I never said that "virtual information" "exists" since by definition, it can't exist. Please look at what kairosfocus wrote. He is on your side so there is no reason to discredit what he is saying before actually trying to understand it. It is the "peer to peer communications " that is virtual, not the "information" .
kairosfocus: Mung, the way the ISO’s OSI layercake works is by passing up and down the layers, with transmission a physical layer process. Peer-peer communication is virtual. KF Carpathian: You should get a quick primer on programming from kairosfocus as he understands things you don’t.
What I saying is that implicit "information" exists that is not instantiated in matter.Carpathian
August 9, 2015
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Popperian, how the system distinguishes messages is rooted in contrastive, distinct states, whether smoothly generated [analogue] or discrete [digital], and yes a comms sys is irreducibly complex. The exact how of that is 1 - 2 degrees in Electrical/Electronics &/or Computer engineering or Applied Physics or the like, rooted in several generations of research in a wide range of disciplines. The cell phone you hold in your hand is a treasury of skill and knowledge reduced to an industrial product that has a world of knowledge packed into it. It is skilled and highly creative interface design that makes it easy to use. KFkairosfocus
August 9, 2015
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Popperian: And you could not send that to a receiver without it first knowing knowing that that message means, etc. Sounds like IC to me. And what might be the most obvious way to tell whether the receiver "knows" what the message means? I'll take a stab at it. You observe. You try to see whether it brings about some physical effect.Mung
August 9, 2015
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Popperian:
However, Shannon’s theory does not indicate the means by which the receiver knows how to physically distinguish messages.
Shannon's treatise applied to machines, ie the equipment that sent, received and stored the message. And machines don't care about meaning they are just supposed to do as we tell them.Virgil Cain
August 9, 2015
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SA: This is why information definitions reckon with probabilities of distortion in light of signal to noise ratio, and it is why the detection of a message is inherently a design inference [indeed S/N ratio directly implies that], with some possibility of error. KFkairosfocus
August 9, 2015
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KF - starting from the end is a good way to understand it. Thanks. That's classic teleology also. Purpose "has an end in mind". The information is created with a receiver in mind -- whether self or external. It has the purpose of communicating meaning. That can be discovered even if the precise meaning is not fully known (disciphering code only partially). One problem I stumbled into is where the receiver can create information out of noise, or interpret information where none was intended. But that's just another example of self-referential information using sense data as a source. The information is generated in the mind of the receiver. I cannot think of an instance in nature where information is generated but there is no receiver capable of understanding it. Although, I suppose we wouldn't know that. For example, if rocks actually try to communicate information, we might never know it. Rocks generate information. The rocks are unaware of it and there is no receiver capable of understanding it. It's simpler with insects for example. Bees generate information. The bees do not appear to be self-reflexive but since they have other receivers capable of understanding what they generate, we recognize a communications-network of information tranferral. The same is true of plants or even communication at the cellular level.Silver Asiatic
August 9, 2015
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SA, the sender has an internal receiver, if it is reflexive. That also happens if it is capable of duplex communication, 2-way. So, making sense to the sender is in the context of reflexive capability of self-communication. To focus on the reception- demod- decode process is relevant as that allows discerning signal from noise. The point of communication is to be received in a way that is functionally apt, so starting from the end leads to the beginning through requisites, and from that information is understood in a way that makes functional sense. With data as a subset. KFkairosfocus
August 9, 2015
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Another attempt ...
“ . . that which would be communicated by a message if it were sent from a sender to a receiver capable of understanding the message . . . .
If there is a receiver capable of understanding the message, then what is sent is information. Ok, I see why I'm having a problem with it. Who judges whether something is information or noise? The sender or the receiver? Or perhaps both? In some cases, the sender cannot know if there is any receiver capable of receiving the message. I create my own secret code and write private notes. If no receiver ever could understand it, would it be information? I guess we could say that the sender understands it so it communicates from sender to sender. The key here is 'understanding' whatever is communicated. Humans have the capability of being able to interpret things, and claim to understand. Are the position of stars informational? Well, there are receivers who believe that the positions communicate astrological prophecies -- so then yes. But this would be true about chicken entrails or reading tea leaves also. I do believe star alignments are informational but for a different reason and not for horoscopes. So, perhaps that's a new corollary in our understanding: Potential receivers can generate information from observations or data simply by imposing meaning upon them.Silver Asiatic
August 9, 2015
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KF Good clarification. Yes, I misread that. It's interesting. That definition starts from the receiver. When there is a receiver that understands something, then anything that could be understood by that receiver is information. So, information versus noise ... Noise is anything that is not capable of being understood as information by any receiver. I can see problems with that, but it's also very good.Silver Asiatic
August 9, 2015
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Popperian Interesting points and discussion.
