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Mark Frank poses an interesting thought experiment on free will

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In a comment on kairosfocus’ latest excellent post, Does ID ASSUME “contra-causal free will” and “intelligence” (and so injects questionable “assumptions”)?, Mark Frank proposes a thought experiment in support of his view that determinism is fully compatible with free will. It goes as follows:

Start with a dog. Dogs make choices in the sense that they may accept or reject a treat, may obey or disobey an order, may chase a rabbit or not. Suppose we advance our understanding of dogs’ brains and thought processes so that a genius vet can predict with 100% accuracy how a dog will choose in any given situation given its past history and current circumstances. Surely this is conceivable? If we manage this do we now say that dogs are making real choices? If it they are real choices then this is compatibilism in action. So I guess, in these circumstances, you would say that we have shown they do not really have free will.

Now extend it to infants – say two year olds. They make choices – eat or don’t eat, cry or don’t cry, hug or don’t hug. So let’s imagine we repeat the process with them. A genius paediatrician in this case (maybe you one day!). Are the infants also lacking free will? Either compatabilism is true or they haven’t got free will.

OK. Now apply it to an adult human. If it is conceivable for a dog and an infant then surely it is conceivable for an adult. A genius psychologist observes an adult and is able to predict all their decisions and explain why – exactly how each decision is determined by their genetics, personal history and current environment (it doesn’t have to be a materialist explanation). Has that adult got free will? Either compatabilism is true or they haven’t got free will.

And finally apply to yourself. Suppose it turns out a genius psychologist has been monitoring you all your life and has been able to correctly predict all your decisions and also how the decision making process worked in detail – how your different motivations were balanced and interacted with your perceptions and memories resulting in each decision (including any dithering and worrying about whether you got it right). Would that mean you thought you had free will but actually didn’t? Either compatabilism is true or you haven’t got free will.

As my computer is currently kaput, this will be a very short post. I’d like to suggest that what Mark Frank has left out of the equation is language, the capacity for which is what differentiates us from other animals. (Human infants possess this capacity but do not yet exercise it, partly because their brains, when they are newborn, are still too immature for language production, and also because they have yet to build up a linguistic databank that would enable them to express what they want to get across.)

Language is central to human rationality because rationality is not just a matter of selecting the appropriate means to realize a desired end: it is also a critical activity, in which agents are expected to be able to justify their choices and respond to questions like “Why did you do that?” People don’t just act rationally; they give reasons for their actions. In order to do that, you need a language in which you can generate an indefinitely large number of sentences, as the range of possible situations in which you might find yourself is potentially infinite – particularly when we factor in the little complicating circumstances that may arise.

What is distinctive about human language, as opposed to animal “language,” is precisely this ability to generate an infinite number of sentences. This uniquely human ability was the subject of a recent article in the Washington Post titled, Chirps, whistles, clicks: Do any animals have a true ‘language’?, which was discussed in a recent post by News (emphases are mine – VJT):

A new study on animal calls has found that the patterns of barks, whistles, and clicks from seven different species appear to be more complex than previously thought. The researchers used mathematical tests to see how well the sequences of sounds fit to models ranging in complexity…

“We’re still a very, very long way from understanding this transition from animal communication to human language, and it’s a huge mystery at the moment,” said study author and zoologist Arik Kershenbaum, who did the work at the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis…

“What makes human language special is that there’s no finite limit as to what comes next,” he said….

But what separates language from communication? Why can’t we assume that whales, with their elaborate songs, are simply speaking “whale-ese”?

To be considered a true language, there are a few elements that are usually considered to be essential, says Kershenbaum. For one, it must be learned rather than instinctive — both whales and birds have this piece covered. For instance, killer whale calves learn a repertoire of calls from their mothers, and the sounds gradually evolve from erratic screams to adult-like pulsed calls and whistles.

What holds whales and other animals back from language is that there is a limit to what they can express. There are only so many calls that each may convey different emotions, but only we have an unlimited ability to express abstract ideas.

