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Larry Moran needs to do some more reading

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I had intended to write a post on whales as products of Intelligent Design. But the whales will have to wait. In the space of just three hours, Professor Larry Moran has put up two remarkably silly posts. And in both cases, Professor Moran could have spared himself the embarrassment if he had done just a little more reading.

The first post, titled, Can theology produce true knowledge?, critiques Dr. Denis Alexander’s claim that there are other, equally valid, ways of knowing besides science. Professor Moran thinks this is flawed on three counts: first, natural theology is question-begging because “you have to assume the existence of a creator god before you would even think of interpreting the natural world as the produce of his creative mind”; second, “faith cannot be falsified as easily as scientific hypotheses and models,” since alleged falsifications can easily be rationalized away by reinterpreting the Bible in a metaphorical sense, and in any case, “much of what’s written in the Bible has been falsified” (especially with regard to human origins); and thirdly, religious experience does not count as a legitimate way of knowing, owing to the human capacity for self-delusion: you have to “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded,” and the only way to do that is to “provide evidence that your god is real and that’s the scientific way of knowing.” Professor Moran concludes that Dr. Alexander has failed to make a case for “the ability of theology to produce true knowledge.” After this devastating triple refutation, Moran gleefully chortles:

Strike three.

You’re out, Dr. Alexander. This is a baseball analogy… You have lost your wicket. You are dismissed.

Perhaps someone should tell Professor Moran that there are no wickets in the game of baseball, and that the image which he has attached to the end of his post is not one of a batter being struck out in the game of baseball, but of a batsman being bowled out in the game of cricket.

This is what a strikeout looks like, Professor Moran:

(In the photo above, taken in 2006, Cincinnati Reds outfielder Adam Dunn strikes out swinging to Atlanta Braves pitcher John Smoltz. Braves’ catcher Brian McCann catches the pitch behind the plate. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.)

Why Professor Moran’s three strikes fail miserably

Let’s return to Professor Moran’s “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander. What about Moran’s first strike: his claim that natural theology is question-begging, because it begins with the assumption that God exists? That would be news to St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), the foremost theologian of the Catholic Church, who begins his article, Whether God exists? (Summa Theologica I, q.2, art.3) by marshaling two arguments against God’s existence – the argument from evil and Occam’s razor – before proceeding to argue that “the existence of God can be proved in five ways.” Don’t believe me? Go on, have a look:

Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word “God” means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God’s existence.

You can’t get a fairer statement of the case for atheism than that.

Now, I’m sure Professor Moran will respond that he doesn’t find Aquinas’ Five Ways convincing – although he really should peruse Ed Feser’s short and highly readable book, Aquinas: A Beginner’s Guide (Oneworld Publications, paperback, 2009) before venturing an opinion on the subject. Be that as it may, Moran is manifestly wrong in asserting that natural theology assumes the existence of God. It doesn’t: Aquinas’ Five Ways, for instance, merely assume the existence of change, causation, contingent states of affairs, grades of perfection, and things that tend to produce certain characteristic effects. (And in case Moran is interested, there are cogent contemporary arguments for God’s existence – see here, here and here.)

I think any fair-minded umpire would rule against Moran’s strike one, calling it a foul instead.

What of Moran’s second strike: that faith isn’t falsifiable in the same way as science is, because statements in the Bible which are contradicted by scientific discoveries can always be reinterpreted metaphorically? Wrong on two counts. First, Moran is assuming that Christianity is tied to the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. It isn’t. You could believe in all of the doctrines of the Apostles’ Creed – and the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds as well, which are much more explicit about the Trinity – without believing in the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. That was C.S. Lewis’s position, for instance.

What, then, is Christianity tied to? The most logical way to define Christianity is to look at the credal statements drawn up by the early Christians themselves – notably, the Apostles’ Creed, which, in its Old Roman form, is probably the oldest known statement of the Christian faith, dating back to before 200 A.D.. What the creed affirms is the following: that God created the universe (“heaven and earth”); that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, named Mary; that He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, rose again on the third day, and ascended to be with His Heavenly Father; that He will return to judge the living and the dead; that in addition to the Father and the Son, there is a Holy Spirit; that there is a communion of saints in Heaven as well as a holy catholic church on earth; that sins can be forgiven; and that there will one day be a resurrection of the dead to everlasting life. Some of these statements are obviously falsifiable: if it turned out, for instance, that the universe had no beginning (and hence no Creator), or that the doctrine of the Virgin birth was a second-century addition to the Christian faith; or that no individual named Jesus of Nazareth, professing to be a king, was ever crucified under Pontius Pilate; or that such an individual was crucified, but his body was dug up next week by archaeologists in Palestine, then it would be curtains for Christianity. The early Christian Fathers thought likewise, which is why they went to such lengths to refute attacks on their faith by skeptics. And herein lies Moran’s second error: when he suggests that Christianity is immune to falsification because its teachings can always be reinterpreted metaphorically, he never asks himself the vital question: reinterpreted by whom? The Bible itself never asks us to believe in God, even if He didn’t create the universe; nor does it ask us to believe in Jesus Christ, even if He didn’t rise from the grave. The notion that religious faith ought to be unfalsifiable is a theological novelty, which seems to have arisen in Christian circles a mere 220 years ago, in the writings of Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), who was heavily influenced by the philosopher Spinoza’s naturalistic critique of miracles. However, Schleiermacher’s position is a minority view among Christians to this day, and to his credit, Dr. Denis Alexander (the molecular biologist who is the object of Moran’s scorn) roundly rejects such a compromise view: for him, the discovery of Jesus’ bones in Palestine would falsify Christianity.

