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“Liar, liar, pants on fire”? Ten Tough Questions for Professor Dawkins.

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For several years now, Professor Richard Dawkins, the renowned evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, has refused to debate the topic of God’s existence with the philosopher and Christian apologist, Professor William Lane Craig. That is Professor Dawkins’ privilege; he is under no obligation to debate with anyone. Until recently, Dawkins’ favorite reason for refusing to face off against Professor William Lane Craig was that Craig was nothing more than a professional debater. But now, in an article in The Guardian (20 October 2011) entitled, Why I refuse to debate with William Lane Craig, Richard Dawkins leads off by firing this salvo: “This Christian ‘philosopher’ is an apologist for genocide. I would rather leave an empty chair than share a platform with him.”

In the same article, Professor Dawkins savagely castigates William Lane Craig for his willingness to justify “genocides ordered by the God of the Old Testament”. According to Dawkins, “Most churchmen these days wisely disown the horrific genocides ordered by the God of the Old Testament” – unlike Craig, who argues that “the Canaanites were debauched and sinful and therefore deserved to be slaughtered.” Dawkins then quotes William Lane Craig as justifying the slaughter on the grounds that: (i) if these children had been allowed to live, they would have turned the Israelites towards serving the evil Canaanite gods; and (ii) the children who were slaughtered would have gone to Heaven instantly when they died, so God did them no wrong in taking their lives. Dawkins triumphantly concludes:

Would you shake hands with a man who could write stuff like that? Would you share a platform with him? I wouldn’t, and I won’t. Even if I were not engaged to be in London on the day in question, I would be proud to leave that chair in Oxford eloquently empty.

Professor Dawkins, allow me to briefly introduce myself. My name is Vincent Torley (my Web page is here), and I have a Ph.D. in philosophy. I’m an Intelligent Design proponent who also believes that modern life-forms are descended from a common ancestor that lived around four billion years ago. I’m an occasional contributor to the Intelligent Design Website, Uncommon Descent. Apart from that, I’m nobody of any consequence.

Professor Dawkins, I have ten charges to make against you, and they relate to apparent cases of lying, hypocrisy and moral inconsistency on your part. Brace yourself. I’ve listed the charges for the benefits of people reading this post.

My Ten Charges against Professor Richard Dawkins

1. Professor Dawkins has apparently lied to his own readers at the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science. In a recent post (dated 1 May 2011) he stated that he “didn’t know quite how evil [William Lane Craig’s] theology is” until atheist blogger Greta Christina alerted him to Craig’s views in an article she wrote on 25 April 2011, when in fact, Dawkins had already read Professor Craig’s “staggeringly awful” essay on the slaughter of the Canaanites and blogged about it in his personal forum (http://forum.richarddawkins.net), three years earlier, on 21 April 2008. In other words, Professor Dawkins’ alleged shock at recently discovering Craig’s “evil” views turns out to have been feigned: he knew about these views some years ago.

2. Professor Dawkins has recently maligned Professor William Lane Craig as a “fundamentalist nutbag” who isn’t even a real philosopher and whose only claim to fame is that he is a professional debater, but his own statements about Craig back in 2008 completely contradict these assertions. Moreover, Dawkins’ characterization of Craig as a “fundamentalist nutbag” is particularly unjust, given that Professor Craig has admitted that he’s quite willing to change his mind on the slaughter of the Canaanites, if proven wrong. Although Professor Craig upholds Biblical inerrancy, he does so provisionally: he says it’s possible that the Bible might be sometimes wrong on moral matters, and furthermore, he acknowledges that the Canaanite conquest might not have even happened, as an historical event. That certainly doesn’t sound like the writings of a “nutbag” to me.

3. Professor Dawkins says that he refuses to share a platform with William Lane Craig, because of his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites, but he has already debated someone who holds substantially the same views as Craig on the slaughter of the Canaanites. On 23 October 1996, Dawkins debated Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, who also believes that the slaughter of the Canaanites was morally justified under the circumstances at the time (see here and here). What’s more, in 2006, Dawkins appeared in a television panel with Professor Richard Swinburne, who holds the same view. Dawkins might reply that Swinburne did not make his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites public until 2011, but as I shall argue below, he can hardly make the same excuse about not knowing Rabbi Boteach’s views. If he did not know, then he was extraordinarily naive.