If I write a message for the purpose of telling a the story of my life to a person who only speaks Russian, but I don’t know how to speak or write in Russian, the purpose for which I wrote that message is not sufficient for that message to be successful.
I'll object here. There are two purposes in that example. 1. To write the story of your life 2. To communicate that story to a particular person Information is an expression of purpose or intention (it seems to me so far). In fact, purpose is embedded into the expression. That's what makes it information versus noise. To fulfill purpose #1 above, you write your life's story -- and that can be in any language that you understand. Now, this remains information, even though it is not communicated. In fact, if you made up your own language, known only to you -- it remains accurate information on your life story. It is information solely because you have embedded intention or purpose into what you wrote. To fulfill purpose #2, you want to communicate your story to someone else. In my opinion, this goes beyond what information is in itself. For example, your Russian speaker can receive a message in English, so therefore no communication. However, the receiver has the capability to decipher the message. It's the same if you made up your own language. Any potential receiver could decipher it and discover the information (intention) embedded within.
If I received a book that I claimed to serve the purpose of allowing me to translate my life story in Russian, but it did not actually contain accurate translations, it would be unsuccessful as well. This is would the case even if author created the book with the intention of allowing me to do just that, but didn’t actually know how.
Whether the communication-loop from sender to receiver is successful is another matter. Information, purely as itself, does not need to intend to be communicated. Famous writers have personal notebooks that were not intended for anyone but themselves. Additionally, in your example, information can also be inaccurate or inconsistent. It may fail to communicate clearly (spelling errors or other errors). But it remains information, whether good or bad information, simply because purpose or intentionality was built into it. That's how we would separate information from noise. If we find no teleology in a sequence of observations, then there's no information. There is a significant objection that I can see to my own idea that information is purposeful: Do chemicals generate information? Here is where there's a difference between 'purpose' and 'intent'. With the idea of 'intent' it seems to indicate that whatever generated the information had a personal reason to do it. But that's not what it should mean in this case -- it means some underlying purpose or meaning. So, computers generate information. But does a computer 'intend' to do that? What it should mean is that the information a computer generates indicates a quality of purpose -- what we observe is purposeful because it contains meaning. We could say "it communicates meaning" and that's ok also except as above, the intention or purpose embedded in information is not necessarily to communicate (beyond the sender/originator) but to hold or preserve intention, meaning or purpose. We could say that an author's private notes intend to communicate to the author, but that's not really a communications-loop as such. It is communicated from the sender, to an information media, then back only to sender. In any case, I apologize if I sound more certain about all of this than I really am. These are just opinions that I'm exploring as we go along. I appreciate the discussion and the challenges -- with a chance to clarify the various concepts. I didn't address your point regarding knowledge because I'm not yet sure how it fits in. The difference between information and knowledge is important. But I don't quite have that yet. On the question of chemicals - I would say that chemicals display information, thus purpose.Silver Asiatic
August 9, 2015
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Popperian, if you cannot speak Russian, get a translator. In short go to a layercake stack process, pass down, across then up creating a virtual peer to peer link. Translation is part of the info flow etc process. KFkairosfocus
August 9, 2015
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SA: Note the subjunctive. I would suggest that if you have formed a concept it can be sent at least as some level of description as a message, or a sketch etc. Secondly, the restricted form, DATA as facts encoded in a representation (when organised in structured communicable patterns, info; when warranted and credibly true, knowledge . . . ) and useful towards decision, action etc, that is the basis for the world of computing, info or signal processing, communication, control and more. The restriction, DATA, is operative, in short. Hope that helps. KF PS: Anyone else have a prob where the you are live test is looping on incorrect answers, e.g. 9 * 2 = 18 is not an error?kairosfocus
August 9, 2015
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UB: File not found error on the gif. Site is under construction, access limited -- understandably. I obviously missed the window. Why not get a google docs account or dropbox etc for sharing, or set up a small blog? Or do a FYI post here at UD> I'd host it if you have not got posting power. KFkairosfocus
August 9, 2015
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@UB, No, I'm not saying your argument is circular. I'm trying to take my conjectured idea of what your argument might be seriously for the purpose of criticism. So we can make progress. It should conflict with your's in specific ways that I can discard as errors. I don't believe that is your argument, but I need somewhere to start. Merely saying it's wrong doesn't get us any closer. I'm looking for the delta between Shannon's theory and your theory, because in doing so that's how we make progress.Popperian
August 8, 2015
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@sliver Wikipedia:
“ . . that which would be communicated by a message if it were sent from a sender to a receiver capable of understanding the message. . . ”
However, Shannon's theory does not indicate the means by which the receiver knows how to physically distinguish messages. If the means was transmitted and received between the sender and receiver, that would meet the definition of information as defined be the theory itself, which makes it circular. UB's seems to mirror this in part of his argument. From an earlier comment.