The Arnolfini Portrait, by Jan van Eyck (c. 1390-1441). Date: 1434. National Gallery, London. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

So much for Professor Moran’s first two strikes. What of his third strike: his claim that you can’t know anything from religious experience unless you can “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded”? What Moran’s argument implicitly assumes is that you can’t know something is true unless you can prove it to an unbiased outsider. But knowing and proving are very different things, and in the course of everyday life, there are many things that we can properly claim to know, even though we cannot prove them. We do not (and should not) need a scientist to tell us that someone whom we know very well is trustworthy, or that someone in our family loves us. These judgments that we make about particular individuals are intuitive rather than scientific: often we may be quite certain of them, even though we are unable to articulate the grounds for our certainty. Professor Moran might respond that our intuitive judgments about others are nevertheless empirically testable: for instance, the behavior of your spouse over the course of time can lend strong evidential support to the hypothesis that s/he loves you. But even if statements like “My spouse loves me” are testable, we typically come to believe in their truth long before we have subjected them to systematic testing. And we are right to do so.

Professor Moran could argue that at least an unbiased outsider can be satisfied by the evidence that my spouse exists: he can see her and talk to her, for instance. However, the situation is quite different when it comes to God: many people (including people who would like to believe in God) have never had an experience of Him, and therefore doubt or deny His existence. But what this argument illicitly assumes is that religious experience is uniformly accessible to everyone. Perhaps it isn’t; maybe it requires a certain aptitude on the part of the recipient. Just as some otherwise normal people are quite tone-deaf, it may be the case that some people are (through no particular fault of their own) deaf to the “still, small voice of God.” I can quite sympathize; in my entire life, I’ve had only a couple of experiences that I might describe as a sense of the presence of God, and I certainly haven’t heard any voices or seen any visions. But if other people are convinced that they have, then who am I to say that they have no right to be sure they’ve seen God until I can see what they claim to have seen? That would be extremely presumptuous of me. It could be that I’m just religiously tone-deaf – or very hard of hearing. Should I be wary of visionaries’ claims? Certainly – especially when different people claim to see different things. But that has no bearing on the question of whether these people’s experiences count as a valid source of knowledge – at least for them.

What’s wrong with Moran’s claim that science is the only way of knowing?

In his post, Can theology produce true knowledge?, Professor Moran concludes that “for the time being, science is the only proven way to arrive at true knowledge.” If he had taken the trouble to read Associate Professor Edward Feser’s short article in Public Discourse, Blinded by Scientism (March 9, 2010), he would have seen why this statement is simply ridiculous. Here’s how Feser (an ex-atheist) demolishes the view that all real knowledge is scientific knowledge (scientism):

Despite its adherents’ pose of rationality, scientism has a serious problem: it is either self-refuting or trivial. Take the first horn of this dilemma. The claim that scientism is true is not itself a scientific claim, not something that can be established using scientific methods. Indeed, that science is even a rational form of inquiry (let alone the only rational form of inquiry) is not something that can be established scientifically. For scientific inquiry itself rests on a number of philosophical assumptions: that there is an objective world external to the minds of scientists; that this world is governed by causal regularities; that the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities; and so forth. Since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle. And if it cannot even establish that it is a reliable form of inquiry, it can hardly establish that it is the only reliable form. Both tasks would require “getting outside” science altogether and discovering from that extra-scientific vantage point that science conveys an accurate picture of reality—and in the case of scientism, that only science does so.

The rational investigation of the philosophical presuppositions of science has, naturally, traditionally been regarded as the province of philosophy. Nor is it these presuppositions alone that philosophy examines. There is also the question of how to interpret what science tells us about the world. For example, is the world fundamentally comprised of substances or events? What is it to be a “cause”? Is there only one kind? (Aristotle held that there are at least four.) What is the nature of the universals referred to in scientific laws — concepts like quark, electron, atom, and so on — and indeed in language in general? Do they exist over and above the particular things that instantiate them? Scientific findings can shed light on such metaphysical questions, but can never fully answer them. Yet if science must depend upon philosophy both to justify its presuppositions and to interpret its results, the falsity of scientism seems doubly assured. As the conservative philosopher John Kekes (himself a confirmed secularist like Derbyshire and MacDonald) concludes: “Hence philosophy, and not science, is a stronger candidate for being the very paradigm of rationality.”

Here we come to the second horn of the dilemma facing scientism. Its advocate may now insist: if philosophy has this status, it must really be a part of science, since (he continues to maintain, digging in his heels) all rational inquiry is scientific inquiry. The trouble now is that scientism becomes completely trivial, arbitrarily redefining “science” so that it includes anything that could be put forward as evidence against it. Worse, it makes scientism consistent with views that are supposed to be incompatible with it. For example, a line of thought deriving from Aristotle and developed with great sophistication by Thomas Aquinas holds that when we work out what it is for one thing to be the cause of another, we are inexorably led to the existence of an Uncaused Cause outside time and space which continually sustains the causal regularities studied by science, and apart from which they could not in principle exist even for a moment.

If “scientism” is defined so broadly that it includes (at least in principle) philosophical theology of this kind, then the view becomes completely vacuous. For the whole point of scientism — or so it would seem given the rhetoric of its loudest adherents — was supposed to be to provide a weapon by which fields of inquiry like theology might be dismissed as inherently unscientific and irrational.

(The bolding in the above passage is mine – VJT.)

Of course, it might turn out that biochemist Larry Moran has a crushing rejoinder to Edward Feser, who is a professional philosopher. And for that matter, pigs might fly. But I certainly wouldn’t bet on either proposition.

