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Keith S Shows Learned Hand How a Design Inference Works Using CSI

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In comment 58 to my Actually Observed thread ID opponent keith s shows ID opponent Learned Hand how the design inference works.

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

Keiths then goes on to with some mistaken interpretations of Dembski’s work.  But that’s all right.  The important thing is that even one of our most inveterate opponents agrees with the basic thrust of the design inference. We are making progress.

Ironically, later in the post Learned Hand writes:

I think I’ll start a clock on any ID supporter actually testing whether CSI can detect design without knowing (or assuming) in advance whether the subject is designed.

Well, LH, he is far from an ID supporter, but will keiths example work?

Comments
Upright, Why don't you get one of the UD authors to open a thread for discussion of your "semiotic theory of ID"? I'd love to pose all of those unanswered questions to you in a venue where it will be harder for you to run away from them.keith s
November 18, 2014
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Keith you said:
The problem with the argument from IC is not that it’s circular — it’s that IC is not a barrier to evolution. ... I am talking about evolution as described by modern evolutionary theory. Essentially Darwinian evolution as you described it plus drift.
And so I asked:
So that would entail some sort of informational medium being passed from parent to progeny, where it would be translated into phenotypic traits of some sort and lead to the differential reproductive success that drives evolution. Is that correct?
Is that correct?Upright BiPed
November 18, 2014
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Upright Biped, Every time we discuss your "semiotic theory of ID" you flee the discussion when things start going badly for you. What I'm trying to avoid is wasting time refuting you, only to see you bail out of the discussion yet again. Here's the latest example: A (repeated) challenge to Upright Biped There are a lot of unanswered questions for you in that thread and others at TSZ. Are you brave enough to answer them?keith s
November 18, 2014
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Tim, If you want calculations of CSI in Hamlet, there is a whole thread dedicated to calculating something similar : dFSCI for Sonnets here The author of that thread too is grappling with specification problem. May be you can help.Me_Think
November 18, 2014
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Mung @ 117 You determine a pile of rocks is Roughly equally probable by Thermodynamic ??!Me_Think
November 18, 2014
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You noticed too Mung? It appears that Keith does not want to have his claim about IC scrutinized, and does not care to defend it. This is not in the least bit surprising.Upright BiPed
November 18, 2014
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wd400:
How do you determine if states are “Roughly equally probable”?
Thermodynamics.Mung
November 18, 2014
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Upright BiPed:
So that would entail some sort of informational medium being passed from parent to progeny, where it would be translated into phenotypic traits of some sort and lead to the differential reproductive success that drives evolution. Is that correct?
Let me quote Wagner, who keiths seems so enamored of lately:
One of them [life's mysteries] was left in especially deep shadows: the mechanism of heritability. Without some mechanism that guarantees faithful inheritance from parents to offspring, adaptations ... cannot persist over time. And without inheritance, natural selection would be powerless.
"The laws governing inheritance are for the most part unknown." - Charles Darwin But now, now that we understand what is required to store and transmit information, not so much. Is that your point? Is that what keiths is avoiding?Mung
November 18, 2014
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Tim:
I have offered you an opportunity to really set us straight, but you ignore it and editorialize. Why?
Tim, I ignore the "opportunity" because I don't need it. I can show the uselessness of CSI for detecting biological design without jumping through your hoops. How useful is a method that's been around for more than a decade but has never been used to demonstrate the existence of biological design -- even by its inventor?keith s
November 18, 2014
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Tim, If you think that CSI is useful, it's up to you to demonstrate it (or to point to someone else's demonstration of it's usefulness. Eric is presumably off looking for such a demonstration right now). If you don't think that CSI is useful, then we're in agreement. If you think that CSI is useful but can't be calculated for naturally occurring biological phenomena like the flagellum, then you're in the same boat with Dembski. The reason I can't calculate P(T|H) for the flagellum is the same reason that Dembski can't do it. Nobody has the knowledge required to do the calculation. And it is sad: Dembski proposed a method for identifying biological design, but his own method defeated him.keith s
November 18, 2014
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You can call it whatever you want "handholding, etc . . ."; I've offered you an opportunity to demonstrate as opposed to being merely argumentative. It is useless on your part to change the game, now suggesting that I call CSI "valuable". Your refusal to walk us through, handholding or not, the most rudimentary example of a NON-naturally occurring biological phenomena when it could prove your point of this whole discussion just makes your stance, still unjustified, nothing more than mere assertion. Give us one stupid, easy-to-follow example, draw distinctions, and that's that. Again, not the whole exact calculations, just an outline of the method to get us started. You waste more time twisting moving about, etc . . . why not just go for the throat? Believe me, we all know that you are happy to critique. The problem lies in the fact that you think your critiques up to this point are devastating to the ID concept, but they are not. I have offered you an opportunity to really set us straight, but you ignore it and editorialize. Why? No, don't answer that! Just do the project.Tim
