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Keith S Shows Learned Hand How a Design Inference Works Using CSI

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In comment 58 to my Actually Observed thread ID opponent keith s shows ID opponent Learned Hand how the design inference works.

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

Keiths then goes on to with some mistaken interpretations of Dembski’s work.  But that’s all right.  The important thing is that even one of our most inveterate opponents agrees with the basic thrust of the design inference. We are making progress.

Ironically, later in the post Learned Hand writes:

I think I’ll start a clock on any ID supporter actually testing whether CSI can detect design without knowing (or assuming) in advance whether the subject is designed.

Well, LH, he is far from an ID supporter, but will keiths example work?

Comments
Unsay. Like, the above. But the point of my post is to illustrate that your representation of the chronology of your flight from TSZ, and the reasons for it, is inaccurate. You didn't leave when you say you left; you left following six weeks of further discussion, at the conclusion of which you found yourself painted into a corner. You saw no out other than to flee in mid-dicussion with pointed questions pending. The fact that you've since concluded, following a year of reconsideration, that you've found an escape from that corner (you haven't, but that's another discussion) makes it clear that you did, in fact, perceive yourself as a cornered in July 2012. Ad hoc solutions devised a year later can have had no bearing upon on the fact of, or the cause of, your retreat in July of 2012.Reciprocating Bill
November 22, 2014
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Upright Biped:
Watching the comments here and on other threads over these past days, I find it interesting that our emotionally-entangled critic doesn’t need a thread of his own to engage his foes in any of his other dubious claims. He defends his claims to Stephen, and William, and Barry, and Eric, and Winston, and Vincent, and any other, without nary a hint of needing a thread of his own to stage a defense. This seems to be a condition he reserves only when asked to defend his supposed rebuttal of my observations and argument.
If you think I'm bluffing, then call my bluff. Ask Barry for a dedicated thread to discuss your "Semiotic Theory of ID". You'll be able to show the world that you can defend your theory against Reciprocating Bill, and me, and other ID critics. And since you're confident in your ability to do so, you won't be tempted to run away when the going gets tough -- right?keith s
November 22, 2014
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Upright Biped:
Take as look at Eric’s comment in #150 where he patiently answers Keith direct question, yet Keith responds by not saying a single word about Eric’s response.
Yes, take a look at #150, in which Eric calculates "the odds of it [a 300-amino-acid protein] coming together by chance"... [Emphasis added] ...instead of answering the actual question, which in Eric's own words was to calculate the "probability of a system arising through purely natural processes." Eric can't do it, despite claiming that he could. You can't do it. Dembski, by his own admission, can't do it. If no one can do the calculation, then CSI is worthless. If any ID proponent out there thinks that CSI is actually valuable in detecting biological design in nature, then show us how it's done. Calculate P(T|H).keith s
November 22, 2014
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Does the probability of Reciprocating Bill successfully rewriting the past increase with each new attempt?Mung
November 22, 2014
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“unsay”, Bill? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Here are Bill’s comments immediately after the last time he flew this flag:
Does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state? UB: No. Conversely, does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state? UB: No.
These concessions establish that semiotic systems (as you define them) neither require design nor exclude other classes of causation. If semiosis were an exclusive signature of design, it would follow that a particular class of causation (namely, design) is required to originate semiotic systems. But you have conceded that semiotic theory does not assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Therefore, while you have presented an argument for design in nature, you haven’t present a valid argument, as nothing in your argument requires design nor excludes other forms of origination.
And my reply:
Bill, when I presented my argument to TSZ, I adopted the narrowest of conclusions that finding a semiotic system in protein synthesis “will require a mechanism capable of establishing a semiotic state”. You mocked the narrowness of that conclusion, after having to concede that your two primary counterarguments were invalid. On the other hand, I argued that the formulation of the argument made no assumptions about what could or could not establish that state. Then after another year of consideration, I have retained the narrowness of my original conclusion, but have added that Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of that system because it requires the system in order to exist.
Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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UB:
I left TSZ after I had overturned the two main objections from the person I was debating. The remainder of the gallery, including yourself, had not presented anything of substance. This has not changed.
The exchange to which you refer occurred on June 10, 2012. After considerable further discussion, you fled TSZ some time after this question was posed to you on July 21, nearly six weeks later:
Upright Biped, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, assert is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state.  Also, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, claim cannot create the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state? Why? And why not?
On August 1, after waiting 11 days, I observed:
UB exits. So it goes.
