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“Liar, liar, pants on fire”? Ten Tough Questions for Professor Dawkins.

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For several years now, Professor Richard Dawkins, the renowned evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, has refused to debate the topic of God’s existence with the philosopher and Christian apologist, Professor William Lane Craig. That is Professor Dawkins’ privilege; he is under no obligation to debate with anyone. Until recently, Dawkins’ favorite reason for refusing to face off against Professor William Lane Craig was that Craig was nothing more than a professional debater. But now, in an article in The Guardian (20 October 2011) entitled, Why I refuse to debate with William Lane Craig, Richard Dawkins leads off by firing this salvo: “This Christian ‘philosopher’ is an apologist for genocide. I would rather leave an empty chair than share a platform with him.”

In the same article, Professor Dawkins savagely castigates William Lane Craig for his willingness to justify “genocides ordered by the God of the Old Testament”. According to Dawkins, “Most churchmen these days wisely disown the horrific genocides ordered by the God of the Old Testament” – unlike Craig, who argues that “the Canaanites were debauched and sinful and therefore deserved to be slaughtered.” Dawkins then quotes William Lane Craig as justifying the slaughter on the grounds that: (i) if these children had been allowed to live, they would have turned the Israelites towards serving the evil Canaanite gods; and (ii) the children who were slaughtered would have gone to Heaven instantly when they died, so God did them no wrong in taking their lives. Dawkins triumphantly concludes:

Would you shake hands with a man who could write stuff like that? Would you share a platform with him? I wouldn’t, and I won’t. Even if I were not engaged to be in London on the day in question, I would be proud to leave that chair in Oxford eloquently empty.

Professor Dawkins, allow me to briefly introduce myself. My name is Vincent Torley (my Web page is here), and I have a Ph.D. in philosophy. I’m an Intelligent Design proponent who also believes that modern life-forms are descended from a common ancestor that lived around four billion years ago. I’m an occasional contributor to the Intelligent Design Website, Uncommon Descent. Apart from that, I’m nobody of any consequence.

Professor Dawkins, I have ten charges to make against you, and they relate to apparent cases of lying, hypocrisy and moral inconsistency on your part. Brace yourself. I’ve listed the charges for the benefits of people reading this post.

My Ten Charges against Professor Richard Dawkins

1. Professor Dawkins has apparently lied to his own readers at the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science. In a recent post (dated 1 May 2011) he stated that he “didn’t know quite how evil [William Lane Craig’s] theology is” until atheist blogger Greta Christina alerted him to Craig’s views in an article she wrote on 25 April 2011, when in fact, Dawkins had already read Professor Craig’s “staggeringly awful” essay on the slaughter of the Canaanites and blogged about it in his personal forum (http://forum.richarddawkins.net), three years earlier, on 21 April 2008. In other words, Professor Dawkins’ alleged shock at recently discovering Craig’s “evil” views turns out to have been feigned: he knew about these views some years ago.

2. Professor Dawkins has recently maligned Professor William Lane Craig as a “fundamentalist nutbag” who isn’t even a real philosopher and whose only claim to fame is that he is a professional debater, but his own statements about Craig back in 2008 completely contradict these assertions. Moreover, Dawkins’ characterization of Craig as a “fundamentalist nutbag” is particularly unjust, given that Professor Craig has admitted that he’s quite willing to change his mind on the slaughter of the Canaanites, if proven wrong. Although Professor Craig upholds Biblical inerrancy, he does so provisionally: he says it’s possible that the Bible might be sometimes wrong on moral matters, and furthermore, he acknowledges that the Canaanite conquest might not have even happened, as an historical event. That certainly doesn’t sound like the writings of a “nutbag” to me.

3. Professor Dawkins says that he refuses to share a platform with William Lane Craig, because of his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites, but he has already debated someone who holds substantially the same views as Craig on the slaughter of the Canaanites. On 23 October 1996, Dawkins debated Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, who also believes that the slaughter of the Canaanites was morally justified under the circumstances at the time (see here and here). What’s more, in 2006, Dawkins appeared in a television panel with Professor Richard Swinburne, who holds the same view. Dawkins might reply that Swinburne did not make his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites public until 2011, but as I shall argue below, he can hardly make the same excuse about not knowing Rabbi Boteach’s views. If he did not know, then he was extraordinarily naive.

4. Professor Dawkins refuses on principle to share a platform with William Lane Craig because of his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites, yet he is perfectly willing to share a platform with atheists whose moral opinions are far more horrendous: Dan Barker, who says that child rape could be moral if it were absolutely necessary in order to save humanity; Dr. Sam Harris, who says that pushing an innocent man into the path of an oncoming train is OK, if it is necessary in order to save a greater number of human lives; and Professor Peter Singer, who believes that sex with animals is not intrinsically wrong, if both parties consent.