4. Professor Dawkins refuses on principle to share a platform with William Lane Craig because of his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites, yet he is perfectly willing to share a platform with atheists whose moral opinions are far more horrendous: Dan Barker, who says that child rape could be moral if it were absolutely necessary in order to save humanity; Dr. Sam Harris, who says that pushing an innocent man into the path of an oncoming train is OK, if it is necessary in order to save a greater number of human lives; and Professor Peter Singer, who believes that sex with animals is not intrinsically wrong, if both parties consent.

5. Professor Dawkins refuses to share a platform with William Lane Craig, who holds that God commanded the Israelites to slaughter Canaanite babies whom He subsequently recompensed with eternal life in the hereafter. However, he is quite happy to share a platform with Professor P. Z. Myers, who doesn’t even regard newborn babies as people with a right to life. (See here for P.Z. Myers’ original post, here for one reader’s comment and here for P. Z. Myers’ reply, in which he makes his own views plain.) Nor does Professor Peter Singer, whom Dawkins interviewed back in 2009, regard newborn babies as people with a right to life. (See this article.)

6. Apparently Professor Dawkins himself does not believe that a newborn human baby is a person with the same right to life that you or I have, and does not believe that the killing of a healthy newborn baby is just as wrong as the act of killing you or me. For he sees nothing intrinsically wrong with the killing of a one- or two-year-old baby suffering from a horrible incurable disease, that meant it was going to die in agony in later life (see this video at 24:12). He also claims in The God Delusion (Boston & New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2006, p. 293) that the immorality of killing an individual is tied to the degree of suffering it is capable of. By that logic, it must follow that killing a healthy newborn baby, whose nervous system is still not completely developed, is not as bad as killing an adult.

7. In his article in The Guardian (20 October 2011) condemning William Lane Craig, Professor Dawkins fails to explain exactly why it would be wrong under all circumstances for God (if He existed) to take the life of an innocent human baby, if that baby was compensated with eternal life in the hereafter. In fact, as I will demonstrate below, if we look at the most common arguments against killing the innocent, then it is impossible to construct a knock-down case establishing that this act of God would be wrong under all possible circumstances. Strange as it may seem, there are always some possible circumstances we can envisage, in which it might be right for God to act in this way.

8. Professor Dawkins declines to say whether he agrees with some of his fans and followers, who consider the God of the Old Testament to be morally equivalent to Hitler (see here and here for examples). However, the very comparison is odious, for in the same Old Testament books which Dawkins condemns, God exhorts the Israelites: “Do not seek revenge”; “Love your neighbor as yourself” and: “The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 19:18, 33-34, NIV.) That certainly doesn’t sound like Hitler to me – and I’ve personally visited Auschwitz and Birkenau. I wonder if Professor Dawkins has.

9. Dawkins singles out Professor William Lane Craig for condemnation as a “fundamentalist nutbag”, but he fails to realize that Professor William Lane Craig’s views on the slaughter of the Canaanites were shared by St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, the Bible commentator Matthew Henry, and John Wesley, as well as some modern Christian philosophers of eminent standing, such as Richard Swinburne, whom he appeared on a television panel with in 2006. Is he prepared to call all these people “nutbags” too? That’s a lot of crazy people, I must say.

10. Unlike the late Stephen Jay Gould (who maintained that the experiment would be just about the most unethical thing he could imagine), Professor Dawkins believes that the creation of a hybrid between humans and chimps “might be a very moral thing to do”, so long as it was not exploited or treated like a circus freak (see this video at 40:33), although he later concedes that if only one were created, it might get lonely (perhaps a group of hybrids would be OK, then?) Dawkins has destroyed his own moral credibility by making such a ridiculous statement. How can he possibly expect us to take him seriously when he talks about ethics, from now on?

Professor Dawkins, I understand that you are a very busy man. Nevertheless, I should warn you that a failure to answer these charges will expose you to charges of apparent lying, character assassination, public hypocrisy, as well as an ethical double-standard on your part. The choice is yours.

