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Materialist Poofery

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From time to time we see materialists raising the “poof objection” against ID. The poof objection goes something like this: An ID theorist claims that a given organic system (the bacterial flagellum perhaps) is irreducibly complex or that it displays functional complex specified information. In a sneering and condescending tone the materialist dismisses the claim, saying something like “Your claim amounts to nothing more than ‘Poof! the designer did it.’”

I have always thought the poof objection coming from a materialist is particularly ironic, because materialists have “poofery” built into their science at a very basic level. Of course, they don’t use the term “poof.” They use a functional synonym of poof – the word “emergent.”

What do I mean? Consider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain. Obviously, this is not so easy for the materialist who, by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain. What do they do? They say the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain. Huh? Wazzat? That means that the brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to its individual components. The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.

And what evidence do we have that “emergence” is a real phenomenon? Absolutely none. Emergence is materialist poofery. Take the mind-brain problem again. The materialist knows that his claim that the mind does not exist is patently absurd. Yet, given his premises it simply cannot exist. So what is a materialist to do? Easy. Poof – the mind is an emergent property of the brain system that otherwise cannot be accounted for on materialist grounds.

Comments
Nakashima is no longer with us.Barry Arrington
April 25, 2009
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Appealing to wetness as the "nature" of water puts science exactly where it was with Book II of Aristotle's Physics.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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StephenB
It is part of water’s nature to be wet under the right conditions. Everything has a nature, and everything functions according to its nature
Perhaps it is the "nature" of complex physical objects, organized in the right way, to be conscious. Objects like brains.Diffaxial
April 25, 2009
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John @ 103 I do sincere apologize. I suffer from an extremely rare genetic disorder (although oddly it is found more in the working classes), called pompoustropism. Sometimes it causes me to say or write down what I'm actually thinking. Again, I apologize.JTaylor
April 25, 2009
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In #101 stephenB asserts: "Darwinists have been playing this same type of game with Modern Evolutionary Synthesis. Emergence is the default position, covering up for all the inadequacies of the neo-Darwinian paradigm." Actually, this is a false statement. With the notable exception of Ernst Mayr, virtually all of the founders of the "modern evolutionary synthesis" were either completely silent on the issue of emergent properties, or asserted that such properties did not exist. This is still the position of the great majority of evolutionary biologists: that talking about "emergence" and "emergent properties" adds nothing to our ability to investigate how biological systems work. The same is the case for the concept of purpose. It is very common for people to explain the existence of some biological property by saying it is "for" something (i.e. it exists "in order to" something). For example, a very common statement about mammals is "female" mammals have mammary glands "in order to" feed their offspring (i.e. that's what mammary glands are "for"). However, making a statement like this does not help in the slightest in our understanding of what mammary glands are (i.e. it does not describe them), nor does it help in understanding how mammary glands work (i.e. it does not help in their analysis), nor does it help in understanding how mammary glands came (and come) to be (i.e. it does not help in explaining their origin or development). This is why evolutionary biologists generally do not explain the origin and development of biological objects and processes using purpose. It isn't necessary for such an explanation, and so we generally leave it out. Note that leaving out purpose is absolutely no "proof" (nor "poof") for the existence or non-existence of purpose. Indeed, accomplishing this is a surprisingly difficult thing to do, assuming that one is limited to empirical tests of the hypothesis that purpose either exists or doesn't.Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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They’re engineers, computer programmers, and medical doctors. IOW, people grounded in reality who know the difference between theoretical possibilities and actual ones. Good to see you back, Allen.tribune7
April 25, 2009
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It is part of water's nature to be wet under the right conditions. Everything has a nature, and everything functions according to its nature. Hurricanes and tornados also have natures. If you set up exactly the same atmospheric conditions time after time, you will get exactly the same result time after time. The laws of cause and effect are always in play. That is why we can know the "ideal" conditions for a hurricane of a tornado to develop, and develop seems like the right word to me. I submit that if we knew all the causal vectors and how they interact, we could predict the outcome of any weather event. Meteorologists don't do too bad as it is.StephenB