The problem for scientists is that no one knows how language evolved. Oddly enough, there don’t seem to be any transitional proto-languages between whale and bird songs — said to be the most sophisticated animal calls — and our own speech.

There are two conflicting theories of how language evolved in humans. The first is that human language evolved slowly and gradually, just as most traits evolved in the animal world. So perhaps it started with gestures, and then words and sentences. Or language may have started out more like bird song — with complex but meaningless sounds — and the last stage was attaching meaning to these sounds.

Reading the last paragraph in the passage quoted above brings to mind Nobel Laureate John Eccles’ derisive remarks about “promissory materialism.” The fact is that scientists haven’t got a clue how language evolved – and for a very good reason. The gap between the law-governed deterministic processes we observe in Nature and the infinite flexibility of human language is an unbridgeable one.

That is why no psychologist could ever, even in principle, predict everything that a rational adult human being will think, say and do. Language, which is fundamentally unpredictable, is part of the warp-and-woof of human life. Hence the antecedent in Mark Frank’s thought experiment – “What if a psychologist could predict every decision that you make?” – is impossible, by definition.

Back in 1957, behaviorist B. F. Skinner wrote a best-selling book with the amusing title, Verbal Behavior. I hope readers can see now why language is much more than mere behavior.

Thoughts?

Comments
Mark Frank #61
The dog is just a way to help people imagine that people might be determined (or determined + random). The next step is to ask – if you discovered your decisions were in fact predictable would say you still had free will?
If I discovered that every tiny decision I make in every situation was predicted by someone with 100% accuracy, I think there'd be a lot to deal with. The solution to this problem would be found in origins. As I explained, I was either programmed somehow, or a god created/decides every action. If I discovered that either case was true, I would know, with certainty, that I do not have free will. Thinking my actions were freely chosen would be an illusion. So, I don't agree that free will and determinism could be compatible, in reality. Yes, the illusion of each is compatible with each other. I can imagine I am free while I am, in reality determined. I can imagine I am being controlled by an external agent while I am really free. But to truly be free while having been programmed in advance for every possible action? Obviously, that's not compatible.
If your answer is “no” then the defining characteristic of free will is that it is unpredictable i.e. it is not some thing we experience personally when we make decisions. Because the experience has not changed – just the predictability.
Could you explain that further? Yes, "it is unpredictable" from outside. Of course, I can predict within myself how I will freely choose something. Yes, it's possible that everything is an illusion. It's possible that the world began to exist one minute ago. We can't prove or refute it. But I think we look for common human experience to try to make sense of things. I have no good reason to reject the idea that I freely choose and I'm not determined by an external agent in all my decisions. Obviously, my human community has always supported that with the notions of accountability, responsibility and the support to improve one's behaviors and correct oneself (and to learn and communicate and make creative decisions). We trust that we can freely learn from history and that there is a non-illusory reality. We see limits to our freedom but also recognize debts and responsibilities. I think even hardened determinists recognize the same, which argues against that point of view. But yes, this could all be an illusion. If so, then it doesn't matter much. But we live lives as if it does matter very much. Why?Silver Asiatic
September 1, 2014
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Oops again. I meant, "You can't start a thought experiment with…" I wish there was a way to edit comments for obvious errors rather than clutter up the space with corrections.JDH
September 1, 2014
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And for you nit-pickers out there. In 65 where I said, "You can't start a sentence with…" It should read, "You can't start a through experiment with…"JDH
September 1, 2014
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Mung, Thought experiments, to have any relevance to our existence in this universe, have to be constrained by the true fundamental laws of physics. ( Note: please notice that I said the "true fundamental laws of physics". It is possible that some things we have "inferred" to be laws may just be "laws" that hold in a local epoch of time and space. ) We can certainly consider in our minds, worlds where the true fundamental laws of physics are violated. But the result of such speculation will NEVER give us useful information for judging what is true in this universe.JDH
September 1, 2014
