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Larry Moran doesn’t like any of us, not sure why

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Jonathan McLatchie writes to mention that University of Toronto biochemist Larry Moran is hot on the trail again, this time in response to McLatchie’s vid (below) “Is ID a science?”

I agree that many ID proponents try to use the science way of knowing to prove that creator gods must have built some complex molecular structures inside modern cells. They try to use evidence and they try to use rational thinking to arrive at logical conclusions. That qualifies as science, in my opinion, even though ID proponents fail to make their case. They don’t have the evidence and their logic is faulty. It’s science but it’s bad science.

Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.

Unclear what Dr. Moran means by “genuine scientists” here, if he agrees that ID is science. Would like to know what else he calls “bad science.”

But, you know, he might be onto a different argument next month.

In a curious passage, he writes,

As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.1 It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.

Tip from an old news hack: When people talk in the impersonal third person about an agglomeration of individuals, they are spouting propaganda.

Such people might be correct or not, but correctness does not correlate at all with this type of self-expression.

For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.

But now, to address the point: Why would the scientists at, say, Biologic Institute and Evolutionary Information Lab, stop us writer types from exposing Darwin’s and other nonsense—and spend their time doing it themselves instead of working at the bench or laptop?

But let us say they agreed to do so. Would Dr. Moran like to rid the world of all the bimboes, bimbettes, twits and twerps, dumboes, stumboes, and yo-yos on Airhead TV who claim to “believe in” evolution (= half-remembered Darwinism from high school)?

He’d have a way bigger job than us. Perhaps that is why he shows no sign of getting around to it.

Then, from Dr. Moran, we hear in closing,

This is why a spokesman for ID appears on a Christian apolgetics podcast even though the Pastor who runs the show is not a scientist and probably doesn’t accept scientific results. He knows, just as you and I know, that ID is a front for creationism. It’s an attempt to dress up creationism in a lab coat and that’s why so many Christian fundamentalists support it even thought they don’t give a damn about science.

Huh? Didn’t Dr. Moran just say that he thought ID “qualifies as science, in my opinion,” though bad science …?

Oh, you know, it doesn’t pay to try to make sense of it. This is what retirement will be for. He can spend all his time writing this stuff, and he’ll have a big following too.

Incidentally, Dr. Moran now claims that Vincent Torley’s credibility has gone way up. Sorry, Larry, the ship has sailed. No one is looking for the mid-last century faithful to establish credibility in this area now. When I sensed change on the winds, I sure sniffed right*.

Some facts of possible interest: Paul Nelson is a philosopher whose specialty is evolutionary biology. That’s actually way more useful than evolutionary biologists who moonlight as amateur philosophers.

John West has a political science background and is a senior manager at Discovery Institute, and David Klinghoffer is an editor there (sometimes my editor at a different day job, my series at Evolution News & Views). Casey Luskin has Earth Science degrees but, as he is also a lawyer, works mainly as legal counsel at DI.

Barry Arrington is a lawyer in private practice who sometimes offer insights from his experiences in that capacity in his posts. He is the president of Uncommon Descent, Inc., a Colorado non-profit, where I usually work.

*I am, as noted above, an old news hack who got sick of the stinkpile of stale ideas around Darwinism and—more significantly—sensed change on the winds.

William Lane Craig is a Discovery Institute fellow. To hear Larry Krauss (Dawkins’ heir?) go on about him, I can see why he attracts the attention of Darwin’s faithful and their friends.

A list of Discovery Institute fellows. Barry Arrington and I are not on it.

What I like best about my job: It gets to be more fun every year.

Here’s the vid:

