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Keith S Shows Learned Hand How a Design Inference Works Using CSI

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In comment 58 to my Actually Observed thread ID opponent keith s shows ID opponent Learned Hand how the design inference works.

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

Keiths then goes on to with some mistaken interpretations of Dembski’s work.  But that’s all right.  The important thing is that even one of our most inveterate opponents agrees with the basic thrust of the design inference. We are making progress.

Ironically, later in the post Learned Hand writes:

I think I’ll start a clock on any ID supporter actually testing whether CSI can detect design without knowing (or assuming) in advance whether the subject is designed.

Well, LH, he is far from an ID supporter, but will keiths example work?

Comments
wd400: Please re-read my comment more carefully. I never said that is how proteins come about (although whatever we are talking about in the OOL context most likely came about through something relatively simple like a pure draw, as even materialist OOL proponents acknowledge). The question was, what are the odds of a biological system (DNA sequence, protein, etc.) coming about by chance. The odds are very simple to calculate. What you are arguing is that there is a process, a mechanism, that can lead to proteins; something that can build such structures through a process or mechanism that is not just pure chance. Like Dawkins, you think you have something that can function as a designer substitute. That is typical response (b) under my comment #150. And it is a logical response. You and I may disagree about the power of your natural non-chance-based mechanism and whether the evidence supports your designer substitute, but that is a separate question from the initial calculation. Don't conflate the question of X coming about by chance with the question of whether there is some process or mechanism, some non-chance factor, that can produce X within the reasonable resources of the known universe.Eric Anderson
November 20, 2014
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And by the way, if we expand the universal probability bound calculation to include all non-teleological processes, then we need to have some sense as to what those non-teleological processes are and enough detail about how they operate to do a calculation. Unfortunately, proponents of materialist evolution have never provided any numerical support for the formation of something like a bacterial flagellum under their designer-substitute theory. Just asserting that "natural selection" did it or equivalently vague proposals doesn't cut it. If someone thinks they have an alleged natural mechanism that can do the job, they need to provide support for it.Eric Anderson
November 20, 2014
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We have a medium-sized 300-sequence amino acid chain that forms a protein. What are the odds of it coming together by chance? Easy. We take 20^300.
That's the chance of drawing 300 amino acids at random, with equal probability that each one is any 20 different AAs, and prefectly matching a specified target, on one draw. No one things that's how proteins came about,but that's the calculation you want to make. And you're telling us biologists are being silly?wd400
November 20, 2014
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keiths: There are several different conversations going on, so I realize you may not have understood my point amid the others on the thread. The fact that biological systems -- many biological systems -- exceed the universal probability bound is well understood in origin of life research, as well as any discussions about DNA sequence formation or protein formation. Anyone who has ever looked at these issues is well acquainted with the basic, initial calculations, which are trivial and easy to understand. It is often the starting point for trying to come up with a naturalistic explanation for their existence. We have a medium-sized 300-sequence amino acid chain that forms a protein. What are the odds of it coming together by chance? Easy. We take 20^300. Well beyond the probability bound. Even an amino acid chain half that long gives us a probability of 1.4*10^195, beyond Dembski's universal probability bound. And any system that utilizes more than one protein (as most do, including the bacterial flagellum), lies that much farther beyond the UPB, with the odds quickly compounding. You seem to be arguing that because Dembski declined to calculate the precise odds of the bacterial flagellum arising through all natural processes, that therefore we cannot know that any biological system lies beyond the UPB. That is both a misrepresentation of Dembski's point, as well as a misunderstanding of the UPB. The logically correct response (that is, from a materialist evolutionist standpoint) to the fact that biological systems lie beyond the UPB is not to deny that they do. That is to deny the basic math that even the most ardent evolutionists have acknowledged for decades. Rather, the approach needs to be either: (a) deny that there is any specification; or (b) show that there is a natural process that can act as a designer substitute and which can go beyond the UPB. (a) is a very common approach which basically insists that nothing special is going on because "Hey, improbable things happen all the time and this protein is no more special than any other amino acid sequence." (b) is also a very common approach, typically by invoking natural selection as some kind of directional force, or in the OOL context by imagining some hypothetical, never-before-seen simple "self-replicating molecule" that would arise by chance (presumably by some odds that are not so long) and permit the magic of natural selection to kick in. Both of these are nonsense, ID proponents argue. But at least we can have a rational, evidence-based discussion about their merits. But arguing that a long chain of amino acids or a long string of DNA nucleotides (both of which are necessary for any biological system, including your bacterial flagellum) do not have initial odds of chance formation that lie beyond the universal probability bound is just silly.Eric Anderson