April 25, 2009
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JTaylor in #57 I see you had to insult me after I had left. I am a practicing scientist and have been all my adult life. Everyone here knows everything about me. I have no secrets. I don't even know who you are or what you are except what you have made obvious here, which is that you are a crass cowardly nothing like most of the wannabe, mightabeens participating in this insane Tower of Babel. If you weren't a coward by definition you would be proud to display your credentials, your publications and what you do for a living as I have always done. You wouldn't dream of doing that here and I wouldn't believe anything you might say now anyway. You are a typical garden variety malcontent busybody who probably never had an original idea in his entire life. You sure haven't displayed one here. You are no better than Falan Ox, another "prescribed loser." Uncommon Descent is crawling with them. You should feel right at home here. Now if want more of the same, smart off again and I will be happy to satisfy your masochistic tendencies. "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert EinsteinJohnADavison
April 25, 2009
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StephenB:
When Sulphuric acid and water meet, the solution starts crackling and popping, but that doesn’t mean that the popping “emerged,” it means both agents were designed such that when they meet under the right circumstances, they act that way. If two Alka Seltzer tablets start fizzing in water, the fizz didn’t emerge; it was supposed to act that way, and its causes can be traced either to a physical or a designed cause.
The problem with this illustration is that the reaction that ensues when sulphuric acid and water meets is entirely predictable from the characteristics of the individual compounds, as modeled by physical chemistry. Had we just now encountered our first examples of water and sulphuric acid, and been supplied information regarding their chemical compositions, the reaction that ensues and the energy released upon their combination is precisely predictable. Properties described as "emergent" (such as the wetness of water) are typically not viewed as predictable in this way.Diffaxial
April 25, 2009
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----B L Harville: "You’re engaging in the practice of quote mining @96." Are you saying that I quoted Allen out of context? I picked the one paragraph that best summarized his position. ----B L Harville: "In other words, in this instance of emergence we are not saying we have explained consciousness we are saying that at this point in our understanding it appears that mind emerges from neuronal activity but more work needs to be done." Well, not exactly. Your side says, "let's assume emergence for now, and if nothing better comes along, we will keep that explanation." We may never have a scientific explanation for the origin of minds. Indeed, most in your camp reduce the mind to little more than an extension of the brain anyway. Darwinists have been playing this same type of game with Modern Evolutionary Synthesis. Emergence is the default position, covering up for all the inadequacies of the neo-Darwinian paradigm. In any case, the emerging mind theory "appears" that way, as you say, only to those who assume emergence is that apriori default position. It would not appear that way to neuroscientist Mario Beauregard, because that is not his default position. World views affect science more than you think, which is why ID recommends following the evidence wherever it leads----even if it shakes up your world view. ----" We will not remain satisfied with what we know now unlike supernaturalists who are perfectly satisfied saying god-did-it( or the-intelligent-designer(s)-did-it.)" As I have already written, neither design theorists or emergent theorists should be satisfied with the explanation. The so-called God-of-the-gaps argument is no less edifying than a poof-of-the-gaps argument.StephenB
April 25, 2009
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ScottAndrews:
How is the material brain/immaterial mind issue related to ID?
IDists will strenuously deny this but they oppose evolution because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Notice how much discussion there is about religion on this sight and how immoral atheists are alleged to be and how belief in evolution leads to holocausts and all sorts of other evil things. But evolution is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to science that conflicts with religious belief. Brain science is a surging area of research. And since religious people like to believe that their mind is a magical thing separate from their brain you can expect to see a lot more opposition in the future from IDists and other creationists.B L Harville
April 25, 2009
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I've followed this for a while, and I have an admittedly ignorant question. It is an honest one, though: How is the material brain/immaterial mind issue related to ID? If the mind was only a physical product of a physical organ, would that invalidate ID or support Darwinism? This sounds really stupid, but when I think it seems to come from between my ears and behind my eyes.ScottAndrews
April 25, 2009
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StephenB, You're engaging in the practice of quote mining @96. Later in that post Allen MacNeill continued:
Ergo, when we say that consciousness is an “emergent” property of brain organization and function, we are simply referring to our observation that consciousness is correlated with a particular level of nervous system organization, but we have not explained how this has happened.