5. Professor Dawkins refuses to share a platform with William Lane Craig, who holds that God commanded the Israelites to slaughter Canaanite babies whom He subsequently recompensed with eternal life in the hereafter. However, he is quite happy to share a platform with Professor P. Z. Myers, who doesn’t even regard newborn babies as people with a right to life. (See here for P.Z. Myers’ original post, here for one reader’s comment and here for P. Z. Myers’ reply, in which he makes his own views plain.) Nor does Professor Peter Singer, whom Dawkins interviewed back in 2009, regard newborn babies as people with a right to life. (See this article.)

6. Apparently Professor Dawkins himself does not believe that a newborn human baby is a person with the same right to life that you or I have, and does not believe that the killing of a healthy newborn baby is just as wrong as the act of killing you or me. For he sees nothing intrinsically wrong with the killing of a one- or two-year-old baby suffering from a horrible incurable disease, that meant it was going to die in agony in later life (see this video at 24:12). He also claims in The God Delusion (Boston & New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2006, p. 293) that the immorality of killing an individual is tied to the degree of suffering it is capable of. By that logic, it must follow that killing a healthy newborn baby, whose nervous system is still not completely developed, is not as bad as killing an adult.

7. In his article in The Guardian (20 October 2011) condemning William Lane Craig, Professor Dawkins fails to explain exactly why it would be wrong under all circumstances for God (if He existed) to take the life of an innocent human baby, if that baby was compensated with eternal life in the hereafter. In fact, as I will demonstrate below, if we look at the most common arguments against killing the innocent, then it is impossible to construct a knock-down case establishing that this act of God would be wrong under all possible circumstances. Strange as it may seem, there are always some possible circumstances we can envisage, in which it might be right for God to act in this way.

8. Professor Dawkins declines to say whether he agrees with some of his fans and followers, who consider the God of the Old Testament to be morally equivalent to Hitler (see here and here for examples). However, the very comparison is odious, for in the same Old Testament books which Dawkins condemns, God exhorts the Israelites: “Do not seek revenge”; “Love your neighbor as yourself” and: “The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 19:18, 33-34, NIV.) That certainly doesn’t sound like Hitler to me – and I’ve personally visited Auschwitz and Birkenau. I wonder if Professor Dawkins has.

9. Dawkins singles out Professor William Lane Craig for condemnation as a “fundamentalist nutbag”, but he fails to realize that Professor William Lane Craig’s views on the slaughter of the Canaanites were shared by St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, the Bible commentator Matthew Henry, and John Wesley, as well as some modern Christian philosophers of eminent standing, such as Richard Swinburne, whom he appeared on a television panel with in 2006. Is he prepared to call all these people “nutbags” too? That’s a lot of crazy people, I must say.

10. Unlike the late Stephen Jay Gould (who maintained that the experiment would be just about the most unethical thing he could imagine), Professor Dawkins believes that the creation of a hybrid between humans and chimps “might be a very moral thing to do”, so long as it was not exploited or treated like a circus freak (see this video at 40:33), although he later concedes that if only one were created, it might get lonely (perhaps a group of hybrids would be OK, then?) Dawkins has destroyed his own moral credibility by making such a ridiculous statement. How can he possibly expect us to take him seriously when he talks about ethics, from now on?

Professor Dawkins, I understand that you are a very busy man. Nevertheless, I should warn you that a failure to answer these charges will expose you to charges of apparent lying, character assassination, public hypocrisy, as well as an ethical double-standard on your part. The choice is yours.

Read the rest of the article here.