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
You cannot escape design – resistance is futile.
One exception: the Designer is not designed!daveS
October 23, 2015
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"How do two gas molecules meet?" So "How do two gas molecules meet?" is now an answer to my question? Bravo. "We provided a simple example, the horn of a rhinoceros. Another is contingency in Lenski’s Experiment." The illusion is strong with this one.Vy
October 23, 2015
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"A chance meeting is, by definition, not by design." Zach, definitions are designed too. You cannot escape design - resistance is futile. Also, Chance is an important part of the design. Dr Dembski discusses in his book "Being as Communion". Profound book btw.ppolish
October 23, 2015
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Zachriel:
We provided a simple example
More lies. Your name is Croteau. You are just one lonely liar in a basement somewhere, not a "we". Stop lying.Mapou
October 23, 2015
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Vy: how exactly do you chance to meet anyone anywhere? How do two gas molecules meet? bFast: Larry Moran wants to distance himself from neo-Darwinism because he sees the position to be mocked. Moran distances himself from Darwinism, because he thinks that evolution is best explained by a plurality of mechanisms. bFast: However, even their position, if I understand correctly, is that there are specific mechanisms at work; mechanisms that were ostensibly developed via RM+NS. We provided a simple example, the horn of a rhinoceros. Another is contingency in Lenski's Experiment.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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RM+NS is powerless against the combinatorial explosion. This is the main reason that all Darwinists are liars. Darwinian evolution is the big daddy of all pseudoscientific crap.Mapou
October 23, 2015
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A chance meeting is, by definition, not by design.
Even if they were both there by design?Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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Zachriel (20) RM*+NS is usually a shorthand for Neodarwinism, which is generally an adaptationist position. Balderdash! Larry Moran wants to distance himself from neo-Darwinism because he sees the position to be mocked. He likes to think of his theory as somehow fundamentally different. While his theory is a variant, it is still naturalistic goo. In a way it is worse goo than the classic position. However, his position, your position and class neo-Darwinian position are bound to the realm of RM+NS. The only exception I can find (kinda) is the "third way" position. However, even their position, if I understand correctly, is that there are specific mechanisms at work; mechanisms that were ostensibly developed via RM+NS. It is, in my opinion, fair to suggest that mechanisms developed via RM+NS are "naturalistic". However, mechanisms developed via RM+NS still are part of the RM+NS paradigm. More importantly, however, even such mechanisms are not involved in Larry Moran's pet theory. His theory, simply, is that there are more neutral (or nearly neutral) mutations available than all that. The caveat, I think, is that natural selection isn't super-duper sensitive. His position is way within the realm of RM+NS. There is nothing in the naturalistic evolutionary theory that is outside the realm of RM+NS. Nothing. Period. To argue otherwise is to declare foolishness.bFast
October 23, 2015
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Er, how exactly do you chance to meet anyone anywhere? Chanceology may be self-explanatory to you (it is after all the basis of your pet-theory) but don't assume it is to us.Vy
October 23, 2015
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asauber: I don’t see any explanation here. Because it wasn't an explanation, but examples, which should have been self-explanatory. There are many types of happenstance. Evolution concerns changes in heritable traits in populations, so contingency in evolution refers to changes which may or may not be repeated even if the same conditions recur. ppolish: Chancing to meet your friend on the Rue de Passy in Paris is one type of happenstance that is guided, purposeful, and founded on design. A chance meeting is, by definition, not by design.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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Larry Moran:
The good news is that it reveals what ID is all about.
The sad part is that you don't have any clue what ID is all about.Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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I suspect groovamos at #27 is irony deficient.Larry Moran
October 23, 2015
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Mapou points out that I wrote "lot's" instead of "lots." Thanks for catching that typo, Mapou. I fixed ti.Larry Moran
October 23, 2015
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Denyse O'Leary says, "The beauty of this situation,Larry, is that YOU can feel at home here." Right. Reading all these comments makes me feel right at home. The good news is that it reveals what ID is all about.Larry Moran
October 23, 2015
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Mapou: The Morans and Coyne and Myers of this world need to be cut down to size. I wouldn't get worked up over them. These particular three are not important enough to worry about. Ask everyone you know if they have ever heard of them. They probably haven't. They are players in a largely irrelevant ideology/subculture. And I would hazard that rarely does anyone worry about such things on their death bed.mike1962
October 23, 2015
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Moran: (in reference to Barry and Denyse) I know full well that the Discovery Institute has low standards for accepting fellows but not that low. So we get a snide quip about standards from a guy basing some kind of "scientific" agenda on an ad hominem approach. Keep it up Larry. The average person witnessing this kind of behavior is smarter and more mature than you think. I mean, talk about standards.groovamos
October 23, 2015
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Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.
It's lots, not lot's. Moran is an elitist with a rather poor understanding of English grammar. And this is coming from a professor, no less.Mapou
October 23, 2015
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Moran is an elitist blowhard. Like most scientists and especially Darwinists, he falsely preaches that there is something special about science that needs years of education to learn. But it's all lies. Science is just trial and error. Everybody does it from birth. Here's what Paul Feyerabend had to say about the likes of Larry Moran in his watershed book Against Method:
