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Keith S Shows Learned Hand How a Design Inference Works Using CSI

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In comment 58 to my Actually Observed thread ID opponent keith s shows ID opponent Learned Hand how the design inference works.

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

Keiths then goes on to with some mistaken interpretations of Dembski’s work.  But that’s all right.  The important thing is that even one of our most inveterate opponents agrees with the basic thrust of the design inference. We are making progress.

Ironically, later in the post Learned Hand writes:

I think I’ll start a clock on any ID supporter actually testing whether CSI can detect design without knowing (or assuming) in advance whether the subject is designed.

Well, LH, he is far from an ID supporter, but will keiths example work?

Comments
RB can't even understand English! RB are you saying that you can't figure out what UB is referring to? Really? And RB says that evolutionists get 50 points for claiming to have a theory but giving no concrete testable predictions.Joe
November 23, 2014
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UB:
Dimensional semiotic memory is found nowhere else in the natural world...
Even better: that terminology found is nowhere else the the English speaking world.* Don’t you see the problem, UB? You claim to describe “mankind’s most profound scientific discovery,” yet characterize that discovery in terms like “dimensional semiotic memory” that, apparently, no one in the world has ever used. Mankind’s most profound scientific discovery is one of which no scientist in the world is aware. Add the fact that you have ascribed to this profound discovery no testable predictions and you are squarely in Crackpot Index territory: “50 points for claiming you have a revolutionary theory but giving no concrete testable predictions.” (The highest point award of the index). Keith s:
Ha, ha! UB’s website is suddenly “down for maintenance”.
Although there are no author credits on the site, it took me about 2 minutes to learn UB’s name and even view a nice photo of him (neither of which I'll share). I tipped him off to that above. Perhaps he thought better of exposing that information. As soon as he fixes the problem, he'll be back! *As indexed by Google.Reciprocating Bill
November 23, 2014
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It is very telling that all the evolutionists can do is attack ID and they cannot defend evolutionism. keith s has proven to be a total FAILure and he is afraid to admit it. RB is a total loser who couldn't support evolutionism if his life depended on it. And Alicia just oozes with ignorance. Well they all do. Life is goodJoe
November 23, 2014
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I found the website in Google's cache. Man, is it ever funny. Good work discovering it, RB. Here's the exact wording of the quote I mentioned above:
Semiosis at the origin of life is perhaps mankind’s most profound scientific discovery.
I am honored to know Upright Biped.keith s
November 22, 2014
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Ha, ha! UB's website is suddenly "down for maintenance". But not before I got a look at it. RB's description is accurate. I liked the part where UB announces that "biosemiosis at OOL is perhaps the most profound scientific discovery of all time", or something like that. I can't quote it verbatim because he yanked the site down. This has the feel of the overwhelmingevidence.com fiasco to me.keith s
November 22, 2014
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Bill,anow you can stop asking me about the website. :)Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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Hey Keith s: There’s a comment section! All the while you’ve been requesting a dedicated discussion venue, UB has been hatching a website of his own, complete with comments.
They don't work:
This site is down for maintenance. Please check back again soon.
probably waiting for the board of directors.
A process is underway to form a Board of Directors for Biosemiosis.org. An announcement regarding the board is tentatively scheduled for March 1st 2015, at which time Articles of Incorporation will be filed.
Me_Think
November 22, 2014
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UB:
...Dimensional semiotic memory…
I googled this phrase and found just one other page on the entire internets on which those words occur together (no mean feat, that). Not exactly a current term of art. But I’m thinking that UB has at least one kindred soul out there. But stop the WordPresses! Biosemiosis.org is UB's very own website! It’s all there - the four entailments of the apocalypse, the music box, even an information tetrahedron! Well, triangles within a triangle, but it could be folded into a tetrahedron! Very dimensional. It’s pretty good looking (really), but a little thin, just three pages, some pretty pictures and a timeline. Obviously a work in progress. I especially liked that new members of biosemiosis.org are offered green Alka-Seltzers. Very thoughtful. And I enjoyed following the “Why this is Important” link to nowhere. Somehow fitting. But again, a work in progress, so I'm buying a round of slack for all involved. Congratulations on sticking your neck out a bit farther, UB. Hey Keith s: There’s a comment section! All the while you’ve been requesting a dedicated discussion venue, UB has been hatching a website of his own, complete with comments. (Cool shades, GV!)Reciprocating Bill
November 22, 2014
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wd400,
Is tossing a coin a chance process?
If Dembski's p(H|T) says it is then it is, else the toss is directed by ID agent :-)Me_Think
November 22, 2014
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Is tossing a coin a chance process?wd400
November 22, 2014
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note to self: there are no chance processes, there are only deterministic processes, some of which can be described by a probability distribution in which the probability is neither zero nor one.Mung
November 22, 2014
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wd400, did you just say that a process is a chance process if it is determined?Mung
November 22, 2014