Read the rest of the article here.

Comments
Dr Liddle God gave the Canaanites sufficient warning (470 years of warning) before executing a purge of their presence in the land meant for the Hebrews. Furthermore, it was not meant as a wholesale slaughter of Canaanites on the basis of their being Canaanite, but on the basis of their not turning from sin. This degree of undeserved patience on the part of a just and holy God in entirely inconsistent with your (and Dawkin's) caricature of the Hebrew/Christian God, especially in light of the suffering and cruelty inflicted upon innocent children by the Canaanites themselves. As you may remember from an earlier post on some other thread, I listed some Scriptures that demonstrate the Canaanites were actually torturing and sacrificing young children in ritual murders by burning them alive. Also, that God expressly forbade the Hebrews from engaging in ritual child sacrifice, placed among the prohibitions of sexual sin are suggestive that the Canaanite culture was so morally depraved that sexual acts were taking place simultaneously with the child sacrifices. Again, this is not consistent with the (your) typical objection, as if the Canaanites were somehow themselves saints undeserving of judgment and worthy of some kind of moral defense. No, rather there is a murder and cruel suffering of young children on a much greater scale going on this very day in the form of abortion, the forcible ripping out of a mother's womb of an innocent, young life....a heinous crime that atheists are more likely to support than theists and of which the Hebrew/Christian God expressly stands against. So again, I ask you to examine yourself. You are not qualified to indict the Hebrew/Christian God, but we both know that at some time in your life, you have lied, stolen or used God's name in vain. If there is anyone guilty and needing a defense, it is you. God loves you so much that He made a way for you to be forgiven of your sins, in the person of Jesus Christ and His work upon the Cross before rising again on the 3rd day in view of over 500 eyewitnesses over a period of 40 days. This demonstration of self-sacrificial love is again, not consistent with the caricature that Dawkins continues to try to (desperately) foist upon others. You don't have to lower yourself to that level.Bantay
October 27, 2011
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nullasalus, I'm not convinced Dawkins is familiar with "divine command theory" as a term of art. He may be, but that's clearly what Craig is espousing, as a working label in theology and theistic ethics. That he doesn't use the term doesn't discount his grasp of the problem -- the poverty of a "God said it, that settles it, period" as the overriding principle. If you were expecting Dawkins to deconstruct Divine Command Theory in his Guardian article, I think you are mistaken on the goal of the piece -- this is retail polemic. And as I said, and this I think is largely to his credit, he's likely not comfortable on that kind of theology-centric analysis on his own. I believe you've missed the major thrust here, though: Neither Dawkins nor Singer nor Harris or any of those guys can get where William Lane Craig stands. To suppose so is to completely miss the meta-ethical chasm that Craig's Divine Command disposition creates between its subscribers and the dialectic-everyone-else. PZ Myers can at least HEAR you (or me), in other words, and your plea for the life interest of a fetus or a newborn. Craig can't possibly even hear you; he can't consider your case, because Just Is As Just Does, and it's an axiom. God declaring genocide good makes it good, and that's that. There is nothing more to hear or consider. Craig is completely incorrigible epistemically in ways that all the "others" you mention would revile. At a minimum, they maintain some semblance of rational corrigibility that Craig has categorically eschewed. If Torley thinks otherwise, I'd relish a chance to see that case for equivalency and cross examine it. That's a pretty lopsided contest, in my view. As for what you'd love to hear Dawkins say, I think I would salute that kind of clarity from Dawkins, myself, and agree with it. Singer (from other points of view) may ARRIVE at evil, but has a reasoning epistemology and a tractable ethical framework to begin with at least. Craig is the mind that BEGINS from evil -- that might makes right, and that what God says is good is unassailably good, by definition, even when tested to such absurd lengths as to making Craig a willing and enthusiastic apologist for the wholesale slaughter of innocents and genocide. That IS unacceptable on a more fundamental level than any wrong beliefs Singer may arrive at. Singer at least begins from reasonable first principles, and is corrigible in principle. Craig does not and is not. Maybe it's me projecting onto Dawkins, but I believe that's the categorical difference, the warrant for the "extra deep outrage" at Craig's position. It's particularly execrably in ways other "wrong moral stances" aren't, and betrays a much deeper and more dangerous moral problem.eigenstate
October 27, 2011