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Mark, Here is the point. 1. Our wonderful minds ( noticed I said "minds" and not brains ) can imagine a lot. We can imagine things which are logically inconsistent. 2. We can imagine things which violate laws of physics. 3. We can imagine things where we have access to infinite amounts of information simultaneously. The big and completely understandable problem is that in many people's minds statements 2 and 3 are unrelated. But they are not. QM has revealed to mankind the bizarre and unintuitive rules that knowing some pieces of information make other pieces of information unavailable. Its not that we can't measure the other piece of information. It is just not there. I admit this boggles the mind a bit. But this makes the so-called logical universe entangled with the mechanical universe. You can't start a sentence with "Suppose I know these two quantum mechanically complementary values to infinite precision." You can't do it logically. There exists no such state. Any supposition that starts like that is not about this universe. You can't know the precise value of the momentum of a particle AND also know its precise position. You can't know the exact energy at a point at infinitely small time intervals. So in the dog case, knowing the dog's brain state would be knowing all of the electrical potentials ( delta E ) at the exact same interval of time ( delta T ). This is not only not possible, such knowledge just does not exist. This knowledge can not possibly be known in this universe. Your example is therefore NOT logical and does not qualify as a valid thought experiment in this universe.JDH
September 1, 2014
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ok, so why can't a thought experiment involve a violation (or suspension) of the laws of physics. (Does Maxwell's Demon, for example?) Say I begin my thought experiment as follows. Suppose the laws of physics allow X ... (when it is well known that the laws of physics do not allow X). Will I get ridiculed off the stage for proposing such a thought experience under the logic that such a thought experiment would violate the laws of physics?Mung
September 1, 2014
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Jaceli123
This paper unlike the others shows how they can predict not only simple choices but complex ones.
Personally I don't find it at all surprising to find that some thoughts of a rational person are predictable.Mung
September 1, 2014
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drc466 @ 40:
I’m not certain that we are not reading too much into Mark’s thought experiment. In shorter form it resolves to: 1) Assume human behavior is deterministic
But why should we assume this? Even Mark is not a full blown determinist.Mung
September 1, 2014
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SA #60
Can we imagine that absolutely everything we do was programmed/determined into us at the beginning of time? Yes, I’d think so. We can imagine that some sort of god actually makes every decision for us.
This is all I need. The dog is just a way to help people imagine that people might be determined (or determined + random). The next step is to ask – if you discovered your decisions were in fact predictable would say you still had free will? If your answer is “yes” then determinism is compatible with free will as it is generally understood and experienced. If your answer is “no” then the defining characteristic of free will is that it is unpredictable i.e. it is not some thing we experience personally when we make decisions. Because the experience has not changed – just the predictability. Mark Frank
September 1, 2014
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Interesting thought experiment by Mark Frank, if I understand it correctly. We imagine a genius who can "predict with 100% accuracy how a dog will choose in any given situation given its past history and current circumstances. Surely this is conceivable?" We might consider that a dog makes a decision here and one there. To eat this food, chase the rabbit or just sit down. But there's a lot more. The genius can predict, with 100% accuracy, every decision ... how many times the dog wags its tail, what it will sniff and when, what precise path its paws will take when running with another dog, which way it will move its head to see things ... etc. Is that conceivable? I would say "yes" if a dog could be reduced to a master set of programming codes. That's the materialist/evolutionary view. So, of the millions of decisions the dog makes each day in body movements, all of them should be predictable. So, I first wonder why we can't do that. If we correctly predict, with 100% accuracy, every movement of one dog (we cracked the dog-behavior-programming code), we would then be able to predict the behavior of every dog, in every situation on planet earth. Conceivable? For me, "no". I don't think it can be done, outside of the problems in physics mentioned above. We might say that a dog responds randomly and doesn't make decisions on those smaller matters. Ok, but if so, then that's a major difference between dog and human being. We do actually make small decisions on how to move our bodies, what to look at and how to respond to stimuli (excepting reflex reactions). A lot of these are built on habit, but we still decide. Choosing against in-grained habits is a sign of free will. That's how we overcome harmful addictions. Can we imagine that absolutely everything we do was programmed/determined into us at the beginning of time? Yes, I'd think so. We can imagine that some sort of god actually makes every decision for us. We can also imagine that we freely decided every single response and decision we ever made - perhaps in a previous life we programmed our own behavior and now we're just living it out. The point here, from my view ... it's interesting to imagine certain things but in this case it's more than seems a reasonable scenario.Silver Asiatic
