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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
OldAndrew But history suggests that the morals people practice matter more than whether they consider those morals to objective or not. Can't argue that point, but culture matters. A culture that teaches protect the weak and helpless and love your neighbor is going to be much more pleasant than one that says "only the strong should survive, crush your inferiors".tribune7
January 1, 2018
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Tribune7, I happen to believe that morals are objective. But history suggests that the morals people practice matter more than whether they consider those morals to objective or not. If someone throws me in a pit I don't care what they think about the objectivity or eternity of their morals. If someone is going to pull me out of the pit I care even less. One poster quoted scripture regarding conscience - unbelievers who act as though under law. If we believe - as I do - that their conscience originates with God, perhaps we should show a little more respect for their morality, whether or not they acknowledge its source. Morals wothout humility are hypocrisy.OldAndrew
January 1, 2018
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OldAndrew But it’s absurd to lay the holocaust at the feet of atheists in nations filled with churches. It's not about whether the nations are filled with churches but whether the churches in the nations are filled. As Nietzsche famously noted, they weren't. The Holocaust was a pointed, purposeful rejection of the values of the New Testament and Old Testament too for the matter.tribune7
January 1, 2018
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JS I was arguing that the fact of moral governance is an objective fact but that what it acts on is subjectively derived. So morals are objective and eternal and we are in agreement?tribune7
January 1, 2018
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T7
Do you understand the thing that you were defending was that morals are not objective or eternal?
I was arguing that the fact of moral governance is an objective fact but that what it acts on is subjectively derived. Nothing more, nothing less.JSmith
January 1, 2018
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I'm not an atheist. Neither were most of those who put those men in that pit. Yes, they were acting according to an ideology influenced by atheism. But these were people who grew up going to church. They could have stopped this when it started. They could have stopped this hours before this picture was taken. They didn't. The word "antisemitisch" was first written in reference to Ernest Renan, who believed and taught that Jews were an inferior race. He wasn't an atheist, far from it. He read the Bible but apparently considered himself more human than those who penned it. One can split all sorts of hairs over who influenced whom and whose teachings led to the holocaust. But it's absurd to lay the holocaust at the feet of atheists in nations filled with churches. Or do we just blame atheists for everything?OldAndrew
January 1, 2018
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JS,
the torturing and killing a child nonsense
Apparently you fail to recognise that you are here trampling on the memory of a real child, kidnapped, bound, sexually assaulted and murdered by a monster, at age 8, having been ambushed on his way home from school. I suggest, your reaction displays your cognitive dissonance over being unable to acknowledge that this monstrous act is self-evidently evil. I think you need to be re-examining your worldview. Especially as just now (cf. 197 the previous thread) you have had to in effect acknowledge something closely related as a case of objective moral knowledge. KFkairosfocus
January 1, 2018
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JS Do you understand the thing that you were defending was that morals are not objective or eternal?tribune7
January 1, 2018
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Discussion on the other thread has cantered on the torturing and killing a child nonsense. Why don’t we discuss something that is not absurd and something that is far from decided. Public health care. In Canada and many other countries health care is universal and is paid out of tax revenues. Obviously, this was an action based on what many people believe was morally based. Since Canada and the US are the closest culturally, why don’t we pass it through a rational, logical, evidence examination. Canadian health system vs US: Canadian system: 1) less costly. 2) available to everyone regardless of income. 3) nobody looses their house or goes bankrupt due to medical bills 4) there is a net influx of US doctors to the Canadian system. 5) Canada has a higher life expectancy. 6) Canada has a lower infant mortality rate. But there are also some negatives. 1) the wait times for some elective surgeries can be excessive. 2) some experimental treatments that may be of use are not covered. But, to be fair, they aren’t covered in the US either. 3) higher taxes. Based on this I would conclude that public health care is a benefit to society and to the infividuals within it. Therefore a morally good thing to offer. Anyone care to offer a counter argument? Simpering CowardJSmith
January 1, 2018
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Jonathan Haidt who is anything but a dyed-in-the-wool conservative --he appears describe himself as a liberal (small l)Liberal-- wrote an interesting article which was republished recently in the National Review.