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I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but how can Dawkins judge anything as good or bad, ever, after stating that there is no good or bad? I don't fault him if he follows his beliefs to this logical conclusion. Good for him, he's being honest (until someone does something "bad" to him, I'm sure.) Perhaps he even realizes how absurd it is to call anything (i.e. Israel, Canaan) "bad" while explicitly stating that there is no such thing as "bad." He's just trying to make religious people feel stupid by pointing out what he sees as glaring inconsistencies in their belief system. But he doesn't care to understand that system, so he's just speaking from ignorance. It's like a first grader telling an algebra teacher that variables are stupid because letters can't equal numbers. Anything can seem stupid if you don't understand it. But to use it an excuse to avoid understanding it is willful ignorance. Even ignorance isn't that bad. But to be proud of it is what makes someone a genuine idiot.ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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Richard Dawkins correctly describes what existence amounts to if the atheistic worldview is true:
The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.
This is the universe that atheists have to admit they live in. And in such a universe, it is irrational, meaningless and pointless to express moral outrage about anything. Like the Atheist Bus Campaign said:
There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
As long as you're an atheist, and you're alright (Jack), then moral outrage is a waste of your limited time. Just make sure you do enjoy life - at all costs - because it's not worth postponing oblivion if you're suffering in a pitiless and indifferent universe.Chris Doyle
October 27, 2011
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Chas D, I wasn't entirely sure what position you were taking.
But if one thinks that, behind the Bible, is a being who will both reward the victim with eternal life, and make a specific and just decision on the transgressor based upon proper repentance, that is a position that even the atheist is entitled to query, because of its earthly consequences!
If by "query" you mean inquire about it, I would say it's a position that everyone should query, atheist or otherwise. If by "query" you mean challenge it, then I suppose everyone is entitled. But it's either true or it isn't, and either way challenging it wouldn't make a difference. If I have two children they are entitled to argue about what I would or wouldn't do, but neither one determines the outcome - I do.ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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You know why Dr. Liddle. (Unless you have figured out how to derive an "ought" from an "is")Barry Arrington
October 27, 2011
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This is tricky, but I'm siding with Petrushka, sort of. The Bible does not condemn capital punishment. It acknowledges that governments 'bear the sword' to punish wrongs, and that God permits it. It serves as a deterrent against wrong. At the same time, that sword has been used to wrongfully persecute, and even in recent times to execute obviously innocent people. The scriptures place Christians outside of that. If people are committing crimes and governments are punishing, even killing them, that is between them. God permits that arrangement, and it is not our place to interfere. But similarly, it is not the place of Christians to execute anyone, period. The scriptures make clear (1 Cor 5,6) that the role of Christians is to judge the congregation, and the greatest punishment is excommunication. Those verses spell it out in a few clearly written sentences that leave no room for confusion. God judges those outside, Christians judge those inside. Therefore Christians are not granted the authority to punish a crime by taking a life.ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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Elizabeth, You're right to be shocked by the killing and the deaths. From the position of a Christian, the same God who commanded it gave you the facility to be disturbed by it. The mistake you make is in thinking that the obvious wrongness of you or I or Hitler killing people translates into some absolute moral wrong, that there is no higher vantage point from which such decisions can be made. Petrushka quoted the verse, 'Do not avenge, but leave room for God's wrath.' Just a few verses early it commands us not to be wrathful. That a double standard, and deliberately so. Within a few verses it is written that we should not vengefully express wrath, but God can, should, and does. So from the standpoint of a Christian, there is no conflict, because there is not one standard, but two. Or, to look at it a different way, there is one standard, but God reserves the decision for himself. If you're going to say what God should or shouldn't do or what should makes sense to a Christian, then look at it from that perspective. IOW, if you don't believe that God was justified, then you don't believe in the Bible. If you don't believe in the Bible, then you don't believe that God commanded it. If you don't believe that God commanded it, how can you then turn around and say that he was wrong to command it?ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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'Are you serious?' And are you serious in that you presuppose yourself to be wiser than Almighty God? And though you may not doubt that you understand more than God himself, myself I have more than sufficient reason to believe that you are not nearly as wise as you present yourself to be:
