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John West explains why Discovery Institute will start speaking up about science totalitarianism around COVID

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It’s a powerful piece so read it all. Here are some snippets:

COVID-19 has been used as the rationale for an extraordinary expansion of government power in the name of science: lengthy “lockdowns” of businesses and churches, vaccination mandates, government-imposed discrimination against people based on their medical choices, government-encouraged censorship of dissenting scientific views, and more. Perhaps you support some of these policies as necessary. Perhaps you don’t. But even if you support each and every one of the policies adopted, you ought to be concerned by how they have been imposed. Almost none of the policies were enacted by legislative bodies after an open public debate. Almost all of the policies were enacted unilaterally by executive branch officials asserting emergency powers or by unelected public health officials immune from public accountability.

COVID has shown government officials how to do an end-run around the normal system of checks and balances. They simply need to invoke “science” and declare an emergency — and then extend their emergency orders time and again. Anyone who dares challenge the emergency orders will be stigmatized as “anti-science,” or they will be told they aren’t scientists so they have no right to be heard. Regardless of your view of specific anti-COVID policies, policymaking during the pandemic has set a terrible precedent for the future…

Lost in current debates is the fact that much so-called “misinformation” targeted for suppression actually represents legitimate differences of opinion held by scientists and policy experts. Other pieces of so-called “misinformation” are in reality true facts that those in charge would rather not be forced to address.

For example, it is fact, not fiction, that the government’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) has had more adverse reaction reports filed for the COVID-19 vaccines than for any other vaccine since VAERS started collecting data in 1990. Indeed, as of mid-January, 55 percent of all adverse reactions, 59 percent of all hospitalizations, and 71 percent of all deaths reported to VAERS are from the COVID-19 vaccines. What these data mean is subject to legitimate differences of opinion. But the fact that the data exist is unquestionable. Yet if you spend much time discussing VAERS in social media or on YouTube, you are likely to be banned. John West, “The Rise of Totalitarian Science, 2022 Edition” at Evolution News and Science Today (January 31, 2022)

And if you go along with all that, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

In Canada, the natives* are very restless indeed. Lockdown protests have been going on for days. Few reports of violence, just large numbers of people fed up with crackpot medical totalitarianism:

  • That’s from the national anthem: “O Canada, our home and native land”

You may also wish to read: Royal Society: Don’t censor misinformation; it makes things worse While others demand crackdowns on “fake news,” the Society reminds us that the history of science is one of error correction. It’s a fact that much COVID news later thought to need correction was in fact purveyed by official sources, not blogs or Facebook or Twitter accounts.