September 1, 2014
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Dionisio: Strings theory and multiverse theory? Maybe wishful inferential cognition. :) Regulatory procedures? There is much we still have to infer there!gpuccio
September 1, 2014
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gpuccio,
The point with deductive reasoning is that it is very strong (provided that we accept the rules of logic, and I have nothing against that) and has nothing to do with external empirical reality. It lives on its own rules. The problem, on the other hand, is that it does not really add anything to our knowledge: it just makes explicit what is implicit in the premises (which is not at all a small accomplishment). Inferential cognition, instead, is very different. It does add to our knowledge, but it is never so strong and beyond doubt as deductive knowledge. Empirical science is essentially about inferential cognition, but it makes essential use of deductive knowledge and of the rules of logic in building hypotheses and verifying their consistency. Indeed, it is a true and amazing mystery that mathematics, the pure innate form of deductive cognition, which has in itself no relationship with empirical reality (in the sense that it is not derived by it: OK, I know, I am all for the neoplatonic theory of mathematics!), still is so powerful in explaining empirical reality. Quantum theory is a very good example; a theory which would never exist without refined mathematical tools, many of them created by human mind without any idea that they would be so useful in a branch of physics (for example, complex numbers), is probably the most successful explanatory theory of all times. That is, in itself, a problem that requires reflection and, possibly, explanation.
Are strings theory and multiverse theory also examples of inferential cognition or examples of wishful thinking? What about the regulatory procedures in biological systems?Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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#51 gpuccio
The point with deductive reasoning is that it is very strong (provided that we accept the rules of logic, and I have nothing against that) and has nothing to do with external empirical reality. It lives on its own rules. The problem, on the other hand, is that it does not really add anything to our knowledge: it just makes explicit what is implicit in the premises (which is not at all a small accomplishment). Inferential cognition, instead, is very different. It does add to our knowledge, but it is never so strong and beyond doubt as deductive knowledge. Empirical science is essentially about inferential cognition, but it makes essential use of deductive knowledge and of the rules of logic in building hypotheses and verifying their consistency. Indeed, it is a true and amazing mystery that mathematics, the pure innate form of deductive cognition, which has in itself no relationship with empirical reality (in the sense that it is not derived by it: OK, I know, I am all for the neoplatonic theory of mathematics!), still is so powerful in explaining empirical reality. Quantum theory is a very good example; a theory which would never exist without refined mathematical tools, many of them created by human mind without any idea that they would be so useful in a branch of physics (for example, complex numbers), is probably the most successful explanatory theory of all times. That is, in itself, a problem that requires reflection and, possibly, explanation.
Agree. Very insightful commentary. Thank you. :) Glad to see my irrelevant joke on black swans kind of provoked your interesting comments, which I was able to understand well. Hopefully others will appreciate what you wrote as well (that's why I quoted it again at the beginning of this post). :)Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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gpuccio, Yes, I noticed in #51 you used the occasion for additional comments on the interesting subject you folks are discussing here, which -as I mentioned to Mark- is high above my knowledge level and capacity to discuss it. Well done! Feel free to correct me anytime you notice I misunderstood something in the discussions. Thank you! :)Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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Dionisio I understand (now). e-mails and comments like these are so easily misunderstood.Mark Frank
September 1, 2014
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#50 Mark Frank
#49 Dionisio I don’t see the relevance of your comment. Of course there are black swans. It remains logically impossible that all swans are white and there is a black swan.
My comment was intended for a joke (see post #52). Hence it has no serious relevance in your discussion with GP, KF, VJT, JDH (on #45 Andre called him JHD), and others. This subject is high up there above my pay grade, therefore I can only get involved with irrelevant jokes related to a word or statement I may find interesting ;-) Actually, at the end of the offending post #49 you may see the winking face ;-) BTW, talking about swans, I'm trying to play Tchaikovsky's music for the 'Swan Lake' to a bunch of swans swimming in a nearby lake to see what choreography they would dance to ;-)Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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Dionisio: Yes, I supposed you were joking, and I have appreciated the quote of the movie. However, that was too good an occasion for some remarks about deductive reasoning! :)gpuccio