"The most stupid procedures and the most laughable result in their domain are surrounded with an aura of excellence. It is time to cut them down to size and to give them a lower position in society."
The Morans and Coyne and Myers of this world need to be cut down to size.Mapou
October 23, 2015
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As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.
Oh really? I guess I could say evodelusion isn't scientific because evodelusionists promote the likes of Bill Nye who aren't scientific by any stretch of the imagination, right?
It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. ... It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.
Ya think? Well then: evodelusion is also a movement and that movement is called scientism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the materialistic/naturalistic anti-supernatural premise that God/gods don't exist; that only the material, detectable world is all there is; and that secular science is the way to go. It wants faith in secular science, popular consensus and the hunches of arguably delusional evodelusionists and secularists like themselves to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy realism, true science and the non-delusional view that there exist immaterial entities, and all the "evils" associated with it. As such, they resurrect refuted hunches like spontaneous generation (renamed abiogenesis) propping it up as scientific with carefully crafted pseudoscientific terms, smokescreens and just-so-stories, carefully modelling their delusional hunches after readily observable phenomena like adaptation, speciation, variation etc., and also find solace in the comfort of their soft couches known as the "scientific consensus" against which no one is expected to argue. Gotta love these kind of arguments.Vy
October 23, 2015
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Chancing to meet your friend on the Rue de Passy in Paris is one type of happenstance that is guided, purposeful, and founded on design. Same is true of all happenstance at its core.ppolish
October 23, 2015
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"Chancing to meet your friend on the Rue de Passy in Paris is one type of happenstance. Having one lineage experiencing a potentiating mutations and a tandem duplications while other lineages did not is evolutionary contingency." I don't see any explanation here. Just more phraseology. Andrewasauber
October 23, 2015
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RM*+NS is usually a shorthand for Neodarwinism,
NS includes RM so RM+NS is unnecessarily redundant.Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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bFast: I have specifically argued that Larry Moran’s position sits well within the framework of RM*+NS. He has said that it doesn’t. RM*+NS is usually a shorthand for Neodarwinism, which is generally an adaptationist position. (Note the plus sign.) Neutral theory came later. There is a spectrum of belief, concerning the relative merits of selection and contingency. It's not black-and-white. asauber: What is the difference between evolutionary happenstance and regular run-of-the-mill plain jane average joe hum-drum kiss your sibilial female biped happenstance Chancing to meet your friend on the Rue de Passy in Paris is one type of happenstance. Having one lineage experiencing a potentiating mutations and a tandem duplications while other lineages did not is evolutionary contingency. See Blount, Genomic analysis of a key innovation in an experimental Escherichia coli population, Nature 2012.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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Because a Darwinist is someone who thinks natural selection is the primary mechanism of evolution.
It is the only proposed mechanism capable of explaining the appearance of design. Drift is not such a mechanism so it can be ignored when discussing the appearance of design.Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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To be blunt, not only do I hold that anyone who believes, without any empirical support mind you, that unguided material processes can produce functional complexity, that far, far, exceeds our best engineering efforts, is not only NOT a scientist, but I also hold that they are not playing with a full deck and should certainly NOT be allowed to spread their delusions to impressionable young students in the classroom. Other than being delusional in regards to the science at hand, I'm fairly sure Myers and Moran are fine people overall.
"To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules. We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology. What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle.” Michael Denton PhD., Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, pg.328 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-impossibility-of-replicating-the-cell-a-problem-for-naturalism/
bornagain
October 23, 2015
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"evolutionary happenstance" Zachies, What is the difference between evolutionary happenstance and regular run-of-the-mill plain jane average joe hum-drum kiss your sibilial female biped happenstance? Andrewasauber
October 23, 2015
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Yet I have specifically argued that Larry Moran's position sits well within the framework of RM*+NS. He has said that it doesn't. You seem to be saying that his position emphasizes the RM over the NS compared to other evolutionists. *RM (read "non-foresighted" not chi-square random.)bFast
October 23, 2015
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Who needs science when you can invoke "happenstance". Happenstance from nothing. Btw, great science from that Christian University down in Texas..., https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ctcf-controls-10000-3d-chromatin-loops/ppolish
October 23, 2015
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bFast: So why has Larry Moran argued with me claiming that he is not a Darwinian? Because a Darwinist is someone who thinks natural selection is the primary mechanism of evolution. Moran holds a pluralist view of evolution. http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/why-im-not-darwinist.html ETA: For example, why do some rhinos have two horns and some only one? An adaptationist would say there must be a selective advantage peculiar to each environment. A pluralist would recognize the possibility that it was due to evolutionary happenstance.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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So why has Larry Moran argued with me claiming that he is not a Darwinian?bFast
October 23, 2015
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