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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
SB
Your philosophy is that societies are responsible for deciding on who gets rights, who doesn’t, and what a legitimate right should be. This is what you called a fair society.
Again. Putting words in my mouth. It is really difficult to have a discussion with someone who claims that you say what he wants you to say. Some would call that dishonest. Hell, everyone would call that dishonest. This doesn’t make it a fair society. This makes it a society like the ones we have seen for thousands of years. Some fair. Some authoritarian. Some tyrannical. Some theocratic. Some democratic. Some autocratic. And some anarchistic.
If you want to say that you don’t support all societal decisions, or that some of those decisions are wrong, you have to explain what objective standard you use to make that judgment.
Why? I only have to convince people that my rational, logical, evidence based examination is better than that used to develop the policy I disagree with. That is how the acceptance of homosexuality and same sex marriage defeated the religious arguments used against it.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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OA
He disavows all sorts of historical evils just as much as you do.
You are way behind the times. JS doesn't believe that "good" and "evil" exist.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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And I’m sure he thought he was objective too. Does that make what he did better or worse? I think it’s irrelevant.
You said "sincerity" matters most. Since Hitler was sincere, he passes your test for morality. Congratulations.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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Old Andrew
Thou are refuted
Hardly.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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Hitler was very sincere.
And I'm sure he thought he was objective too. Does that make what he did better or worse? I think it's irrelevant.OldAndrew
January 8, 2018
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You support all these contradictory policies because they were the product of a societal decision.
You haven't established that. He disavows all sorts of historical evils just as much as you do. Your point is that he disavows with them for the wrong reasons while you disavow them for the right reasons. And who can say which of us might have owned slaves if we all lived in Alabama 200 years ago? Maybe all of us, maybe none of us. So what exactly is the big thing that you're refuting? You're splitting hairs, and after you split them you're splitting them again into smaller hairs. I'm really starting to think you don't get it. It doesn't matter how other people view us or what they say to us. It's impossible for us to look down on others as you seem to without at the same time placing ourselves on a pedestal. I'm not saying that we compromise and decide that everyone's right. I don't think that. Jesus didn't think that. But knowing right from wrong doesn't give someone the authority to judge others. Didn't Paul write,
For what business is it of mine to judge the outsiders? do not you do the judging of the insiders, but God the judging of the outsiders?
I'll leave you to figure out who the "insiders" are, but here's a hint: They aren't whoever posts on the same forum you do. Thou art refuted. :)OldAndrew
January 8, 2018
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OA You want them to share your religious beliefs. Actually, it's my value system, which, amazingly enough, allows for theological diversity and skepticism.tribune7
January 8, 2018
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JSmith
I wasn’t aware that objective morality had a monopoly on those words.
That is why I am here--to make you aware. A subjectivist is not entitled to use the language of objective morality in order to mislead his readers. The fact is that you do not believe that such objective standards of "fairness" and "goodness" exist. Thus, to be consistent, you should use phrases such as "fair from my perspective, or "good based on my feelings, and avoid such formulations as "is good" or "is fair," which make it appear that you believe things that you don't really believe.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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SB Hitler was very sincere. As were his followers. As was Stalin and Lenin. As was Mao etc. And for the record Hitler was an anti-Christian.tribune7
January 8, 2018
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JS They want to live a good life, do their best for their family and friends, do no harm to others, etc. So why is there murder, rape, theft, human trafficking etc.? My issue, well one of them, with you is that when someone points out reality you imply they are ignorant or have some character flaw while hand-waving at the reality as though it doesn't matter. Remember, way back you were unable to say that child rape was an eternal evil. I have a problem with that. You represent a type that sweeps suffering under the rug as long as it doesn't affect them.tribune7
January 8, 2018
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To JSmith at 309: yes, well said. (I'm resisting the temptation to participate, so I'll limit myself to cheerleading.)jdk
January 8, 2018
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Old Andrew
I propose that what matters far more is not whether our morals are subjective or objective. It matters whether our morals are sincere or insincere.
