Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
StephenB, @239 “I make no distinctions between material intelligence and an immaterial intelligence.” But where is the evidence intelligence can exist in absence of a material brain? This is about as reasonable as saying the mind/soul can exist devoid of material brain. “Please!” What’s wrong Stephenb? You’re asking us to investigate the evidence & determine the qualitative differences between a natural occurrence as under a ‘law’ & a being building something. They both foundationally are explainable & reducible according to natural physical material understanding. The human form is a physical natural thing, in which its mind & identify of ‘self’ is the byproduct of a physical brain. Neither extends to some external of some immaterial ‘spirit’ which itself needs an explanation of how it works & doesn’t work. There is no need to assert that the physical effects of a building were caused by some non physical ‘spirit’ thing which causes/works with a (your words) non material mind which isn’t an extension of a physical brain. In essence, to explain the natural phenomenon of X, you’re claiming Y is immaterial which works with Z (you don’t say how it does this though) which is also immaterial. You wont (can’t?) explain nor demonstrate how 1 immaterial works with or causes another immaterial.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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StephenB, “I am still waiting for your definition of a natural cause.” Go back to comment 227, it’s all there.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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StephenB, “IF the human cause is a non-material mind, then, by your standards, it is a supernatural cause.” I suppose so, but again the one holding the premise that the mind is not bound to any physical medium (you) must first be demonstrated to be verified & done so to the extent to explain *more* natural phenomena than the current premise that the mind is physically bound to the material brain. Where is your evidence that a mind can exist in absence of the physical material it requires? You have done neither, nor offered any reasonable method for establishing how a non materially bound brain which results in a mind/soul ought to work. As it stands, most (all?) the empirical evidence suggests the mind/soul cannot exist without the physical brain. Get to explaining how a non material mind works absent the physical brain & then we can move onto following premises. I don’t use your distinction that the ability to self identify, or the consciousness isn’t materially bound, you do, so my claim is that the physical brain, & the emergent property we call mind/self/soul is the byproduct of material in the brain. Thus, it’s still a natural cause. “IF the human cause is a material brain, then it is a natural cause.” The mind/soul cannot exist without the physical brain, its contingent on the material being there in the first place, so in affect both (the material brain & the emergent mind) are natural causes. I tried to build an analogy earlier with regards to the storm being an aggregate effect of all the atoms it’s made of, in this same sense the mind/self/soul is an aggregate extension of such natural material. “a mind is an immaterial faculty of an immaterial soul” Great, immaterial coming from immaterial, awfully nebulous, nice...Ok, so then explain where the immaterial soul comes from to form the faculty of the immaterial mind, & how it does this please. “the mind is not “grounded in, nor an extension of, the brain” Then finally explain some evidence for where a non material based mind can exist, anywhere, any studies? This should be very easy for you since you contend the mind isn’t an extension of the brain at all. “By my definition, the individual literally lives in two worlds–the world of spirit and the world of matter, each of which influences the other” So the spirit would be non material right? So where is the evidence for it? This ‘spirit’ as you put it, since its non material & purported to explain a natural phenomenon is why it’s considered not science. The moment you understand why invoking an unfalsifiable non physically reducible thing/spirit to effects in the world is when you see it for what it is. Where’s your evidence it exists is, let alone that it influences the other, or such as you say? “If I go into any greater detail, I will have to abandon the theme of the post, which while attractive to the methodological naturalists, does not serve rational discourse.” Wow, that is some admission. IF only you could provide some actual evidence on this front, then MN would consider it….. Of course it serves a rational discourse, we’ve been hammering away at where & what evidence you use for your claims, & at last it’s laid down that you couldn’t supply any which would suffice per the requirements of science. No wonder you want to change science.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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ANd in your buglar anology it is important to note that only the burgalr has the ability to produce vast amounts of specified complxity. The tornado would have a lot fo touble putting together useful purposeful tools by chance while moving through a junk yard- but the man has the potential to make many specified combinations. And the division of mathematics which is called combinatorics sheds a light on the magnitude of how improbable the effects of true SC intelligence are- hence the complexity of the human brain is alone extremely complex- but what it can actually do makes it even more so. Hence the notion that an ape and a man can both swing a golf club sharing man of the same genes and complexity from the physical standpoint- but only the man has a chance of making a hole in one- say every 50 thousand shots while the ape may never make one. Ever. The tornado on the other hand has not even a "sense" of a golf club. And what separates these three is that the man has perception- and perception - or self referential knowing - consciousness- is the hall mark of SC. No one is making a hole in one without knowing they should want to try- 50 thousand times or what have you. Thus, the issue of "Purpose" is at the forefront of the naturalistic questions concerning origins and SC. A man and a tornado are no more the same than are gravity and time.Frost122585