When we look back at the ways our ancestors lived, there’s no getting around it: we are tribal primates. We are exquisitely designed and adapted by evolution for life in small societies with intense, animistic religion and violent intergroup conflict over territory. We love tribal living so much that we invented sports, fraternities, street gangs, fan clubs, and tattoos. Tribalism is in our hearts and minds. We’ll never stamp it out entirely, but we can minimize its effects because we are a behaviorally flexible species. We can live in many different ways, from egalitarian hunter-gatherer groups of 50 individuals to feudal hierarchies binding together millions. And in the last two centuries, a lot of us have lived in large, multi-ethnic secular liberal democracies. So clearly that is possible. But how much margin of error do we have in such societies? Here is the fine-tuned liberal democracy hypothesis: As tribal primates, human beings are unsuited for life in large, diverse secular democracies, unless you get certain settings finely adjusted to make possible the development of stable political life. This seems to be what the Founding Fathers believed. Jefferson, Madison, and the rest of those 18th-century deists clearly did think that designing a constitution was like designing a giant clock, a clock that might run forever if they chose the right springs and gears.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454964/age-outrage Haidt is alarmed by the way illiberal tribalism has begun to take over our democratic institutions-- the media, higher education and government. Can a diverse multi-ethnic culture like we find in the United States survive a resurrected form of tribalism? If the trends continue the way they have been going for the last the last 50 years, the answer, in my opinion, is NO.” It appears to me that the so-called new atheists have gone all in with tribal identity politics. Despite claims to the contrary, they really don’t have arguments based on reason-- “we’re reasonable because our arguments are based on facts, evidence, logic and truth,” but rather “we are reasonable because of who we are.” That’s why with our regular atheist interlocutors we don’t get straight, honest or logical responses but rather evasive slippery eel rhetoric, tag-team obfuscation and disdainful intolerance. And they are not even very good at those tactics-- they are, however very obsessed with them. That’s because, at least from what I can see, they have gone all-in with tribalism.john_a_designer
January 1, 2018
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Sev,
If that terrible image illustrates anything it is what can happen when absolutist thinking – whether political or religious – takes control of a society.
Just exactly the opposite is true. If there had been more absolutist thinking -- such as absolute adherence to the moral principle "do not murder" -- the Holocaust could never have happened. The Atheist/Materialists who comment in these pages cannot bring themselves to condemn the Holocaust as an absolute objective evil. Do you not see how that attitude allows the Holocaust to slip from the "unthinkable" category to the "thinkable" category? And once it becomes thinkable, it is one step closer to "doable."Barry Arrington
January 1, 2018
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--Trib, especially when as taxes rise, demands to spend rise even more leading to a runaway debt spiral signalled by a permanent deficit. -- Yup. And our friends like rvb8 wonder in puzzlement why the rich get richer everytime their favored policies get put in place.tribune7
January 1, 2018
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Trib, especially when as taxes rise, demands to spend rise even more leading to a runaway debt spiral signalled by a permanent deficit. Laffer's argument that there is such a thing as counter-productive over-taxing has a point also. So is the problem of triggering a malinvestment driven unsustainable and ruinous artificial boom. KFkairosfocus
January 1, 2018
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rvb8 I, an atheist favour, public spending, high taxes, free public health care, public transport, free libraries. I don’t fit your Nietzche nonsense. That's an interesting and well-made observation as most of those on the left -- who are far more likely to be atheists -- favor those things, well high taxes and public spending anyway as I can't think of anyone on the right who strongly objects to free libraries or public transport. One of the reasons is that those who believe in God (hold eternal, objective values) are more likely to recognize that someone demanding public works may not be totally sincere in his claims of compassion. A whole lot of people get rich in government. Many on the left seem to have put politics in place of God i.e. you are a good, moral person if you support these things and a bad person if you don't. My view is that a particular policy may be wise or unwise and the more someone is screaming at you to support it the less likely the program will be wise. When God is your God any form of compulsion will be treated with suspicion. This applies to religion too.tribune7
January 1, 2018
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PPS: And, Plato speaks again, about evolutionary materialism and the radical relativism and nihilism it fosters:
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