Comments
Elizabeth, Do you believe that a good God would judge the unjust? How about Hitler? Would it stand to reason that Hitler's crimes are judged in a certain way as to prevent Hitler from ever again being able to carry them out? What sort of judgment might that be? As far as "genocide," are you certain that's the correct label for the Canaanite slaughter, given the lack of fine detail in the narrative? Are you certain that the lack of fine detail demonstrates that it is genocide from a 21st Century perspective, and not what the scriptures say it is; the judgment of God, and the protection of His chosen people, such that his plan of salvation for all of us is not hindered by His chosen people following in the same sinful path as the Canaanites? Is that really genocide? Really? Consider this: The scriptures are a narrative of the relationship between God and His people. In that narrative there are many instances of judgment for sin. We have evidence for sin and evil in the present. I don't think there is one among us who wouldn't say that certain evil needs to be judged harshly. Since we live some 3,000 years after the event in question, it hardly seems reasonable for us to judge such an event from a 21st Century perspective without having the background knowledge on first of all, just how terrible and unjust the Canaanites were, and just what might have been if the slaughter had not occurred. I would never try to excuse an act of genocide, but from my perspective as a believer in a good God, who judges evil harshly, the narrative does not upset me. The scriptures also attest to the fact that first of all we are all sinners, and second of all there will be an end-times judgment even harsher than that depicted in the Canaanite slaughter - one in which God himself will be the judge and executioner. This vision does not cause the idea of a good and just God to escape me. Or perhaps you won't believe in a god or gods unless you found one to your liking, who doesn't judge, but simply lets us do what we want - let's us choose our own morality? Is that the sort of god you would believe in? If so, I think that sort of god would be a terrible and unloving god. The mightiest would win and the weak would have no protector. So are you really wiser than those Christians who believe that a good God would judge evil, yet give us every opportunity to come into relationship with him, with the reward of eternal life - even to the innocent ones among the Canaanites who were slaughtered? In the context of scripture the event is an act of justice and providence, not an act of genocide.CannuckianYankee
October 27, 2011
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CY, thanks for that, especially the effort on the Dennett transcript. I think Dennett stumbles in trying to argue for abstract causation, but I found his comments interesting nonetheless. He invokes an intelligent agent making use of abstract principles in order to provide an example of abstract causation -- but WLC's point still stands (which I believe possibly derives from C.S. Lewis; and I've heard Lennox say something similar) that the principles governing triangulation (or any abstract concept) don't cause anything -- it's the application of the concept that has an effect -- in Dennett's example, it requires intelligent causation. Stating that we don't know anything about non-physical causation doesn't solve that problem, it underscores it.material.infantacy
October 27, 2011
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bornagain77, I don't think so. Even if God is real, if he is like the character related in the Bible, I think a man reasoning for himself and toward pro-human values and virtues will find himself morally compelled to curse and defy such a tyrant. That is, if God has my eternal soul in his hands, that's not warrant for me to be a coward in the face of his monstrous behavior, or to pretend his evils are anything else. That is just a very pure form of debasing oneself, isn't it?eigenstate
October 27, 2011
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ScottAndrews2, By "human flourishing" I wasn't referring to something strictly utilitarian that holds the "good of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Humans are social beings, so "flourishing" is to some extent necessarily a team sport. But the Colombians you refer to above, or the Midianites the Israelites supposedly slaughtered to the last infant at God's behest are not themselves flourishing. They are dead, deprived of the most precious resource they have, their health and consciousness, and are rendered unable to flourish in any sense, any more. Which is not to say that interests will not clash. Sometimes, choices have to be made, and killing a few does mean saving many more, no way around it. The particularly acute grievance in the case of genocide and Craig's defense of it is the gratuitous nature of the extent and "completeness" of the killing. Innocent women and children who were no longer any threat to the Israelis were slaughtered as part of a grand (and gratuitous design). We lament killing in war now, etc., but reserve special recriminations for just that kind of gratuitous and massive killing and infliction of suffering. Could we pursue relief from whatever drug problems you are thinking about in America (or whatever) WITHOUT genocide being waged against Colombians? I think there's good reason to suppose we could, and reasonable, practical alternatives are available that do balance the "flourishing" interests of the Colombians rather than just gratuitously wiping them out. That's the real rub -- the kind of atrocity Craig defends is so mindless, such a wholesale indulgence in unneeded death and suffering. To be human and aware of one's world around us is to understand that life, a long life, even with just a little flourishing, is relatively rare and new phenomenon for mankind. Death and suffering come all to easy just as things are, and here God, the "omnibenevolent" deity demands an orgy of slaughter and killing, far beyond any measured or proportionate response for purposes of self-defense. That's why such campaigns from earthly tyrants are decried as something... more... "crimes against humanity" itself, beyond just execrable crimes. As for reasoning toward principles and values that are effective in promoting human flourishing, at both the individual level, and at the group level, I wonder if you aren't mistaking a complex and difficult challenge with "vacuous". As an former Christian, I can well understand how that can appear "vacuous" against the easy, abdicated backdrop of God-said-it-I-believe-it-that-settles-it approaches to moral calculus. Humans are messy, conflicted, complex, challenging beings, psychologically. Human morals and ethics are similarly problematic, for that very reason. We have some very effective tools available in our ability to reason, cooperate, test, adjust and evaluate critically, but we are not gods. We are just humans, and these are humble and challenging tools toward complex problems. But at least they aren't imaginary!eigenstate