Why Moran’s critique of the fine-tuning argument fails

Professor Moran’s second silly post of February 8 is titled, Intelligent Design Creationism and the fine-tuning argument. Moran thinks that biochemist Michael Denton (who is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture) is “not a trustworthy source of information” when it comes to the fine-tuning argument. So who does he turn to instead? The late physicist Victor Stenger, author of God the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist. Moran writes:

I have to trust an authority on this one. I choose to trust physicist Igor (sic) Stenger who has actually done an experiment to test the hypothesis of fine tuning.

I conclude that fine tuning is not a valid argument for the existence of gods.

Evidently Professor Moran has not read (or heard of) the devastating refutation of Victor Stenger’s “take-down” of the fine-tuning argument by cosmologist Dr. Luke Barnes, in a 2011 ARXIV paper titled, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life. For the benefit of readers who dislike mathematics, I’ve written a non-technical overview of Dr. Barnes’ paper, titled, Is fine-tuning a fallacy? (January 5, 2012). In his paper, Dr. Barnes takes care to avoid drawing any metaphysical conclusions from the fact of fine-tuning. He has no religious axe to grind. His main concern is simply to establish that the fine-tuning of the universe is real, contrary to the claims of Professor Stenger, who asserts that all of the alleged examples of fine-tuning in our universe can be explained without the need for a multiverse.

Not only has Professor Moran not heard of Dr. Luke Barnes, but he hasn’t even picked the best critique of the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, which was made by physicist Dr. Sean Carroll in a debate with Dr. William Lane Craig. I’ve responded to Dr. Carroll in a post titled, Debunking the debunker: How Sean Carroll gets the fine-tuning argument wrong.

I might add that Professor Stenger’s denial of the very existence of fine-tuning puts him at odds with most experts in the field. Here is a list of prominent scientists (compiled by Dr. Barnes) who acknowledge the reality of fine-tuning:

Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Hawkins,
Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison,
Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose,
Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin,
Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin,
Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek

Commenting on these scientists’ religious perspectives, Dr. Barnes remarks: “The list is a roughly equal mix of theist, non-theist and unknown.”

Now, if Professor Moran thinks that Victor Stenger is a more trustworthy source than these eminent scientists, then he is entitled to his opinion; however, he cannot credibly claim to be listening to what the experts have to say.

Dr. Barnes’ conclusions at the end of his paper, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life, are well worth quoting:

We conclude that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of life. Of all the ways that the laws of nature, constants of physics and initial conditions of the universe could have been, only a very small subset permits the existence of intelligent life. (p. 62)

It is not true that fine-tuning must eventually yield to the relentless march of science. Fine-tuning is not a typical scientific problem, that is, a phenomenon in our universe that cannot be explained by our current understanding of physical laws. It is not a gap. Rather, we are concerned with the physical laws themselves. In particular, the anthropic coincidences are not like, say, the coincidence between inertial mass and gravitational mass in Newtonian gravity, which is a coincidence between two seemingly independent physical quantities. Anthropic coincidences, on the other hand, involve a happy consonance between a physical quantity and the requirements of complex, embodied intelligent life. The anthropic coincidences are so arresting because we are accustomed to thinking of physical laws and initial conditions as being unconcerned with how things turn out. Physical laws are material and efficient causes, not final causes. There is, then, no reason to think that future progress in physics will render a life-permitting universe inevitable. When physics is finished, when the equation is written on the blackboard and fundamental physics has gone as deep as it can go, fine-tuning may remain, basic and irreducible. (p. 63)

Perhaps the most optimistic scenario is that we will eventually discover a simple, beautiful physical principle from which we can derive a unique physical theory, whose unique solution describes the universe as we know it, including the standard model, quantum gravity, and (dare we hope) the initial conditions of cosmology. While this has been the dream of physicists for centuries, there is not the slightest bit of evidence that this idea is true. It is almost certainly not true of our best hope for a theory of quantum gravity, string theory, which has “anthropic principle written all over it” (Schellekens, 2008). The beauty of its principles has not saved us from the complexity and contingency of the solutions to its equations. Beauty and simplicity are not necessity. (p.63)

At the end of his post, Professor Moran asks:

Can Intelligent Design Creationists refute the views of Stenger and other physicists or have they just convinced themselves that what they say to each other is true?

I hope that Professor Moran will have the grace to own that his critique of the fine-tuning argument was uninformed, and that Intelligent Design proponents have done their homework on this argument.

Professor Moran’s scientism lies tattered in shreds; his critique of the fine-tuning argument has been thoroughly eviscerated; and his “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander turned out to be fouls. Would a retraction be out of the question, Professor?