February 2, 2010
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Clive @ 231, “Do you think that anything ever invented by humans is a result of science?” No, not at all, never mind all the inventions prior to the use of science, I don’t think it’s fair to use categorical statements such as this. My view is that it is as a method is the most robust & accurate one we have at our current disposal, so like it or not, for good & for bad, it’s hands down the best method of understanding reality. “ingenuity is a result of science?” As before, no, but not b/c science doesn’t offer genuine utility, but rather b/c such a categorical statement isn’t applicable. The method of science helps to reveal reality as it is so we can be more creative & it helps to express genuine ingenuity as such accurate creativity stems from empirical facts & knowledge & not wishful thinking based on misconceptions of reality. One can as creative & imaginative as they want, but if it’s not congruent w/ reality then it really doesn’t offer much. “how humans must rely on something external to themselves as if science were a physical artifact” I would liken it to a tool Clive, it has its uses & when appropriately used yields fruits, & that is what all methods of philosophy aspire towards. “which without we would be paralyzed” Please let’s not conflate here. Our current infrastructure, from the amount of food we can produce, to the medicines we make to fight diseases, to methods to cleaning water, to predictions of weather & so on stem from a method of science understanding. You’re not seriously saying you’d rather go back to the stone age in which the method & its fruits were absent. “Is science reliant on humans and the ingenuity that we possess” To a degree yes, I mean a person can be imaginative all they want, but at the end of the day in order to convince their peers their results are accurate they have to demonstrate its results. “does science also tell us what to think” At the very least it should inform our views of reality by which we can alter what we think. Performing rain dances seem rational in the absence of knowledge about meteorology, but as science opens up the consciousness to how the material world operates we can refine our thinking so it’s more accurate. Ditto for astrology & other debunked notions, but such beliefs are generally held b/c we are attribute so much of the world revolving around us, which is comforting, but wrong. Sadly many would rather believe in something wrong & be happy, then believing in something correct & deal with the emotional consequence of not being as happy.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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I also must say that, from a scientific perspective, I make no distinctions between material intelligence and an immaterial intelligence. ID and the design inference can logically apply in a monistic world. Thus, my comment above is only a definition of an immaterial mind from the a dualists perspective, it does not, by any means, suggest that the design inference is dependent on that perspective, as CJYman has made clear. It does become an issue for methodological naturalism, however, because someone has to nail down the texture of the human cause. Is it natural or supernatural. By MN standards, if the human's design activity is generated by an immaterial mind, that means that he/she is a supernatural cause. If, however, the human's design is generated by a material brain, then it is material cause. So, how do we know whether the human agent is a supernatural or a natural cause until we ascertain the origin of that agents thought process. Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive. Also, let's face it. It is truly ridiculous to suggest that a burglar is the same kind of cause as a tornado, and then, when called on it, weasel out by saying, "well yes, they are both natural causes, yet they are, at the same time, different: The burglar is of the Natural 1 variety while the tornado is natural 2 variety. Please!StephenB
February 2, 2010
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Clive @ 231, “do you concede that thoughts can never be so measured, tested, and quantified by any material process?” No, not really. Admittedly the science is still young but there is ample evidence in neurology which demonstrates the correlation between the distinct physical parts in the brain which are responsible for controlling specific modes of thoughts. We see specific correlation between chemicals being used & changes in neurochemistry in the brain which leads to differences in modes of thought & perception of reality itself. Certain parts of the brain, like the temporal lobes, correlate to the ‘core consciousness’, generally this is similar in how thoughts are associated with our perception, while other sections correlate to the extended consciousness for which we don’t actively think about, but can refer back to if needed. This is further supported in how people like Terri Shivo who had PVS which was the result of damage to a specific section (TL) of the brain responsible for such aspects of consciousness. Thus it could be concluded she lacked any meaningful mode of thought, if she could even refer to past reality at all. We know of other studies in how strokes can affect aspects of consciousness, another would be anterograde memory loss. Not only are whole memories of ones past impacted, but the whole process of identifying oneself