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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
Only because the cowardly losers over on atbc keep looking in. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.ET
January 13, 2018
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We did it!!! We are now the most popular thread at UD in the last thirty days.JSmith
January 13, 2018
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I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.Upright BiPed
January 10, 2018
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UB
Is that right? My guess is that you don’t work much in research either.
You are correct. It has been almost a year since I published my last research paper in a peer reviewed journal. I should do more.JSmith
January 10, 2018
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When I finally understand a concept that is so simple that it should have been obvious, I often slap my forehead as well.
Is that right? My guess is that you don't work much in research either.Upright BiPed
January 10, 2018
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In a Darwinian world "fairness" is an unwarranted limitation. So it is only by abandoning a materialistic, Darwinian world can we ever hope to get any discussion on morals. In a Darwinian world it is fair and just that the stronger take from the weak. It is fair and just that the weak dwindle in numbers and eventually leave the gene pool. It is fair and just to do whatever you can to leave more viable offspring. Only by abandoning that and ride the coat-tails of most religions can we hope to have a discussion on morals.ET
January 10, 2018
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UB
— facepalm —
When I finally understand a concept that is so simple that it should have been obvious, I often slap my forehead as well. Don’t worry, it is nothing to be ashamed of.JSmith
January 10, 2018
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-- facepalm --Upright BiPed
January 10, 2018
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UB, I never said that fairness was an objective standard. But it is a moral value and it is well defined. As such, we can judge societies on their fairness. My claim was that those societies that we judge to be fair, by and large, take the moral values of their members into account when assigning rights. Let’s test this. Rank the following countries in order of fairness, as you would judge them: Canada, North Korea Norway United States China Iran Switzerland Saudi Arabia Now rank them as to the extent you think each took their citizens’ moral values into account when assigning rights.JSmith
January 10, 2018
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I don’t think you grasp the issue. You appear to believe you can make your point by adding yet another explanation of a fair society.
JS: Here is a model of society, there are no objective standards in it (err, except that everyone has to play fair). UB: You just added a standard to your model. JS: No I didn’t, a fair society takes everyone into account. UB: You have your thumb on the scale. JS: No really, in a fair society they go around and ask everyone what they think and sing songs.
Don’t sweat it. Pretending there are no objective standards in the way mankind treats its members is a tough business to be in. cheers...Upright BiPed
January 10, 2018
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UB, we can go back and forth all day saying this is true, no it's not. But that does not change the fact that a society that we judge to be a fair one is one that takes the moral values of its members into account when assigning or changing rights. Although most of society would agree that fairness is a moral value, it also has a clear definition on which we can make a judgement. Fairness: impartial and just treatment or behavior without favoritism or discrimination. We can judge a society on these grounds based on what rights they choose to extend to all members in the society. And I would argue that most societies that pass this sniff test have taken the moral values of their members into account when they assigned those rights. It is not about always getting it "right", it is about the process and the intent. I am more likely to go along with something I disagree with, although reluctantly, if I know that my views were given a fair hearing.JSmith
January 10, 2018
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UB: You can’t judge the model in that way. You can’t say there is no objective standard in the model, then impose a foreign standard. When you “presuppose a fair society” you establish a standard while arguing that none exists. But sure it does; it’s right there in your formulation. You have your thumb on the scale. JS: This is not true.
Yes, it is. And instead of removing your foreign standard from the model, you just spent 200 words explicitly justifying it. Oh well.Upright BiPed
January 10, 2018
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UB
If we pull you back out of the model, then we could just as easily re-state your words: “In an unfair and irrational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights.” It would make just as much sense (basically meaningless), and I doubt that’s the target you were shooting for.
This, sadly, is also true. But it would assume that the society does not consider fairness to be a moral value. or intentionally decides to ignore it. Which, again, is sometimes sadly true.
You can’t judge the model in that way. You can’t say there is no objective standard in the model, then impose a foreign standard. When you “presuppose a fair society” you establish a standard while arguing that none exists.
This is not true. Most people in a society will share many of the same values (e.g.., freedom, fairness, etc.). If a society does not use the commonly held moral values to inform the assigning of legal rights, then it would not be judged by those in the society to be a fair society. The more commonly held values are easy. It is in situations where there is not general consensus where the balancing act takes place. For example, there would be few that would argue with a society assigning its members the right to life, a right not to be arbitrarily jailed, a right not to be denied employment due to race, etc. But what about the right of the woman to abort a fetus? Or the right for same sex couples to marry? No matter how society decides, not everybody will agree with this. But a fair society will be one that took everyone's moral values into account when deciding on rights. An unfair society will be one that ignores the values of a large segment of that society, such as ignoring the values of blacks, or women, or homosexuals, or religious people, etc. And before someone jumps in with the might makes right nonsense, fair does not mean majority.JSmith
January 10, 2018
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A quick observation for JSmith:
My comment presupposes a fair society and claims that they, as a fair society...