October 27, 2011
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Daniel Dennett on debating with William Lane Craig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb10QvaHpS4 Transcript: "What professor Craig does brilliantly and with a wonderful enthusiasm, is he takes our every day intuitions, our gut feelings of what's plausible, what's counterintuitive, what couldn't possibly be true and he cantilevers them out into territory where they've never been tested in cosmology where whatever the truth is it's mind-boggling. So we know; we know in advance that whatever the truth is, it's going to be jaw-droppingly implausible and counterintuitive in one way or another. The simplest expression of this I think was due to the late Philip Morrison who pointed out 'perhaps we are alone in the universe. Perhaps there's no other planet in the whole universe that has intelligent life on it. Or perhaps that's not true.' Both alternatives are mind-boggling. The hypothesis that we're alone is mind-boggling; the hypothesis that we're not alone is mind-boggling, so you can't use mind-bogglingness as your litmus test. The truth is going to be very hard to believe; and some of our home truths are going to have to be abandoned. We already know this from quantum physics. We already know this from Einstein. How do we get the leverage to find the epistemic sort of leverage to dislodge something that just seems so crashingly obvious, we're prepared to use it as a premise? It takes a huge scientific structure with complex mathematical arguments and a sort of delicious conspiracy of confirmatory evidence, and finally people shake their heads and say: 'OK, however counterintuitive this is we're going to have to accept it.' That's the situation in quantum mechanics as Richard Feynman, the late great physicist said. And he was, he was as arrogant a scientist as there ever was. He had a black belt in overconfidence. And he says 'I don't understand quantum mechanics, nobody understands quantum mechanics.; Ah, maybe nobody can. In those circumstances you come to trust the mathematical theory that you can't interpret yet. Raging battles over how to interpret quantum mechanics: unsettled. But, as Feynman points out, the mathematical structure, which is just in some sense a black box that we can't yet get to the bottom of; it predicts results of such breathtaking accuracy. This comparison, I won't get it exactly right, but I think it, it's like being able to measure the distance between San Francisco and Miami to a hair's breadth. Breathtakingly accurate predictions; those are the sorts of just the weight of evidence that can overturn everyday intuitions that you think: 'that couldn't possibly be false.' Ah, but it turns out to be false. And what Professor Craig has shown us is how the arguments go and how, if you start with a bunch of initially very plausible premises, and in each case he says: 'look, this is a very plausible premise, I don't see how this could be false. This, boy this just stands to reason.' And then you pursue it and pursue it, and he does that, as near as I can see I have no quarrels with the relentless development he puts on those premises, but we end up at really remarkably implausible conclusions. Now officially of course, if you end up with a contradictory, as self-contradictory conclusion, you've got a reductio ad absurdum argument and something has to give. I cannot pin a formal reductio on anything; at least if I can, I can't do it impromptu. With an awful lot going on in that talk. But I can point to some areas of suspicion. Um, first I want to address one of the points that came up late. Maybe I'll just make that point and then, and then that will be enough. Let us suppose for the sake of argument that the cosmological argument, one of the cosmological arguments that he presents does favor the conclusion that the cause of the universe is a timeless, changeless, abstract, immaterial whatever. At that point we have no idea what that might be. But whatever it is, it's the cause of the universe. Maybe it's the idea of an apple. Maybe it's the square root of seven. 'But no,' he says, 'It's nothing like that, because abstract things can't cause things.' Who says? Who says abstract things can't cause things? My favorite example of an abstract thing causing things is the principle of triangulation so that when you, when you wanna keep your house from going like this (physical demonstration), you put a triangular piece on and you tack it down and then thanks to the rigidity of triangles you create a rigid structure. It seems causal. It's quite wonderful the effect of tacking that extra piece on and making the triangle, and now we've got a rigid figure. It's, you put in geometry, an abstract principle being invoked in a causal way. But you say: 'well that's not really causation.' OK, it's something like causation. And of course we've already heard from professor Craig, it's not really like causation when God causes the universe, because it's not it's not causation of; it's not physical causation. Well what do we know about non-physical causation? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So we're really just guessing at what non-physical causation could be. Our intuitions just don't carry us into that area. Now contemporary cosmology is a fascinating area and I must say it, it completely twists my head up, and I have no confidence about anything in that area. I'm delighted that Professor Craig mentioned my colleague (Alex deLincoln?), who is one smart dude, and I wish I could, I wish I could get to the bottom of all of this stuff thatAlex does. Uh, I wish Alex were here to respond. Because I know that Alex and Alan Guth and some of these other people would have an awful lot to say. Unfortunately it would be highly technical, and I don't think that I would understand it, and I don't think most of you would understand it, but it, but they first of all, they wouldn't agree. Contemporary cosmology is in a wonderful snarl. And we're gonna; those of us who are not mathematicians and physicists are going to have to sit on the sidelines and wait for something to percolate out of this. But the intrepidness with which Professor Craig leaps in there and chooses sides is a wonderful thing; I just don't have his courage on that point. But back to the question of this changeless God. The trouble with a changeless God is that IT is changeless. It is outside of time. Don't bother praying to it or certainly don't expect IT in time to hear your prayer and answer your prayer. A changeless God is a Deist God at best. So that's why I don't think that most people in the world who believe in God need take anything more than the most passing curiosity or interest in the battle of cosmology. Because it doesn't really reflect a response to their curiosity at all. Now Professor Craig says that this, he's got some arguments that this is a personal God. Ah, one of the premises is “There's two kinds of causation: scientific causation and personal causation.” I submit that that's just false. That, that's just as good as my life work, to show how personal causation is, is reduces to scientific causation. So that's where I would drive the wedge in there. But that's a long story. Thanks very much." It appears that Dennett is rather congenial about WLC as far as his courage in defending his position, and as far as his enthusiasm. Then there's Andrew Copson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXAm7OMvxuA Partial Transcript: "Well I understand why a lot of people don't want to debate him one-on-one. The one-on-one occasions that he does uh, micromanage, really in terms of format to his advantage; they're often set up occasions with largely Christian audiences who come to see him, and a lot of people find his arguments contradictory and contorted and very obscure, but plausible to the untrained eye, so really, they take a lot of refuting, and it's (something you have to?) refute in writing afterwards. Live, it's quite difficult. So a lot of people don't like to debate him one-on-one and I completely understand that." So we have three opinions regarding debating with Craig: Dawkins - he's immoral Dennett - (in a roundabout sort of way) - he's naive Copson - he's disingenuous Which is it? All of these? One underlining factor I see in all of these opinions is that they refuse to consider the arguments on their merits. Dennet thinks that because Craig couldn't possibly understand cosmology because he doesn't, that Craig doesn't really know what the truth is. None of us does. Copson thinks that all of Craig's debates are a Christian set-up. Dawkins thinks Craig is morally reprehensible and naive and a whole host of other things. Well what all these things have also in common is that they are excuses for not addressing arguments. Copson in particular thinks that the one-on-one debate format does not leave enough room for effectively addressing the arguments. Well too bad. It's called research. Research that is done prior to the debate. A debate is not held in a vacuum. Craig's writings are available. If one hasn't done the necessary research (as Craig has done) to know what the opponent is arguing, then yes, I can see how a one-on-one debate will not have an outcome to one's advantage. So it's a Copson cop-out. Dennett's excuse is interesting. One has to be a cosmologist to understand the basics of causation. Fine. Cosmology would certainly be helpful, but Craig is arguing from principles upon which even cosmology is based. You certainly couldn't be an effective cosmologist without understanding the philosophical basis for why you know something to be true or false. These are the foundations from which Craig forms his arguments. Dawkins is simply being silly. Is he a coward? I don't think so. I think he's simply trying to avoid the arguments in order to keep his own arguments out of the light of scrutiny. That might be sort of an intellectual cowardice in some respects, but I don't think he's necessarily afraid to debate so long as there's a format to his liking. I would guess that he agrees with Copson's cop-out.CannuckianYankee
October 27, 2011
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In line with my comment above, why couldn't God just use his power to stop the Cannanites eating children or whatever it was they were said to be doing? Why did he have to have them killed?Timbo
October 27, 2011
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No, I don't think it is right for God to kill an evildoer. For one thing I don't think the death penalty is morally defensible for us, let alone God. I meant, God can do whatever he wants! As an omnipotent entity he can just make the evildoer not evil with a flick of his fingers surely?Timbo
October 27, 2011
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"You know why Dr. Liddle. (Unless you have figured out how to derive an “ought” from an “is”)" --"Ought" is derived from goals and desires, which in the case of morality, come from empathy and reason. I believe this to be the case for both Christians and atheists. If God exists, why "ought" someone obey Him? Probably because it seems the reasonable and empathetic thing to do. One can't argue both that morality is important because of empathy and reason (which I'm pretty sure most Christians would) and at the same time argue that morality is meaningless without God's laws.goodusername
October 27, 2011
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eigenstate, since God is real and you are not God then it necessarily follows that it is you who is severely twisted in your exegesis so as to so unwisely condemn God who holds the fate of your eternal soul in His hands.bornagain77
October 27, 2011