In other words, in this instance of emergence we are not saying we have explained consciousness we are saying that at this point in our understanding it appears that mind emerges from neuronal activity but more work needs to be done. We will not remain satisfied with what we know now unlike supernaturalists who are perfectly satisfied saying god-did-it( or the-intelligent-designer(s)-did-it.)B L Harville
April 25, 2009
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Mr Arrington, JTaylor, re your [47]. In my [39] I demonstrate that explaining the existence of the mind is impossible even in principle for the materialist but not for the ID theorist. You do not offer even a scintilla of a rebuttal to that claim. Instead, you change the subject. Is that all you’ve got? Can I conclude from your silence regarding the basic premise of the original post and your attempt to change the subject, that you’ve got nothing to say, that you’ve been struck dumb by the scintillating brilliance of my reasoning [it’s a joke, lighten up will ya]? Thank you for making your sense of humor clearer to me. I now understand that your previous closed comment post declaring victory over dumbstruck materialists was meant to be humor, or perhaps 'street theater'. I know a joke loses something if it has to be explained, but do I now understand you correctly?Nakashima
April 25, 2009
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----Allen: "At every one of these levels of organization (and at multiple points within them as well), there are aggregates of the components of those levels (and lower levels) that interact in such a way as to produce properties that are not “reducible” to the properties at other levels." But that is precisely what all the fuss is about. Did it emerge or did a designer set it up that way? If it is the latter, then the phenonenon is "reduced," so to speak, to the phycial causes and the designers plan. In either case, emergence or design, the explanation is incomplete; more information is needed. When Sulphuric acid and water meet, the solution starts crackling and popping, but that doesn't mean that the popping "emerged," it means both agents were designed such that when they meet under the right circumstances, they act that way. If two Alka Seltzer tablets start fizzing in water, the fizz didn't emerge; it was supposed to act that way, and its causes can be traced either to a physical or a designed cause. So we shouldn't say that those who disagree with emergent thinking are uneducated in science. It is not the level of knowledge one has about science that causes him to affirm "emergence" and negate "design." It is rather the philosophy of science that shapes his thinking.StephenB
April 25, 2009
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The OP does not make a careful distinction between using 'emergent' as an adjective to describe a property (such as temperature), and 'emergence' as a noun meant to be a causal explanation. There is plenty of woo-peddling around 'emergence'. Replacing 'God' with 'emergence' in a sentence such as 'God causes the mind.' is merely New Age fuzziness. Reification is not explanation.Nakashima
April 25, 2009
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Barry Arrington:
The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.
I'm curious where you got this from. Also:
Conclusion: When it comes to explaining the mind, materialism is a dead end. We may someday understand how the mind came about, but only under a design paradigm.
Can you give us an example from the history of science of when some phenomenon of nature has been explained by the "design paradigm".B L Harville
April 25, 2009
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In #88 hazel observes:
"As in so many discussions, I find that we wind up arguing against simplistic caricatures of what science really is all about. It’s discouraging."