And so you had. And no wonder. You evaded the question a few more months, but when I found that my posting privileges at UD (along with those of several others) had been restored in November, I was able to directly press the question again: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ub-sets-it-out-step-by-step/#comment-438609 The outcome was your concession:
RB: Does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state? UB: No. RB: Conversely, does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state? UB: No.
Which you tried to unsay ever since.Reciprocating Bill
November 22, 2014
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Eric, I remind you that you said that calculating P(T|H), a requirement for apply CSI was trivial. When asked to explain how to do so you produced an utterly irrelevant calculation. Have you backed away from your original claim? I don't know how to calculate the probability of the bacterial flagellum or something like it arising by evolution, any more than I know the probability of the grand canyon arising by erosion, rainfall, plate tectonics and the rest. Niether biologists or geologists give up at this point. Because we not need the probability of this specific outcome to investigate the adequacy of our theory to explain the more general pattern. We can use phylogeny to show the falgellar proteins descend from variour motor proteins, and are related to those involved in secretion sytems. We can use our knowledge of protein evolution to see how well selection explores fitness lansdscapes and we can use lab studies to show ho well bacteria do with many of the flagellar proteins mutated or knocked out. So, science moves on. On the other hand, CSI relies on this calculation which no one can make. So what worth is there in CSI?wd400
November 22, 2014
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AR, I take it that your response in #175 means that you do not take issue with my questions in #174.
Until you provide the link to the theory and the experiment that supports it, it is a bit difficult to provide a counter-argument.
Nothing I said is even controversial. In 1955 at Cavendish Francis Crick proposes a yet unknown set of “adapter” molecules to connect the nucleic acids in DNA to the amino acids they represent during translation. In 1958, Mahlon Hoagland and Paul Zamecnik discovered tRNA; the adapters that Crick predicted three years earlier. They also found the complex proteins required to bind those tRNA with their individual amino acid cargo - establishing the genetic code while preserving the discontinuity between the nucleic representations and their amino acid effects. In 1961, Marshall Nirenberg and Heinrich Matthaei began the actual process of breaking the genetic code. Because of the discontinuity established in the organization of the system, their methodology would mean that they would have to demonstrate the arbitrary relationships between the input and output of translation, which is exactly what they did. And what they demonstrated at the output could not be derived from the input – even in principle. Again, if you have a counter=argument to what I am saying, I will be happy to respond.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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UB, you asserted:
...predicted in theory and confirmed by experiment.
Until you provide the link to the theory and the experiment that supports it, it is a bit difficult to provide a counter-argument. Assertions are two-a-penny.Alicia Renard
November 22, 2014
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AR,
Then you must mean something different by “know” than I do.
Do we know that DNA is an informational medium? Do we know that it is translated into physical effects? Do we know that there is a translation apparatus that is not the DNA? If you have a counterargument to what I said, please make it.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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I answered this question in the very post you are quoting from.
Then you must mean something different by "know" than I do.
On my screen, the answer is about 15mm above the sentence you quoted.
Is it this?
... if you have an informational medium to be translated into a physical effect (such as DNA organizing the cell), it will require a second arrangement of matter to perform the translation while it simultaneously preserves the physicochemical discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and its post-translation effect. This is both a logical necessity and a universal observation – predicted in theory and confirmed by experiment.
If so, I suggest you mean "assert" when you say "know". I especially like "predicted in theory and confirmed by experiment". It has the ring of Joe and "we gave you the CSI calculation, already". Do you have a link to an experiment that confirms the - what - theory?Alicia Renard
November 22, 2014
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AR,
Excellent demonstration of the ad hominem
The man foists the idea that I am afraid to take on his counter-argument, while he simultaneously refuses to engage me in that counter-argument. I can simply choose to leave the room (which I have done) only to have him tell me I'm running away. I suppose I can comment on his shoes.
How do you know this?
I answered this question in the very post you are quoting from. On my screen, the answer is about 15mm above the sentence you quoted.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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Oops messed up tag, trying again: Upright Biped at 168, Excellent demonstration of the ad hominem you write: And that response will not engage the details of the argument… It’s hard to spot amongst the smoke! Your argumenst?
IC has existed on earth since information organized the first living cell.
How do you know this?Alicia Renard
November 22, 2014
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Upright Biped at 168, Excellent demonstration of the ad hominem you write: And that response will not engage the details of the argument... It's hard to spot amongst the smoke! Your argumenst?
IC has existed on earth since information organized the first living cell.
How do you know this?
Alicia Renard