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This whole matter forced me to make my mind up about this Canaanite matter and I think my effort to find insight might have crossed some different boundaries. Please evaluate. IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: Human judgments are not God's judgments and God's judgement of the Canaanites is above any human reproach, simply be definition of who God is. In the case of the Canaanites I would say the moral judgments of Godly people would have been the same then as Godly people today. In practice this would imply that the actions of the generals and soldiers executing this Divine command would have been judged like it would today - as being evil in terms of our human obligation. People then and now would simply not have the means to assert that the divine command is there to overrule our moral obligation. Infact I think that it would not have come into action if the people involved were not influenced above their natural moral tendencies (This is a well known phenomenon where people of any belief system execute things they would not under normal conditions) . Like a temporary moral switch that were switched off. I therefore strongly feel that every Godfearing person of that period would have tried to get out of the execution of the command. God being omnipotent and omniscient would never expected humans to act as if His moral judgements are their moral judgements. Abraham is a case in point when he were asked to sacrifice his son - he trusted that God will supply a physical & moral outcome (... Remember this was not a judgement from God but a test to expose the depth of Abraham's faith to Abraham himself and everyone hearing about this) . This implies that He will get his judgments executed without expecting humans to abdicate their moral duties. To illustrate this. I think that those killing non combatants then would have been justly tried if an International Court of Justice were in effect then. This would have maintained both God's execution (... which would have happened by the hand of men or otherwise, regardless) as well as the universal human moral obligation (... As it is instituted by Divine revelation) In summary, it should be clear from our own human experience that we cannot assume that it were simply a Divine decree that moved the Israelites to execute a Divine judgment like this. Overriding authority and influence is a well established fact in law today and it might even have ensured acquittal for the perpetrators without condoning their actions.mullerpr
October 27, 2011
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Thanks. For the response. I think you mean "OT" not "NT."Collin
October 27, 2011
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Well, I don't know, Collin. My bias is strongly pacifist, and I find it hard to justify those attacks. But I think that often ethical dilemmas are between two evils, made worse by the fact that we have to guess at the likely results of alternative courses of action. Perhaps those attacks saved lives in the end. I don't now. But they were not genocides which is a term usually reserved for the deliberate eradication of a population or culture as the primary effect of an action, and often deliberately targets children to bring about that end, as well as the abduction and/or rape of the women. I do not believe that Churchill or Truman intended to eradicate German/Japanese culture, but to end the war. Hitler, on the other hand, most certainly committed genocide. On at least three occasions in the NT, God allegedly commands or commits genocide: the Canaanites, the Midianites, and of course the entire world bar 8 people in the Flood. Anyway, I'm going to log out of UD shortly and take an extended break. It's been nice to talk to you, but I think I've been a thorn in your collective sides for long enough :) If you want to drop by The Skeptical Zone you'll be very welcome, as will anyone from UD.Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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He endorses it when God orders it. God doesn't get judged as "good" or "evil", in his view. Good and evil are defined by his nature. As Sam Harris pointed out in his recent debate with Craig, if God's decree was that every third child should have its eyeballs put out at birth, that's the end of the story. Craig would be obligated to defend that as indisputably, unassailably "good" as he is with the genocide against the Midianites. When you endorse Yahweh in the divine command sense (that is, surrendering one's own moral judgment in deference to the plenary authority of the Almighty), you endorse what Yahweh endorses. Genocide, stoning of homosexuals, etc. One can step back from that bit of moral atrocity, and many, many Christians have the sense and brains to do this. But there you break with Craig's theology. Such autonomy violates both his commitments to inerrancy and the unquestionable endorsement of whatever God chooses as necessarily good, no matter what it is.eigenstate
October 27, 2011
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From the source: Deuteronomy 9:5
It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.
Keep in mind that God would have foreseen when making such a promise what the future state of the land would be. It's not a case of, 'Oops, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, so die.' Also, keep in mind that the opportunity was open for anyone to hear and turn back. Many did. Why do you think God made such a spectacular display of miracles in the preceding years? Among other things, it caused everyone to hear of him and associate his name with the Israelite people. He got the word out across entire populations long before there were newspapers or phone lines. In fact, in the case of the Gibeonites, years later God showed them greater favor than the Israelites. And then he eventually erased the distinction between Jews and non-Jews. Long before Jesus he made it abundantly clear that his favor was never based on nationality. He didn't hint at it. He spelled it out. Again, if you don't believe that, then you don't believe that God did it anyway. So why care?ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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Craig's views are pretty hard to defend. And I agree that people should not try to make this about the philosophical question "where does morality come from anyway?" That is just hiding the ball. But I think that Mr. Torley's point is that Dawkins has just found a convenient excuse. I wonder if you'd respond to my question above about actions by the Allies in World War 2.Collin