I agree. However, it's not really surprising, when one considers that the "regulars" here defending ID are neither trained in any of the empirical sciences, nor aware of most of its dimensions and traditions. This is also why the majority of the soi dissant "scientists" who have signed the Discovery Institute's notorious list of "scientists" who disagree with evolution aren't empirical scientists. They're engineers, computer programmers, and medical doctors. As to the latter, I was married to a medical doctor for almost twenty years and got to know many of her colleagues quite well. Many of them were very bright, very dedicated professionals, but very few of them had any real understanding of the empirical sciences in general, and evolutionary biology in particular. No, I wouldn't like to have an evolutionary biologist cut out my appendix, but by the same reasoning I wouldn't necessarily take a surgeon's opinion of what constitutes a valid science as representing what the practitioners of science take it to be.Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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Science actually points to a transcendent "mind" behind the material universe: 1.Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event ----- 2. Materialism predicted that time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation - Time was created in Big Bang ----------- 3. Materialism predicted that space was infinite in all directions, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang --------------- 4. Materialism predicted that at the base of this material reality would a solid indestructible material particle that rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted that the basis of this "material reality" was created by a being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our material reality that blatantly defies our concepts of time and space --------------- 5. Materialism predicted that the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted that God is eternal and is thus outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light ---------------- 6. Materialism predicted that the universe did not have life in mind and that life is ultimately "an accident" of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every universal constant that scientists can measure is exquisitely finely-tuned for life to exist in this universe. ----------------- 7. Materialism predicted that complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted that this Earth is unique in this universe ------ Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters that enable complex life to be possible on earth reveals that the earth is extremely unique in its ability to support complex life in this universe. (Rare Earth; Brownlee, Privileged Planet; Gonzalez) ....as well if we look for "transcendent truth" we find what is actually controlling the universe. Please bear out my essay: ---------- What Is Truth? --------- To varying degrees everyone looks for truth. A few people have traveled to distant lands seeking gurus in their quest to find "Truth". People are happy when they discover a new truth into the mysteries of life. People who have deep insights into the truth of how things actually work are considered wise. In the bible Jesus says "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." So, since truth is considered such a good thing, let us look for truth in a common object; a simple rock. Few people would try to argue that a rock is not real. Someone who would argue that it is not real could bang his head on the rock until he was satisfied the rock is real. A blind man in a darkened cave would feel the rock hitting his head just as well as a sighted man who saw the rock coming. The rock is real and its reality is not dependent on our observation, contrary to the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (Anton Zeilinger). Having stated the obvious lets look at what the rock is actually made of.A rock is composed of three basic ingredients; energy, force and truth. From Einstein's famous equation (e=mc2) we know that all matter (solids, liquids and gases) of the universe is ultimately made up of energy and therefore the entire rock can "theoretically" be reduced to energy. This energy is "woven" by various complex, unchanging, universal forces into the atoms of the rock. The amount of energy woven by these complex interactions of various, unchanging, universal forces into the rock is tremendous. This tremendous energy that is in the rock is clearly demonstrated by the detonation of nuclear bombs. This woven energy is found in each and every individual "particle/wave" of every atom in the trillions upon trillions of atoms in the rock. While energy can be said to be what gives "substance" of the rock, energy in and of itself is not a "solid" entity. Thus, the unchanging, transcendent, universal constants/forces can be said to be what actually gives the rock its physicality of being solid; Gives the rock "solidness even though constants/forces are turning out to be transcendent of any known material/energy basis. In fact transcendent universal constants/forces can be said to be the ONLY solid, uncompromising "thing" in the rock. Yet there is another ingredient which went into making the rock that is often neglected to be looked at as a "real" component of the rock. It is the transcendent and spiritual component of truth. If truth did not exist the rock would not exist. This is as obvious as the fact that the rock would not exist if energy and/or unchanging force did not exist. It is the truth in