Hitler was very sincere.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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Old Andrew
But stop saying objectivism and subjectivism. That’s not what this is about.
It is exactly what this thread is about. Just because you have another agenda doesn't mean that I should not address the topic. Did you even read Barry's post?StephenB
January 8, 2018
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Notice that SB can’t address the real issues so he presumes that subjectively derived morality can’t talk about “good” and “fair”. I wasn’t aware that objective morality had a monopoly on those words.
Notice that SB did address the real issue (JSs subjectivism 302 313), and he has no answers.) Go ahead and try to refute me and tell me where I am wrong. Meanwhile, notice how he also evades even this topic. He appeals to objective morality by using words like "fair" and "good," even though he doesn't believe that such things even exist.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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JSmith
SB at 307, as KF would say, you speak in disregard to the truth. I would say that you lie, but that would put me into moderation (or worse). You are great at telling me what my philosophy requires me to believe, but completely ignore the fact that real life does not reflect yours.
Your philosophy is that societies are responsible for deciding on who gets rights, who doesn't, and what a legitimate right should be. This is what you called a fair society. If you want to say that you don't support all societal decisions, or that some of those decisions are wrong, you have to explain what objective standard you use to make that judgment. Since you have no such standard, if follows that you support, as fair, any decision that any society makes as long as it represents a consensus view. Thus, if follows that you support both the US consensus that fostered racial discrimination and the later US consensus that renounced it. It also follows that you support both the anti-same-sex-marriage policies arrived at by consensus and the pro-same sex marriage arrived at by the courts and the consensus view that followed. You support all these contradictory policies because they were the product of a societal decision. If my analysis is incorrect, then feel free to refute me. Meanwhile, it should be evident that I have refuted you.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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I am discussing subjectivist philosophy. JSmith, a subjectivist, does not think it is objectively wrong to kill Jews or blacks. According to his subjective morality, he doesn’t *like* it, but he finds nothing inherently wrong with it. He believes that whatever society comes up with is “fair.” I hear you. And I'm sorry if I got a little wound up, although I hope you can see that I take care not to choose language that makes it personal. Let me approach it from a different angle: Once upon a time Robitussin was the undisputed king of cough syrups. They had cough syrups for adults and cough syrups for children. How could a newcomer to the market gain entry? By advertising a better cough syrup for adults and a better one for children? No, Robitussin was out-marketed by a company that changed the rules of the game using words. Forget adults and children, the question is whether you need daytime cough syrup or nighttime cough syrup. And the rest is history. Morality isn't a product or a game, but what I see here is undue emphasis on adjectives used to describe morality, to the point where the more important matters are buried. I propose that what matters far more is not whether our morals are subjective or objective. It matters whether our morals are sincere or insincere. It matters whether they are held with courage and conviction, or whether they blow away with the winds of the moment. It also matters whether they are based on right and wrong information, but the Holocaust didn't happen because people didn't know genocide was wrong. They knew it right up until they shut off their consciences. I have no doubt that many or most who promote homosexuality believe that they are upholding objective, not subjective morals. They will say that the right of people to live as they do is absolute, objective, and self-evident. You might say, 'but what objective reality do they base their morals on?' I'd say probably the Declaration of Independence, which they've heard quoted as scripture their whole life. They've been preached to that nothing is more precious and holy than freedom. So I have no doubt that they feel well-grounded in their beliefs. They don't see it as moral relativism. They think that people 2,000 years ago were objectively wrong, and they've got the holy writings of the Founding Fathers to back them up. Life, liberty, and happiness. Think about that for a moment. There's been a whole lot of talk about how the DOI "enshrines" absolute objective morals. Newflash: It literally enshrines people doing whatever they think will make them happy, without interference, as long as they don't think it harms anyone. (I'm not agreeing with them. But it takes the wind out of subjective vs. objective.) When you say that morals must be objectively held, what you mean is that morals must be objectively held according to what you believe. I'm not faulting you for that. We can't believe something and at the same time believe that we're wrong. I can't. But stop saying objectivism and subjectivism. That's not what this is about. History proves that it doesn't matter which of those words people use to describe their own morals. They're adjectives, not the noun. And you must agree that a person can be both objectively certain and wrong. Call it what it is. You want people to believe what you believe. You want them to share your religious beliefs.OldAndrew
January 8, 2018
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SB
Notice that JSmith does not believe there is any such thing as an objective good or objective standard of justice, but he uses words like “good” and “fair” as if he did.