Comments
vjtorley @ 86, Nicely stated. However, I noticed that your link to No, Virginia, Science Hasn’t Debunked Adam is broken. A couple of comments . . . Flood stories seem to occur worldwide, even in non-coastal areas. Here's a nice compilation: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html The Wiseman Hypothesis proposes that the toledoths used in Genesis have the same usage as in the cuneiform tablets found in Babylonia. If true, this indicates multiple patriarchal authors on clay tablets who signed their names [i]after[/i] each section (Nature, Adam, Noah, etc.). Additional support come from "catch phrases" in the text between successive tablets. Also, tablets had a typical size range, and the text for each section would fit on them. Beginning with the story of Joseph, the pattern ends, perhaps because the narrative continued on papyrus. -QQuerius
February 15, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, Re Eugene Koonin, you write:
If Koonin or anybody else wants to impress me (or anybody else who’s been following ID for a few years), let him first describe what first life looked like (in detail!) and then let him describe every other step in subsequent life until it gets up to the point he’s calculating probabilities for (an accurately reproducing organism with decoding routines built in or whatever it was exactly he specified). THEN, after he’s given us that amount of detail, he will be in a position to make probability estimates that are accurate enough to be worth examining seriously.
You're asking me to believe in abiogenesis simply because it hasn't been mathematically proved to be impossible, in a rigorous fashion. You've got to be kidding me. Do you know of any other scientific theory that gets accorded this kind of special treatment? You'd need a computer simulation bigger than our universe in order to go through all possible pathways that its constituent particles might have gone through, and show that none of them leads to life as we know it today (which incorporates replication-translation systems). By your criteria, abiogenesis is unfalsifiable. If a back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that the molecules required for the evolution of a replication-translation system are far beyond the reach of chance, by many orders of magnitude, then that's a strong prima facie reason for at least provisionally accepting that modern-day life-forms were intelligently designed. Could this conclusion be wrong? Sure. But it's rational to follow the evidence wherever it leads. Finally, you ask why God doesn't reveal Himself through scientific experiments that show prayer works. Short answer: even if He did, a skeptic might still argue that the miracle was not the work of God, but some alien prankster. With fine-tuning, on the other hand, that could only be the work of some Intelligence outside our universe. And if the multiverse (assuming it existed) had to be fine-tuned too, as Dr. Robin Collins has argued in his online essay, "The Teleological Argument," then the Intelligence in question also has to be outside space-time and beyond the laws of physics - in other words, transcendent.vjtorley
February 15, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, In your discussion of physicist Paul Davies' killer argument against the multiverse, you omit a key premise of Davies' argument: since simulated universes are much cheaper to make than the real thing, the number of fake universes would proliferate and vastly outnumber the real ones. What follows from that? Since we have no way of telling if the universe we're living in is a real one or a fake and since the fakes far outnumber the real ones, it would be rational to conclude that the one we're living in is a fake, and that the laws of our universe are also fake - which in turn undermines the whole argument that fundamental physics generates multiple universes, causing the reasoning to collapse in circularity. I also listed five other arguments against the multiverse in the post I referenced (see also here for more details on these arguments):
The multiverse hypothesis faces five formidable problems: first, it merely shifts the fine-tuning problem up one level, as a multiverse capable of generating even one life-supporting universe would still need to be fine-tuned; second, the multiverse hypothesis itself implies that a sizable proportion of universes (including perhaps our own) were intelligently designed; third, the multiverse hypothesis predicts that most of the intelligent life-forms that exist should be “Boltzmann brains” that momentarily fluctuate into and out of existence; fourth, the multiverse hypothesis predicts that a universe containing intelligent life should be much smaller than the one we live in; and fifth, the multiverse hypothesis cannot account for the fact that the laws of physics are not only life-permitting, but also mathematically elegant – a fact acknowledged even by physicists with no religious beliefs.
Re the "Boltzmann brains" argument, you attempt to refute it with the following argument: "a brain is staggeringly complex and consequently enormously less likely than a Big Bang. Hence, you will see uncountably more Big Bangs than Boltzmann Brains." But that's irrelevant to the argument. As cosmologist Luke Barnes points out, the real problem is that "for every observer who really is a carbon-based life form who evolved on a planet orbiting a star in a galaxy, there are vastly more for whom this is all a passing dream, the few, fleeting fancies of a phantom fluctuation." Hence we would expect biological life-forms like ourselves to be vastly outnumbered by “Boltzmann brains.” However, since Boltzmann brains do not require a fine-tuned universe, the multiverse fails to explain why our universe is fine-tuned for biological life. Finally, even if the "Boltzmann brains" argument could be refuted, there are still four additional arguments against the universe that you haven't refuted.vjtorley
February 15, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, I'd like to briefly comment on your use of the Geneva Convention to assess God's moral character. The Geneva Convention is a set of treaties that apply only in times of armed conflict, and that seek to protect people who are not (or are no longer) taking part in hostilities. Treaties, by definition, cover only those parties that sign them. They are for regulating the conduct of people, vis-a-vis other people. God doesn't fall into that category. His relationship to us is more like that of an author to the characters in his book, or a video game creator to the characters in his game - the key difference being that in God's game (unlike our own games), the characters possess libertarian free will, including the power to defy their Maker. To say that an author of a story is bound by the same moral conventions that bind the characters in that story, in their dealings with one another, is comically absurd. Killing the first-born of the Egyptians may not sound very nice, but if they were struck down by God, then they probably died instantly and painlessly. And as other readers have pointed out, there is nothing to stop God from recompensing them for the loss of life with the promise of immortality.vjtorley