It seems to me that you've put yourself into the model in an attempt to make sense of it --- i.e. to make it palatable once you remove any objective constraints. If we pull you back out of the model, then we could just as easily re-state your words: "In an unfair and irrational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights." It would make just as much sense (basically meaningless), and I doubt that’s the target you were shooting for. You can't judge the model in that way. You can't say there is no objective standard in the model, then impose a foreign standard. When you “presuppose a fair society” you establish a standard while arguing that none exists. But sure it does; it’s right there in your formulation. You have your thumb on the scale. Whether or not that changes anything for you, who knows.Upright BiPed
January 9, 2018
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I came by to see, and it is clear that the tone of this discussion has long since been tainted.kairosfocus
January 9, 2018
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JSmith, Simpering Coward is still languishing at second. Please do all you can to raise it to first place.JSmith
January 9, 2018
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OA
I signed up to engage in interesting conversations about intelligent design, evolution, and the origin of life. I can’t blame anyone else if I let myself get sucked into whatever this is. But I’m closing the tab and running away. Anyone who wishes may feel free to say that I ran away, because that’s exactly what I’m doing.
OldAndrew, I for one will miss your voice of reason. They are few and far between here. I wish you and your family well in your future endeavours.JSmith
January 9, 2018
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How about “Discussions concerning morality with JSmith”?
That would be such a civil thing to do. Not having done so speaks more than most of the discussion. I signed up to engage in interesting conversations about intelligent design, evolution, and the origin of life. I can't blame anyone else if I let myself get sucked into whatever this is. But I'm closing the tab and running away. Anyone who wishes may feel free to say that I ran away, because that's exactly what I'm doing.OldAndrew
January 9, 2018
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And from the simpering coward:
And, from the theatre of the absurd:
Let me see- it isn't absurd to say that living organisms arose via physics and chemistry, but it is absurd to describe a deadly, non-bloodborne, pathogen that is carried only by women and children because men's testosterone (for example) makes it inert. Do you want to know what is really absurd? Morals in a materialistic world. And even more absurd is rationality and logic in a materialistic world.ET
January 9, 2018
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And, from the theatre of the absurd:
ET: Wow, such a devastating refutation! Women and children are the carriers of the disease and men are not. The hormonal changes from male child to adult squelch the disease such that it is no longer a threat to anyone. It isn’t necessarily a bloodborne pathogen.
JSmith
January 9, 2018
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Wow, such a devastating refutation! Women and children are the carriers of the disease and men are not. The hormonal changes from male child to adult squelch the disease such that it is no longer a threat to anyone. It isn't necessarily a bloodborne pathogen.ET
January 9, 2018
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ET
JS: Are there any circumstances under which it is morally acceptable to intentionally kill the wives and infants of a defeated enemy? ET: Yes- disease comes to mind. They carry something that they are immune to but you and yours are not. JS: Are you being serious? They just defeated their enemy in close combat using swords, spears and knives. ET: They were NOT fighting the women and children in close combat.
Epidemiology is not your strong suit, is it?JSmith
January 9, 2018
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jdk
Thanks, KF. I see. If all possible websites are counted (250 million) then lots of active websites will be in the top 1%.
And it has a trust ranking of 1
Lacks most basic contact information; recognized as "listed" but with the lowest possible score.
JSmith
January 9, 2018
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For the record: JS asked:
Are there any circumstances under which it is morally acceptable to intentionally kill the wives and infants of a defeated enemy?
Yes- disease comes to mind. They carry something that they are immune to but you and yours are not. They were NOT fighting the women and children in close combat.ET
January 9, 2018
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In a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights.
Who decides what is fair and rational? If Darwinism/ Neo-Darwinism is right then murder, incest, rape would be fair and rational whereas abortion would be seriously frowned upon.ET
January 9, 2018
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JS:
Are you being serious? They just defeated their enemy in close combat using swords, spears and knives.
So what? How can anyone who thinks that life came from the interactions of matter and energy be rational and logical when said position is the opposite?
Or they can listen to someone who has claimed for over three years that wavelength = frequency. I will leave them to decide.
