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Materialist Poofery

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From time to time we see materialists raising the “poof objection” against ID. The poof objection goes something like this: An ID theorist claims that a given organic system (the bacterial flagellum perhaps) is irreducibly complex or that it displays functional complex specified information. In a sneering and condescending tone the materialist dismisses the claim, saying something like “Your claim amounts to nothing more than ‘Poof! the designer did it.’”

I have always thought the poof objection coming from a materialist is particularly ironic, because materialists have “poofery” built into their science at a very basic level. Of course, they don’t use the term “poof.” They use a functional synonym of poof – the word “emergent.”

What do I mean? Consider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain. Obviously, this is not so easy for the materialist who, by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain. What do they do? They say the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain. Huh? Wazzat? That means that the brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to its individual components. The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.

And what evidence do we have that “emergence” is a real phenomenon? Absolutely none. Emergence is materialist poofery. Take the mind-brain problem again. The materialist knows that his claim that the mind does not exist is patently absurd. Yet, given his premises it simply cannot exist. So what is a materialist to do? Easy. Poof – the mind is an emergent property of the brain system that otherwise cannot be accounted for on materialist grounds.

Comments
More examples of emergent systems: hurricanes, sand dunes, termite mounds, flocks of birds. Can't be reduced to their components: must be designed! Saying they're emergent is materialist poofery!David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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Barry: David gave you an example of an emergent property in 35 above. Is that "poofery?"hazel
April 25, 2009
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JTaylor, re your [47]. In my [39] I demonstrate that explaining the existence of the mind is impossible even in principle for the materialist but not for the ID theorist. You do not offer even a scintilla of a rebuttal to that claim. Instead, you change the subject. Is that all you’ve got? Can I conclude from your silence regarding the basic premise of the original post and your attempt to change the subject, that you’ve got nothing to say, that you’ve been struck dumb by the scintillating brilliance of my reasoning [it’s a joke, lighten up will ya]?Barry Arrington
April 25, 2009
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BarryA:
On the other hand, ID theorists face no such limits. They may not at any given time know the details of how a designer designed a particular thing such as an embodied mind. Yet they know that, in principle, a designer can design massively complex and information rich things. They know this by just looking around and observing the massively complex and information rich things designed by intelligent agents that happen to be laying around all over the place.
I'm wondering if this is Barry's explanation of "For the ID theorists, this is is easy" Is it Barry, or can we expect more? If you are saying "They may not at any given time know the details of how a designer designed a particular thing such as an embodied mind.", then I'm not sure you are any further along in understanding this than the materialist (actually, do you have in fact any details at all of how the designer designed an embodied mind?)JTaylor
April 25, 2009
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Then by all means tell us what it means Hazel.Barry Arrington
April 25, 2009
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BarryA:
What do I mean? Consider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain.
I don't anybody here is denying that it is indeed a (very) hard problem. But how is it easy for ID theorists? I have yet to see anybody here explain this. All I've seen so far is a critique of the materialism approach. I believe Mauka is right in 19 when he/she states it is equally hard for both sides.JTaylor
April 25, 2009
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Alan Fox “Why would anyone want to respond here when [Barry has] a priori scoffed at the rationalists.” Alan, you are quite mistaken. The OP is not based on any a priori conclusion. The reasoning is entirely a posteriori. The tone of the original post is part of an my attempt to prompt a discussion. I figure that if I can get the materialists “riled up” as we say in Texas, they will come in here and give arguments for why emergence is not “materialist poofery.” Far from intolerant, my approach is very risky. I risk being made to look foolish if a materialist is able to come in and give persuasive arguments for why I am all wet. So far, no one has done that, but in principle it is possible. An intolerant poster, on the other hand, would attempt to shield his conclusion from criticism. I have not.Barry Arrington
April 25, 2009
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Good comeback, Alan :-)tribune7
April 25, 2009
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to Barry: Emergent - you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.hazel
April 25, 2009
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However, the summation of these testimonies does not convert these disparate internal experiences into an external reality. Nakashima-san, you are quite right in that you cannot use science to prove God. OTOH, you should not use science to dismiss God either.tribune7
April 25, 2009
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"Emergence is materialist magic." Untrue, as I explained above. Unless convection is a magical phenomenon.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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mauka writes: “While it’s true that materialists have not explained how consciousness arises, neither have non-materialists.” I do not agree with this statement. But let it’s grant it for the sake of argument. An important distinction remains. If their premises are correct, materialists can NEVER account for consciousness. The emergence of emergence is a tacit acknowledgement of that fact. Emergence is materialist magic, and materialist magic is self-referentially incoherent. There are limits to the creative power that can reasonably be ascribed to the operation of chance and necessity on particles in motion. On the other hand, ID theorists face no such limits. They may not at any given time know the details of how a designer designed a particular thing such as an embodied mind. Yet they know that, in principle, a designer can design massively complex and information rich things. They know this by just looking around and observing the massively complex and information rich things designed by intelligent agents that happen to be laying around all over the place. Conclusion: When it comes to explaining the mind, materialism is a dead end. We may someday understand how the mind came about, but only under a design paradigm.Barry Arrington