Comments
Querius - thank you for retrieving that @113. Interesting and useful interpretations - I hope that was a help for Ram.Silver Asiatic
February 15, 2022
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Hnormon42 @118, You raise good questions. To get answers to these and other questions, I've personally found it helpful to go to several sources and to learn more about the history, culture, and context of the scriptures. One needs to recognize hyperbole, double and even triple entendres in Hebrew, analogies, and common figures of speech. When my family first immigrated to the U.S., I spoke no English and my mom only some. My dad once saw my mom standing at a street corner. When he asked her why, she explained, " My friend said, 'See you later,' so I'm waiting for her." Language is tricky. Translations between languages are imprecise--words can larger and narrower ranges of meanings and can also convey connotations. For example, the word "collaboration" does not convey the same negative connotation as the word, "collaborator." In my own study, I reference the literal Greek, Hebrew, and occasional Aramaic. These involve the Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and even the Syriac Peshitta in a few cases. I also compare the different English-language versions of the Bible. Also helpful are extra-biblical writings from before around 300 A.D. (aka C.E. or Common Era). I try to read these sources without preconceptions, without forcing an ideology, or finding support for any agenda. I let the scriptures speak and I listen and ask questions. These will often illuminate what was meant. I've found some things to be literal, others symbolic, or metaphorical . . . and often all of these at the same time to some degree. Jews recognize four levels of meaning in the scriptures (PRDS). Here's a description: http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat1.htm How would you describe a military tank to a tribal person in the Amazon so they could understand it? It's as large as tribal lodge, as hard as stone, as dangerous as a jaguar, and it's mounted by a warrior with a spear that spits out fire and sends out stones that kill people. It drinks rivers of tree sap, constantly roars like all the men shouting all at once, and sends out smoke like a fire. Ok, good. Now explain the nature of light: where light comes from, photons, waves and wavelength, color (hue, saturation, lightness), eyesight, reflection, refraction, dispersion, interference patterns, shadows (umbra and penumbra), rainbows, why the sun appears yellow and the sky appears blue, lasers . . . So, most teachings in the Bible are pretty straightforward, but some other things can be difficult to understand or ambiguous (sometimes purposely so). Here's a good description of the words associated the topic of hell. https://thebiblesays.com/commentary/dig-deeper/gehenna-hell-hades/ Hope this helps, -QQuerius
February 14, 2022
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Silver Asiatic and Querius Thank you for your responses. I guess when I talked about "traditional concepts" of hell, I was talking about the fiery hell you get from a literal reading of the bible or the fiery and cold narakas you find in Buddhism and Hinduism. I rarely see anyone who take these literally. I remember that years ago a prominent evangelist argued that since the book of James speaks of the tongue as being on fire of hell, that the fire could be taken as something other than literal. But later on he started moving back toward a literal reading. I just have to reiterate that this subject causes a lot of tension in people and most theologians feel the need to move to non literal interpretations.hnorman42
February 14, 2022
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Hnorman42 @115, The subject of hell has been debated in its details, but the Bible is clear only on a few points but ambiguous on the rest. As I've tried to point out, there are some interesting arguments and several confounding factors that leave us in doubt. Some people believe in the immortality of all souls, others are annihilationists, some believe in a temporary purgatory, and some are "bug-zapper-ists" (i.e. short pops versus long, juicy sizzles). Jesus taught his disciples not to fear the first death, but rather the second death for those who reject God's forgiveness and are judged with perfect fairness by the Creator. The Bible refers to hell in terms of a burning garbage dump in a valley outside of Jerusalem, something else called "the bottomless pit" (now what could that be?), and something else called "the lake of fire." The lake of fire was originally prepared only for the devil and his angels and some day death and hell will be destroyed in it as well. But let's get back to confounding factors. For one thing, we now know that space and time are related (spacetime) just as mass and energy are related (mass-energy). Theoretical physicists believe that in each case, you can't have one without the other. Direct experiments show that time is affected by gravity and velocity by distorting spacetime (or vice versa), but no one confidently knows what time actually is. So maybe we can appreciate why the Bible seems ambiguous on this point. So, for example, how does time pass in the spiritual world? I don't know. One can speculate that this could be similar to a state machine: https://www.itemis.com/en/yakindu/state-machine/documentation/user-guide/overview_what_are_state_machines It's possible that state transitions can require time such as when a dice is rolling or be instantaneous such as with entangled particles (or conceptually as in a formula-driven spreadsheet or the "equals sign" as in 2 + 2 = 4). The bottom line is that no one knows for sure. Since this post isn't meant to be a Bible study, I'll leave it to you to research biblical references to judgment, hell, the bottomless pit, and the lake of fire. You can then draw a reasonable conclusion from your insights. -QQuerius
February 13, 2022