I say that is far better than someone who claims that water stretches the wavelength, that water turns into ice via some mysterious molecular code and who cannot follow the context of a discussion. Have you ever been right about anything? Not that I have seenET
January 9, 2018
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For the record, my vote remains to change the name of the thread. How about "Discussions concerning morality with JSmith"?tribune7
January 9, 2018
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Being in favor of large public, government run health care may make you feel good about yourself, but the long term consequences are not good for those stuck in the systems. British Socialized Health Care... 50,000 surgeries canceled amid Third World Conditions
In Staffordshire, one senior consultant said vulnerable patients were now being treated in “third world conditions” amid mass overcrowding.
The Army doctor, who has done three tours of Afghanistan commanding a field hospital, tweeted a personal apology to patients: Dr Richard Fawcett @docfawcett As an A&E consultant @UHNM_NHS I personally apologise to the people of stoke for the 3rd world conditions of the dept due to #overcrowding pic.twitter.com/HW5JR8PSJ2 3:38 AM - Jan 2, 2018
Again, advocating for public tax funded care may feel good for those who seek to save humanity through large government systems, but not for those who use it. The consequences of government involvement by largely unseen public bureaucrats are rise of cost, lack of care, failure of innovation, and eventual abuses of elderly and poor by an overwhelmed system. A system not designed to care, but designed to do least as bureaucrats get a lovely pension plan. And are rarely if ever fired for incompetence or malfeasance. We have direct evidence of these system failures and abuses in America. The VA is your poster child for Government run disaster. As our Vets died waiting, waiting, waiting for care just to get an appointment to make more appointments. It was not until the new administration stepped in and allowed competition to allow our Vets access to private health facilities did it begin to get better. And the new admin began firing bureaucrats. Vets stopped dying due to VA corruption by faceless, uncaring bureaucrats. While it makes you feel good to say universal health care. It's a big lie. It's not universal for one. Eventually it turns into universal death wait care. The waiting of the aged, the weak, the poor upon a faceless system that refuses to correct problems. Because they answer to no one, certainly not to patients. And if not for this election, the failed system would've most likely stayed in place with more misery and death for our Vets in the failed VA system. It's very much like the failed, unsafe public schools for the poor, where largely black families and other minorities are never allowed freedoms the politicians have. The same politicians that rule over the poor in places like Chicago become rich off the political, government system. And they do not sent their children to the failed schools in their own districts. Yet the poor are stripped of these very freedoms they have every right to under our Constitution. Not just education, but a Choice of education. Decades of government bureaucracy, failure, fraud and abuse of tax dollars ensure children remain forever in a spiral of confusion, poor education if any, high dropout rates and failure to transition to college or jobs. Where gangs, violence rules the streets and kids have no alternative because politicians refuse to open up School Choice alternatives. That's big government solutions where people are more enslaved to the system than set free from it. Where each new generation is sent through failed systems over and over again, creating an underclass of people, locked in depression, failure and dependency. Having a one size fits all Government solution ultimately leads to failure for the many and government security for the few. Where power is kept in the few hands of politicians and bureaucrat elites that make decisions that the poor cannot overcome. Our Founders new centralization of government power was not good, therefor advocated Limited government in favor of Federalism and States Rights. So that innovation and ingenuity would naturally surface among the people, businesses and free markets in local towns, cities and states. This is what generates ideas, what forces people to be better by competition of ideas and solutions. Where the government is not an enforcer of one-size fits all. But an arbiter that is independent to allow ideas to flourish, not stifle them as the great OZ from on high in DC. Behind cloaked rooms and red tape. As a result of big governance we now have over $20 trillion in debt. We are building the financial collapse for future generations that will make the last financial meltdown look like a summer rain.DATCG
January 9, 2018
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F/N: Let us observe an exchange above:
[JS:] My comment presupposes a fair society and claims that they, as a fair society, would base their policies on moral values. [Trib:] What determines a “fair society”?
Notice, how we almost automatically assume moral government in our argument? This reflects how persuasion hinges on duties to truth, sound reasoning, fairness etc. And that goes beyond mere subjective perception. Speaking of, let us clip again:
[JS, 347:] And where have I said that good and evil don’t exist in the subjective morality realm? I realize that some say that right and wrong, good and evil, don’t exist. But when they say this they are referring to them not existing in the objective sense. There is no prohibition of them in the subjective sense. [KF, 349:] good and evil existing “in the subjective morality realm” comes across as a synonym for, imagination, with shadings of delusion. [Trib, 352:] You really have to work on your understanding of the definitions of words and the implications of how you use them. Good and evil would exist in the “subjective morality realm” only in the opinion of the subject and only the subject would be bound by it. Objective morality applies to all and binds all. This might help you understand it: https://www.diffen.com/difference/Objective_vs_Subjective
Do we see where we are heading? KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2018
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JDK, notice, where the BBC is in the scale. The result confers a sobering responsibility for discussion here. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2018
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