and of the logical laws of the unchanging forces of the universal constants that govern the energy that enable the rock to be a rock in the first place. Is truth independent and dominant of the energy and force? Yes of course, there are many philosophical truths that are not dependent on energy or force for them to still be true. Yet energy and unchanging force are precisely subject to what the "truth" tells them they can and cannot do (Anthropic Principle). To put it another way, the rock cannot exist without truth yet truth can exist without the rock. Energy and force must obey the truth that is above them or else the rock can't possibly exist. Since truth apparently dictates what energy and/or unchanging force can or cannot do in order that life may exist in this universe, it follows that truth dominates energy and force (multi-verse not withstanding). Energy and force do not dominate truth. It is also obvious that if all energy and/or force stopped existing in this universe, the truth that ruled the energy and force in the rock would still be logically true. Thus, truth can be said to be eternal, or timeless in nature. It is also obvious that truth is omnipresent. That is to say, the truth that is in the rock on this world is the same truth that is in a rock on the other side of the universe on another world. Thus, truth is present everywhere at all times in this universe (Indeed, Science would be extremely difficult, to put it mildly, if this uniformity of truth were not so). It has also been scientifically proven, by quantum non-locality, that whenever something becomes physically "real" (wave collapse of entangled electron, photon) in any part of the universe, this "truth" is instantaneously communicated anywhere/everywhere in the universe to its corresponding "particle". Thus, truth is "aware" of everything that goes on in the universe instantaneously. This universal awareness of transcendent truth also gives truth the vital characteristic of being omniscient (All knowing). This instantaneous communication of truth to all points in the universe also happens to defy the speed of light; a "truth" that energy and even the force of gravity happen to be subject to (I believe all fundamental forces are shown to be subject to this "truth' of the speed of light). This scientific proof of quantum non-locality also proves that truth is not a "passive" component of this universe. Truth is actually scientifically demonstrated, by quantum non-locality and quantum teleportation, to be the "active" dominant component of this universe. Thus, truth is not a passive set of rules written on a sheet of paper somewhere. Truth is the "living governor" of this universe that has dominion over all other components of this universe and is not bound by any of the laws that "truth" has subjected all the other components of the universe to. Truth is in fact a tangible entity that enables and dictates our reality in this universe to exist in a overarching non-chaotic form so as to enable life to exist (Anthropic Principle). Thus eternal transcendent truth has demonstrated foresight and purpose in this temporal universe and as such can be said to be "alive" from the fact that a "decision" had to be made from the timeless/spaceless dimension that truth inhabits in order for this temporal reality to be real in the first place. i.e. the transcendent embodiment of all truth is a major characteristic of the necessary Being or "uncaused-cause", which is elucidated in philosophy, that created all reality. The fact that quantum teleportation shows an exact "specified dominion" of energy by "a truth" satisfies a major requirement for the entity needed to explain the "missing Dark Matter" in that the needed explanation would have to dominate energy in just such a fashion as is demonstrated by teleportation. The fact that quantum entanglement shows a "coherent long-range universal" control of energy, by "a truth", satisfies a major requirement for the "Dark Energy" entity which must explain why the universe is expanding at such a finely-tuned degree. Thus the "transcendent eternal truth" provides a coherent picture that could possibly unify all of physics upon further elucidation. Well, lets see what we have so far; Truth is eternal (it has always existed and will always exist); Truth is omnipresent (it is present everywhere in the universe at all times); Truth is omnipotent (it has dominion over everything else in the universe, yet is not subject to any physical laws); Truth has a vital characteristic of omniscience (it is aware of everything that is happening everywhere in the universe); Truth is active (it is aware of everything that is happening and instantaneously makes appropriate adjustments); and Truth is alive (it has created a temporal universe from a reality not subject to any physical laws of time, for the express purpose of creating life; Anthropic Principle) Surprisingly, being eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, active and alive are the foundational characteristics that are used by theologians to describe God. Thus, logically speaking, spiritual/transcendent truth emanates directly from God. So in answer to our question "What is Truth?" we can answer that truth comes from, or is, God as far as the scientific method is concerned. To bring this into the focus of the Christian perspective, Jesus says that He is "The Truth". In regards to what is currently revealed in our scientific knowledge, this is a VERY, VERY fantastic claim! If Jesus is speaking the truth, which I believe He is from the personal miracles I've seen in my own life, then by