November 20, 2014
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keith, What is "obvious to everyone" is that you posted a link in #132 to your rebuttal of my argument, but you won't engage me to defend it. So I cut and pasted your rebuttal in #137 and dismembered it right in front of you anyway. Your response was to avoid #137 like the plague, and instead you cling to a vision you've created for yourself whereby all your opponents bow down. It's an embarrassment. The consequence for you is that your response looks more like an intellectual disorder than a clever strategy. This, in turn, only makes you even less interesting than you were before. Goodbye.Upright BiPed
November 20, 2014
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keiths: Hey, before you take on too many more challenges, maybe you should go over to the dedicated thread HeKs started and engage him. I see that you've already posted there a number of times without ever really engaging his points. Maybe that's because you don't have a leg to stand on? :)Phinehas
November 19, 2014
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keiths:
That’s exactly why I want to debate you on a dedicated thread here at UD. If you run away from your own thread, it will be obvious to everyone that you can’t defend your “theory”.
In other words, “Come back here and take what’s coming to you! I’ll bite your legs off!”Phinehas
November 19, 2014
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keiths:
In other words, you can’t do it.
In other words, "Come back here and take what's coming to you! I'll bite your legs off!"Phinehas
November 19, 2014
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Eric, While I await your link, let me address this whopper:
You can do it yourself. Take any protein of modest length and calculate the odds of that that amino acid sequence arising by chance. Same for any DNA sequence.
Evolutionary biologists do not think that long functional proteins arise purely by chance. That's why Dembski says that the H in P(T|H) represents "Darwinian and other material mechanisms" instead of "pure chance". This is ID 101. It's amazing to me that in all the years you've been involved in the ID debate, you still don't understand something that's completely obvious to Dembski and the rest of us.keith s
November 19, 2014
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Eric, I've asked you twice to link to an example of a P(T|H) calculation for a naturally occurring biological phenomenon. I've pointed out that even Dembski admits that he couldn't do it for the flagellum. You say:
Which is trivial to do with many biological systems and has been done many times.
If it's "trivial" and "has been done many times", then link to an example. It's like pulling teeth to get some of you to back up your claims.keith s
November 19, 2014
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You can do it yourself. Take any protein of modest length and calculate the odds of that that amino acid sequence arising by chance. How on earth could you calculate this?wd400
November 19, 2014
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Phinehas #139, In other words, you can't do it.keith s
November 19, 2014
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Upright Biped,
I left TSZ after I had overturned the two main objections from the person I was debating. The remainder of the gallery, including yourself, had not presented anything of substance. This has not changed.
I see. So you were bravely running away from TSZ. That's exactly why I want to debate you on a dedicated thread here at UD. If you run away from your own thread, it will be obvious to everyone that you can't defend your "theory".keith s
November 19, 2014
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keiths: You can do it yourself. Take any protein of modest length and calculate the odds of that that amino acid sequence arising by chance. Same for any DNA sequence. This is basic 101 stuff regarding OOL or new DNA sequence formation or protein formation. Anything of even modest length quickly exceeds the UPB. This isn't even controversial. The only controversial part is that materialists try to find various loopholes to convince themselves that such a sequence could arise anyway, notwithstanding it being beyond the UPB. The "explanations" usually relate to some as-yet-undiscovered natural law or, just as often, a flat out denial that we are dealing with a specification ("Improbable things happen all the time." or "There is nothing special about this sequence, because many sequences are functional." etc.). (And, please, stop it with your misrepresentations about what Dembski said.)Eric Anderson
November 19, 2014
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keiths:
If so, then why not go to this thread and express their bone-crushing arguments in your own words?
Why not? I would think that would be obvious. Perhaps it is only obvious to everyone but you. Why not? Because you are impervious to refutation. Note that I am not saying that your argument is impervious to refutation. It clearly is not. I am saying that you, on multiple points of empirical observation, have demonstrated yourself to be completely and totally impervious to refutation. There's even a thread about it. You are the black knight of debate. The limbs of your argument are severed again and again until they lie scattered about on the ground, yet you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on as though nothing ever happened. The black knight: I'm invincible! Arthur: You're a loony. There comes a point where one realizes the futility of certain actions and has to simply walk away. I predict that you will continue to "win" all of your arguments and continue to tell yourself that this is why everyone else stops engaging with you. I'm sure the limbless black knight is bleeding out somewhere telling himself something very similar.Phinehas