November 22, 2014
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Upright Biped #168
Take as look at Eric’s comment in #150 where he patiently answers Keith direct question, yet Keith responds by not saying a single word about Eric’s response.
Thanks for pointing that out. Eric's response in #166 was excellent also - beautifully illustrating the absurdity of the chance/materialist position.Silver Asiatic
November 22, 2014
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Watching the comments here and on other threads over these past days, I find it interesting that our emotionally-entangled critic doesn't need a thread of his own to engage his foes in any of his other dubious claims. He defends his claims to Stephen, and William, and Barry, and Eric, and Winston, and Vincent, and any other, without nary a hint of needing a thread of his own to stage a defense. This seems to be a condition he reserves only when asked to defend his supposed rebuttal of my observations and argument. Even when I cut and paste his linked rebuttal onto this very thread and dismantle it right in front of him (#137), he still cannot be moved to defend himself. Instead, he clings to his mental imagery where I am supposed to be afraid to meet him in debate. He carries on this way while he's forced to step over the carcass of his counter argument. Of course, this entire charade about needing a thread of his own was preposterous from the start. If he had a valid argument to make, he would make it. Amid the cognitive dissonance, he recognizes that if you have an informational medium to be translated into a physical effect (such as DNA organizing the cell), it will require a second arrangement of matter to perform the translation while it simultaneously preserves the physicochemical discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and its post-translation effect. This is both a logical necessity and a universal observation - predicted in theory and confirmed by experiment. IC has existed on earth since information organized the first living cell. This is something that the poor man cannot bring himself to admit, hence the avoidance mechanism. And the BS. It's unfortunate that Keith's arguments always boil down to Keith himself, but in some ways its inevitable when a person refuses to respond earnestly within a conversation. Take as look at Eric's comment in #150 where he patiently answers Keith direct question, yet Keith responds by not saying a single word about Eric's response. We can be certain of one thing; with his particular strain of situational delusion driving the bus, he will most certainly have a response to this comment. And that response will not engage the details of the argument; it will be crafted only to reinforce the mental imagery he needs to stay on the field.Upright BiPed
November 22, 2014
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Eric, You are following the well-worn ID path: 1. Make a confident claim. 2. Get challenged on it. 3. Fail to substantiate it. 4. Eat crow. You claimed that it was "trivial" to calculate P(T|H) for a biological phenomenon and that it had been done "many times". I asked you for an example or a link, and you couldn't provide one. I kept asking. You stalled for several comments in a row. Now you admit:
Perhaps we cannot do a full calculation.
Not only can't you do a full calculation, you can't even do a partial calculation well enough to establish design by Dembski's criteria. Dembski can't do it either, as he admits. You are just one more in a long line of ID proponents who have vividly demonstrated the uselessness of CSI for identifying biological design in nature. If no one can do the calculation, the tool is worthless. How does that crow taste?keith s
November 21, 2014
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It’s very hard to see how you could calculate that, which is why CSI, which requires that calculation, remains kind of useless.
Just to make sure I'm understanding, it is your position that (i) Darwinian evolution is a chance-based process, (ii) it is, as a practical matter, impossible with our current state of knowledge to calculate the odds of something like the bacterial flagellum coming about via Darwinian evolution, and, therefore, (iii) we cannot say that the bacterial flagellum meets the "complexity" prong of CSI? Would you say that something like the bacterial flagellum meets the complexity requirement for CSI? What about an entire organism, like a human? What about an initial self-replicating organism in the OOL context? Do any of these qualify as "complex" for purposes of complex specified information?
It’s very hard to see how you could calculate that . . .
Which also means, I presume you would agree, that no-one, including the most ardent promoter of evolutionary theory, has any idea whether evolutionary processes could produce a bacterial flagellum? We have no idea whether such a thing is certain, or likely, or possible, or unlikely, or wildly improbable? So the Darwinist is left to take a very contorted position: We have (i) a system that even folks like Dawkins acknowledge clearly appears designed, (ii) no idea of the likelihood that such a system could ever come about via a Darwinian process, (iii) a good idea (from our experience with technology and other systems) that such a thing could have come about by design. Yet in the face of these facts, the Darwinist says it must have come about by a chance-based process like Darwinian evolution. Hmmmm . . . And what is the reason for rejecting the possibility of design and claiming that a Darwinian process is the right answer? Well, the reason is that the Darwinist has no idea whether his theory has any reasonable probability of producing the system in question. "Ergo," he thinks to himself, "we can't say that my idea is wildly improbable. Therefore, my idea must be right." Talk about cognitive dissonance.
It’s very hard to see how you could calculate that . . .