the rules of logic this makes Jesus exactly equivalent to God Almighty as far as this universe is concerned. Well,,, Is Jesus the author of this universe and all life in it??? Though this is somewhat difficult to bear out scientifically, Personally I believe He is, since all the foundational truths in what could be termed the "transcendent" philosophy of human character and behavior (i.e.Love your neighbor as yourself, Don't bear false witness etc..etc..), have found their ultimate authority and expression in Jesus Christ. i.e. by his "sinless life" and by his resurrection from the dead he has indeed testified to truth's primacy and authority over the material realm. Plus, I find it extremely poetic that Jesus has overcome death and entropy by leading a sinless, decay-free, life and which was testified to by his resurrection from the dead by the Shroud. (of note: entropy is the law of universal decay; it is also known as the second law of thermodynamics) I also find it extremely satisfying and poetic that we too can escape death by accepting this "transcendent eternal truth" of Jesus atoning sacrifice for us into our hearts. of note: (In regards to the argument that some universal constants "may change" over time, It should be noted that the four primary forces/constants of the universe are said to be "mediated at the speed of light" by massless "mediator bosons". And thus, since time as we know it comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, this gives the universal constants the characteristic of being timeless, and thus unchanging, as far as the mass/matter of this universe is concerned. i.e. We should never expect something that is "timeless" to ever change in regards to the mass/matter of this universe which is itself subject to time and is thus obviously subject to change. Many interesting insights. Please use paragraphs in the future. In its original form, your work was all but unreadable.bornagain77
April 25, 2009
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In #83 David Kellogg points out:
"StephenB, Barry, and kairosfocus are implicitly taking the side of reductionism"
No, they're explicitly taking the side of reductionism, as they do in virtually all other discussions on this website. However, their version of reductionism is fundamentally different than the one usually applied to the empirical sciences. Their version of reductionism is essentially this:
"There is one and only one absolute Truth, of which God is the one and only Author".
All observations, all discoveries, all ideas, all arguments, indeed all of human thought and intellectual aspirations reduce to that simple declarative, unsupported assertion. Ergo, further observations, discoveries, ideas, arguments, thoughts and any other form of intellectual aspirations are frivolous, pointless, and potentially dangerous.Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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As in so many discussions, I find that we wind up arguing against simplistic caricatures of what science really is all about. It's discouraging.hazel
April 25, 2009
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David:
An interesting feature of this discussion is that advocates of emergence in cognitive science are typically arguing against strong reductionists. On this thread, StephenB, Barry, and kairosfocus are implicitly taking the side of reductionism: that if it ain’t reductionist, it ain’t science.
This peculiarity is also true of their understanding of culture and cultural evolution, which (in at least Clive's case and IIRC others) is strictly reductionistic: "culture is the sum of what individuals do, and nothing more." This turns back on this discussion, in that features of human cognition (particularly those that are socially and linguistically based) are crucially dependent upon the immersion of human individuals in their surrounding culture from birth. Human cognition in some sense is emergent from the evolutionary invention of brains (persons) immersed in culture - as, all the while, culture is itself modified and further elaborated by persons and their myriad interactions. Hence we have a positive feedback loop that accounts for the explosive rate of change and astounding variety and innovation that is apparent in human life.Diffaxial
April 25, 2009
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I agree with Allen - and I think this is where part of the confusion lies: emergence is not a cause but rather a description of what happens when known causes have new effects based on complex interactions with other known causes. (I think IDists make this same mistake when they think of "natural selection" as a cause, but that's another story.) And David is right, also, about Stephen et al siding with the reductionists. Ultimately one could, in theory, trace an event like a hurricane back to the root quantum level causes, but such an explanation would be a) profoundly unwieldy, b) quite unenlightening for any practical purpose, and c) most importantly for this discussion, a product of hindsight. That is, we can often explain the story behind something after it has happened that we could have never predicted from the original conditions.hazel
April 25, 2009