February 15, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, I'd like to address some of your comments on falsification. You claim that the Bible has been falsified on three specific points: Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood and the Exodus. You should be aware of Lakatos' critique of Popper's naive falsificationism. Briefly, Lakatos argues that "falsification of a high-level scientific theory is never brought about by an isolated observation or set of observations." Rather, such theories are falsified due to "the research programmes associated with them gradually grinding to a halt, with the result that an ever-widening gap opens up between the facts to be explained, and the research programmes themselves" (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, art. Karl Popper). When it comes to falsifying a sacred text, you have to make sure you know what it's saying in the first place (which assumes you know how to read it properly), and you have to be aware of the background assumptions you're making in your falsification. With Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood and the Exodus, we have what look like narratives claiming to be historical. I think it's fair to say that they're not just poetry, and within the Bible itself, the key facts associated with these episodes are treated as historical. Jesus, for instance, referred to Adam and Eve (Mark 10:6-8) Noah and the Flood (Matthew 24:37) and the Exodus (John 3:14, 6:32). It doesn't follow, however, that each and every detail recorded in these narratives is intended to be literal. The stories of Adam and Eve and Noah and the Flood had literary parallels in the ancient Middle East. Perhaps the author of Genesis was drawing upon these stories, which were popularly accepted as "folk history," but putting a theological slant on them - e.g. it wasn't Marduk who formed the heavens and the earth, but YHWH. It's difficult to tell, with books written over 2,500 years ago, exactly what the author was intending to assert. In any case, your attempted falsifications are pretty miserable. You claim that science has falsified Adam and Eve, but that only follows if you make uniformitarian assumptions. As Dr. Lydia McGrew points out in her article, No, Virginia, Science Hasn't Debunked Adam, scientific estimates of ancient human population sizes "assume that nothing was going on in the relevant millions of years but inheritance and mutation" - which is precisely what a Christian who believed in Adam and Eve would deny. Moreover, there are independent reasons for believing that if God were going to create the human race from an original couple, He would endow them with extra genetic diversity, so avoid the harmful effects of inbreeding. Hence, Adam may have been a genetic chimera. That may sound bizarre to you, but it makes perfect sense, within its own framework. Re the Flood: you should be aware that there are different sets of numbers given in the Hebrew and Greek versions of the Old Testament. The Hebrew version suggests a date of 2,348 B.C. or thereabouts, if we assume no gaps in the genealogies; the Septuagint gives a date of around 3,228 B.C., if there are no gaps. Biblical genealogy is not as straightforward as it seems, and even The Catholic Encyclopedia argues that the Flood need not have been geographically universal, although it still argues for an eight-person bottleneck, while noting: "As there is nothing in the teaching of the Bible preventing us from assigning the Flood to a much earlier date than has usually been done, the difficulties urged on the part of science against the anthropological universality of the Flood may be easily evaded." The last time the human race was confined to a small geographic region was over 100,000 years ago. Personally, I'm open to the idea of a more recent global catastrophe (perhaps a sudden rise in sea levels around the end of the Younger Dryas, 11,700 years ago, that may have been triggered by a cometary impact), which killed off a large percentage (say 80%) of people living in coastal areas around the world, and which one family (headed by Noah) received special warning of (although there would have been other scattered survivors). Although 2 Peter 2:5, 3:6 says that the Flood destroyed the ancient world, it doesn't follow from this description that there were no survivors whatsoever, apart from Noah and his family. Regarding the Exodus: your whole argument hinges on the assumption that the Bible says 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt. It doesn't say that; indeed, it implies the contrary. For example, Numbers 3:43 the number of first-born Israelite males of all ages as being only 22,273. The term used for "thousand" in Exodus can simply mean "clan." For archaeological and literary evidence supporting the Exodus, see here and here. In short: your attempts at biblical falsification presuppose a naturalistic worldview and fail to take into account that the author wasn't narrating events like a modern historian. Since he wrote over 2,500 years ago, it's hard for us to determine exactly what his intentions were.vjtorley
February 15, 2016
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Aargh! I've lost two replies to Samsung tablet software. Here's something I wrote locally and saved. I'm going to bed early tonight. In the OP, Feser says science has a serious problem: It is either self refuting or trivial because it assumes: (1) There is an objective external world. (2) That this external world is governed by causal regularities. (3) That the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities (4) And more. Then he says that since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle.  And if it cannot establish that it's a reliable form of inquiry, it can hardly establish that it is the only reliable form. Actually, science takes provisional assumptions like "an external world exists" and tests them by observing them in as many ways as possible and as accurately as possible.  When appropriate, it manipulates this hypothesized external world, taking care to control the manipulations as much as possible, and observes the results.   It compares the results with each other and with the results from other observers and if the results hang together and describe the hypothesized outer world accurately, they conclude that the external world exists and tell everybody else about it so they can use this verified hypothesis in their own work (and also submit it to more tests).  If their results don't match their hypothesis, they change the hypothesis or give it up. Religion doesn't acquire knowledge that way and neither does anything else.MatSpirit
February 14, 2016
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Me Think:
No, Not at all, but if you feel Earth is special, you need to justify (or at least wonder) why the creator would make it inconsequential when compared to the Universe.
Read "The Privileged Planet"- it is all in that book what makes the earth so special.Virgil Cain
February 14, 2016
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MatSpirit
For ID, big numbers are your cry of “Wolf!” “10^40”, “10^57”, “10^60”, “10^120”, “10^123”, “10 ^ 1024!”, “10^(10^123)”, “Numbers so big you could write one down every second for the life of the universe!”, “This is a number so big that if you converted every atom in the universe into paper, there still wouldn’t be enough room to right it down!”, “Big numeric wolves that are gonna eat your evolution alive!” You’ve been shouting, “Big Numbers” for as long as there has been ID and they have NEVER, EVER proven out. GAHHH! Let the wolves have them all.
You are trying to discount a long set of arguments by generalizing them. The fact that the genome is mathematically a sequence is a fact and yes is sequential space is exceeding large. When you say NEVER for an argument you are again generalizing and will likely be wrong.bill cole
February 14, 2016