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hNorman I would hope to defend the traditional Christian concept of eternal torment. That's what I tried to do so far, anyway. I bring in contemporary psychology to understand the nature of culpability, to some degree. But it's always been that way. To be guilty of sin, one must be deliberate. Classical theology speaks of "invincible ignorance" which applies to people who did their best but had very limited understanding. It's not just Christian or Jewish teaching that supports the doctrine of Hell. It can be found in Islam and Naraka is the doctrine of Hell in Hinduism.Silver Asiatic
February 13, 2022
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This debate over eternal torment is very interesting. It seems many people are uncomfortable with it because no one here is defending traditional concepts of eternal torment. The primary argument appears to be over whether the scriptures support it.hnorman42
February 13, 2022
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Ram always ghosts out after I post Tovia's debate where he was by most accounts soundly beaten...to the point where he will not debate him anymore and doesn't publicize that debate at all. Jesus is the messiah. It can't be anyone else.zweston
February 12, 2022
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Silver Asiatic, Apparently the previous post was reorganized and I can no longer find my comments. Fortunately, I saved some of them (UD sometimes fails to respond when I post, so these are backups). I'd asked the following two questions to which only Ram responded:
1. Imagine a normal curve centered at the origin. What’s the area under the positive half of the normal curve? 2. As you know, the presence of gravity affects the passage of time. So let’s say someone falls into a black hole, which in this case lasts only a few seconds before they’re “spaghettified.” How does this event appear from an observer at a safe distance?
Both of Ram's answers were correct: 0.5 for the first question and for the second one, that times passes at different rates--the observer would see the person seemingly frozen for a long period of time before disappearing. My response was as follows:
1. Correct. Notice that the curve is INFINITE but the total area under the curve is finite. This same curve might be the absolutely precisely Just punishment for someone based on what their deeds deserve, either massive for some people or small of other people. There are several indications in scripture that punishments will vary to satisfy Justice–they not all alike. However, this doesn’t mean that the scriptures state that the punishment itself is eternal, only that the non-existence after judgment is permanent. As evidence, I would refer to Revelation, where it states that both death and hell are also cast into the lake of fire. Surely it’s obvious that this statement doesn’t suggest that death and hell are “tortured” forever–only that they cease to exist. 2. Also correct, except that before disappearing, someone falling into a black hole will seem frozen in time to an external observer at a safe distance. From the perspective of the person falling in, it’s over in a few seconds. Both the seemingly forever and a few seconds are true. From any perspective, it can be termed eternal and irreversible.
Ram asked me to answer his question:
Your turn: Is the eternal torture your concept of God metes out never-ending or not from the perspective of the tortured?
My reply was a follows:
The shortest, but inadequate answer is no. So let me qualify my assertion by saying that words are important: “torture” isn’t justice and God is able to provide perfect Justice to those who demand it or perfect Mercy to those who’ve truly repented of their ignoble acts and asked for God’s Mercy. I’ve done so and continue to do so. The people described as sobbing at the time of Judgment, are doing so because they see how loving their Creator has been in attempting to save as many people as possible of his dying creation by means of Himself being tortured to death, limiting himself only to preserving the free will of the precious people that he created in His image. Jesus termed their demise as “the second death,” which sadly includes their spirit. As Einstein noted in his General Theory of Relativity, the perspective of the observer is key, and in a way this is also true in this context. I hope this helps.
Note that I'm not claiming any of these interpretations as necessarily correct, but only that they are possible within a biblical context. -QQuerius
February 12, 2022
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Thanks, Querius. When you get a chance, could you kindly post a link to the thread you referenced in 98? That is a great point about how time is relative.Silver Asiatic
February 12, 2022
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Silver Asiatic @108, Brilliantly summarized! Thank you. -QQuerius
February 12, 2022
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Ram, Tovia believes in hell. You completely dismissed my previous clip and links (can someone dig those back up) Here is Dr. Brown highlighting Tovia's dishonesty. One of them is lying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=154&v=U5-TJPz6Y94&feature=emb_logo Tovia won't even post the debate between he and Dr. Brown...but Dr. Brown will... I wonder why? here is the debate though (2.5 hours) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0XQmbeGEZ8 Ram, Go to 35 minutes... Tovia says that Gentiles go to hell. "Playing with the fires of hell" So, not sure what your beef with Hell is.zweston
February 12, 2022
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Querius
Ooh, I just LOVE left-handed compliments!
Ha ha - Ram was doing a nice imitation of Don Rickles there.Silver Asiatic
February 12, 2022