November 19, 2014
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keith s finally admits that unguided evolution is nonsense and he doesn't even realize it:
The reason I can’t calculate P(T|H) for the flagellum is the same reason that Dembski can’t do it. Nobody has the knowledge required to do the calculation.
That is because unguided evolution is total nonsense and cannot provide H. No one knows how to model such a thing as unguided evolution producing any flagellum. No one can even produce a testable hypothesis for such a thing. Thank you for finally admitting unguided evolution is total crap.Joe
November 19, 2014
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Keith, you should refrain from trusting your rhetoric as truth. I left TSZ after I had overturned the two main objections from the person I was debating. The remainder of the gallery, including yourself, had not presented anything of substance. This has not changed. But since you are reluctant to engage your "refutation" of my argument, let me help you get started. Here is your powerhouse summary of my argument:
1. Evolution requires a mechanism for the transfer of recorded information. 2. The transfer of recorded information depends in all cases on an irreducibly complex core. 3. The core cannot be provided by evolution, because evolution cannot even begin unless the core is already present. 4. The core cannot be provided by ‘chance and necessity’, because it is too complex. 5. Therefore, the Designer did it.
One at a time: 1. Evolution requires a mechanism for the transfer of recorded information. In 2011 and 2012 when I was making my argument to Dr Liddle (here and on her blog) I was very clear that I was using the term “transfer” as shorthand for the transfer of information from a medium to a physical effect, requiring both transcription and translation. I do in fact believe that Darwinian evolution is based on the transcription and translation of heritable information. 2. The transfer of recorded information depends in all cases on an irreducibly complex core. The translation of an informational medium allows physical effects to be produced that cannot be derived from the physical properties of the medium. This phenomenon is made evident in the cell, where nucleotides are used to constrain the ordering of amino acids during protein synthesis. The IC nature of the system was actually secondary to the observation that the system is semiotic, but it does indeed require an irreducibly complex system. 3. The core cannot be provided by evolution, because evolution cannot even begin unless the core is already present. Darwinian evolution, as you’ve acknowledged “requires traits to be recorded in the genome, expressed in the progeny, and filtered by selection” which requires translation. Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of the translation system if it requires the translation system in order to exist. If A requires B for A to exist, then A cannot be the source of B. 4. The core cannot be provided by ‘chance and necessity’, because it is too complex. Chance and necessity are not prohibited from being the source of the system; they have to be demonstrated as being capable. 5. Therefore, the Designer did it. The conclusion of the argument is the same as it was in 2012: “the conclusion of the argument is that protein synthesis is observably semiotic and requires a mechanism capable of creating a semiotic state”. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And here at last is your devastating refutation:
In reality, evolution can begin as soon as there is heritable variation with differential reproductive success. Molecules that self-replicate with imperfect fidelity fit the bill
The translation of a representation into a physical effect has a very specific material signature, which I’ve presented numerous times. There are four interdependent elements observed in all translation systems. 1) You have to have a representation, defined as an arrangement of matter to evoke a functional effect within a system where the arrangement of the medium and the effect it evokes are physicochemically arbitrary. 2) You have to have a protocol, defined as an arrangement of matter to establish the otherwise non-existent relationship between the arrangement of the representation and its post-translation effect. 3) The natural discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and its post-translation effect must be preserved by the organization of the system. 4) The effect produces function in the being and/or survival of a living organism. A thing cannot be a representation of something else if there is no protocol to establish what it’s a representation of. In other words, what a representation represents is not established by the arrangement of the medium, its established by the arrangement of a physical protocol. The protocol establishes the post-translation effect of a representation while preserving the natural discontinuity between them. This not only enables a representation to be a representation, but it makes informational constraint possible. If the post-translation effect of a representation had to be derived from the physical properties of the medium itself, then it would be so by the forces of inexorable law, and those forces would limit the system to only those effects that can actually be derived from the arrangement of the medium. It is the absence of an inexorable connection between a representation and its effect that allows the input of informational constaint into the system. That’s how leucine gets added to a polypeptide by the presentation of CTA. Leucine cannot be derived from the nucleic pattern CTA. It has to be translated. There is no (cough, cough) “self-replicating” molecule that achieves translation. Transcription and translation are two entirely different physical processes. The remainder of your “refutation” is wholly based on your fundamental misunderstanding of this readily demonstrable fact. You can now climb off your high horse.Upright BiPed