as unique, & thus forming thoughts, is degraded or lost in many of these studies. At the very least such thoughts are reducible to the physical medium in which they depend upon. "In other words, show me what thoughts are being produced without asking the person what thoughts they are having” Thoughts in themselves are subjective experience, we don’t operate as a hive brain where we’re all sharing a vast neural network, & regrettably we cannot perform ESP, or telepathic thought, so you asking for such a thing ignores the component involved in expressing thoughts to others – communication. Even if we examine the computer in its limited intelligence, it’s mode of thought (if we can call it that) in processing data are limited to its own container, only if they’re linked to other computers can they comprehend other instructions & information from them, so even in a network such as this, the data is communicated first, comprehended second. If you were take ’thoughts’ as being the same as neural activity (which I doubt), then surely you’d say this we can & have measured & can identify to parts of the brain. But can we measure the act of a person thinking, or processing sensory input, yes, & this is not even a matter of question as studies on people sleeping demonstrate the changes in brain activity as the brain emulates a virtual reality. Surely they are thoughts of some sort, real or not, but narrowing down the specifics of the dream (what are they specifically thinking?) is something we can’t do yet accurately yet. There are studies in which people who are performing a given activity during the day will very likely have a dream incorporating many properties of that activity, the brains way of virtualizing the event in order to have better improved results the next time around. The brain is always working, & this explains why activities in which we dream of them (playing piano) we often better results the following day. In this way we could somewhat predict what a person’s thoughts in their dreams will consist of, but likely not to the degree of which you’re asking for in which we can at any given moment in their dream say they’re having X thought. We can I think at the moment give a probabilistic educated measurement of their modes of thought.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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---agentorange: "Oh dear Steve, could you at least show some evidence that the identity of mind/self is not linked to the physical brain? Here’s your chance, explain how a non material mind works, & moreover how you know it works as it claim it does." Oh, dear agentorange, please try to grasp the distinction of a hypothetical as opposed to an argument. IF the human cause is a non-material mind, then, by your standards, it is a supernatural cause. IF the human cause is a material brain, then it is a natural cause. If, therefore, you don't know which is the case, you cannot establish the texture of the cause, which means you cannot apply to it the rule of methodological naturalism, or else you must declare apriori that there are no minds. ---"Ok, I got you, in this the ‘mind’ is interchangeable with ‘soul or ‘conscious’, we don’t disagree with that much." Lets say interactive. Interchangeable sounds as if one will suffice for the other. By my definition, a mind is an immaterial faculty of an immaterial soul. A brain is a physical organ, without which the mind cannot function. At the same time, the mind is not "grounded in, nor an extension of, the brain." By my definition, the individual literally lives in two worlds--the world of spirit and the world of matter, each of which influences the other. Plainer than that I cannot be. If I go into any greater detail, I will have to abandon the theme of the post, which while attractive to the methodological naturalists, does not serve rational discourse. "But your statement isn’t only that the mind exists.......... As I recall, I asked you to tell me what you mean by "mind." This is our pattern. I tell you exactly what I mean, and you ask for more clarification while withholding your own views. Also, I am still waiting for your definition of a natural cause.StephenB
February 2, 2010
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agentorange #233, speaking of scientific empiricism, reminded me of the following statements by that theistic naturalist Aquinas:
Reasoning may be brought forward for anything in a two-fold way: firstly, for the purpose of furnishing sufficient proof of some principle, as in natural science, where sufficient proof can be brought to show that the movement of the heavens is always of a uniform velocity. Reasoning is employed in another way, not as furnishing a sufficient proof of a principle, but as showing how the remaining effects are in harmony with an already posited principle; as in astronomy the theory of eccentrics and epicycles is considered as established, because thereby the sensible appearances of the heavenly movements can be explained; not however as if this proof were sufficient, since some other theory might explain them.
S. Theol., I, 32, I, ad 2.
For although, when such hypotheses have been made, they appear to account for the phenomena, it is still not necessary to say that these hypotheses are true; because possibly the appearances of the stellar movements may be explained according to some method not yet understood by men.
In Li De Caelo, 17 Here's a 13th century theologian explaining the nature of scientific hypotheses with an example that foreshadows the overthrow of Ptolemaic astronomy in the 16th century!Adel DiBagno
February 2, 2010
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Sorry to pop in again when I promised to shut up, but some recent posts about Pompei and burglars have reminded me that I answered the question that StephenB posed in #129:
unless, of course, you think God used secondary causes to produce Pompei and the burglar.