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Ram @ 103 Just following up - you're posing the problem in a narrow view. But the concept needs to be refined. You repeat the phrase "eternal torture" and then say it's evil for God to do this. So, you present this as if there's an evil Being that is torturing people forever. Sure, if you want to call that concept evil, I'll fully agree. It's clearly contradictory, since God cannot do evil to people, considering that by definition he is the fullness of perfection and goodness, justice and truth. So a god that just "tortures" people forever wouldn't make a lot of sense. But that's not what historic Christianity teaches. Evil is not an active force. It's not an agent. It's the absence of good - so it's a deprivation. Every person is free to deprive themselves of the presence of God. That's where pain and misery comes from. Loneliness, sadness, feeling of loss - they are effects. God is not actively torturing people. He's just respecting freedom. Love is eternal. The narcissist who loves himself more than anything else, will do that forever after death. That's hell. God is not torturing him. You can disagree with this idea, but it's best to refine your concept so you're aiming at the right target. "Eternal torture" is a loaded-phrase that misses the point.Silver Asiatic
February 12, 2022
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Ram @103,
I had a better opinion of you, but . . .
Something tells me you know better, unlike the rest of the nincompoops around here.
Ooh, I just LOVE left-handed compliments! I'll add yours to my collection. Here are a few additional generic ones that you can use:
What a disappointment. I thought an intelligent person like yourself wouldn't resort to such a ridiculous argument.
You know, I was really impressed by your insights until now.
You almost had me convinced before you resorted to this gibberish.
Do you have any more of these that you can share? OBVIOUSLY Adonai doesn't torture, but judges a person in perfect righteousness. Each person will pay fully for their own sins to a smallest yod and tiniest stroke extension in Torah unless they come to repentance as David did because Adonai is merciful to those who repent and ask for mercy through the blood of the Lamb. You should already know this from the Tanakh. Can you find it in Yirmiyahu chapter 11 and Yeshayahu chapter 53? -QQuerius
February 11, 2022
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Silver Asiatic @105, Yes, it's a shame that people are so deceived! God loves them so very much, but He won't override their free will decisions. I might have mentioned that in college, I once accompanied a college buddy visiting a friend in a nursing home. This man had cancer and knew he didn't have long to live. I asked him why he didn't want to take the opportunity to get right with God before he passed on. His answer? "I have too much to give up." A few days later, he was dead. -QQuerius
February 11, 2022
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Querius - thanks. I have known people who willfully choose the misery of a life in opposition to God. I hope and pray that they change, but why would God force anyone to have to spend an eternity with Him when that is not what they want to do? It's a strange notion of God - that he will compel people against their will to spend their eternity with Him. That's totally unjust and unworthy God. One thing that is known about Hell is that everyone who goes there knows that's exactly where they belong. God is the perfection of justice. That's just a basic attribute. His mercy grants forgiveness to sinners, but there are people who don't want to be forgiven. That's where perfect justice cannot be compromised.Silver Asiatic
February 11, 2022
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Ram - have you read the New Testament?Silver Asiatic
February 11, 2022
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Silver Asiatic: For some people, being with God is the worst imaginable torture. They’d choose anything other than that. I had a better opinion of you, but you just put yourself into the the cartoon-land of apologetics for your view. Eternal torture is so evil that you have to make up crazy explanations why it is justifiable for God to do it. Eternal torture is evil. You know it is. Something tells me you know better, unlike the rest of the nincompoops around here. --Ramram
February 11, 2022
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Silver Asiatic @10, Good points all! I can imagine someone choosing to spend eternity separated from the love of God out of such anger and hatred that eternity anywhere else would be preferable to the "torture" of being in close fellowship and union with Adonai. Notice the absence of any cognitive value in the stock reply that I received. Here's the format:
"You’re (stupid, delusional, irrelevant, absurd, a jackass). Your “argument” is (stupid, delusional, irrelevant, pathetic, absurd) and I (clearly, expertly, brilliantly, concisely, definitively) explained why."
As most everyone knows, when someone responds this way, it's a clear indication that they've lost the argument. -QQuerius
February 11, 2022
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Ram
Nobody would choose infinite torture for themselves.
For some people, being with God is the worst imaginable torture. They'd choose anything other than that.
If a given individual tasted the bliss of being in union with Bliss Itself,
Gaining that taste comes at a very high cost - as anything precious does. It's the cost of sacrificing lesser blisses - and most people do not want to.
and had a true and accurate understanding of the possibilities of their eternal state, nobody would choose infinite torture, and nobody would resist infinite Bliss
If I told someone that drug addiction leads to misery, self-hatred and a hellish amount of suffering - would that be enough for them to not abuse drugs? What happens is that people taste the bliss of the drug and very many will prefer that, no matter how much misery it entails afterwards, to living clean and sober. It's the same even in spiritual terms. A person can experience the joy of God - but not want to pay the price to achieve it fully. So, they find cheap substitutes. God is not a cheap substitute for things. He deserves respect and admiration. A person must show himself worthy of greatness and goodness - by striving to imitate. The greatest torture of Hell is to be without God. But as above, people prefer to love themselves rather than surrender that love for someone greater.Silver Asiatic
February 11, 2022
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Ram No. This is idiotic. Nobody would choose infinite torture for themselves.
For you is a torture not to be hateful. You know that is evil but you do it anyway .
