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KF Cuts to the Chase (Again)

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My last post elicited some extremely interesting responses. As a reminder, we are considering the following two strings of text, the first of which resulted from haphazard banging on a keyboard and the second of which is the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy:

#1:
OipaFJPSDIOVJN;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZD
VZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoidfaf;asdfj;asdj[ije888
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsa
dfviojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijsdsd;ja;dfksdasd
XKLZVsda2398R3495687OipaFJPSDIOVJN
;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZDVZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoi
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsadfvi
ojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijssdv.kasd994834234908u
XKLZVsda2398R34956873ACKLVJD;asdkjad
Sd;fjwepuJWEPFIhfasd;asdjf;asdfj;adfjasd;ifj
;asdjaiojaijeriJADOAJSD;FLVJASD;FJASDF;
DOAD;ADFJAdkdkas;489468503-202395ui34

#2:
To be, or not to be, that is the question—
Whether ’tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them? To die, to sleep—
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? ‘Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Jeffrey Shallit is on record saying:

String #2’s [Shakespeare] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than string #1 [keyboard pounding]: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!

In my last post I asked various ID critics the following question: Do you agree with Shallit that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are ‘more random’ than a string of characters resulting from haphazard banging on a keyboard?”

My thinking has evolved on this point, and upon reflection I have decided it was a meaningless question (to which I also got the answer wrong). I have decided the question is like asking which is more blue, the sky on a cloudless day or Beethoven’s 9th Symphony? Only one of those things partakes of blueness at all. Therefore, asking which of the two things is “more blue” is meaningless.

Similarly, only one of the two strings in question partakes of randomness at all. Therefore, asking which is “more random” is meaningless. It follows that Shallit was more wrong than I thought when he said string #2 was more random than string #1. Shakespeare carefully arranged every single letter in string #2. Therefore, with respect to any meaningful definition of “random,” string #2 exhibits ZERO randomness. Therefore, to speak of it as exhibiting “more” randomness than any other string, much less a string generated by haphazard keyboard banging, is absurd.

KF, as he so often does, cut to the heart of the matter and helped me think this through with his comment 107:

If one has a proposed definition of randomness that assigns the first twelve lines of the Hamlet soliloquy to being even remotely regarded as random, on the face of it, the definition (as used . . . abused?) fails.

KF also points us to this excellent paper: Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information:

Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction. Random and Ordered Sequence Complexities lie at opposite ends of the same bi-directional sequence complexity vector. Randomness in sequence space is defined by a lack of Kolmogorov algorithmic compressibility. A sequence is compressible because it contains redundant order and patterns. Law-like cause-and-effect determinism produces highly compressible order. Such forced ordering precludes both information retention and freedom of selection so critical to algorithmic programming and control. Functional Sequence Complexity requires this added programming dimension of uncoerced selection at successive decision nodes in the string. Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).

A final note: Mark Frank [74] and RObb [76] point to Bill Dembski’s work and appear to suggest that Dembski would agree with Shallit, i.e., that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are “more random” than a string of text achieved by banging away at a keyboard, and Daniel King [84] mocks me for failing to realize this.

Gentlemen, when your conclusion is absurd on its face, you really should stop and re-think it before you post it. And Daniel, you should be careful to ensure that you are correct before you mock someone. Otherwise, you look foolish. In response I will state the obvious and give you a clue.

The obvious: Dembski would not agree that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are random in any meaningful sense of that word. He would conclude those lines were, without the slightest doubt, designed.

A clue: Re-read Dembski’s work. Here is a line you should start with from one of the papers linked by Robb. “As with Shannon information, there is a disconnect between Kolmogorov complexity and conceptual information.”