October 27, 2011
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Hi everyone, Thanks for all the comments. I've just got time for a few quick responses. Elizabeth: You ask: "How can genocide be just?" Wrong question. First ask yourself this: "Could it ever be right for God to kill an evildoer?" As I argued in my reply to Professor Dawkins, no-one has been able to show why it wouldn't be. Next, ask yourself: "Could it ever be right for God to slay an entire society of evildoers, especially when every man and woman living in that society engages in morally depraved practices?" Once again, I think you will agree that if the answer to the first question is "Yes", then the answer to the second question has to be "Yes". Now, finally ask yourself: "Could it ever be right for God to slay the innocent children in that society, along with their parents?" The answer I gave was: "If God knows that a fate worse than death awaits them were they to go on living, and if he slays them such in a way that they experience neither pain nor dread in their final moments, then there seems to be no reason in principle why He could not." Now, when God has done all that, you could say that He has destroyed an entire culture. But if you're going to object to God behaving in that way, you would really have to show that it was wrong for Him to slay even one individual. Nick Matzke asked how Dan Barker's and Sam Harris' views could possibly be worse than William Lane Craig's defense of Divine genocide. I think I see what the problem is here. An action is not good or bad because of its results, but because of the attitudes underlying it. If you want to assess how evil someone is, ask yourself this: "What's the worst thing he would do to me?" That's what's so horrifying about the act utilitarianism embraced by Barker and Harris. There isn't anything they wouldn't do, in order to promote the greatest happiness of the greatest number. They would be prepared to inflict unlimited degradation on an individual, for that purpose. Degradation of an individual - e.g. through torture or rape - can be an even more profound insult against human dignity than killing them. There are certain things that the God of the Old Testament would never do to people. He never commands torture. He orders bodies to be buried by sundown. He forbids bestiality. Why? Because we are all made in His image. Even when He destroys people, He does not degrade them. If I had a choice between living in an Israelite theocracy and a society governed by act utilitarian principles, I know which one I'd choose. The worst fate that could happen to me in the former society is that I'd be killed. In the latter society, I might be tortured, drugged, degraded and brainwashed. That's far worse. Must run; off to work now. Be back later.vjtorley
October 27, 2011
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Elizabeth, I hesitate to drive off the "absolute moral good" cliff again, because I think it's an irrelevant point. But you seem insistent that to kill a population of people is an absolute moral wrong. Why? I'm not asking it in the snide, 'you're an atheist so you don't believe anything' way. Really, why? You can never really judge anything without the facts, not even this. And in this case those facts include what the long-term outcome would be with out without that decision. And that long-term outcome may even include some of those who died. I don't know. I'm not asking you to agree with it. I'm asking you to realize that although your point of view is a good principle to live by, it is not a universal all-or-nothing case of right or wrong. Within the context of belief in God is the belief that he gives us enough wisdom to live by, but that he has it all. That enables him to decide what is absolutely right or wrong, but enables us to live within narrower guidelines. And if you don't believe in a God who can make those decisions, select the best outcome, and right any wrong, then you don't believe that God commanded those things anyway. So what does it matter? It's like cutting a man's heart out while he's still alive and removing it, and cutting another man's heart out while it's still beating and putting it in the other body. No matter how you slice it, that will always be barbaric and shocking outside of its context. In this case the wrong you perceive cannot be separated from its context. As an atheist, how can you believe the verses that say God commanded it and reject the ones in which he expresses his hatred of bloodshed and his love of justice? It's pointless to make arguments about any belief system from outside of its context. To me, the next logical argument is, what if someone says that God commanded him to raise an army and commit another genocide? If this act is viewed as righteous, what else will someone do? I don't disparage such reasoning. It's rational, and such fears have been realized many times over. But there's no value in explaining it to anyone who doesn't really want to know about it. The world is full of people, including clergy and theologians, who have read the Bible from cover to cover and have never been moved by it, because they view it as a collection of stories, just one more dusty old book to discuss academically.ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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I don't "want to make this about Craig's views", Collin. You can talk about Dawkins if you want. But Craig's views remain on the table, because Dawkins placed them there. I'm still amazed people can defend them. As for Dawkins, I don't hold any great brief for Dawkins. But I will object when people claim that Dawkins, or any atheist, has no right to critique Craig because we have no basis for our morality or whatever. We do.Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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Thanks for pointing this out, nullasalus. Dr. Liddle (and others) want to make this about Craig's views. This post (and the one before it) are about Dawkins' excuses. I couldn't blame Dawkins if this were really his view, but I don't think that it is. He doesn't want to debate Craig because Craig would win. And I wouldn't want to debate Craig for the same reason, but I'm humble enough to acknowledge it.Collin
October 27, 2011