If a given individual tasted the bliss of being in union with Bliss Itself, and had a true and accurate understanding of the possibilities of their eternal state, nobody would choose infinite torture, and nobody would resist infinite Bliss.
You can 't taste bliss when you are a hateful person because bliss is given to people who are doing what God loves not what satan loves. Satan loves your hate.
Get real. You people are beyond stupid. And stop believing monstrous lies about the real Creator.
Well your characterisation should go to the person who "educated" you so well.Lieutenant Commander Data
February 11, 2022
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Querius, You're delusional. Your "argument" is irrelevant and I clearly explained why. --Ramram
February 11, 2022
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Ram, Have you already forgotten the exercise that I led you through in a previous thread? - In it, I demonstrated how eternity can be interpreted simply as permanent and non-redeemable. - In it, you helped me demonstrate how eternal punishment is not necessarily infinite. - In it, you confirmed that time is not absolute, but is relative to the observer . . . the experience of one person falling into a black hole is over in a few seconds, but in the experience of distant observer, the process is extremely long, perhaps eternal, before the image vanishes. And now you claim, "You people are beyond stupid." Shall we go through it again? Yeshua didn't quote from the B'rit Chadashah because it wasn't written yet. Yeshua quoted ONLY from the Tanakh. If you know the Tanakh, you will recognize his words. Or have you forgotten it as well? -QQuerius
February 10, 2022
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Silver Asiatic: The gates of Hell are locked on the inside. No. This is idiotic. Nobody would choose infinite torture for themselves. If a given individual tasted the bliss of being in union with Bliss Itself, and had a true and accurate understanding of the possibilities of their eternal state, nobody would choose infinite torture, and nobody would resist infinite Bliss. Get real. You people are beyond stupid. And stop believing monstrous lies about the real Creator. --Ramram
February 10, 2022
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Silver Asiatic @94,
The gates of Hell are locked on the inside. They hate it there but they will not leave. It’s like the drug addict who chooses the misery of addiction versus the freedom of sobriety.
Good point. Reminds me of some of the writings of Sadhu Sundar Singh (1889 - 1929), who had a profound effect on my life during my college years. He wrote a parable of someone in hell who demands to let into heaven. His request is granted, but when exposed to the light of purity and glory of God, immediately became so ashamed that he dove back down into the darkest depths of hell to hide. Notice that once again, there are no takers on my questions, which will relate to perspectives on "eternal torment" as they repeatedly bring up in numerous threads. Revealing. Jesus told a parable about one man's pathetic accusation against God (Mattityahu 25:24) during the Judgment and how God answered him. It was a pretty good excuse, but it collapsed in the light of God's observation about him. -QQuerius
February 9, 2022
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Zweston: Ram, did you ever answer about the Tovia Singer lies? And how he talked about Hell? I haven’t checked back on that thread. Give me a link --Ramram
February 9, 2022
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SB
God knows that they are deliberately choosing eternal torment – (God knows that they are deliberately risking eternal torment) ,,,and will always choose it no matter how long they are there, (and some, not all, will prefer to remain in Hell forever rather than be with God forever, while others would prefer to be annihilated)
They deliberately choose it but they often disagree that they should be there. By the "gravity" of the motion of their own decisions and soul - they're "weighed down" and can never be free from that, because they choose to keep their enslaving behavior. Usually, the person who ends in Hell says "I haven't sinned". This then gets turned against the Giver of Life , saying: "You are unjust". The gates of Hell are locked on the inside. They hate it there but they will not leave. It's like the drug addict who chooses the misery of addiction versus the freedom of sobriety.Silver Asiatic
February 9, 2022
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"Eternal torment" has nothing to do with time or other material dimension of this universe . It's purely a moral dimension . You can't mix time with morality ,time doesn't have a moral dimension . It's a self-defeater statement to say that "Eternal torment is evil" because eternal means outside time, time dimension has no logical/factual meaning in an eternal concept . Therefore to say that the criminals are punished too long for their crime has no meaning in an environment where time do not exist .Lieutenant Commander Data
February 9, 2022
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I'd like to point out that "eternal torment" is a subject that I addressed in a different thread with several questions that only Ram had the courage to answer--the others ran away. Despite the perspectives that I provided then, I can see that digital amnesia immediately sets in once a new thread is raised and this topic predictably once again emerges with boring regularity irrespective of the OP and reset to zero each time. So, I guess I'll need to simply rinse and repeat each time. Here we go . . .
1. Imagine a normal curve centered at the origin. What’s the area under the positive half of the normal curve? 2. As you know, the presence of gravity affects the passage of time. So let’s say someone falls into a black hole, which in this case lasts only a few seconds before they’re “spaghettified.” How does this event appear from an observer at a safe distance?
-QQuerius
February 8, 2022
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Ram, Your silence on Tovia is noted.zweston
February 8, 2022
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