My answer, in #176 was:
What else would I think? What else would Aquinas think? What do you think?
Maybe that answer wasn't clear enough for StephenB to critique it. Let me try this: Yes, secondary causes would apply in both cases, by the rule: secondary causes are natural causes.Adel DiBagno
February 2, 2010
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agentorange,
In short asking for a method like science to reveal absolute Truth with a capital T is to ignore how the process works. The practice is as much about the journey as it is the destination. It’s not rational on the one hand to say the method is invalid or insufficient at describing reality to any degree whilst using the very technology spawned from its research. Such a stance is quite hypocritical.
Do you think that anything ever invented by humans is a result of science? Do you think that all human ingenuity is a result of science? I'm really curious to know what you think humans are, and what you think science is, and how humans must rely on something external to themselves as if science were a physical artifact, like the philosopher's stone, and which without we would be paralyzed. Or is it the other way around? Is science reliant on humans and the ingenuity that we possess, quite independent of any process we may label? I mean, if all technology is the result of science, does science also tell us what to think? Is it a process that which without we wouldn't think correctly about anything?Clive Hayden
February 2, 2010
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VJtorely @ 209, “why should we trust them” I guess the consequences of not trusting them is fair, anyone game to try my hammer thought experiment & let me know if they still trust their thoughts? Asking why thoughts are warranted to be trusted, at least in some respects, is to ignore many of the subconscious’s thoughts we have which are unique & geared towards our own survival. Many would call such thoughts ‘phobias’, but they’re a legacy of survival in which the thoughts are true to the degree that they matter for our survival. “speculative hypotheses:” Any method of analysis which involves for multiple tests of evidence & for independent objective verification of results is about as accurate a method as we can hope for. Beyond I think therefore I am, anything is up for debate, but the method of science & its requirements of verification dictate that only the most resolute models endure. It’s a pursuit of truth, but alas it might not be possible that we will know everything about everything, & that which we know a great deal about we only know mostly to a degree. Let’s suppose we dump science (darwinism as you put it) though for a moment, what shall we use in its place? What method of analysis has shown historically to yield more fruits & more accurate representation of reality? I don’t ask this for sake of asking, I ask b/c other methods were & have been used in the past & the largest downfall was the method itself wasn’t sufficient enough. Let’s suppose we use the bible, or one of the other many holly books which claim revealed truth. It would seem that if we can’t trust our thoughts, that this would also impact our ability to read any possible revealed truth. Additionally any claimed truth by this means would not be the result of our own investigation, but rather assertions from on high which itself is found to vary with respect to the cultural form which it was spawned. In short asking for a method like science to reveal absolute Truth with a capital T is to ignore how the process works. The practice is as much about the journey as it is the destination. It’s not rational on the one hand to say the method is invalid or insufficient at describing reality to any degree whilst using the very technology spawned from its research. Such a stance is quite hypocritical.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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CJYMan at 227:
efron ts, I apologize in advance for the length of this post, yet apparently I need to explain myself better than I have been since you seem to be ignoring my previous explanations.