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JTaylor, you are correct. In fact, when scientists think a system is emergent, they then try to determine how emergence happens. That happens in every field where emergence is used as a concept. Further, emergence offers useful modeling information even in the absence of a complete explanation. It's just flat-out wrong to say emergence is a science stopper.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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StephenB: "If we just assume “emergence,” we will not probe for the added causes. The irony is that ID is not the science stopper; it is the materialist concept of emergence that grinds things to a halt." But far from halting further study, I think the scientific community is actively pursuing this to understand more about what "emergence" really means and how it works. I'm not a scientist myself, let alone a neuroscientist, but it isn't hard to find evidence that there is considerable experimental research in this area, and that things are far from grinding to a halt.JTaylor
April 25, 2009
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True enough, Allen, but there is explanatory value in a precise enough description of emergent systems, because it helps direct the attention to the appropriate level of explanation. An interesting feature of this discussion is that advocates of emergence in cognitive science are typically arguing against strong reductionists. On this thread, StephenB, Barry, and kairosfocus are implicitly taking the side of reductionism: that if it ain't reductionist, it ain't science.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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11:11 AM
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Strictly speaking, "emergence" is not a scientific explanation, it's an empirically based (i.e. scientific) description of what we observe when we compare the properties of various levels of organization in nature. We observe that populations of organisms have properties that we do not observe in the individual organisms themselves, taken in isolation. We call these new properties "emergent" to indicate that they have "emerged" out of the interactions between entities at particular levels of organization. Ergo, when we say that consciousness is an "emergent" property of brain organization and function, we are simply referring to our observation that consciousness is correlated with a particular level of nervous system organization, but we have not explained how this has happened.Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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10:58 AM
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Emergent properties exist at every level of organization in nature. For example, if one only knew about the properties of protons and neutrons in isolation, it would be impossible to predict the properties of atomic nuclei. This is because when protons and neutrons are very close together, a new physical force (the strong nuclear force) comes into play that was not observable in the protons and neutrons in isolation. The same is the case for molecules. T. H. Huxley pointed out that water has various properties that are essential for life (which he summed up as water's "aquasity"). None of these properties are predictable based on the behavior of hydrogen or oxygen atoms taken in isolation. Ergo, the properties of water are a result of the organization of its parts, which (taken in isolation) do not have those properties. I could cite examples from every level of biological organization, from biomolecules (carbohydrates, proteins, etc.) through cells, tissues, organs, organ systems, multicellular organisms, populations, communities, ecosystems, and (ultimately) the biosphere. At every one of these levels of organization (and at multiple points within them as well), there are aggregates of the components of those levels (and lower levels) that interact in such a way as to produce properties that are not "reducible" to the properties at other levels. Some neuroscientists extend this paradigm to consciousness. While this extension has currently not been directly empirically verified, it is an interesting and potentially testable hypothesis. Furthermore, the empirical fact that many aspects of consciousness can be altered or abolished by lesions to specific brain regions, and that specific types of thoughts can be correlated with changes in the metabolism of specific regions of the brain (as indicated by positron emission tomography), implies that there is indeed a causal connection between consciousness and brain activity. Based on many of the previous threads at this website that have dealt with these questions, the ID approach to the foregoing is essentially to say "no, god did it" and go off to debate which version of god is the absolutely, positively correct one.Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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10:51 AM
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"Emergence" produces practical, useful results in numerous fields, including in hurricane prediction and modeling and (as I said before) modeling of the visual system. Some science stopper.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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10:49 AM
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---David: "The problem is that emergence (which is a legitimate way of describing complex phenomena) is dismissed by Barry as “poof.” Yes, but that is what all the fuss is about. Is "emergence" really a scientific explanation." Again, I submit that "I don't know," is a better answer than it "emerged." It emerged is a weasel phrase for its more honest expression, "it just happened."StephenB
April 25, 2009
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10:42 AM
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