September 1, 2014
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#51 gpuccio Yes, it's about the two statements together, but I found his reference to black swans very interesting, so I decided to joke about that particular subject ;-) That's why I included the official poster of a movie that was named exactly that way, although it's not a real swan. That was done purposely to give a hint that I was joking ;-) Now, looking back with hindsight, I see it could have helped if I labeled my post 'OT'. Thank you. :)Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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Dionisio: "Sci-Fi hogwash" has its merits, too! :) I suppose that what Mark means is that the two statements: a) All swans are white and b) There are black swans are not logically compatible. IOWs, if we accept non contradiction and the basic principles of logic, if one is true that implies that the other is false. The point with deductive reasoning is that it is very strong (provided that we accept the rules of logic, and I have nothing against that) and has nothing to do with external empirical reality. It lives on its own rules. The problem, on the other hand, is hat it does not really add anything to our knowledge: it just makes explicit what is implicit in the premises (which is not at all a small accomplishment). Inferential cognition, instead, is very different. It does add to our knowledge, but it is never so strong and beyond doubt as deductive knowledge. Empirical science is essentially about inferential cognition, but is makes essential use of deductive knowledge and of the rules of logic in building hypotheses and verifying their consistency. Indeed, it is a true and amazing mystery that mathematics, the pure innate form of deductive cognition, which has in itself no relationship with empirical reality (in the sense that it is not derived by it: OK, I know, I am all for the neoplatonic theory of mathematics!), still is so powerful in explaining empirical reality. Quantum theory is a very good example; a theory which would never exist without refined mathematical tools, many of them created by human mind without any idea that they would be so useful in a branch of physics (for example, complex numbers), is probably the most successful explanatory theory of all times. That is, in itself, a problem that requires reflection and, possibly, explanation.gpuccio
September 1, 2014
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#49 Dionisio I don't see the relevance of your comment. Of course there are black swans. It remains logically impossible that all swans are white and there is a black swan.Mark Frank
September 1, 2014
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#46
One is logically impossible: it is logically impossible that all swans are white and there is a black swan. This is impossible whatever the laws of physics.
Are you sure? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_Swan_poster.jpg http://wallpaperswiki.com/wallpapers/2012/10/Black-Swan-Lake-1050x1680.jpg ;-)Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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gpuccio @ 43 (c)
strong AI theory (the idea that consciousness should be an emergent property of the complexity of the software) is a complete empirical failure.
That's an elegantly refined way to describe it. I'd rather call it Sci-Fi hogwash. ;-) Although we have to admit it's been a very profitable ($$$) idea for its proponents. It sells presentations, books, films, videos.Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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MF: JDH is right, the process state is sensitively dependent on initial and intervening conditions, is highly non-linear and is deeply quantum with info access and processing lags on the order of the relevant response times or worse. This is similar tot he old socialist central planing assumption that material knowledge and processing can be centralised to plan an economy. Failed, for much the same reason, and for the even more directly relevant reason that it depends on the imponderable, human -- not merely canine -- responsibility, understanding and freedom of action. But then, you deny that this exists -- never mind the clever disguise word, compatibilism. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2014
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JDH I am sorry if my response appeared smug. I did not mean to give offence. I have a lot to do and didn’t have time for a long response. I will spend a bit more time on different types of impossibility. I agree that there are two types of impossibility: 1. We do not have the technology to do something that would be possible if we had better, and faster technology. 2. The problem is really impossible because it violates a basic principle of physics. However, there are other types of impossibility (in fact there are infinitely many – as I have said many time every modal statement carries an implicit or explicit condition). One is logically impossible: it is logically impossible that all swans are white and there is a black swan. This is impossible whatever the laws of physics. One way to prove something is logically possible is to imagine it happening. There is no doubt we can imagine a vet making accurate predictions of a dog’s decision. My thought experiment is not an empirical experiment into what is possible according to the laws of physics. It is an investigation into what we mean by free will and is it compatible with determinism plus a random element. It is quite reasonable to investigate this by asking how we would react to situations that are logically possible although physically impossible. (I am also not convinced that the vet story is impossible according to the laws of physics - but I do not want this response to get too long).Mark Frank