April 25, 2009
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So, if you have a cogent reply on the merits, why not give it a good shot?
To whether a material explanation will be sufficient to account for consciousness? Not being a scientist, as you are not, I am not really qualified to assess the merits of current research into consciousness. I strongly doubt there is much to be gained from attempting to include the supernatural. I have no idea how that could be done.Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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Willful ignorance might be a better description.
I am sure you are more familiar than me with the parable of the mote and the beam. :)Alan Fox
April 25, 2009
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Correction: "the behavior (turbulence or convection) emerges at a different, more macroscopic level."David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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Emergence is not something that materialists just made up in order to solve the problem of consciousness. Emergence is a way of thinking about all sorts of things that can't be reduced to their individual components. In fluidic systems, turbulence and convection can be thought of in emergent terms. Nobody claims that turbulence and convection don't result from material properties (including the movements and temperatures of all the individual parts of the system) but you can't fully describe it simply by describing all those properties. Even if you could, it does not reduce to those properties because the behavior (turbulence or convection) emergence at a different, more macroscopic level. So it's simply not true that "emergence" is without evidence or a materialist invention. It's an explanatory tool that helps describe the behavior of systems we know are material. Whether the mind is an emergent property of a material system (as I believe) or not, attacking emergence as such is simply ignorant.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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Mr Tribune7, Speaking for myself, I do not refuse to accept your testimony. I simply accept it at face value as a description of an internal state of your experience. Indeed, many people use the same word to describe their own internal experiences. However, the summation of these testimonies does not convert these disparate internal experiences into an external reality. It merely confirms that 'God' is an emergent property of a society.Nakashima
April 25, 2009
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ID, btw, does not imply cause. It simply describes phenomena. Maybe wrongly. Go ahead and show how.tribune7
April 25, 2009
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We don’t know that the putative immaterial entity exists, You should write that in the first person singular, mauka. I know God exists. You refuse to accept my testimony about it -- which is not an unreasonable thing to do, btw, being as how I'm an anonymous poster on the internet and all. OTOH, most people believe in God -- or something beyond the material anyway. Your illogic starts when you dismiss this statistical aggregate (i.e. calling this belief genetic programming, cultural baggage, evolutionary baggage etc.) on the basis that because you don't believe in it it can't be true.tribune7
April 25, 2009
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...continuing. In other words, the process is never explained; no fossil record, no diagram showing the changes in all the necessary sub-systems, no step-by-step evolution of the DNA instructions to produce all the proteins and components and chemicals necessary to make the thing work. No process = "poof". ID IS process. Not always a determinable process after the fact, but still a process, implying forethought, direction and purpose, and the concious marshalling of all the resources necessary to bring about the effect. That's simply not "poof", any more than "parts go in, car comes out" is "poof".SCheesman
April 25, 2009
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My objection to the "Poof" objection is much simpler. To accuse an ID supporter of believing that "Poof" is how it happened is simply a category mistake, as "Poof" implies the lack of intelligent process, and intelligent process is what ID'ers (IDists?) believe. Although emergence may have its flaws, a better example of "Poofery" is the standard Darwinian explanation for extraordinary natural systems, e.g. "The bat has evolved remarkable sonar capabilities", which can be re-written: "The bats' ancestors once lacked sonar capabilities, but "poof" now they have them".SCheesman
April 25, 2009
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The choice to analyze the material world in terms of aggregate behavior does not contradict the belief that the material world is the proper subject of scientific investigation. And that's fine. The problems start when this method claims to find answers it hasn't and to insist/imply that other means of inquiry cannot be authoritative in describing reality with regard to circumstances that science by definition cannot address. IOW, if one insists that all is material and science can address all, then one destroys science by turning it into a religion AND by pinning it to a logically inconsistent (i.e. delusional) philosophy.tribune7
April 25, 2009
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Mr Kairosfocus, Thank you for the references to Mr Smith's pages on cybernetics. Given your enthusiasm for the prospect of an "R Daneel Olivaaw", isn't it clear that this stage will be accomplished when someone flips a switch, not when they finish praying over the inert body? There is nothing in what you reference to support the thesis that something immaterial will need to be added to make a mind from a brain, no elan vital.Nakashima
April 25, 2009