This is of course routinely brushed aside by those who wish to repeat the same experiment.kairosfocus
January 1, 2018
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PS: Let Plato speak, in his parable of the ship of state:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State[ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable, and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
That, is the fate of the politics of untrammelled relativism driven by evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers.kairosfocus
January 1, 2018
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Seversky: You have neatly omitted the issue of worldviews and their roots tied to the challenge of truth and responsible, rational freedom in community. The issue is not "absolutist thinking" (oh, what snide associations and inferences are thereby invited by cleverly loaded, toxic word choice) but rather TOTALITARIAN CONTROL that does not respect responsible, morally governed rational freedom. First, truth vs "absolutism." Truth (per Ari's apt summary in Met. 1011b) is what says of what is that it is, and of what is not, that it is not. In that context, knowledge in the commonly used weak sense is warranted, credibly true and reliable belief. Seeking and seeking to live by the truth is another way of saying, seeking to live in accord with reality. Lunacy is to try to live by fantasies in the teeth of reality. Where, as one of the first self-evident truths is, that error exists, we have to reckon with the gap between belief and reality, thus the need to foster responsible, rational freedom in community as the best hope for finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed creatures such as we are. Thus, while we can access a limited range of self-evident truths that can only be denied on pain of patent absurdity, that is nowhere near enough to build a worldview much less a community. where, only in an utterly nihilistic age will humility before truth and warrant shaped by recognising the dangers of error find itself routinely marginalised and demonised by the twisted accusation that such is equivalent to totalitarian tyranny. Only one matching the bill of particulars for the father of lies could have pulled off such a wicked slander. So, we here note that while there is absolute truth: the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth on a matter, the reality of error and of our fallibility means that we must reckon with so balancing the community that no one centre can monopolise power. Where, power tends to corrupt and power without accountability corrupts without limit. This is why, once print, reformation and mass literacy amplified by books, pamphlets and newspapers were on the scene, Christian thinkers and statesmen made a major -- and too often overlooked or willfully suppressed -- contribution to moving our civilisation into the space of political possibilities now familiar as modern liberty and constitutional democracy. The first time in history that that became possible was C17, and the next 1 - 200 years saw the great transition I describe. Before that, the most we could reasonably hope for was a lawful state constrained by a community consensus on justice rooted in the law of our morally governed nature. Yes, there was a struggle with real absolutism, the notion that one ruler held ultimate legitimacy and unquestionable authority. From Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos 1579 to the Dutch DoI of 1581 onward to Rutherford and Locke then the US founders and framers, a largely biblical framework for resistance to tyranny involving interposition of lower magistrates who also held legitimate authority was articulated in successful correction. A key facet of this was the double covenant understanding of nationhood under God and government of the nation under God. In this context a ruler turned tyrant could and should be removed. Ultimately, this led to the general election as a peaceful means involving all of the people. So, absolute truth is not to be confused with absolutist rule. Nor is objective truth, weak form knowledge equal to absolute truth. Nor is belief equal to knowledge. Nor can every significant knowledge claim be self-evident. And, the history of the holocaust is exactly opposite to your suggestions above. Hitler was a totalitarian fascist, leader of the national socialist german workers party who sought to deny the fundamental equality of all peoples as made in God's image. He built his schemes on Galton's eugenics and the aryan man myth of a highly evolved master race. And when they pounced on their main victims: Russians [20- 30 millions], Jews [6 mn] and Poles [5 mn including half of the Jewish victims], the argument was that the cat has no sympathy for mice, his natural prey. In short, we saw where might makes right ends, in bloody chaos. But, in our time the ongoing holocaust mounts up at 1 million more of posterity in the womb per week, 800+ mn in 40+ years. equally, motivated by might (including, manipulation) makes right etc. We, collectively, are WORSE than the Nazis. Now, you try to pretend that cultural relativism with its Plato's cave world of shadow shows substituting for truth is some hoped for utopia. No, such a world that has no answer to the IS-OUGHT gap ends up in the balance of power among power elites is arbitrarily imposed by might and manipulation. Amorality and stealth nihilism. The ongoing abortion holocaust is proof of that, were such needed. Ours is the worst of dark ages, locked into a march of ruinous folly with only faint hope of turning back before it is too late. But, we congratulate ourselves through shadow shows and pretend that all is well save for those Christo-fascist followers of a monstrous bronze age god off in a despised corner. Not even the patent echoes of village atheistical folly suffice to warn of how wrong-headed that is. (And BTW, look here on for a 101 corrective to spiteful Internet atheist rhetoric and the underlying toxic hate exposed thereby.) No, the reality is very different -- and WJM has much the better of the exchange. Let us listen to Provine at Darwin Day U Tenn, some years ago:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