Comments
HeKS:
I saw that. I’ll comment when I get some time. Currently trying to resolve some bugs for work.
There are no intelligently designed bugs. Eliminate the intelligently designed code and you'll expose the bug. Contact me for banking information.Mung
October 10, 2014
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kf@11: You've got to be kidding me -- it was a moth!? I hope not a peppered one. :) That was one of the "bugs" in the evolutionary storyline that got everything off track.Eric Anderson
October 9, 2014
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SteRusJon: Well said.Eric Anderson
October 9, 2014
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HehHeKS
October 9, 2014
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HeKS: The original bug: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug#mediaviewer/File:H96566k.jpg KFkairosfocus
October 9, 2014
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Eric, Mark briefly responded to my comment to you above. He repeated his diverting tactic. In the originating post 274 of the thread "On not putting all your theological eggs into one basket" Barry asked a question in reference to the two text examples. I quote with context.
Both groups are complex. One group was constructed through random strokes on a keyboard. The other was designed. Can you tell which is which? Certainly you can. And just as certainly it is not the degree of complexity that allows you to tell the difference. If anything, the random group is more complex than the designed group. If the designed group is less complex than the chance group, there must be something other than complexity that allows you to detect design. What do you think that something is?
Where, pray tell, is there a challenge to identify how they share randomness? The challenge is to identify what makes one obviously different than the other. That challenge requires the ID opponent to consider non-physical realities such as ideas, concepts, messages, functionality, meanings, specificity etc. A place that the ID opponent refuses to go. Mark wrote that when the conversation was dragged back on to the actual topic he lost interest. He a simply stated that he is not interested in the central question of the ID paradigm. If that is so, why is he here? Sadly, from my perspective, Mark confirmed that he is among the obstinate obstructionists to addressing the realities exampled by the text from Hamlet and the "hello world" example I once used. In place of addressing the issue really at hand he would rather divert to telling us how multiple minds, instead of just a single mind, are the source of the Hamlet passage and his knowledge of that fact. ID opponents- What properties or characteristics are present in Hamlet's soliloquy and the "hello world" program that are not present in any random text string that suits your fancy? How can we go about putting those empirical observations onto a firm scientific footing? Are you going to advance science or continue to obstruct? StephenSteRusJon
October 9, 2014
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SteRusJon:
My suspicion- ID opponents fear the outcome of the application of the scientific method to the question.
That is precisely what is going on.Eric Anderson
October 8, 2014
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#107 Cantor As I understand it, (and I do not pretend to be an expert) KC compression, which is the established criterion for randomness Shallitt is using, includes restrictions on the types of compression algorithm that can be used. A compression algorithm that included an English dictionary would not be permissable.Mark Frank
October 8, 2014
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104 Mark Frank October 8, 2014 at 8:31 am Counter-intuitively it turns out to that there is good (not conclusive) evidence that it is the Hamlet sequence.
If you select a compression algorithm that includes an unabridged English dictionary, the Hamlet sequence compresses more. So to mockingly claim that Hamlet is "more random" simply because it is less compressible using one specific algorithm (gzip), as Shallit did, seems disingenuous. .cantor
October 8, 2014
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MF #104
I don’t think anyone is denying there is an important difference between string 1 and string 2.
I think that's what this entire (often absurd) discussion has been about. Some have claimed that string #2 is more random and then walked away after that. It's a childish game, in my opinion. But beyond that, what is the "important difference" between the two strings? How do you define it? For one thing, I observe you saying quite a lot about string #2 -- you go into some fascinating historical details on how it was designed. So, one obvious difference is that there is virtually nothing to say about string #1 except that it shows some slightly non-random elements and through design-detection some have recognized it as coming from standard keyboard combinations. But back to my questions: You've asserted that there is an important difference between the strings (and nobody denied this). Could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion? I'll guess that you find more than one important difference also - right?Silver Asiatic
October 8, 2014
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@Mark Frank, I saw that. I'll comment when I get some time. Currently trying to resolve some bugs for work.HeKS
October 8, 2014
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VB, HeKS I responded on the How is ID Different thread as requested. As I am here anyway. SteRusJon - I don't think anyone is denying there is an important difference between string 1 and string 2. The initial debate was purely about whether one was more random than the other in according to a precise (and widely used) definition of random. Counter-intuitively it turns out to that there is good (not conclusive) evidence that it is the Hamlet sequence. Somehow it seemed to get sidetracked into a discussion about which string is more meaningful, or contains more information. That's when I dropped out. However, while we are sidetracked :-) I was amused by Box’s comment on #94 which happened to touch on something I know a bit about.