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MatSpirit @ 78, Ok, a reasonable response and an honest question deserve one in return. The Geneva Convention The Geneva Convention attempts to impose rules onto the obscenity called war. It's widely ignored, but provides a sense of respectability to this human institution. Supposedly, it limits the inhuman behavior between combatants, but its enforcement is generally limited to the victors, giving them the right to charge the vanquished with violations for which they will be respectably tried, found guilty of course, and then hanged. Behavior between humans is restricted. According to the Bible, only the one true God who knows everything, past, present, and future, and who has an IQ of a billion or more, is allowed to take vengeance, to make final judgments, and to allow blessings and curses on people. In fact, God warns us in the scriptures not to attempt to make sense of all events. God says that he makes rain fall both on the just and the unjust for his purposes. Nevertheless, according to a description in Revelation, God created some beings "covered with eyes" (a symbol for enhanced perception) who apparently continually announce their judgment of all God's actions. The founders of the United States depended on God to provide final justice, in that they intended to establish a legal system in which you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. They indicated their willingness to let a hundred perpetrators go free in order to avoid convicting a single innocent person. That this principle has now been violated repeatedly in the U.S. is simply a reflection on the loss of trust in God. The Big Bang There's a lot of discussion within the physics community about the conservation of information, a topic Stephen Hawking engaged in with respect to whether black holes can destroy information. So, if the big bang was as "simple as dirt," where did all the complexity that's challenging some of the best and brightest minds on earth come from? How was it inserted if it wasn't present from the beginning? Experiments in quantum electrodynamics have repeatedly confirmed that the fundamental nature of existence is not matter or energy, but information.
Everything we call real is made up of things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasn’t profoundly shocked you, you haven’t understood it yet. -Niels Bohr
The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena. - Vlatko Vedral, a recognized leader in the field of quantum mechanics
Our conscious interaction within the matrix can collapse wavefunctions (called psi) into matter. Apparently, we exist in a mathematical matrix of information that's quite probably a simulation. The Little Egyptian Boy If we're indeed in a simulation, there's a mind behind it, and if there's a mind, there's a purpose, and if there's a purpose, there's an outcome and judgment. God promised us that he would make sure that justice tempered with mercy (that he provided for us) would prevail, or as is written in the scriptures that God will "dry every tear." -QQuerius
February 14, 2016
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Me_Think, "I mean, who would doubt that a speck is not significant when compared to a volume of 4×10^80 cubic meters of observable universe?" It all depends what the criteria are. Being life-friendly does make it special, in my opinion. It does not matter how it compares in terms of cubic meters. That small a ratio may well be statistically significant.EugeneS
February 14, 2016
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@matspirit Bottleneck assumptions depend on what was present at the beginning. We do not have empirical evidence of the bottlenecks, only assumptions. We now know the mitochondrial clock varies.buffalo
February 14, 2016
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EugeneS @ 70
The Earth is indeed special because it is life friendly. But I dont feel I have to justify anything. I am happy to live in the world I live. I am happy without putting heaven into my head, paraphrasing Chesterton. I know that multiverse is just a mental trick and an absurdity. If this is science, I dont care a bit about such science then.
I too feel happy to be living in the world I am in and I feel I am way more special than anyone else, but when I compare the universe with my world, I am under no illusion that our Planet is special. I mean, who would doubt that a speck is not significant when compared to a volume of 4×10^80 cubic meters of observable universe? As for Multiverse,given a better alternative (an omnipotent omniscient being is definitely a far more complicated alternate hypothesis to explain), I will stop ruminating about multiverse.Me_Think
February 14, 2016
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I'm not arguing that God can't exist if he did those nasty things, I'm pointing that if He DOES exist and what's in the Bible is true, then He's done a lot of thinges that are obviously nasty. So obvious that they've made their way into the Geneva Convention. If you think the Big Bang was complex, please tell us a little about it. What were some complex, high information things about the Big Bang? As for your comments on the little first born Egyptian boy - wow.MatSpirit
February 14, 2016
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Once again, we can see that MatSpirit @72-76 is under the impression that his opinion constitutes irrefutable proof needing no further support. The logic in those trolls is at the same level as, "Now that Dr. Mary Schweitzer has proven that dinosaurs only recently became extinct, it's clearly a fact that dinosaurs didn't die millions of years ago, and that they lived at the same time as humans." We also are treated to the amazing assertion that the big bang was "simpler than dirt." Wow. Amazing! Then, there's the stunning theological argument that God couldn't exist because he supposedly did all these things that *I MYSELF* consider evil, and *I MYSELF* can't imagine any way that this could be fair. And God has to be fair by MY STANDARDS or it just wouldn't be fair, and how could God know what people would do ahead of time, because I don't know, so how could God know. And besides it's not fair. I got news for you. Everybody dies in the end. Then comes the judgment for eternity. I can just imagine a little first-born Egyptian boy being told by God, "I know you died very young, but I know for certain that you would have turned out to be a loving, godly man. Welcome to eternal life, peace, and overflowing joy!" Meanwhile, you're hissing and spitting in a corner about it not being fair. It would be a pity. -QQuerius
February 14, 2016
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Good news about Boltzmann Brains. At last, I can deliver some good news: You can stop worrying about Boltzmann Brains. For onlookers who don't know what a Boltzmann Brain is, Ludwig Boltzmann was one of the greatest physicists of the 19th century. He once speculated that perhaps the reason we find the universe to be in a highly improbable organized, non-equilibrium state is because such states occur randomly and we can only exist to see them when the universe is in such a state. The rest of the time, the universe is too chaotic for "highly tuned" creatures like us to exist, so we never see the chaotic and disorganized universe. Others soon pointed out that a single human brain was much simpler than a whole universe complete with stars, planets and millions of people, each with a human brain. Therefore, a single human brain was much more likely to pop into existence than an entire universe, complete with stars, planets and millions of people, each containing a human brain. That pretty much scotched his theory. However, today we know that this universe did not pop into existence, fully formed with stars, planets and millions of brain bearing humans. Instead, it appeared at the Big Bang and it was simpler than dirt. No stars, no planets, no humans bearing brains, just some energy and, at most, a few laws and everything else came into being through the operation of those laws. Compared to that, a brain is staggeringly complex and consequently enormously less likely than a Big Bang. Hence, you will see uncountably more Big Bangs than Boltzmann Brains. So stop worrying about them screwing up your cosmology.MatSpirit