If that is not amoral nihilism, nothing is. And Provine was actually late to the party. Here is Heine, seeing what would come, c 1831:
Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [--> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . do not overlook the obvious], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame [--> an irrational battle- and blood- lust]. … The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. … … Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world. … At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [--> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [--> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831]
That, sirs, is the real root of the Nazi holocaust. KFkairosfocus
January 1, 2018
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If that terrible image illustrates anything it is what can happen when absolutist thinking - whether political or religious - takes control of a society. The Nazi ideology extolled the virtues of an Aryan super-race which regarded all others as inferior, subordinate and ultimately disposable. When they settled on the "final solution" to the Jewish - and gypsy and homosexual and mentally ill - problem did they consult the victims to see of they agreed that it was a good idea? No, of course they didn't. Neither did the various flavors of communism before they killed even more. Neither did various religions throughout recorded history, including events recounted in the Old Testament. The is no record of God conducting referenda of the populations of Sodom and Gomorrah or the other cities obliterated by Him or His proxies. There was no worldwide survey before almost all life on the surface of the Earth was exterminated in the Great Flood. When WJM and others trot out that tired old canard about there being no way to choose between the 'morality' of the psychopath and that of the rest of us, be aware that what they are actually arguing for is some form of divine or other command morality. It's designed by some supreme authority or an elite few supposedly for our benefit but the rest of us who are supposed to be subject to it don't get a say. Apparently, we're not good enough. Of course, it's dressed up as "objective" and/or "natural moral law" but it's funny how that "objective" and "natural law" morality turns out to by synonymous with the advocates own version of Christianity. It's never Buddhist or Sikh or Muslim or pagan. I wonder why that is? As for the psychopath problem, the simple answer is that, while the psycho might take perverted pleasure in the rape, torture and murder of others, the rest of us potential victims do not. And we are in the overwhelming majority, which isn't "might makes right" but democracy does, with some obvious caveats. As I noted at the beginning, that picture does not illustrate the consequences of consensus morality. Those tragic victims did not choose to be exterminated. They were never asked. Their fate was the result of narrow, bigoted, absolutist and exclusivist thinking - whether political or religious - that we always need to be on our guard against.Seversky
January 1, 2018
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In a world where physics fixes all the facts, it’s hard to see how there could be room for moral facts. In a universe headed for its own heat death, there is no cosmic value to human life, your own or anyone else’s. Why bother to be good? We need to answer these questions. But we should also worry about the public relations nightmare for scientism produced by the answer theists try to foist on scientism. The militant exponents of the higher superstitions say that scientism has no room for morality and can’t even condemn the wrongdoing of a monster like Hitler. Religious people especially argue that we cannot really have any values—things we stand up for just because they are right—and that we are not to be trusted to be good when we can get away with something. They complain that our worldview has no moral compass. These charges get redoubled once theists see how big a role Darwinian natural selection plays in scientism’s view of reality. Many of the most vocal people who have taken sides against this scientific theory (for instance, the founders of the Discovery Institute, which advocates “intelligent design”) have frankly done so because they think it’s morally dangerous, not because it lacks evidence. If Darwinism is true, then anything goes! You might think that we have to resist these conclusions or else we’ll never get people to agree with us. Most people really do accept morality as a constraint on their