November 18, 2014
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Phinehas, According to you, my argument has suffered "humiliating defeat after humiliating defeat" at the hands of folks like WJM and Box. If so, then why not go to this thread and express their bone-crushing arguments in your own words? I'll respond, and you can savor another resounding victory -- or more likely, you'll limp away, chastened.keith s
November 18, 2014
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A thing is Complex if it has many (roughly) equally probable states/configurations. E.g. a pile of 500 stones, half black, half white, all mixed together. The set of all possible states/configurations can be considered the search space for our probability calculation. How do you determine if states are "Roughly equally probable"?wd400
November 18, 2014
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A thing is Complex if it has many (roughly) equally probable states/configurations. E.g. a pile of 500 stones, half black, half white, all mixed together. The set of all possible states/configurations can be considered the search space for our probability calculation. How do you determine if states are "Roughly equally probable"?wd400
November 18, 2014
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Tim, I'm not willing to hand-hold you through a calculation of CSI for Hamlet or anything else. If you think that CSI is valuable, it's up to you to demonstrate it. Do you think CSI can be used to detect design in naturally occurring biological phenomena? If so, then show us. I'll be happy to critique your work once you've done that, but I am not going to do the work for you.keith s
November 18, 2014
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Learned Hand:
Yeah, like you say I think our approaches are fairly similar. I think that puts me further away from understanding, though, because I don’t think that this has much in common with CSI. I don’t see where you’re really even considering complexity or specification. Maybe you’re thinking more along the lines of explanatory filter? Dembski says specified complexity is just an extension of the EF, I think, but I don’t see the extended parts in your approach.
You probably didn't see the extended parts because I was describing it in a generalised manner. The uniquely identifiable feature of the kinds of things I do/create that are a result of my ability to reason, is CSI. I can certainly do/create things that do not exhibit CSI, but they cannot consistently be distinguished from events that were not the result of my actions (leaving other humans to the side for the moment).
My point in that paragraph was just what Keith and others have been trying to explain for quite a while: you can’t calculate CSI formally until you know whether or not the subject could have come about through non-design means (such as random chance or evolution). So if you can’t calculate CSI until you’ve already ruled out everything but design, CSI doesn’t actually detect design. Ewert made this point recently, which was interesting because I didn’t realize anyone inside the ID movement acknowledged this issue. I don’t quite understand what the point of CSI is to Ewert, but obviously most people here do think of it as a design detector.
You say that CSI can't be calculated until after you have ruled out non-design, but but CSI is the calculation that rules out non-design. You need to know both the Complexity of the thing in question and its Specification in order to do any probability calculation at all. A thing is Complex if it has many (roughly) equally probable states/configurations. E.g. a pile of 500 stones, half black, half white, all mixed together. The set of all possible states/configurations can be considered the search space for our probability calculation. The Specification is the target space. One we have both the the search space and target space we can perform the probability calculation. The result, when expressed in bits, is the Information.StephenA
November 18, 2014
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keith s @102 you were non-responsive and argumentative:
For any phenomenon whatsoever, whether biological or not, P(T|H) represents the probability of that phenonemon’s arising via “Darwinian and other material mechanisms”. Obviously, that means you have to consider all relevant non-design mechanisms.
If it is so obvious, it will be no problem for you to be clear. Furthermore, I did not ask you to put your "evolutionary biologist hat on." Just outline the following: given Hamlet, what non-design mechanisms would you consider in calculating CSI using P(T|H)? just a rough outline of what you would do . . . I'll ask the bystanders not to nitpick. See, one possibility is that you'll outline the CSI using a method folks find plausible AND that you'll point out how it couldn't in principle work for biological phenomenon and you score BIG POINTS, but one possibility is that your outline of steps in the calculation for Hamlet would not be any different than the steps for a biological phenomenon (personally I think this is the case), one other possibility is that according to your prerequisites, it is impossible for the CSI even for Hamlet to be to be calculated (thus exposing either your method or prerequisites as a sham.) Editorializing with "Sad, isn't it." is tiresome. Just be clear and score your points. Try not to be a troll.Tim
November 18, 2014
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Eric, I do hope you'll provide a link. I'm quite curious to see how this "trivial" calculation is carried out.keith s
November 18, 2014
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keiths:
A lot of people say things like that. Then they try to refute the argument, and fail. It’s been almost a month now with no refutation.
