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Materialist Poofery

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From time to time we see materialists raising the “poof objection” against ID. The poof objection goes something like this: An ID theorist claims that a given organic system (the bacterial flagellum perhaps) is irreducibly complex or that it displays functional complex specified information. In a sneering and condescending tone the materialist dismisses the claim, saying something like “Your claim amounts to nothing more than ‘Poof! the designer did it.’”

I have always thought the poof objection coming from a materialist is particularly ironic, because materialists have “poofery” built into their science at a very basic level. Of course, they don’t use the term “poof.” They use a functional synonym of poof – the word “emergent.”

What do I mean? Consider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain. Obviously, this is not so easy for the materialist who, by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain. What do they do? They say the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain. Huh? Wazzat? That means that the brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to its individual components. The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.

And what evidence do we have that “emergence” is a real phenomenon? Absolutely none. Emergence is materialist poofery. Take the mind-brain problem again. The materialist knows that his claim that the mind does not exist is patently absurd. Yet, given his premises it simply cannot exist. So what is a materialist to do? Easy. Poof – the mind is an emergent property of the brain system that otherwise cannot be accounted for on materialist grounds.

Comments
KF, Let's tally up the score: 1a. Materialists haven't explained how consciousness can arise from a physical brain. 1b. Nonmaterialists haven't explained how consciousness can arise from an immaterial entity. Result: Tie 2a. We know that the brain exists, and we know that messing with the brain can affect consciousness or make it disappear altogether. 2b. We don't know that the putative immaterial entity exists, and if it does exist, we don't know if it is involved with or has any effect on consciousness. Advantage: materialist 3a. We know that reasoning can be mechanized, as in theorem-proving systems. 3b. We don't know that immaterial entities can reason. Advantage: materialist 4a. Natural selection gives the materialist a plausible basis for the reliability of brain-based reasoning. 4b. Nonmaterialists have no plausible basis for arguing that their reason is reliable. Advantage: materialist On 3 out of 4 issues, the advantage is with the materialist. On 0 out of 4 issues, the advantage is with the nonmaterialist. Materialism fits the facts better.mauka
April 25, 2009
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...I have not merely scoffed...
It's implicit at least!Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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Mr. M: I am not sure what point you are making in your first paragraph. Cybernetics is a good way I am sure of modelling brain processes and may lead to insights into how the brain works.
...there is an issue of selectively hyperskeptical self-referential incoherence, compounded with a question of the implications for reductionism for the credibility of mind on evo mat premises.
There is also an issue of communication. What do you mean here? This is why I mentioned tolerance. You may discount the idea that brain activity is all there is to consciousness, but unless you are able to tolerate the fact that many do believe such ideas, you are not going to make much headway.Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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I have addressed the question of materialism, divine intervention and the role of an unknown number of Creators in my essay - "The Age of Denial," available by pushing the Essays button on my opening page. If you want some real heresy try that on for size. I challenge anyone to prove that anything I present there can be shown to be in error. For that matter, what have I published, since my first paper in 1954, that has ever been proven to be without firm foundation? Absolutely nothing. And what have my many vocal adversaries ever published of significance anywhere? Absolutely nothing. jadavison.wordpress.comJohnADavison
April 25, 2009
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Mr Fox: I am pretty sure -- cf no 1 above -- I have not merely scoffed:
scoff 1 (skf, skôf) v. scoffed, scoff·ing, scoffs v.tr. To mock at or treat with derision. v.intr. To show or express derision or scorn. n. An expression of derision or scorn. [Am H Dict]
Instead, I have put up substantial responses, with onward specific warrant in summary, and now with even more details in links. I have of course also pointed out (with reasons) that some responses above were distractive on the part of a certain commenter. this was in response to such distractive behaviour, and in light of a growing track record of such behaviour. Should that commenter or others now respond substantially, I would be happy to remark on that. As to Mr BarryA, I do not find scoffing either, but a substantial response to a problem that IS often presented in exactly a supercilious and contemptuous fashion as he describes. {For many examples in point, a trip to Anti Evo would be more than enough illustration.] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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Mr Fox: Have a look at Eng. Derek Smith's very interesting discussion on cybernetic systems capable of learning and planning. (I think MIMO cybernetic systems sets a context in which we can all discuss the prospects for our developing such entities with profit. And, eventually towards BUILDING real artificial intelligences; i.e a design challenge. I propose the name R Daneel Olivaaw for the first full-fledged one, though I doubt that we will need to implement positronics systems! Opto-electronics will probably be good enough, maybe with a bit of quantum bits incorporated [if we can tame the energy-time uncertainty issues].) Also, at my discussion on the general theme here. But, let us not lose sight of the key issue for the thread: there is an issue of selectively hyperskeptical self-referential incoherence, compounded with a question of the implications for reductionism for the credibility of mind on evo mat premises. Evo mat advocates cannot consistently dismissively accuse design thinkers of "saying poof" when they are saying "emergence." (And, we all routinely experience and observe minded entities in action; we have no experience or observation of the claimed evo mat emergence of mind from the suitably spontaneously arranged patterns -- human engineering of a real AI would demonstrate ID, not spontaneous emergence . . . -- of matter. That is, there is a serious empirical gap here, and it is not in favour of the evo mat thinkers.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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Let us see if, onward, we will get a more serious response.
You may be more successful if you try to be more tolerant of alternative views. Why would anyone want to respond here when you and Barry have a prioriscoffed at the rationalists.Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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Sorry about messed up tags. trying again:
Consider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain. Obviously, this is not so easy for the materialist who, by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain.
Brain activity, the firing of neurons, etc.? can be observed. Are you saying that the mind and consciousness reside elsewhere? I guess you can believe it but it is not in the realm of science, unless, maybe you could show brain activity was somehow an insufficient process to account for conscious thought. As we are far from being able to relate brain activity to thought in a precise way (yet), I am not sure you have the easier task.Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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<blockquoteConsider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain. Obviously, this is not so easy for the materialist who, by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain.Brain activity, the firing of neurons, etc.? can be observed. Are you saying that the mind and consciousness reside elsewhere? I guess you can believe it but it is not in the realm of science, unless, maybe you could show brain activity was somehow an insufficient process to account for conscious thought. As we are far from being able to relate brain activity to thought in a precise way (yet), I am not sure you have the easier task.Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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Onlookers: Insistent strawman, ignoring relevant remarks, and distracting attention from the decisive issue as outlined in this excerpt from the main challenge to evolutionary materialism as presented in the original post ansd excerpted in comment no 1:
the materialist . . . by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain. What do they do? They say the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain . . . That means that the brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to its individual components. The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts . . .
When there is no responsiveness ont eh material issue, a question of selecrtive hyperskepticism in the onward context of a self-referetynial incoherence in the underlying worldview of evolutionary materialism [cf excerpt at 3, noting the common point on having to reduce to brain electrochemistry and failing], that is telling on the force of the main point. Let us see if, onward, we will get a more serious response. Distractive (& too often toxic) talking points, insistently reiterated ad nauseum are simply not good enough. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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Amazingly, I find I quite agree with John Davison's
I object to Barry’s freewheeling use of the word “materialist.” I regard myself as a “materialist,” Everything in the world is “material” or it wouldn’t be there. The only place the nonmaterial should ever be invoked is in the matter of first causes which will always remain a mystery.
Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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Just a quick question to Mr. M. Would you accept that a fair synonym for selective hyper-scepticism is intolerance?Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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KF, Do you have an explanation for how a nonphysical soul/spirit/mind/whatchamacallit can give rise to reason? If so, let's hear it. If not, then don't you regret changing the subject from consciousness to reason? At least with consciousness, you were on an equal footing with the materialist in being unable to explain it. With reason, you are at a decided disadvantage, because while the materialist can explain it, you cannot.mauka
April 25, 2009
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I object to Barry's freewheeling use of the word "materialist." I regard myself as a "materialist," Everything in the world is "material" or it wouldn't be there. The only place the nonmaterial should ever be invoked is in the matter of first causes which will always remain a mystery. Every scientist worth his salt is a "materialist." That is why we know that Darwinians are not scientists. They subscribe to nothing but an idea which is hardly material being only a figment of the imagination of a Victorian mystic we all know as Charles Robert Darwin. Words have meaning and they should be used with caution.JohnADavison