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Mung, Yes -- a process is a chance (i.e. stochastic) process if future states of that process are determined probablistically (excluding the silly case when one state has a probability of one).wd400
November 22, 2014
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thank you MungUpright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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p.s. I loved @ 176.Mung
November 22, 2014
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Upright BiPed, if it is any help at all, there are those of us who do read your posts with interest and appreciate the way you address your critics. It is not without notice.Mung
November 22, 2014
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wd400, I am interested in what makes a process a chance process. Is it the existence of a probability distribution? Is that why evolution is considered to be a chance process?Mung
November 22, 2014
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RB,
What I said was that your ad hoc solution doesn’t follow in any way from semiotic theory.
My “ad hoc” solution to what, Bill? I have nothing to resolve.
What Darwinian evolution requires is replication with variation that biases further success in replication. Nowhere in Darwinian theory does it follow that replication requires all of the apparatus (which you characterize as “semiotic”) that characterizes replication in modern organisms.
Yes Bill, we all know you say this. The problem is that you have nothing else to say. You offer nothing whatsoever by which to judge the merit of your statements. Tell us Bill, tell us something about this imaginary thing. Is it a cell? Does it have a cell wall under its constraint? Does it have parts? Does it require nourishment? Is it homeostatic? What is it made of Bill? Can you say anything at all that would assist in an empirical endeavor? If not, then truly, what use is it beyond a rhetoric?
It’s an accurate characterization, as your more recent argument above was tacked on to rescue your semiotic theory from irrelevance (even to ID!)
This supposed irrelevance is only in your head Bill. It’s only in your head. I do not have to assert what causes can and cannot establish a semiotic state within the argument demonstrating semiosis in the cell; all I have to do is demonstrate that semiosis exist in the cell. This issue is only in your head. One thing does not follow from the other thing, Bill. Do you not understand this? However, having established semiosis in the cell, I do not use this fact alone to associate semiosis with intelligence; I use the type of semiotic system to draw that distinction. There are two distinct categories of semiotic systems. One category uses physical representations that are reducible to their material make-up; the other uses physical representations that have a dimensional orientation and are not reducible to their material make-up. The first type is found throughout the living kingdom. The second type is found nowhere else but in recorded language and mathematics. Dimensional semiotic memory is found nowhere else in the natural world except as the result of intelligence action, and it offers a specific physical signature that allows it to be unambiguously identified. So again Bill, you are just simply mistaken. You are allowing this argument to get the best of you. You are making logical errors by continuing to demand that an argument for the existence of something must identify its cause of its existence. Your demand does not follow. You make logical errors by demanding, in effect, that Darwinian evolution has no physical requirements that must be met for it to exist as we find it. You make errors of fact when you start lobbing off whole portions of cellular activity, (like the translation of information) and assume that the cell operates as such in reality. And finally, you make strategic errors when you assume that the argument for semiosis today has not advanced in the past three years.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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I'm sure it must be the constant repeated banning of Reciprocating Bill here at UD that has prevented him from presenting his refutation of Upright BiPed's argument.Mung
November 22, 2014
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UB:
But because I did not assert nor assume what cause or causes can and cannot be the source of semiosis, does not mean that there are no observations of reality that might illuminate potential answers to that question. One does not follow from the other.
Nor did I say that it does. What I said was that your ad hoc solution doesn’t follow in any way from semiotic theory. That, in part, is what makes it “ad hoc.”
As for Darwinian evolution, the conclusion that Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of the system arises directly from the fact that Darwinian evolution requires the translation of the genome into a phenotypic result. These do not exist without semiosis.
As pointed out many times before, this argument assumes its conclusion, and turns on a mischaracterization of what Darwinian evolution requires. What Darwinian evolution requires is replication with variation that biases further success in replication. Nowhere in Darwinian theory does it follow that replication requires all of the apparatus (which you characterize as “semiotic”) that characterizes replication in modern organisms. Simpler Darwinian replicators may be possible, and therefore the current highly complex system of replication may have arisen as a result of Darwinian processes operating across those simpler replicators. The conclusion you’ve assumed is that simpler replicators capable of Darwinian evolution are not possible - but nothing in your semiotic theory forbids that, other than the conclusion you assume. Whether there were simpler replicators and how they functioned is both a theoretical and empirical question, not one that can be answered from the armchairs of UD (or the armchair of UB).
As for your “ad hoc” characterization, it’s a throw away comment as far as I am concerned.
It’s an accurate characterization, as your more recent argument above was tacked on to rescue your semiotic theory from irrelevance (even to ID!)
Your characterization appears to be more about your need to impute a motivation on me, rather than the generally understood definition of “ad hoc”.