Notice that SB can’t address the real issues so he presumes that subjectively derived morality can’t talk about “good” and “fair”. I wasn’t aware that objective morality had a monopoly on those words.JSmith
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F/N: On what happened to Germany, as warned against 100 years ahead of time by a leading literary figure:
Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [--> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . do not overlook the obvious], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame [--> an irrational battle- and blood- lust]. … The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. … … Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world. … At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [--> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [--> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831]
(BTW, much the same spread from Germany across our civilisation, albeit a lot more slowly. We forget today that for many decades Germany was the intellectual centre of our civilisation. I have seen a discussion in NYT 1914 i/l/o what was already coming out in that war. Start with the rape of Belgium, which BTW was where Hitler spent his war years. Much of the same happened a generation later, on a continental scale.) Worth a thought or two. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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SB at 307, as KF would say, you speak in disregard to the truth. I would say that you lie, but that would put me into moderation (or worse). You are great at telling me what my philosophy requires me to believe, but completely ignore the fact that real life does not reflect yours. The big difference is that my philosophy (morality is subjectively derived) is supported by what we have seen throughout history. And it’s not all pretty. You, on the other hand, can’t support your philosophy with real evidence so you claim to know what my philosophy requires me to believe.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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JSmith
In a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights. However, a good government will also not not adopt some moral values into their system of legal rights.
Notice that JSmith does not believe there is any such thing as an objective good or objective standard of justice, but he uses words like "good" and "fair" as if he did.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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SB: You justify any policy that “society” deems appropriate. If one society wants to kill Jews, you support it. If another society wants to defend Jews, you support it as well. Old Andrew
Does no one see the irony in this? This thing about a society that wants to kill Jews actually happened, and the people who did it were from a country where over 90% of the population identified as Protestant or Catholic.
Irrelevant. You are missing the point. Hitler was put in power by the German system of government approved of by the people, and for JSmith, that is what makes it fair. He has no objective standard of right and wrong that would say that society, in this case, made a mistake. As he puts it, “rights are what we as a society decide rights to be.” If society decides blacks have no rights, then they have no rights. I society decide that babies have no rights, then they have no rights. If you have a problem with this, then take it up with him.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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OA at 304, excellent comment. Contrary to the opinion of some here, I don’t hate Christians or Christianity. They have done some excellent work over the centuries and continue to do so. The Salvation Army, a Christian organization is, in my opinion, the best charity in the world. They help everyone, regardless of who they are, without judgement. I give them a couple thousand dollars every year even though I am not Christian. What bothers me with some of the comments from so called Cristians here is that they are very unChristian. I can only presume that they come from ignorance, not knowledge and experience. I travel extensively throughout the world and have learned one simple truth. Regardless of your race, culture, religion and education level, people are all the same. They want to live a good life, do their best for their family and friends, do no harm to others, etc.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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Old Andrew
The dead Jews are real. The rest is talk. I’m flabbergasted by the hypocrisy of telling an atheist that’s what he would do after a bunch of baptized churchgoers actually did it. That’s going to win people over.