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Would you accept that a fair synonym for selective hyper-scepticism is intolerance? Willful ignorance might be a better description.tribune7
April 25, 2009
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If a property is defined and meaningful only across an aggregate assemblage of entities, either in space or in time, then "emergent" is the correct way to express the relation of the property to the individual entities. Temperature is an emergent property of an assemblage of atoms. Pseudo-randomness is an emergent property of the history of the central cell state of Rule 30 CA, given simple initial conditions. A person who posits that a property is emergent is merely stating that it is statistical in nature. The choice to analyze the material world in terms of aggregate behavior does not contradict the belief that the material world is the proper subject of scientific investigation. Similarly, Hamlet is much better off soliloquizing about sleep and dreams than about the state of each synapse in his hippocampus, pontine tegmentum, and visual cortex. It certainly makes for a shorter play. :)Nakashima
April 25, 2009
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Onlookers: Evolutionary materialism, as shown in summary at 3 above, is credibly self referentially incoherent. It thus has no credible explanatory power -- unless it can be shown that it is not self-refuting. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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Barry is spot on. Materialists believe in just as many "miracles" as creationists/IDists do. They must, because the universe itself is a miracle, as in came out of nothing. All the chemicals and physical laws of nature somehow poofed from non-chemicals and non-laws ----- and that is a miracle. And let's face it, the idea that the physical (as in physical brain matter) can produce something non-physical (the mind, thoughts, beliefs, emotions) is miraculous. Likewise it is a miracle that trillions of separate physical "things" can work together to create a singular experience is also a miracle......Of course materialists refuse to call it "miraculous," and instead just refer to it as "spooky," like they do everything they can't understand (dark matter, quantum physics, action-at-a-distance, etc)van
April 25, 2009
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Until one of you gentlemen can predict the properties of table salt from the properties of sodium and chlorine, I wouldn't criticize emergence. Until then, as Mauka has pointed out, the advantage is overwhelmingly for materialism.djmullen
April 25, 2009
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PS: Cf my response at length on Weasel 86, here, to see what I mean. [Contrast this to the tone and substance of remarks -- with a lot of personalities including violation of privacy, slanderous equation of design thought and biblical Creationism, gleeful batting into the air of accusations against me in Caribbean media that had to be corrected, etc -- made over many weeks at Anti Evo; a site with which If i recall correctly, you seem to be at least somewhat associated as a participant. I won't even bother to link what was said at that site about a respectable Grandmother, Mrs O'Leary, at the same site -- there is utterly no excuse whatsoever for reprobate and utterly disgracefully uncivil behaviour like that.]kairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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Mr Fox: 1] Look up Eng Smith's two-tier controller. observe thatt he lower tier controller that directly interfaces to the plant is not the locus of intelligent direction. So, by extension, we have a model for the brain as an I/O front-end processor. [My own suggestion based on Penrose et al is that we should look at quantum level influences on the brain for an interface tot eh intelligent directing controller, the mind.] 2] Whatever you may choose to infer from my remarks above, they are very explicitly, principally and substantially focussed on the question on the merits; WITHOUT resort to cruel mockery. your onward "implicit" claim begins to look like a strained attempt at a turnabout [im-]moral equivalency accusation, esp given the longstanding patterns of Anti Evo [which have included privacy violation and gleeful citation of unsubstantiated criticisms in the media that the newspaper in question had to allow a correction of]. 3] When it comes to Mr BarryA, I do not find cruel mockery the focus of his remarks. So, again, we are seeing what looks like a turnabout play. 4] Please, substantially address the matter on the merits, if you can:
An ID theorist claims that a given organic system (the bacterial flagellum perhaps) is irreducibly complex or that it displays functional complex specified information. In a sneering and condescending tone the materialist dismisses the claim, saying something like “Your claim amounts to nothing more than ‘Poof! the designer did it.’” I have always thought the poof objection coming from a materialist is particularly ironic, because materialists have “poofery” built into their science at a very basic level. Of course, they don’t use the term “poof.” They use a functional synonym of poof – the word “emergent.” What do I mean? Consider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain. Obviously, this is not so easy for the materialist who, by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain. What do they do? They say the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain. Huh? Wazzat? That means that the brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to its individual components. The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts. And what evidence do we have that “emergence” is a real phenomenon? Absolutely none. Emergence is materialist poofery. Take the mind-brain problem again. The materialist knows that his claim that the mind does not exist is patently absurd. Yet, given his premises it simply cannot exist. So what is a materialist to do? Easy. Poof – the mind is an emergent property of the brain system that otherwise cannot be accounted for on materialist grounds.
5] Now, I would not use language like next time you hear a materialist dismissing an ID claim as poofery, point out an example of materialist poofery and watch them squirm, but right now, that looks all too accurate to the responses above. 6] But -- if you have it in hand -- a simple cogent rebuttal on the merits would more than suffice to turn the tables . . . "no squirming here." So, if you have a cogent reply on the merits, why not give it a good shot? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 25, 2009
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