Perhaps we cannot do a full calculation. Which is part of the point Dembski was apparently making (and which keiths keeps harping on, all the while missing the larger issue). Yet we do know something that is required at a bare minimum: namely, a certain number of proteins of length X. We can leave out for a moment all the difficulties with contemporaneous availability, integration into the cellular systems, construction, feedback, etc. All of those would add layers and layers of complexity and radically reduce the odds of such a system coming about through a chance-based process. But let's be generous and grant all those for now. Let's just take the sequences required for the proteins themselves. Maybe we can't get an exact answer, but we start to get a sense for the scope of the problem and the combinatorial challenge that a Darwinian process would have to overcome. And it doesn't look at all promising. It is highly ironic that Darwinists seem to studiously avoid even analyzing whether these kinds of creative events are remotely possible under their theory. Michael Behe took a good look at what Darwinian processes can actually accomplish in his book, Edge of Evolution. We could argue with Behe's numbers, challenge a number here, nitpick a calculation there. But in contrast to Behe's efforts, so many Darwinists rarely even ask the question; they just assume with blind faith that Darwinian evolution is capable of all this creative work, so they don't even bother checking to see if it is reasonably probable that such a thing could occur. Those who have looked at it, like Behe, have found the power of Darwinian processes to be substantially less than what is required, under even exceedingly generous assumptions for the evolutionary storyline.Eric Anderson
November 21, 2014
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wd400:
Of course — there are many possible outcomes from an evolutionary process, each with some probability. That’s a chance process.
So if there is a probability distribution that means it is a "chance" process? How do you know that? Is a process in which the probability distribution admits only a single outcome therefore a chance process? Don't get me wrong. I think you've made an interesting claim. I'd like to see where it leads. You've admitted the existence of possible outcomes that differ in some way. So if there is no known probability distribution it follows that the process is not a chance process?Mung
November 21, 2014
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Eric, You yourself said that such calculations were "trivial" and had been done many times. When are you going to provide one or link to one?keith s
November 21, 2014
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It's very hard to see how you could calculate that, which is why CSI, which requires that calculation, remains kind of useless.wd400
November 21, 2014
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And what would the probability be of a chance-based evolutionary process (for simplicity say the traditional Darwinian RM+NS process) stumbling upon the 40 or so proteins that makeup the bacterial flagellum?Eric Anderson
November 21, 2014
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Of course -- there are many possible outcomes from an evolutionary process, each with some probability. That's a chance process.wd400
November 21, 2014
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wd400 @154: There is an important nuance here that we might be talking past and that might be worth delving into. But just to make sure I'm understanding, are you saying that Darwinian evolution (and other proposed evolutionary mechanisms) constitutes a "chance" based process?Eric Anderson
November 21, 2014
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Yes, 'Darwinism' is also analogous to the Black Knight. That's a keen insight. It is also bleeding out. And it, too, is in denial. It is only being propped up by its sycophants' delusions, or worse, by their deliberate choice to ignore its wounds for ideological reasons. I predict that in the not too distant future, it will be replaced by panspermia as the anyone-but-God crowd feels Darwinism crumbling beneath their feet. Dawkins is but the first of many.Phinehas
November 20, 2014
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Yes, Phinehas, and 'Darwinism' is going to crumble any day now. :-)keith s
November 20, 2014
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keiths:
I’ve offered to debate you on a dedicated thread here at UD, with everyone watching. Why won’t you accept my offer?
In other words, “Come back here and take what’s coming to you! I’ll bite your legs off!” Don't you get it keiths? Don't you understand why Arthur eventually walks away from the Black Knight? Don't you see that this inevitably becomes the only rational response? There's nothing else one can do when faced with an internal narrative that is so hopelessly disconnected from reality.Phinehas
November 20, 2014
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Eric, to wd400:
The question was, what are the odds of a biological system (DNA sequence, protein, etc.) coming about by chance.
No, it wasn't. 'Chance' is not the same as 'natural processes'. Here is the question:
Eric Anderson:
I hope you aren’t saying that we have to be able to calculate, with precision, the precise probability of a system arising through purely natural processes before we can determine whether CSI exists. [Emphasis added]
keiths:
You don’t need a precise value, but you do need to show that it is less than Dembski’s UPB.
Eric:
Which is trivial to do with many biological systems and has been done many times.
I asked you to link to an example. You couldn't. Now you are calculating something entirely different and trying to pass it off as an answer to the question. Can you supply an answer to the original question, or not?keith s
November 20, 2014
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Upright Biped, You're running away again. I've offered to debate you on a dedicated thread here at UD, with everyone watching. Why won't you accept my offer? If you're not willing to defend your "theory", why should anyone take it seriously?keith s
November 20, 2014
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You are just... horribly wrong about this. The question here is about CSI, which is meant to include all "relevant chance hypothesis". You are talking about an hypothesis that has precisely no relevance to anything in biology.wd400
November 20, 2014
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