February 13, 2016
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Re Dr. KoonIn: Sorry about the misspelling, but it was very early in the am. Going solely on what you've quoted from him, well ... Do you remember the story about the boy who cried, "Wolf"? He kept shouting, "Wolf!", and people kept running out to save him, but there never was a wolf. Eventually they pegged his cries as unreliable and not worth investigating and stopped responding to his cries. When a real wolf did finally come along, he shouted, "Wolf!" and nobody came to his aid and he got eaten. For ID, big numbers are your cry of "Wolf!" "10^40", "10^57", "10^60", "10^120", "10^123", "10 ^ 1024!", "10^(10^123)", "Numbers so big you could write one down every second for the life of the universe!", "This is a number so big that if you converted every atom in the universe into paper, there still wouldn't be enough room to right it down!", "Big numeric wolves that are gonna eat your evolution alive!" You've been shouting, "Big Numbers" for as long as there has been ID and they have NEVER, EVER proven out. GAHHH! Let the wolves have them all. If Koonin or anybody else wants to impress me (or anybody else who's been following ID for a few years), let him first describe what first life looked like (in detail!) and then let him describe every other step in subsequent life until it gets up to the point he's calculating probabilities for (an accurately reproducing organism with decoding routines built in or whatever it was exactly he specified). THEN, after he's given us that amount of detail, he will be in a position to make probability estimates that are accurate enough to be worth examining seriously. Until then, he joins Dembski and the long line of number flingers who have made a laughing stock out of ID.MatSpirit
February 13, 2016
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Re Paul Davies "killer argument against the multiverse": Davies proposes a multiverse where some universe develops computers that can run programs that simulate universes, complete with intelligent denizens. No argument here. He further states that these emulated universes could be made to operate with "laws" that differ from the laws in the "real" universe. Again, no argument here. He then springs his "aha!" argument: The people living in those false universes could study their false laws of physics and conclude that a multiverse was possible, but they would be wrong because their laws are fake! Cue the angels singing "Hallelujah". Except ... the real people living in real universes wouldn't know a thing about this. Their universes would not disappear in a puff of logic, their (real) multiverse would continue to spawn (real) universes and the only thing this situation would prove is that some emulated people can be wrong. Maybe real people too. No argument here.MatSpirit
February 13, 2016
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That last message was sent prematurely. Sorry for any typos that slipped through. I do want to mention this before I go on to the multiverse: VJT: "That may sound unfair on future generations, who had nothing to do with Adam’s fateful decision, but to me it seems obvious that you can’t have half the human race running around enjoying supernatural protection from death and suffering while the other half is suffering from raging toothaches and dying off at the age of 30. We’re all one race, and whatever happens to us, we’re all in this together." Are you serious here? I thought you said God wants to be discovered scientifically. If believers really were being supernaturally protected from disease and death while non believers were getting sick and dying, that would be unambiguous and impossible to ignore scientific evidence for the existence of God. Think of people testing the efficacy of prayer, except that these "experiments" are much clearer and the results favor God.MatSpirit
February 13, 2016
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Vjtorley, I gave Genesis and The Fall as an example of something that is utterly vital to the Christian religeon which has been scientifically disproven. You replied with a fantastic story, of your own human devising, in which God might have escaped moral culpability, but only for the living tribe members, not for children too young to vote or who didn't even exist. While Googling "collective punishment" I discovered that it's heinous enough to be banned by the Geneva Convention. Now what DOES that say about God's morals? You didn't answer that. When you have, we can start on The Flood, where God ups his game by murdering every men, woman, child, and unborn foetus in the world (because they were irredemably bad - same excuse Hitler used for murdering the Jews. Sorry for going all Godwin, but we are talking about genocide in both cases.) And if you surmount that hill, the next book in the Bible brings us The Exodus where God kills one child in every family in Egypt, including the families of all the peasants, people who had absolutely no way of change Pharoah's mind and make him release the Israelis. But it turns out that Pharoah doesn't control his own mind, either. Twice, he decides to let the Israeli's go, but God hardens his mind both times so he keeps them. Why does God do this? To show off! Now all three of these stories have been scientifically disproven. Genesis is dated much too early and the human race never went through a two person bottleneck. Or an eight person bottleneck during Noah's Flood, which supposedly happened while the Egyptians were building the pyramids. (You'd think they'd notice they were all drowned.) Archeology shows no trace of a million plus strangers invading Israel, just some locals coming down from the hills. We can find the remains of Bedouin campfires in the desert, but no sign of a million plus invaders living there for 40 years. In short, here you have three stories in the Bible, one of them utterly foundational for Christianity, all disproven scientifically. So much for theology producing true knowledge. Larry Moran is right! I see that KairosFocus has started a thread on whether Dan Barker is right about God being the most unpleasant character in all fiction. I haven't had a chance to read Barker's book or KF's post yet, but I vote "Yes!" on both unpleasant and fiction.MatSpirit
February 13, 2016
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According to what I have: The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, whereby the behavior of matter powers a coexisting trinity of systematically self-similar (in each other's image, likeness) intelligent systems at the molecular, cellular and multicellular level It might not be putting heaven into your mind but finally being eyeball to eyeball with cells is a very exciting systematically self-similar discovery, to experience.GaryGaulin
February 13, 2016
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Hi MeThink, The Earth is indeed special because it is life friendly. But I dont feel I have to justify anything. I am happy to live in the world I live. I am happy without putting heaven into my head, paraphrasing Chesterton. I know that multiverse is just a mental trick and an absurdity. If this is science, I dont care a bit about such science then.EugeneS
February 13, 2016
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nice link :)Mung