Erasing Hell by Francis Chan - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSYLr8 Job 38:4-11 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched a line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors, when it burst forth and issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed my limit for it, and set bars and doors; When I said, ‘This far you may come but no farther, and here your proud waves must stop!" Hidden Treasures in the Book of Job - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sl0Ln3Ptb8
bornagain77
October 27, 2011
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One more time for the learning impaired- If justice is good and the alleged genocides were just, then it follows that God is still good.Joseph
October 27, 2011
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Yeah, Dawkins can be pretty hypocritical. He nonetheless has an excellent point about Craig's moral philosophy. I'm still stunned that some people here defend it. And I think that drawing some kind of moral equivalence between the butchering of small children because their parents belonged to a population that butchered small children, and the euthanasia of children suffering horribly from an incurable disease is pretty crass. The second is motivated by "treat others as you would be treated". The first is not. Feel free to disagree with both, but let's not pretend there is any moral equivalence, or that the first is not morally inferior to the second.Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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Are you serious?Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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God ordered a one-time, one-place clearing out of the Promised Land. The inhabitants had been unbelievably warped for over 400 years, offering children as live sacrifices to their gods, having sex with animals, etc. (see Leviticus 18 for a laundry list of their deeds). It wasn't genocide, by the way. God ordered the clearing out of a land, not a race. Oh, and this was God ordering this, not a human. He was within his rights as creator.homerj1
October 27, 2011
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Well, you too, have a genocide problem! Even more so, in fact, if you believe God used billions of yrs of vicious, 'red in tooth and claw' 'natural selection' to turn slime into people, then lied and said it was 'very Good'!! As even Dawkins realises! That's why, correctly for once, he has no time for compromisers like most of you ID/Ross-type guys....What awful contortions you must have to go through to subvert the clear teaching of 'In 6 days God made the heavens and the earth and everything that is in them, and rested on the 7th day - therefore the Lord rested on the 7th day and made it holy' etc... There is nothing in the clear examples of rapid, catastrophic geology, or the incredible vagaries of all radiodating methods, the evident rapidity of adaptive 'speciation' or archaeological recent history etc, that does NOT contradict Genesis etc. Jesus et al never ever referred to Genesis etc as anything other than recent history, and just as there are no more than a few thousand yrs in the Torah, so there is'nt in Revelation etc, as we can clearly see already! We should be getting ready for the real, 2 Peter 3 'heat death' of the universe, and warning everbody, but as Jesus et al warned about the complacency 'JUST like the days of Naoh....and significantly for modern Caananites like 'Liberal Christians', ...LOT! 'Will He find faith on earth' when He returns to a world of scripture-twisters and adders to scripture?? 'The time is short'....philip snow
October 27, 2011
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Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
Yes. I think the death penalty is murder. Assuming one is a True Christian.Petrushka
October 27, 2011
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And if you don’t believe in God, then why bother judging him anyway? It isn't so much a question of judging God, but of taking the position "If God exists, then ...". If one is a believer and one thinks that everything that happens will be judged with infinite wisdom, then that can excuse an awful lot 'down here'. Without wishing to disabuse someone of their ultimate faith, one might still want to argue against the effect that some aspect of their belief has on the value they place on other people's lives. The Bible is very clear on killing. But if one thinks that, behind the Bible, is a being who will both reward the victim with eternal life, and make a specific and just decision on the transgressor based upon proper repentance, that is a position that even the atheist is entitled to query, because of its earthly consequences!Chas D
October 27, 2011
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Is a judge who sentences a convicted murderer to death, himself a murderer? Is a vigilante citizen who summarily executes a murder suspect, himself a murderer? If you answer "no" to the first and "yes" to the second, then it would be slander to accuse you of justifying murder.material.infantacy
October 27, 2011
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Why?Elizabeth Liddle