September 1, 2014
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JHD I really liked your response, I hope Mark will be able to man-up on this, but I won't bet my underpants on it..... What I have learned since becoming a believer is that in my days as an atheist I did not think about these things long enough so it was really easy to dismiss logic and rationality. I find the idea that atheists are rational people the funniest thing ever and here is why; They use intentional states to deny that intentional states even exist! Best comedy ever is a rambling atheist!Andre
September 1, 2014
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Mark, Do you not understand that what you propose is NOT logically possible? Please excuse my tone but I am quite irritated with the smugness of your last post. I will do my best to remain civil. After all, my real hope is that you will abandon your current contradictory beliefs and get on with the search for God. I hope you find Him before it is too late. Once again you provide me with the exact counter argument needed. As a physicist by training I understand there are two different kind of problems that are talked about as "not possible". 1. We do not have the technology to do something that would be possible if we had better, and faster technology. 2. The problem is really impossible because it violates a basic principle of physics. Examples are: 1. Getting a manned rocket to travel to the moon and back. Before the 1960's this was deemed impossible because it was a "we don't have the technology yet problem." 2. Measuring something with greater precision that the quantum limit. "This is a violation of physics problem." Google earth was certainly considered impossible 200 years ago because no one could get to a position above the earth, no one could take the photographs, and no one had the ability to compress and send those photographs to your computer. But there is one thing you need to recognize about Google earth. It is not about how areas of the planet are going to look in the future. It is about how some things looked in the past. Technology and investment of money can always keep cutting down on the difference ( delta t ) between the time that the picture is shot, and the time it gets to my screen, but Google earth's data will ALWAYS be about the past - not about the present or the future. In the delta t that it takes for the shot to get from the satellite to my computer, no one cares that the actual state of the earth has changed. Google earth is not about predicting the future, it is about how things looked a while ago. So why do I say your genius vet story is NOT logically possible. Because you MUST care about the inherently unmeasurable changes that occur in the delta t between the time you gather your data and the time of the dog's decision. No matter how good your data is, no matter how fast your computers are, the data can only be gathered and analyzed with transit times on the same order as how the dog's bodily processes happen. In other words,you have to examine all the information in the dog's state which is constantly changing and you have to do this with equipment that can NOT run faster than the time that the dog's bodily processes change. There is ALWAYS the possibility of a significant change of state occurring between the time you start gathering data and the time the dog makes the decision. Quantum mechanics confirms this is not about getting better and better measurements. This is the fact that chemistry in the body relies on events which must take place in finite amounts of time according to the principles of QM. The problem is that your proposal violates known principles of physics. 1. You can not measure anything to precision less than the quantum limit. 2. You can't gather the data and analyze it ( using essentially chemical/electrical processes which all occur on the same time scale as the chemical/electrical processes which define the dog's state) without the possibility of a significant change occurring in the state of the dog between the time you start gathering data, and the time that the dog makes his decision. Let me stress that this is not about the limits on your technology. This is about the limits of measuring anything that the reality of quantum mechanics places on your data gathering instruments and data analysis machinery. The data gathering and analysis machinery must be physical objects. Your assumption of materialism demands it. They must be subject to quantum limits. Therefore there is no way even given maximum computing power you could measure the state of the dog well enough to make a prediction. Do you not understand any of the ramifications of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle? Before the discovery of QM it was possible for an educated man to think, that if we just measure everything to infinite precision, we can effectively predict everything that will happen in the future. Since QM it is impossible for an educated man to believe this is true. Your proposal depends on violating the principles of physics. It is not logically possible.JDH