The deeper reason as to why Hamlet’s soliloquy is unmeasurable by gzip is that the intelligent designer Shakespeare is a oneness.
I have only a vague idea what this sentence means but one thing is for certain – many people other than Shakespeare combined to produce the precise arrangement of characters in string #2 and there is almost certainly some variation that is just accident not designed by anybody.  * We do not have access to the words of Hamlet as written by Shakespeare. All we have is the two quartos - which were probably created from a combination of things such as prompt copies and people writing down what they remember the actors saying – and the folio which was more formal but written several years after his death. * The three versions differ considerably and none are the same as string #2 which is the result of several scholars working on the different versions and coming up with their best guess. * There was no standard spelling in Shakespeare’s time. The chances of him spelling all the words the same way as either the quartos, or the folio, or string #2 are negligible. * Although there was such a thing as printing in Shakespeare’s time, it would have been far too expensive for the few copies needed for an acting company.  He must have written it out in hand. He or someone else would then have used the master copy to duplicate, by hand, the other texts that were needed – prompt copy, actors parts and cues, etc. So there was plenty of scope for misreading and accidental error in duplication. I don’t think oneness is the right word somehow.Mark Frank
October 8, 2014
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Eric, Thanks for your attempt to focus the discussion where it should be in your post #96 and #97. Some time back, years now I think, I challenged in these threads one Alan Fox, with a pair of roughly equal length texts. My example asked him if there was any difference between some "gibberish" and the instructional "hello world" program often found in computer programming texts. The denial on his part was a wonder to behold. He refused to acknowledge the obvious property displayed by the simplest of computer programming. What amazes me in these discussions is the unscientific attitude of these people. There is an obvious quality, property, of text sequences such as the "hello world" and Hamlet's Soliloquy not exhibited by "gibberish" that begs for scientific qualification and quantification independent of the existential issues of ID . If properly done, with scientific rigor, the results could be confidently applied by either side of the issue of the ID question. My suspicion- ID opponents fear the outcome of the application of the scientific method to the question. StephenSteRusJon
October 8, 2014
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@vividbleau That was it. Thanks a lot. HeKSHeKS
October 7, 2014
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Heks " How is ID Different" is the thread. Started by BA Oct 4. Paul Giem had questions that went unanswered as well. Vividvividbleau
October 7, 2014
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Heks RE 86 The thread I think you are looking for had "ID" as part of it. I think that is the one. I too had questions for Mark in that thread but he disappeared. Hope he responds. I am curious has to how he knows that evolution is probable even though he doesn't know what the probability is exactly. I am also curious has to how he calculates the probability of Gods existence as essentially 0. Vividvividbleau
October 7, 2014
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It is the fallacy that there is some kind of mathematical language that expresses “information” explicitly and correctly, and that is how all “information” should be gauged.
And let us not forget, there is an intractable physical reason this is the case.Upright BiPed
October 7, 2014
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There is far too much repetition of long segments containing widely separated keys in that first string for it to have been produced by "haphazard banging on a keyboard". RoyRoy
October 7, 2014
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Follow up to 96: Let me put it this way: The only purpose of assessing "randomness," or Shannon entropy, or complexity, or any similar characteristic of an object is to ascertain whether or not we are dealing with necessity, in other words, whether we are dealing with a deterministic, law-like process. Randomness/entropy/complexity can help us make that determination. Once that determination is made, we are done with randomness/entropy/complexity. It doesn't bring anything else useful to the table in helping us determine whether something was designed. At that point we have to turn to specification, which is a different concept entirely. Trying to use randomness as a determiner of design is a category mistake. It cannot get you where you are trying to go. It is not capable of being used to make that determination. It can only shed more heat than light, as the recent discussions have underscored.Eric Anderson
October 7, 2014
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And, yet again, some commenters veer immediately off course, questioning the true "randomness" of the first string, navel-gazing about whether anything is ever really random, and on and on. Look, forget about the first string Barry created. Come up with your own truly random string and substitute it in place of the first string. Then deal with the real issue, which is specification. At one end of the spectrum is something truly random (whatever you in your heart of hearts may think is a good example thereof). At the other end of the spectrum is a truly non-random, deterministic, law-like process. Somewhere in the middle -- sometimes closer to one end, sometimes closer to the other, based on whatever measurement criterion we want to use -- are specifications. Whether a designed string is "more" or "less" random than some non-designed string depends on the particular example in question. More importantly, it is largely irrelevant to the real issues involved in the design inference.Eric Anderson