Only according to keiths' distorted internal narrative is the above even close to the truth. The rest of us have watched it suffer humiliating defeat after humiliating defeat, most notably at the hands of WJM and Box. The fact that keiths remains impervious to these defeats says more about keiths than about his "argument."Phinehas
November 18, 2014
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Eric,
Which is trivial to do with many biological systems and has been done many times.
Are you sure about that? As I just pointed out, even Dembski admits that he hasn't done it. Can you link to an example?keith s
November 18, 2014
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keiths:
You don’t need a precise value, but you do need to show that it is less than Dembski’s UPB.
Which is trivial to do with many biological systems and has been done many times.Eric Anderson
November 18, 2014
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Tim, For any phenomenon whatsoever, whether biological or not, P(T|H) represents the probability of that phenonemon's arising via "Darwinian and other material mechanisms". Obviously, that means you have to consider all relevant non-design mechanisms. Good luck with that.
And then, what would be really cool, would be for you to identify which of those protocols, algorithms, definitions, etc within the calculations for determining the CSI of Hamlet are proscribed when dealing with natural organisms. Otherwise, I am afraid that your assertion remains more like “jello” on the wall. Not only tough for us to nail down; but also tough for us to care about, either, as it slides down the wall under its own weight.
You're forgetting something obvious: evolutionary biologists don't use CSI. Why would they? It's a useless concept for them. The only people who use CSI are IDers, so they are the ones who are saddled with calculating P(T|H). Dembski was rather foolish. He imposed a requirement on himself that he could not meet. As he admits, he tried and failed to calculate P(T|H) for the flagellum, and as far as I know he hasn't even attempted to calculate it for any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon. It's sad, isn't it?keith s
November 18, 2014
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HeKS,
I went and read your article at TSZ as requested. Having done so, I now think your argument is worse than I originally thought...
A lot of people say things like that. Then they try to refute the argument, and fail. It's been almost a month now with no refutation.
...so why don’t you start by addressing what I said and we can go from there as we have time.
Repost your comment on this thread, which is the most recent thread discussing my argument. I'll respond there.keith s
November 18, 2014
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keith s @85, I am not disputing your claim. I am asking you to clarify it. You wrote,
To calculate CSI, you need to be able to calculate P(T|H). No one has ever been able to do that for a naturally occurring biological phenomenon.
I am asking for you to comment on the calculation of CSI using P(T|H) which you require according to what you wrote. But instead of using a "naturally occurring biological phenomenon", I'd like you to discuss the methods of something, almost anything, else. (Yes. Let's use Hamlet.) I mean, you obviously believe CSI exists as you have even told us how it must be calculated. I just want you to outline, even roughly, how that calculation would look for Hamlet. And then, what would be really cool, would be for you to identify which of those protocols, algorithms, definitions, etc within the calculations for determining the CSI of Hamlet are proscribed when dealing with natural organisms. Otherwise, I am afraid that your assertion remains more like "jello" on the wall. Not only tough for us to nail down; but also tough for us to care about, either, as it slides down the wall under its own weight.Tim
November 18, 2014
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Eric Anderson:
I hope you aren’t saying that we have to be able to calculate, with precision, the precise probability of a system arising through purely natural processes before we can determine whether CSI exists.
You don't need a precise value, but you do need to show that it is less than Dembski's UPB.keith s
November 18, 2014
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keiths: I hope you aren't saying that we have to be able to calculate, with precision, the precise probability of a system arising through purely natural processes before we can determine whether CSI exists. That is an argument Elizabeth Liddle has been putting forth for a long time. And it is a terrible argument. Indeed, it is hardly even an argument. It is a cop-out position to take in order to avoid dealing with the evidence for design. I hope you are putting forth something more substantive with your repeated references to calculating P(T|H).Eric Anderson
November 18, 2014
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keith s:
To calculate CSI, you need to be able to calculate P(T|H).
No, you don't. One can calculate CSI by the methodology in "No Free Lunch" The other equation pertains only to S. Also your position needs to provide H and it has FAILed miserably.Joe
November 18, 2014
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keith s:
I await any ID proponent’s demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon is designed.
And we have done so. OTOH you have not been able to demonstrate that unguided evolution can do anything beyond causing disease and deformities. The whole world has been waiting over a century for that demonstration. And we understand why people like you avoid such a thing.Joe
November 18, 2014
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keith s:
I pointed out that no one has been able to compute P(T|H) for a naturally occurring biological phenomenon,
And we have pointed out that is a problem for unguided evolution. That you choose to ignore that fact says quite a bit about you.Joe
November 18, 2014
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Heks @93 Don't get your hopes up..... I'm (little twerp) on ignore for asking a simple question..... I hope he would reconsider but alas nothing..........Andre
November 18, 2014
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