October 27, 2011
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And to think that on another thread I was accused of slander for noticing that UD members have found ways to justify genocide.Petrushka
October 27, 2011
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So it is wrong in the here and now, that's your position? That is, the willful destruction of the innocent is objectively wrong today? That's my position. What's yours?material.infantacy
October 27, 2011
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So, your position is that genocide is wrong now, but was just hunky dory back then?NickMatzke_UD
October 26, 2011
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Only those who remained behind were to be utterly exterminated Is this Craigs loving god ?Graham
October 26, 2011
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Is this the same Dawkins some of you are defending that says this about hitler and moral relativism? http://www.dyeager.org/post/2010/06/more-dawkins-morality-no-absolutes ""Previously we noted in an interview with Richard Dawkins[1], when asked for his definition of morality he responded “Moral philosophic reasoning and a shifting zeitgeist.” In short, society defines whatever it believes is right and wrong. That is, of course, value relativism where nothing is right or wrong—absolute morality doesn’t exist according to Dawkins"" ""The interviewer noticed this, and when prompted to respond Dawkins replied “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right?”. A bizarre place to find yourself in to be sure; Dawkins expresses such contempt for religion and God he finds himself in the strange place in justifying his atheism he can’t even say Hitler was evil."" Dawkins is just a coward , and the true reason hes been ducking Craig all of these years is that he would be trounced in a debate and fears that he would either lose a percentage of his more open minded followers or that he would be exposed for his infantile philosophy and red herring arguments. Im getting great pleasure in knowing that Craig went on dawkins home turf and dawkins is too afraid to debate him there. Dawkins isnt after the truth, he just wants to retain his popularity with his sheeple.wallstreeter43
October 26, 2011
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I don’t find infanticide morally acceptable, or bestiality, or wanton slaughter of human beings. But that doesn’t make these all peers in moral standing. Divine Command commits are particularly toxic because it is a meta-ethical commitment. That you find them toxic does not mean that they are, in fact, toxic - this has to be argued for. More than that, Dawkins did not launch into any sort of criticism about the "meta-ethical commitments" Craig was engaged in. He didn't mention the "divine command theory" once. He appealed, almost exclusively, to the actual acts themselves. Dawkins did not make an argument against, or even a denunciation of, a general ethical/moral theory that could in principle - or did, in fact - lead to conclusions he finds morally abhorrent. He pointed at the end results and sneered "Who could ever defend such acts"? And as Torley pointed out: Well, Dawkins could. And Singer could. And Harris could. And many others could. It undermines his move here completely. This is a case - a very typical case, when it comes to Dawkins - of people presenting what they wish Dawkins would have said, or imagine they could have said, as what he actually said. As it stands, the criticism here would fail against Craig, since it amounts to "I think his theory is abhorrent, and that's that." - but it suffers from the difficulty of not even being the reasoning Dawkins offered to reject Craig. And frankly, I would love - absolutely love - for Dawkins to say, "Look, killing innocent people, infanticide, bestiality and genocide are all reasonable sometimes. But my problem here is how Craig reached these conclusions! No, no, if you're going to kill children, justify it the way Peter Singer does. That's reasonable. This, however, is simply unacceptable."nullasalus
October 26, 2011
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I always get a kick out of observing materialists expressing "moral outrage"...bbigej
October 26, 2011
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What individuals or groups currently endorse the destruction of the innocent in this day and age? That would seem a good indicator of where the substantive "ethical fail" resides.material.infantacy
October 26, 2011
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I don't find infanticide morally acceptable, or bestiality, or wanton slaughter of human beings. But that doesn't make these all peers in moral standing. Divine Command commits are particularly toxic because it is a meta-ethical commitment. The divine command theory subscribe hasn't just made a (possibly) poor moral choice on one issue or another. She has abdicated moral autonomy altogether. Some putative support for infanticide by PZ Myers (not saying he's against what is alleged, I'm just not familiar with his stance) is not like that, it does not consign all moral authority to some unseen, impassable, ineffable deity. That's a problem that completely outclasses an "ethical fail". It's a meta-ethical fail on Craig's part. Any moral mistakes on infanticide questions, as egregious as they may be, pale in comparison to such a meta-ethical fail as Craig's. Literally ANYTHING can be endorsed, and endorsed beyond any corrigibility by the meta-ethical commitments Craig endorses. See, in painful-to-read vivid form, Craig's defense of the slaughter of entire peoples in the OT. That does distinguish Craig's fail from any alleged "equivalent fail" on the part of Myers or Singer. Myers and Singer are without the meta-ethical incorrigibility and irrationality of divine fiat.eigenstate