Not ignored, forgotten. I was so excited about having a discussion with Stephen that you completely slipped my mind. I have read your lengthy comment and perhaps I have judged you unfairly. You seem to be taking the discussion head on (Apply directly to forehead!), so I will respond to your comments. However, I want to do so thoughtfully and will not be able to do so over my lunch break. I will respond later tonight or in the morning. Contrary to Stephen's opinion, I am a man of my word.efren ts
February 2, 2010
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agentorange,
You conceded you can trust your thoughts, & this came as the conclusion through a materialistic realization & understanding (per my example w/ the hammer no less) that they are linked to your physical brain. Odd how on one hand you say you can trust them when it comes to you having to bash your hand with a hammer, but then you do a 180’ and assert the materialism on which that premise is founded on you say it can’t be trusted. Oh dear…
Of course you're arguing in a circle aren't you. I said on the premise of materialism our thoughts cannot be trusted, we cannot assert our thoughts as trustworthy as evidence of materialism unless we argue in a circle, for materialism is what is in question and cannot also be the answer to the question. Answer me on your materialistic philosophy being measured, tested, and quantified, in the same way that it wants to measure, test, and quantify other thoughts, or do you concede that thoughts can never be so measured, tested, and quantified by any material process? If thoughts can be so measured, tested, and quantified, then show me a physical thought, not a physical description of the brain, but an actual explanation of the brain's movements producing thoughts by describing the movements. In other words, show me what thoughts are being produced without asking the person what thoughts they are having. Show me the thoughts that are determined based solely on material movements without any input from the person being studied, I'd like to see how material movement can be discerned to what thought is occurring, such as "This movement of neurons occurred in the brain, which means that thought X is occurring", and all being done and explained without reference to asking the patient what they were thinking. You cannot, for the thing is impossible, it is trying to get an ought from an is. Clive Hayden
February 2, 2010
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CJYman at 226, Nice to read you again! I've been reading this thread during lunch and was just going to lurk, but since you're here there's a good chance of a productive conversation. I'd like to comment on just one small part of your message: Furthermore, StephenB didn’t “assume” that intelligence is not natural, he first defined natural as law+chance, then he noticed that there is a difference between things that can be defined by only law+chance and events that require intelligence. You've just pointed out exactly where StephenB assumes his conclusion. The trichotomy of "law", "chance", and "intelligence" implicitly assumes that the three are disjoint. Whether deliberate or not, this is an attempt to avoid having to demonstrate that intelligence is not the result of natural processes (which I presume is what is meant by "law and chance", a term I find more obfuscating than enlightening). Thus far in this thread, I haven't seen anyone support this implicit claim. Failing to do so leaves the definitions incoherent and useless. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.Mustela Nivalis
February 2, 2010
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StephenB, @ 203 “burglar’s choice is motivated by an immaterial mind, and not his brain, he then becomes supernatural cause” Oh dear Steve, could you at least show some evidence that the identity of mind/self is not linked to the physical brain? Here’s your chance, explain how a non material mind works, & moreover how you know it works as it claim it does. @205 “I am referring to an immaterial faculty of the soul, which, as long as it is housed in a body, cannot function in the absence of a physical brain, but can, nevertheless do things that the brain cannot do” Ok, I got you, in this the ‘mind’ is interchangeable with ‘soul or ‘conscious’, we don’t disagree with that much. But your statement isn’t only that the mind exists, as I would agree with you there, but your claim is that a non material based mind is possible, that is in the absence of the physical brain for which the mind is apparently reliant on, you claim that the mind/soul can exist outside of this somehow. So what evidence is there that the physical matter (brain) that the mind apparently relies on, & in the absence of, that a mind/soul/consciousness of identity can exist? Further, can you elaborate on what other ‘things’ (kinda vague there) the mind can do, that the brain cannot? With this statement you’re making a distinction that the mind (somehow?) isn’t contingent on having a brain as you alledge that some things it can do that the brain can’t, in affect you’re saying certain functionality isn’t reducible to the physical brain, but something else. Ok, then what is this you attribute these things to? This statement itself would appear to be self-contradictory as it asserts that the brain is not at all linked to the self identity of the soul/mind & that the function of the mind/soul isn’t dependent upon at any level of the physical brain. “can control the brain’s impulses.” Would this be simpler to just say it’s the brain regulating itself? I agree that we have some control over the functional aspects in our lives, but no matter how hard we try to fight the urge of having to use the restroom, it will happen, no matter how hard one tries to will it away. “Outside the body, that may be a different matter” May be this, may be that....I really don’t care for endless conjecture. Evidence? “Note that I am not arguing for the existence of these” In your article you say: “This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds”. In such a statement & the rest of your article it becomes clear you’re advocating for an immaterial mind (non material mind). So where’s the evidence that minds can exist in absence of material? “It is the immaterial mind that I say reason provides much evidence for” StephenB, I don’t question that the mind/soul/consciousness is real, where we part is that you says it’s not reducible to a physical material brain, where I think it is. I’ll take a page from your book, do you think the mind is reducible to physical brain, or not? But is the mind/consciousness reducible to immaterial? No, not really, for if it were it would follow that in the absence of the physical material brain that the conscious/mind could exist, but alas this is evidence we’re all still waiting for…agentorange