conduct. The few who might agree privately with Darwinism about morality won’t do so publicly because of the deep unpopularity of these views. … We have to acknowledge (to ourselves, at least) that many questions we want the “right” answers to just don’t have any. .. First, nihilism can’t condemn Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or those who fomented the Armenian genocide or the Rwandan one. If there is no such thing as “morally forbidden,” then what Mohamed Atta did on September 11, 2001, was not morally forbidden. Of course, it was not permitted either. But still, don’t we want to have grounds to condemn these monsters? Nihilism seems to cut that ground out from under us. Second, if we admit to being nihilists, then people won’t trust us. We won’t be left alone when there is loose change around. We won’t be relied on to be sure small children stay out of trouble. Third, and worst of all, if nihilism gets any traction, society will be destroyed. We will find ourselves back in Thomas Hobbes’s famous state of nature, where “the life of man is solitary, mean, nasty, brutish and short.” Surely, we don’t want to be nihilists if we can possibly avoid it. (Or at least, we don’t want the other people around us to be nihilists.) Scientism can’t avoid nihilism. We need to make the best of it. ... To avoid these outcomes, people have been searching for scientifically respectable justification of morality for least a century and a half. The trouble is that over the same 150 years or so, the reasons for nihilism have continued to mount. Both the failure to find an ethics that everyone can agree on and the scientific explanation of the origin and persistence of moral norms have made nihilism more and more plausible while remaining just as unappetizing. [Alexander Rosenberg, 'The Atheist's Guide to Reality', Ch.5]
Origenes
January 1, 2018
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dgosse @6, 'who pays for it'? Taxes pay for it as they do in countries that have free, comprehensive health care. Actually it is countries with poor tax systems, which are shambolic and poorly run which suffer a far greater burden to their economies. Russia, India, Africa and most of South and Central America, have terrible affordable health care, and terrible economies; a link perhaps? And of course it is the countries with high progressive taxes that are the most humanly run, and largely atheist; odd that, isn't it. Funnily enough it is the homeland of Nietzche, which has high taxes and superb public health. It's quite easy to pay for dgosse, especially if the estimated trillions of dollars in tax havens was winkled out, and tax evaders jailed, not wrist slapped.rvb8
December 31, 2017
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rvb8 @ 4: The main difference between you and Nietzche is that he was honest about the logical end of a/mat philosophy... death, oppression, and dictatorship. Nietzche suffered from one delusion (being an a/mat). You suffer from two delusions (being an a/mat and thinking that a/mat philosophy is actually good for humanity). You are twice deluded.Truth Will Set You Free
December 31, 2017
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rvb8: Many, if not most, atheists support "public spending, high taxes, free public health care, public transport, free libraries." That's just dialectical materialism AKA communism. Who pays for it and why should they pay for it? John Q. Public, the poor schlepp who thinks he should work for a living and is "high taxes" taxed into oblivion to pay for the public spending, "free" health care, "free" education, etc. Nothing is free. It is earned, given by those who earn, or stolen from those who earn.dgosse
December 31, 2017
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rvb8, That you coast along on Christian moral/political principles simply means that you, like JSmith, stand on a foundation and at the very same time reject the fundamental principles on which that foundation is built. Read Nietzche more closely and you will understand that people like you, who would reduce morality to subjective preference, are far closer to Nietzche than a Christian can ever be. Ask yourself a question rvb8. Why do you think Nietzche hated Christianity so much?Barry Arrington
December 31, 2017
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Barry I read your first paragraph and it left me a little confused. I believe most of the posters here would be conservative in their views. A strong economy, defense force, rule of law, personal choice and responsibility etc. I, an atheist favour, public spending, high taxes, free public health care, public transport, free libraries. I don't fit your Nietzche nonsense. I believe you and your conservative cohorts, are far, far, closer to the philosophy of Nietzche than I.rvb8
December 31, 2017
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JS @ 3, And . . . he responds by simpering. Yes, KF. Sad.Barry Arrington
December 31, 2017
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Because he is a simpering coward.
Thank you for pointing out to me another person who is not worth the effort to try to have an honest discussion with. So far, two of them have author priveledges. Not looking favourable.JSmith
December 31, 2017
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Sad.kairosfocus
December 31, 2017
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