For my part, I am not discussing atheism or religion. I am discussing subjectivist philosophy. JSmith, a subjectivist, does not think it is objectively wrong to kill Jews or blacks. According to his subjective morality, he doesn't *like* it, but he finds nothing inherently wrong with it. He believes that whatever society comes up with is "fair." Dire consequences follow from that world view and I am simply pointing it out. I want readers to understand what JS believes and why it is dead wrong, which it is.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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Jesus once told a group of disciples and followers that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. It was a shocking thing to say, and as a result many stopped following him. What he actually meant he could have said differently. He wasn't stupid. He knew exactly how they would react. Their own reaction would determine what was in their hearts. If they wanted a reason not to listen anymore, now they had it. If they wanted to follow him, they would try to understand what he meant. If they couldn't understand it they would set it aside because they knew he must have had a good reason for saying it. for emphasis, he did this on purpose. The Bible contains some things that are hard to absorb. There are accounts of killing and things that would disturb any normal person if we heard about them on the news. If someone prefers not to believe in God or in the Bible, they can certainly find a reason in it. When many of Jesus' followers left because they didn't like what they heard, Jesus just them go. He didn't argue with them. With that in mind, what on earth are people trying to accomplish by verbally assaulting atheists, demanding that they accept 'Judeo-Christian values`? I'm not on the side of atheism, but this dialogue only makes them look more reasonable and isn't going to convince anyone of anything. I hope it feels really good.
You justify any policy that “society” deems appropriate. If one society wants to kill Jews, you support it. If another society wants to defend Jews, you support it as well.
Does no one see the irony in this? This thing about a society that wants to kill Jews actually happened, and the people who did it were from a country where over 90% of the population identified as Protestant or Catholic. Over 80% of Rwandans were Catholic or Protestant and that didn't stop them from hacking each other to death with machetes. A minimal application of Christian values wouldn't have slowed those tragedies down. It would have stopped them in their tracks. What Hitler did would have been impossible if the general population hadn't been complicit from the very beginning, long before the mass murder started. I'm sure some will say that they weren't real Christians and you'll get no argument from me. But make no mistake: They went to church, sang the songs, and wore crosses around their necks, and their objective morality was as heavy as leaves in the wind. That's where the rubber hits the road. The dead Jews are real. The rest is talk. I'm flabbergasted by the hypocrisy of telling an atheist that's what he would do after a bunch of baptized churchgoers actually did it. That's going to win people over.OldAndrew
January 8, 2018
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But saying that something is fact because it is fact is a circular argument. Objective, eternal morality must exist because it exists. But that's not argument I'm making. My argument is that eternal morality exists because it must exist. You seem to be asking me to prove it using the methods aimed at learning about energy and matter. It is hard to have a discussion with someone who repeatedly puts words in your mouth that you never said. I'm not sure you even remember what you said. You are certainly not clear about it. Are you a theist? What does the phrase "I agree" mean? That definitely seems like a real dilemma to me. Or, at the minimum, he his sending mixed messages. Because you are starting with the premise that Man is good. Start with the premise that Man is cruel and merciless because Man chose to be. Then you might get a glimmer as to God's goodness. But that is not the issue. The issue is that, if God thought that it was morally acceptable to do that a few thousand years ago, and since according to you morality is objective and internal, why do we not think that it is morally acceptable to do this today? Suppose if Saul did his slaughter without being commanded to by God as was the norm? Would that make you feel better? I'll try and explain it again. God loves Man. Man does evil. How does God deal with Man? Floods him out? Sends forth disease and conquest? Or does a loving God set a personal example of love? BTW, did you ever read Lincoln's explanation for the Civil War (2nd Inaugural Address)? It's relevant. Right and wrong has never changed, and yes there will be an accounting.tribune7
January 8, 2018
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JS
There is nobody saying that you must support a policy that society has implemented.
By your philosophy, it doesn't matter what I think. It's what society thinks that matters. You said society is the arbiter of all moral values since there are no moral truths that we can use as our guide. It means that you support society's decision no matter what they decide.
The Nazis killing of Jews was based on what they considered to be a “truth”.
They killed Jews based on the subjective morality of German society, which is what you celebrate. They certainly didn't do it on the basis of the objective natural moral law, which forbids murder and wanton violence, or haven't you heard.