April 25, 2009
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Strawman, again.kairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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A while back Bill Dembski made a point that Behe's definition of irreducibly complexity was that if any piece from say the bacterial flagellum was removed that the flagellum would no longer function as a propulsion device although it might have some other function. Could someone please explain (or point me at an explaniation) of why this is significant. That is to say how would a flagellum with one extra piece by any more or less improbable to produce than one that is irreducibly complex? Davegingoro
April 25, 2009
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KF, I see that you have tried to change the subject from consciousness to reason. Unfortunately for you, that doesn't help your case. In fact, it undermines it, for while the materialist can explain how reason can arise in a physical brain, you as a non-materalist have no explanation for how a nonphysical soul/spirit/mind/whatchamacallit can give rise to reason. You merely assert that it does, magically. Poof!mauka
April 25, 2009
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Onlookers: To understand that chance + necessity are practically speaking incapable of giving rise to a mind capable of credible knowledge and reasoning, is a MAJOR advance. And, that is precisely what the resort to "emergence" is about. (Which in turn leads to the exposure of the self-referentially inconsistent selective hyperskepticism in the objection that design thought is appealing to "poof." Au contraire: we routinely experience adn observe the facts of design and of logical thought and of credible knowledge. manifested in artifacts. So, to infer to the presence of such in light of reliable signs of mind at work -- signs of design -- is reasonable. Later on, we may yet figure out "how 'twere dun," but "THAT 'twere dun" has to be acknowledged first. And evo mat agendas and tactics stand int eh way of that -- up to and including censorship harassment, career busting and expulsion. Not to mention just plain old slander and false accusations or assertions. one of which the WAC 4 above responds to.] Let me illustrate my point by citing a remark I have used in training contexts over the years: ____________________ . . . [evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . . ___________________ Let's see if we can go beyond the evo mat talking points spin games level on this one. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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Barry, While it's true that materialists have not explained how consciousness arises, neither have non-materialists. How does a physical brain give rise to consciousness? How does a nonphysical entity give rise to consciousness? It is an unsolved problem for both camps.mauka
April 25, 2009
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BarryA: Very significant observation; yet another instance of self-referentially inconsistent selective hyperskepticism on the part of evolutionary materialists. As we have seen in recent days, such materialists cannot ground morality per their worldview premises, leading to an inherently amoral system that sits ill with the massively observed fact that we are mutually morally bound. Somewhere out there, there is an IS that properly entails the OUGHT. And there is just one credible candidate for that is. Now, we see that the is a key inconsistency in the objection to the observed fact of design, that it is a "poof." [But, properly, science starts form describing the facts of reality and sets out to explain the facts. If you don't acknowledge the facts, you are not going to seek their correct explanation.] As an apt case in point . . .
the materialist . . . by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain. What do they do? They say the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain . . . That means that the brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to its individual components. The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts . . .
1 --> But, plainly, we already know that mechanical forces as such do not lead to high contingency, whether chance based or choice based. [That is, once circumstances and environment are set up and gigven dynamics are at work, the oputcome unfolds along a mechanistically necessary path.] 2 --> Of course, chance circumstances (internal and environmental) will affect outcomes by varying the conditions so that divergent outcomes become possible. But, of course, that is by definition a matter of STOCHASTIC variability. (In short, up to a relevant statistical or probability distribution, it is a matter of what happens happens, without purpose or intent.) 3 --> However, neither chance nor necessity is relevant to logic, purpose, or validity. (This is why the attempted reduction of mind to matter runs into insuperable difficulty, thence the resort to "poof": "emergence" and "supervening" by happy accident, presumably.) 4 --> In short, we see here evolutionary materialist faith in action; in the teeth of the evidence on what chance and necessity do. 5 --> the alrternative is to look seriously at the thrid major causal force: design based on intelligence. We observe intelligence (we are examples) and we know that reasoning and purpose are core to such. 6 --> So, could our minds and our brains [the i/o processors used by our minds to interface to the meat robots we use from day to day] be the products of other Minds, and in a contingent cosmos that looks designed, perhaps of a Mind belonging to a supremely intelligent and powerful necessary being? 7 --> And if Mind(s) can make minds, would it not then stand to reason that we too might one day make minds, too? [As in R Daneel Olivaaw, here we come!] Thanks again GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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