If we live in a world where representations are flying about and there is no one, or no thing, that “knows” what they mean, I am not aware of it.
IOW, it seems to me that "Knowing what they mean" would be useful information. I.E. knowledge. And you could not send that to a receiver without it first knowing knowing that that message means, etc. That receivers know this is accepted as a given in Shannon's theory, despite the fact that it would itself be information. Yet, we know what messages mean. So, there has to be some other explanation for our ability to distinguish messages send from senders to receivers independent of information transfer. How this actually differs from the component missing in Shannon's theory is not clear yet. It seems to me, these criticisms could the same or mistaken for each other, and that further clarification would be useful before moving forward.
Information is the relationship that defines what “meaning” is. It’s teleological. Information is “for” something. It’s an expression of purpose.
If I write a message for the purpose of telling a the story of my life to a person who only speaks Russian, but I don't know how to speak or write in Russian, the purpose for which I wrote that message is not sufficient for that message to be successful. If I received a book that I claimed to serve the purpose of allowing me to translate my life story in Russian, but it did not actually contain accurate translations, it would be unsuccessful as well. This is would the case even if author created the book with the intention of allowing me to do just that, but didn't actually know how. In this sense, knowledge is independent of anyone's belief or intention. This is why I keep returning to the idea of Knowledge as useful information that plays a causal role in it being retained / preserved when embedded in a storage medium. It solves a problem.Popperian
August 8, 2015
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I read it more carefully and I've got it now ... please disregard previous.Silver Asiatic
August 8, 2015
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UB Thanks for that one-page but detailed overview. I started out pretty good but I couldn't get past this: "The physical conditions required to translate an informational medium into physical effects ..." I don't get how an informational medium is translated -- that is, I don't get what that means. There are physical conditions, a medium, and physical effects. Is the medium non-physical? Actually, even before that I didn't quite get how what is described is a physical process entirely since it involves information which has the non-physical aspect of meaning. Just some comments from an interested reader - not meant as criticism.Silver Asiatic
August 8, 2015
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Pop, You start by suggesting that my argument is circular in the same way that you say Shannon’s theory of communication is circular. In the course of making this claim, you betray several misconceptions about my argument. I point out some of your misconceptions, and suggest that you set aside your comparison to Shannon’s theory until you understand my argument. Shannon’s work removes the meaning from communication in order to focus on the transmission of that communication. My observations are focused elsewhere – what are the material conditions involved when meaning is communicated. You now tell me that a comparison to Shannon is the only path to progress, whatever that means to you. Thus, you are needlessly going in circles. And you don’t need me for that. *** If it helps you at all, I will leave this link up for a short amount of time. It’s clipped from an upcoming website dedicated to the subject. An Easy Understanding of SemiosisUpright BiPed
August 8, 2015
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The good ol' UD Glossary helps ...
Information — Wikipedia, with some reorganization, is apt: “ . . that which would be communicated by a message if it were sent from a sender to a receiver capable of understanding the message . . . . In terms of data, it can be defined as a collection of facts [i.e. as represented or sensed in some format] from which conclusions may be drawn [and on which decisions and actions may be taken].”
First thought ... "... that which would be ... if it were sent". Can a person generate information that cannot be sent to a receiver? I would think so. I generate sensory impressions and therefore thoughts that I cannot express. As far as "a collection of facts" ... even fictional ideas are informational. Information is the relationship that defines what "meaning" is. It's teleological. Information is "for" something. It's an expression of purpose.Silver Asiatic
August 8, 2015
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I always find this an interesting topic because I hardly ever understand what either side is saying, as in this case. That keeps it fresh. :-) And I'm willing to be educated, so thank you.Silver Asiatic
August 8, 2015
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