October 26, 2011
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There are two different ways of looking at this. One if is you don't believe in God, or in the God of the Bible. If you don't, then this is just a bunch of people killing each other over land with no respect for life. That's not what I personally believe, but it's a logical conclusion from that point of view. If you do believe in God, and in the God of the Bible, then you look at the matter from a very different point of view. If God created everything and everyone, knows everything that we don't, and says that he'll never do anything unjust, then you either just take it or leave it. That point of view hinges on whether one is willing to consider that there might be someone else who understands more than we do and is in a position to know what we cannot and make judgments that we cannot. The alternative is to decide that our personal understanding of right and wrong, while perhaps enlightened, also contains the highest form of morality and the greatest wisdom possible. I'm not saying that to judge it, but you must realize that is the position you are taking. Look at the criminals in jail in the United States. They are in and out of prison. Many of them will never know anything else. I certainly don't advocate killing them. But surely you can see that no one has the wisdom to determine what to to with them, how to make them better citizens, or how to prevent the circumstances that led them to where they are. You may make statements about genocide in a mocking tone. But where is your great wisdom, or mine? How many died in Iraq? How many die from violence each day? From poverty? That is the death toll from our collective wisdom. I don't see what higher moral plane it elevates us to that we can so quickly judge the events that took place in the Bible. And if you don't believe in God, then why bother judging him anyway?ScottAndrews2
October 26, 2011
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The summary of these responses amounts to, "Look, infanticide can be morally acceptable. So can bestiality. So can wide-scale slaughter. So can genocide. In fact, these can all be justified as reasonable positions to hold. But, how Craig arrives at these positions is enough to make debating him - that is, showing up to argue that he's wrong - morally repugnant." Dawkins is not refusing to debate WLC on the grounds that he holds 'superstitious, unreasonable beliefs' (From Dawkins' POV, belief in God, belief in inerrancy, etc). He's happily debated others who believe in God, etc. His refusal to debate was supposed to have everything to do with the conclusion Craig came to. But he manifestly tolerates, or even views as reasonable, acts which are as or even more morally repugnant - certainly in a popular sense (which is exactly what Dawkins was hinging quite a lot of his reply on) - as Craig's views. And note that saying "Well I think it's defensible!" doesn't work, because Craig would say the same. The point of Dawkins reply was that he considers it morally outrageous to even debate someone who holds such views. And it seems clear that if Dawkins' defense works, it could work against Singer, Myers, and really - Dawkins himself. But I think Torley's move here is misguided. No one - not atheists, not theists, not agnostics - thinks that Dawkins is ducking a debate with Craig due to his moral outrage about his defending the slaughter of the Amalekites. It's obvious why he's ducking - fear of another high profile loss. He doesn't have faith in his abilities or his arguments being persuasive in that forum. It's like responding to Dawkins giving an excuse of "Well, I have an appointment to get a haircut that day" and replying by conducting a survey of barber shops in the area, seeing how long a haircut takes, seeing the average wait time... Kind of pointless.nullasalus
October 26, 2011
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God explicitly told the Israelites that he was executing the Canaanites because of their wickedness, not because they were special. He never extinguished the Israelites, but he didn't hold back punishment from them either. This type of action is not an absolute moral wrong. It's wrong for us, because we cannot make such judgments or see the possible outcomes. For me to cut a person open and remove his heart is an absolute moral wrong. For a heart surgeon it isn't. It's ultimately a matter of trust. God says that he will never act unjustly. He also says that his thinking is far above our own, to the point that we can never fully understand it. I choose to trust God, but I understand the other point of view. From that point of view, killing lots of people is wrong no matter what. That's a point of view that values life, so I have to respect it even if we disagree on this particular matter.ScottAndrews2
October 26, 2011
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