The generally understood definition of “ad hoc” in a scientific context implies motive - specifically a desire to rescue a theory from observations that threaten its disconfirmation. In your case the situation is worse, because no predictions with observational consequences follow from your theory; your add-on is an attempt to rescue it from the complete irrelevance that follows from its erstwhile silence on causation - which, apart from your more recent ad hoc additions - you have already conceded.Reciprocating Bill
November 22, 2014
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Bill, regarding your definition of "ad hoc". Is it your position that any improvements made to the observations, or additional information gained over the past two years is "ad hoc" as well?Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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RB,
The notion that Darwinian evolution “can’t be the source of the system” does not arise from and has no relationship to semiotic theory (as you conceded, semiotic theory neither requires nor excludes particular forms of causation).
I gave you an argument for semiosis in the cell. The point of the argument was obviously to demonstrate those observations that illuminate the semiotic state. But because I did not assert nor assume what cause or causes can and cannot be the source of semiosis, does not mean that there are no observations of reality that might illuminate potential answers to that question. One does not follow from the other. As for Darwinian evolution, the conclusion that Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of the system arises directly from the fact that Darwinian evolution requires the translation of the genome into a phenotypic result. These do not exist without semiosis. . As for your “ad hoc” characterization, it’s a throw away comment as far as I am concerned. The observation that Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of the system does not alter the argument in any way. The idea that an observation made subsequent to the main argument (which does not alter that main argument) is “ad hoc” is just rather silly, frankly. Your characterization appears to be more about your need to impute a motivation on me, rather than the generally understood definition of “ad hoc”.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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Bill, you think the notation that Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of the system is because I didn’t make any prior assumptions about the cause of the system? Really?
Quite the contrary. The notion that Darwinian evolution "can't be the source of the system" does not arise from and has no relationship to semiotic theory (as you conceded, semiotic theory neither requires nor excludes particular forms of causation). Your resort to this argument was an ad hoc addition, not something that follows from semiotic theory as you present it. That's why I've repeatedly characterized it as "ad hoc." That said, your conundrum vis causation obviously motivated the reconsideration that resulted in your resort to that ad hoc solution.Reciprocating Bill
November 22, 2014
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Bill, you think the notation that Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of the system is because I didn't make any prior assumptions about the cause of the system? Really? You see some vast significance in that which I do not see. Apparently you think that if I do not assume or assert what mechanisms can and cannot produce a semiotic state then the identification of a semiotic state is useless. I do not see it that way, but you are welcome to do as you wish.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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UB:
If you are suggesting that my account of events is inaccurate if I appeared on TSZ past the 11th of June, then you are welcome to your belief.
I'm not "suggesting" it, I'm stating it. You didn't merely "appear past the 11th of June," you continued in discussion for nearly six weeks as I enjoyed my citrus drinks, then left in mid-discussion for obvious reasons.
I never felt trapped at TSZ. Whatever “escape” you think I need is only in your head.
The escape you needed was not from TSZ, but from the self-constructed conundrum that "semiotic theory" as you presented it has nothing useful to say about causation. Hence the ad hoc addition a year later - essentially a concession that my characterization was correct.Reciprocating Bill
November 22, 2014
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Upright, Why are you afraid of a dedicated thread? You don't appear to be very confident about your ability to defend your "theory".keith s
November 22, 2014
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Keith, you linked to your counter-argument above. I went to the link, posted it in here and dismantled it. If you had something to say, then you would have said it.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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Upright, I know your "theory" is weak, so I want a discussion on a dedicated thread. You also know that your "theory" is weak, so you don't want a discussion on a dedicated thread. Want to prove me wrong? Ask Barry for a dedicated thread. He'll likely give you one, and then we'll see if you're capable of defending your ideas without running away. It will be much harder for you to flee a dedicated thread, because everyone will be watching. How about it? Are you feeling brave?keith s
November 22, 2014
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If you think I’m bluffing
Hilarious.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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Bill, your last concession took place on the 10 of June and I responded to it on the 11th. You immediately started to make lemonade from the lemons. If you are suggesting that my account of events is inaccurate if I appeared on TSZ past the 11th of June, then you are welcome to your belief. The truth is that you were still trying to save face all the way into the second week of July. And despite whatever mind reading skills you have, I never felt trapped at TSZ. Whatever "escape" you think I need is only in your head.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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