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Maybe it’s me projecting onto Dawkins It is. And that's the problem. The case you're making here - and again, this case mostly comes down to 'I dislike Craig's meta-ethics!' - has nothing to do with what Dawkins said. As I said, by all means, let's see Dawkins say that one can reasonably come to the conclusion that infanticide, genocide, bestiality, etc are acceptable, even moral acts - but that what makes Craig go a bridge too far is the particular meta-ethics he upholds. It would suck almost all of the air out of his reply - you know it, I know it. But more than that, Dawkins simply did not present the argument you've been giving here anyway. The concern is not "Hypothetically, what reasons could Dawkins give for refusing to debate Craig which sound principled yet which don't run roughshod over his past stated views and acts?" It's "Do the reasons Dawkins gave hold water?" And no, they don't. Dawkins is ducking Craig because he thinks he would do poorly. He can't and won't say that, but there's the truth that everyone knows.nullasalus
October 27, 2011
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I don't think it can. But what about when the Allies destroyed many German and Japanese cities in World War 2? I'm curious to know if you think those were justified or not.Collin
October 27, 2011
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If I may, I don't think that Craig's moral philosophy really centers around this topic. He is merely trying to reconcile his belief in the inerrancy of the bible and his belief in the goodness of God. That's a very difficult thing to do here and I don't think he succeeds. But I do not think that Craig is trying to justify any proposed genocide nor do I think that if you asked him what his moral philosophy is that he'd even think about this part of the bible. He'd tell you more about the teachings of Jesus and Paul than what is found in Leviticus (or wherever).Collin
October 27, 2011
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Craig does not endorse genocide. I am fully convinced that he would never support someone proposing it today. He is just trying to make sense of a genocide that happened. Maybe he fails, but he is NOT endorsing genocide.Collin
October 27, 2011
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God gave the Canaanites sufficient warning (470 years of warning) before executing a purge of their presence in the land meant for the Hebrews.
"meant for the Hebrews"? Can you hear yourself?Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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And are you serious in that you presuppose yourself to be wiser than Almighty God?
I suppose myself wiser than those "Christians" who imagine that a good God could have ordered genocide.Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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How can genocide be just?Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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your atheism which tells us that everything can be reduced to matter in motion
It "tells us" no such thing.Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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There really only needs to be one question posed to Dawkins. "Consistent with your atheism which tells us that everything can be reduced to matter in motion, why should I care about the Canaanites being slaughtered?"geoffrobinson
October 27, 2011
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Eigenstate,
In no way does that remove “good” or “evil” from the lexicon. Instead, this is a position that provides a real world ground for those semantics. Moral goods are those principles and consequences that promote human flourishing, on human terms, in light of evolved human biology and psychology.
So you're saying that if one group of people wiped out another group of people thousands of years ago, this did not promote human flourishing. Perhaps if we bomb Colombia into the stone age they will stop exporting cocaine, and we will thus promote human flourishing. Perhaps if we change the three-strikes rule to include immediate execution the rest of us will flourish. Any of these things could be good. Or they could be evil. Who decides? Is it a vote? Do the people who die get a vote? What the heck is "flourishing?" Did you flourish today? Your definition, "Moral goods are those principles and consequences that promote human flourishing, on human terms, in light of evolved human biology and psychology," is vacuous.ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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I’m sure this has already been pointed out, but how can Dawkins judge anything as good or bad, ever, after stating that there is no good or bad?
I think you missed the key qualifier there -- "at bottom". There is no "cosmic moral authority", in his view. Man is the measure. That's local, not cosmic, evolutionary, biological, physical, not transcendant, metaphysical. In no way does that remove "good" or "evil" from the lexicon. Instead, this is a position that provides a real world ground for those semantics. Moral goods are those principles and consequences that promote human flourishing, on human terms, in light of evolved human biology and psychology. There is no "cosmic good" that transcends that, and this insight GROUNDS values rather than annihilates them. It says something quite opposite of how you took it then. This materialist view has this semantic grounding as a real world, objectively verifiable basis (man has a physical nature and psychology we can investigate scientifically as the basis for informing our moral calculus, in other words), which is grounds that superstitious appeals to a conjectured deity-as-moral-lawgiver can only ground as a matter of conjecture. The theist has no grounds for morality "at bottom" either, in his view, but is in a much worse predicament. For he is confused and mistaken about the basis and warrant for moral principle formation. Materialist ethics are as complicated and messy and difficult as human psychology and biology are, because they are intricately bound up in that. But in that they are attached to the real world, to the real nature of humans, as the background for thinking about good and evil.eigenstate
October 27, 2011
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