September 1, 2014
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Acartia_bogart #31: My approach is very simple: a) Consciousness and its processes, including cognition, feeling, purpose and free will, are part of our basic observations of reality. Indeed, they are the fundamental part, on which all that we call "reality" (including cognition and ordered representation of the "objective world) are built. b) Therefore, empirical reality is made of two kinds of observed things: subjective processes and the reconstruction of an objective worlds. c) Any assumption of a higher "reality" of the so called "objective world" versus the subjective processes is unwarranted and unsupported both by reason and by facts. IOWs, the widespread idea that consciousness and its processes can and should be explained in terms of arrangements of physical objects is in itself a philosophy, not a scientific idea. It is also, IMO, a very bad philosophy, with no internal consistency. There is also no empirical support to it, IOWs strong AI theory (the idea that consciousness should be an emergent property of the complexity of the software) is a complete empirical failure. d) Given those premises, there is only one way to build a reliable map of reality which can work and try to explain scientifically what we observe: it is to accept consciousness and its processes as they are observed in ourselves (and inferred in other people) as part of our map, trying to understand and describe the observed dynamics in conscious processes and to understand and describe how they interact with the so called objective world of physical objects. e) That includes studying the consciousness-matter interface for what it empirically is (an interface), and not with the unwarranted assumption that consciousness arises from matter. f) That includes defining design for what it is (a process where conscious representations of form are purposefully outputted to matter), and not trying to elude that simple problem only because it is forbidden to make reference to consciousness as an observed fact. g) That includes observing how consciousness and design are objectively related to outputs (like CSI/dFSCI) which are never observed in any other context. h) That includes trying to build a complete scientific map of empirical (observed) reality. Which is, IMO, the only unbiased approach to science.gpuccio
September 1, 2014
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JDH You are welcome to chuckle as long as you like. I intended conceivable in the first sense (i.e. logically possible). That is all that is necessary for my argument. You are a brave man to predict what is practically impossible. Two hundred years ago Google Earth would have been considered conceivable but practically quite absurdly impossible.Mark Frank
August 31, 2014
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Hey guys one thing to add to the discussion, this paper was written by John-Dylan Haynes who did the 7 second prediction in a MRI. This paper unlike the others shows how they can predict not only simple choices but complex ones. ----------------------------------------------- Abstract: Imagine you are standing at a street with heavy traffic watching someone on the other side of the road. Do you think your brain is implicitly registering your willingness to buy any of the cars passing by outside your focus of attention? To address this question, we measured brain responses to consumer products (cars) in two experimental groups using functional magnetic resonance imaging. Participants in the first group (high attention) were instructed to closely attend to the products and to rate their attractiveness. Participants in the second group (low attention) were distracted from products and their attention was directed elsewhere. After scanning, participants were asked to state their willingness to buy each product. During the acquisition of neural data, participants were not aware that consumer choices regarding these cars would subsequently be required. Multivariate decoding was then applied to assess the choice-related predictive information encoded in the brain during product exposure in both conditions. Distributed activation patterns in the insula and the medial prefrontal cortex were found to reliably encode subsequent choices in both the high and the low attention group. Importantly, consumer choices could be predicted equally well in the low attention as in the high attention group. This suggests that neural evaluation of products and associated choice-related processing does not necessarily depend on attentional processing of available items. Overall, the present findings emphasize the potential of implicit, automatic processes in guiding even important and complex decisions. Source: http://m.jneurosci.org/content/30/23/8024.longJaceli123
August 31, 2014
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I'm not certain that we are not reading too much into Mark's thought experiment. In shorter form it resolves to: 1) Assume human behavior is deterministic 2) Either free will is compatible with determinism, or you don't have free will. That's it. Most of us don't accept #1, so there's not a lot left to talk about.drc466
August 31, 2014
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