But I am sure that they never consulted with the Jews when they concluded this “truth”. Or with the homosexuals, or with the Roma.
By your standard, it doesn't matter. German society worked through the government to determine a "fair" policy. That is your philosophy and it admits of no outside standard to hold it in check. If the minority gets screwed, it is irrelevant.
The best way to minimize the risk of developing policies that are detrimental to society is to not assume that they are based on objective moral values. That only leads to absolutism. And we all know where that leads.
Are you absolutely sure about that?StephenB
January 8, 2018
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ET
Is God telling us to do this today? What enemies is God telling us to wipe out?
That isn't the point. Are there any circumstances under which it is morally acceptable to intentionally kill the wives and infants of a defeated enemy?JSmith
January 8, 2018
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JS:
The issue is that, if God thought that it was morally acceptable to do that a few thousand years ago, and since according to you morality is objective and internal, why do we not think that it is morally acceptable to do this today?
Is God telling us to do this today? What enemies is God telling us to wipe out?ET
January 8, 2018
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T7
JS: You obviously didn’t get the sarcasm. T7: You are not very good at it:
I will try harder next time.
You keep failing to understand that just because you don’t know something doesn’t mean it isn’t a fact.
Absolutely true. But saying that something is fact because it is fact is a circular argument. Objective, eternal morality must exist because it exists.
You are the one who is claiming that we cannot morally judge those who kill women and children for their own subjective reasons.
It is hard to have a discussion with someone who repeatedly puts words in your mouth that you never said. Of course I can morally judge anyone for their actions. However, if my morality is just based on 'God said it is good' rather than on a rational, logical, evidence based examination, then the validity and legitimacy of my objection is suspect. People from the Westboro Baptist church morally judge blacks and homosexuals all the time. I assume that you do not agree with them.
God is one day going to cause your death...
I wouldn't downplay the impact of too much drinking and an unhealthy lifestyle.
The moral dilemma you are trying to create is can God order us to commit murder when He expressly commands us not to do it.
That definitely seems like a real dilemma to me. Or, at the minimum, he his sending mixed messages.
You pull things out of Samuel or Judges or what have you and think “Gotcha”. I can kill babies today.
No, I pull things out of Samuel and Judges (and don't forget Leviticus) and think, boy, was God as big a jerk as he seems to have been?.
Judges, Samuel etc. was the norm in tribal relations back then. You cannot get that for some strange reason things were different B.C. than now.
I understand it quite well. It actually makes perfect practical, although perservse, sense to kill the infants of your defeated enemies. In that way you won't have to deal with the next generation of enemies. But that is not the issue. The issue is that, if God thought that it was morally acceptable to do that a few thousand years ago, and since according to you morality is objective and internal, why do we not think that it is morally acceptable to do this today? Either God changed his mind, in which case morality is not objective and eternal, or we are misinterpreting God's will today.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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SB
You justify any policy that “society” deems appropriate. If one society wants to kill Jews, you support it. If another society wants to defend Jews, you support it as well. When society supports institutional discrimination against blacks, you support it. When society rejects institutional discrimination and establishes civil rights you support it. If society reverts back, you will support it. There is nothing rational about your position. It is totally irrational.
All you are doing is raising a massive steaming heap of strawman, soaking it in oil of red herring, with a health dose of decisive distraction, weaving it all through with rhetorical talking points and setting it ablaze. There is nobody saying that you must support a policy that society has implemented. Everyone must make up their own mind, based upon their own subjectively derived morality. In some cases, compromise may be the best approach. The Nazis killing of Jews was based on what they considered to be a "truth". But I am sure that they never consulted with the Jews when they concluded this "truth". Or with the homosexuals, or with the Roma. The best way to minimize the risk of developing policies that are detrimental to society is to not assume that they are based on objective moral values. That only leads to absolutism. And we all know where that leads.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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