November 19, 2014
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Keith S Same applies to you.... lets discuss PCD.... here on UDAndre
November 19, 2014
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Upright, Don't forget that you were the one who bailed out of the discussions at TSZ while I wanted to continue. So yes, I'm waiting for a dedicated thread where you will have no excuse for taking off when things get difficult for you, as they inevitably will.keith s
November 19, 2014
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Oh, I see. You're just waiting on a dedicated thread. And I can prove my bravery if I remove my finger from your chest and go fetch you one. :|Upright BiPed
November 18, 2014
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Eric Anderson:
I hope you aren’t saying that we have to be able to calculate, with precision, the precise probability of a system arising through purely natural processes before we can determine whether CSI exists.
keiths:
You don’t need a precise value, but you do need to show that it is less than Dembski’s UPB.
Eric:
Which is trivial to do with many biological systems and has been done many times.
keiths:
Are you sure about that? As I just pointed out, even Dembski admits that he hasn’t done it. Can you link to an example?
Eric:
I presume you are familiar with calculations that have been done regarding amino acid sequences for proteins, or nucleotide sequences in DNA? That is, at a minimum, what is required in terms of specification to produce the biological system in question. And there are numerous cases that easily pass the UPB. It isn’t even a close call.
Can you link to an example? By his own admission, Dembski hasn't done it. I'm curious to know who has, and to see how they performed this "trivial" calculation, as you put it. (Nice putdown of Dembski, by the way.) :-)keith s
November 18, 2014
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Upright, Ask Barry for a dedicated thread. He likes your argument, so he should be happy to feature it prominently. I rebutted your argument two years ago, and I would be happy to do it again. I want our discussion to happen on a dedicated thread, so that when you run away, people will notice that you are abandoning your own argument. In the past, you have run away but then presented your argument at another blog or forum as if nothing had happened. I want everyone to be watching this time. Be brave and ask Barry for a dedicated thread.keith s
November 18, 2014
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keiths: I presume you are familiar with calculations that have been done regarding amino acid sequences for proteins, or nucleotide sequences in DNA? That is, at a minimum, what is required in terms of specification to produce the biological system in question. And there are numerous cases that easily pass the UPB. It isn't even a close call.Eric Anderson
November 18, 2014
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You can start by answering this question: So that would entail some sort of informational medium being passed from parent to progeny, where it would be translated into phenotypic traits of some sort and lead to the differential reproductive success that drives evolution. Is that correct?Upright BiPed
November 18, 2014
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Keith, you have a certain propensity that follows you wherever you go - once your positions have been broken down and dealt with, you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on as if nothing ever happened. It is one of the things you are known for. Now more than ever. For three years you've been dragging around a baby blanket - trumpeting the silly notion that I've run from your penetrating intellect. The simple truth; you can't ask me a question that I'm afraid to answer. Not then, not now. The odd thing is - many days ago UD allowed you a back on this site and you been commenting right next to me - yet no questions. Even as I continue to make my argument right in front of you - still no questions. The bottom line is that you don't have any questions for me worth asking. You only want to post links to a hornets nest of obfuscation from years ago. I believe you do that because you can't stand flat footed - right here and right now - and actually put up a coherent counterargument to the observations I've made. This is all made abundantly obvious by this very thread. I had to approach you about your claims, and you respond by avoiding my questions - and post links instead. Whenever your ready to give up the baby blanket, you let me know. I'm a busy person with limited time, but I'll try to work you in.Upright BiPed
November 18, 2014
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Keith S When will you address PCD? You need to show us how unguided processes created a guided process to prevent unguided processes from happening.... Please Keith!Andre
November 18, 2014
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keiths:
I can back up my claims.
Mung
November 18, 2014
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sez keiths who asserts he can defend his claims.Mung
November 18, 2014
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Says the guy who's been avoiding my questions for years.keith s
November 18, 2014
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Your refusal to answers questions about your claim is duly noted.Upright BiPed
November 18, 2014
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