February 13, 2016
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That other great luminary of atheist apologetics, Neil De Grasse Tyson, has also been excelling himself, it seems : https://churchpop.com/2014/12/29/3-ways-neil-degrasse-tysons-christmas-trolling-ironically-backfired/Axel
February 13, 2016
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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause. More here: Bacterial Slime Acts As Teensy Eyeball http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/bacterial-slime-acts-as-teensy-eyeballGaryGaulin
February 13, 2016
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Imagine in a multiverse there is one with a God, Adam and Eve, the garden as well as fake ones, one with no laws and one where matspirit is a believer. Seems very irrational and why bother to study it.buffalo
February 13, 2016
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EugeneS @ 59
Do you think there must be a pragmatic purpose in creating a world? How are you measuring the pragmatic gain of creating a smaller universe? Is it a gain in terms of saved resources? What kind of resources? Energy? What if the source of the universe is not a material one?
No, Not at all, but if you feel Earth is special, you need to justify (or atleast wonder) why the creator would make it inconsequential when compared to the Universe.Me_Think
February 13, 2016
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MatSpirit @ 54, The "squeezed into a little ball" is silly. The little ball IS THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE before inflation. There's no "outside" for the little ball to squeeze through. The only distance available is within the ball, including Planck distance. In other words, if you were there to observe it, you would have been inside the ball. -QQuerius
February 12, 2016
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I should have used the word "cause" not "source" in relation to the universe in my comment 59. Apologies.EugeneS
February 12, 2016
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MatSpirit @46 and 51, I thought you wanted to critique my arguments for the existence of God. Instead I find you engaging in a polemic against the behavior of YHWH in Genesis. That's a separate question entirely. One can believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent Creator without identifying that Creator with the God of the Bible. To answer your silliest questions first: under the tribal scenario that I was envisaging, all human beings then living would have assented to Adam's decision. Of course, if there really was an original couple then that makes things a lot simpler. The exact nature of Adam's sin has been debated for centuries, but on one sensible interpretation, the sin wasn't simply learning the difference between good and evil; rather, Adam wanted to create his own moral standards and define good and evil on his own terms. In so doing, he deliberately eschewed the Divine protection that had preserved the human race from suffering and pain and made a declaration of human independence, telling God to nick off. Bad move. God reluctantly took him at his word and withdrew His special protection, leaving the entire human race vulnerable to starvation, predation and disease. That may sound unfair on future generations, who had nothing to do with Adam's fateful decision, but to me it seems obvious that you can't have half the human race running around enjoying supernatural protection from death and suffering while the other half is suffering from raging toothaches and dying off at the age of 30. We're all one race, and whatever happens to us, we're all in this together. Anyway, enough about Adam. Even if the doctrine of the Fall doesn't sound fair to you, that in no way rules out God. You write that the multiverse will take care of the fine tuning problem. You are mistaken. Please see my post, Physicist Paul Davies’ killer argument against the multiverse (August 14, 2015). You write that "some kind of life would be possible" if all the constants of our universe were changed, and not just a few, and you cite Victor Stenger. I've already cited Dr. Barnes' paper in my OP, showing why Stenger's denial of fine-tuning is ill-informed nonsense. In any case, Stenger's argument overlooks the "fly-on-the-wall argument," which I wrote about in my post, Debunking the debunker: How Sean Carroll gets the fine-tuning argument wrong (January 4, 2016):
The argument does not focus on the (unimaginably large) totality of all possible universes; instead, it is concerned only with those in our immediate neighborhood, which differ only slightly from our own: perhaps one or two parameters are altered, while the other parameters continue to be held at the values which obtain in this universe. The point is that if we confine ourselves to the possible universes within our neighborhood, it turns out that the number of changes in physical parameters which are fatal to life vastly outnumbers the changes that can be made which are compatible with life.
The fact that nearly all universes within our immediate neighborhood are hostile to life is a fact that requires an explanation, just as we would demand an explanation if a tiny group of flies surrounded by a largish fly-free wall area were hit by a bullet. We'd be inclined to say they were hit deliberately, and we'd be right. Ditto for our universe. You assert that Dr. Eugene Koonin (whose name you cannot even spell) doesn't know diddly squat about the origin of life and you rashly assert that he commits Hoyle's fallacy. Look, the guy is director of the Evolutionary Genomics Group at the National Center for Biotechnology Information in Bethesda, Maryland. He's written a highly acclaimed book titled, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution. Oh, and his 2007 paper,The cosmological model of eternal inflation and the transition from chance to biological evolution in the history of life, only had four peer reviewers, including a guy from Harvard. Don't you think it's a little strange that not one of them picked up on his paper containing Hoyle's fallacy, while you, a non-scientist (I can tell from the way you write) managed to spot this defect in his logic instantly? Pull the other one. Nowhere in his paper does Koonin say the first replcation translation system had to have evolved all at once from scratch. Rather the opposite. His point was that even if you wait billions of years, it isn't going to happen, because you'd need orders of magnitude more time than that. Finally, I am glad to see that you concede that the universe, which sprang into existence around 14 billion years ago, had a cause. You ask what it might have been. Please have a look at Dr. Robert Koons' handy summary of the cosmological argument and scroll down to the section titled, "Closure," where he argues that God must be unique, free from measurable attributes and beyond space and time.vjtorley
February 12, 2016
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MatSpirit
If the hydrogen bonds aren’t right for DNA, you won’t have DNA. If they’re not even good enough for simple life, that universe will be lifeless. If there are lots and lots more universes, the ones that get the hydrogen bond right will have life.
Infinite multiverse is an interesting explanation and I think it is the only way to invoke chance. The problem is it also eliminates science as Andre said. I am sorry you did get free access to the Yockey paper as when studied you will understand the challenges of an explosion event yielding observers that can talk about it by a trial error and selection process.bill cole
February 12, 2016
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