October 7, 2014
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OT: Danny Macaskill: The Ridge - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ_IQS3VKjA The Ridge is the brand new film from Danny Macaskill... For the first time in one of his films Danny climbs aboard a mountain bike and returns to his native home of the Isle of Skye in Scotland to take on a death-defying ride along the notorious Cuillin Ridgeline.bornagain77
October 7, 2014
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The deeper reason as to why Hamlet’s soliloquy is unmeasurable by gzip is that the intelligent designer Shakespeare is a oneness. And this oneness - and its top-down causation - is reflected in Hamlet’s soliloquy. How? The information in these lines cannot be explained "bottom-up". On the contrary the information/meaning comes from above. The letters derive meaning from words, the words derive meaning from sentences, the sentences .. and so on. This ripple effect of information/meaning into widening circles of context - only ending with Shakespeare - will be for ever irreducible to data bits. And that's why a materialist, like Shallit, fails.Box
October 7, 2014
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@BA:
Box is right. I did not ask Dembski a meaningless question.
You may think that this question "Is String #2 more random than String #1?" is meaningless. But it is relevant one, as you state:
Mark Frank [74] and RObb [76] point to Bill Dembski’s work and appear to suggest that Dembski would agree with Shallit, i.e., that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are “more random” than a string of text achieved by banging away at a keyboard, and Daniel King [84] mocks me for failing to realize this. Gentlemen, when your conclusion is absurd on its face, you really should stop and re-think it before you post it.
You may be surprised by W. Dembski's answer! But all of us should take your advice at heart:
you should be careful to ensure that you are correct before you mock someone. Otherwise, you look foolish.
DiEb
October 7, 2014
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Using compression to test randomness is height of stupidity. If we take jGuy @ 2 strings, the 1st string compresses to 380 bytes and 2nd string (all As) compresses to 105 bytes with Winrar. It shows that the 1st string is more random – which is true ! So will Shallit argue that in this case the compression technique is wrong ?
Why should he? AAAAA... is less random than OipaFJ..., which is less random than To be,...DiEb
October 7, 2014
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This discussion seems very interesting, but it's above my pay grade. Here's a kind of 'ot' issue that I would like to bring it up to your attention, in order to hear your opinion on it: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/darwinian-evolution-is-not-true-but-then-it-doesnt-need-to-be/#comment-518218 Thank you.Dionisio
October 7, 2014
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The sad part about this random debate is if you know how to do the calculation Jeffrey did then it is a given that you would know that sequence 2 was designed and as such shouldn't even have been attempted to be compressed. People whining about prior knowledge when in fact it takes prior knowledge in order to do the calculations.Joe
October 7, 2014
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Using compression to test randomness is height of stupidity. If we take jGuy @ 2 strings, the 1st string compresses to 380 bytes and 2nd string (all As) compresses to 105 bytes with Winrar. It shows that the 1st string is more random - which is true ! So will Shallit argue that in this case the compression technique is wrong ?the bystander
October 7, 2014
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MF: Pardon but if something B is "more random" than A, it implies assignment of a common infusion of randomness to both. Further, A is a product of haphazard keystrokes which is strongly though not flat even distribution across ASCII characters random. So, the assertion is that B is more random than that as assigned by K-compressibility. This is patently flawed, as B is coherent text in English with every letter etc in a carefully chosen, intelligently directed, world class awesome place. B is not random at all, and the abuse of K-compressibility that wants to suggest that it is, is nonsense. I again suggest you read the Trevors and Abel 2005 paper on OSC, RSC and FSC, to clarify the three distinct possibilities, with particular attention to Fig. 4. Otherwise, with all due respect, you are in danger of obfuscating rather than elucidating truth, by manifesting the contemptuous attitude of zero concessions to those IDiots that is without excuse. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2014
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IDS: Yes, it is by our knowledge of English across the centuries that we recognise complex, specific functionality in the string from Hamlet. On that strength, we THEN address, can such be credibly accessed by a blind chance and necessity search/sample of the population of possibilities? The answer on search window to scope of config space and necessary isolation of such islands of function is obvious. No. This illustrates the power of the design inference on detection of FSCO/I and to tax that with, oh you are not producing a universal decoder algorithm is first irrelevant. Second, as a glance at theory of computation will assure us that such a universal algorithm is utterly implausible, it is in effect saying unless you do the near or actual impossible as well, I will not listen to what you are doing successfully. Please rethink. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2014
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@Mark Frank #85 Ok, great. I think what I wanted to discuss was in the Phillip Johnson / Bayesian Priors thread but I can't quite remember. I'll take a look when I get a chance and then we can discuss it a bit.HeKS
October 7, 2014
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