February 2, 2010
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efron ts, I apologize in advance for the length of this post, yet apparently I need to explain myself better than I have been since you seem to be ignoring my previous explanations. efron ts: "Since you have fufilled my prediction about diverting the conversation away from substantive questions into infinite parsing of definitions (Dictionarys! All the way down!), I really have nothing more to add except to point out again that Stephen’s definition, which you seem rather fond of, assumes his conclusion that intelligence is not natural. That is an assertion that has yet to be proven and, therefore, is unwarranted." I am actually becoming fond of StephenB. In fact, before this conversation, I was a strict methodological naturalist. I'm now more agnostic and leaning away from both it and materialism. Second, I both dealt with the fact that your definition does not work to usefully separate the natural from the supernatural, since it is akin to stating that the supernatural = "that which we can't *yet* measure," and thus causes MN to be a gap maker and science stopper. Then, I actually did answer the question, given your definitions. Why are you ignoring the answer? Do you not "like" the answer. Furthermore, StephenB didn't "assume" that intelligence is not natural, he first defined natural as law+chance, then he noticed that there is a difference between things that can be defined by only law+chance and events that require intelligence. Then, I added the fact that law is subservient to intelligence (since intelligence can indeed design laws/algorithms and sets of laws/algorithms), and there is no reason to suppose that law+chance can generate intelligence on its own (absent previous intelligence), and I already linked to a previous explanation of mine on this very subject. This places intelligence in a position above/superior to the subservient category of law+chance, and thus "super" to law+chance/nature -- "supernatural." This categorization is useful in a discussion of MN and makes the "MNer's" position useless as it realtes to science. You have yet to counter any of this if you believe that there is any contradiction or incorrect reasoning. Did you miss all that the first time I explained it? Third, StephenB has gone over that over and over and over again now, and you seem to not "like" what he is saying as well, since you seem to either flail around without addressing any supposed inconsistency in his position as it relates to MN and science. Or you just ignore him almost as well as you are ignoring my answers to your questions. CJYman: "Well since ID Theory is only about objectively discovering signs of previous intelligence, then we are good to go." efron ts: "In principal, it could be. In practice, not by a country mile. As I stated, the only intelligence we can conclusively identify and study is that which is tied to a physical form. Now, I suppose you I have opened to door for you to protest that I have not sufficiently define “physical”, but I trust that you are not so obstinate to debate that humans have a physical form and exist in the physical world." The only requirement for intelligence is that a sufficiently organized information processing system exist. Thus, intelligence can indeed reside in a human brain, an animal brain, a silicon computer, a computer made of material that we humans have not yet utilized for computation, in sufficiently organized information processing events, in sufficiently organized quantum events, in the structure of the foundation of the universe itself, etc. In fact, I don't see how your statement addresses, or in any way negates, my statement. ID Theory in its present scientific and quantifiable form can only detect the existence of previous intelligence in an events causal chain. If you disagree, then please show me what more ID Theory can do. That would be most interesting and, I'm sure, enlightening for all ID proponents. efron ts: "The problem with ID is that posits a presumed designer that is outside of nature (using any definition)." I think that the distinction between natural and supernatural is artificial yet useful to distinguish law+chance from intelligence, and show the one way subservience of law+chance to intelligence. The reason I see the distinction as artificial is because, according to the definition of "nature" being that which can be measured, tested, and observed at least indirectly (by observing effects), I actually see intelligence as perfectly natural. Yet, the point of this thread of StephenB's is that no matter which way you define it, MN becomes useless in science (as opposed to the "ground rule" which some scientists wish to impose on others). But, of course I've already explained this above and you've done quite well ignoring my explanations. So, actually, the definition does make a tremendous difference. Yet, either way, MN is rendered useless from a scientific vantage, which again, is the whole point. efron ts: "Sure, some will occasionally agree that the designer could be a space alien (wink! wink!), but no one in the ID community actually believes that." And what does this have to do with the subject of this thread, or the ID argument again? Since I am a panentheist, I actually think that it is the universe itself, or the quantum mechanical foundation of the universe which is the foundational/ultimate intelligence. This is consistent with Penrose and Hameroff theory referencing consciousness being a fundamental quality alongside matter/energy. efron ts: "So, by being outside of nature the designer is not amenable to study like the more mundane forms of intelligence that we are familiar with." So long as that intelligence leaves effects, that intelligence is able to be studied in the same manner that the aliens who transmit a message to us would in theory be able to be studied based on the signal that they send. However, this is wondering more into psychology of intelligence rather than ID proper. So intelligence (no matter where it resides -- beyond, at the foundation, or within out universe) becomes perfectly natural in the sense of producing effects which are measurable, detectable, etc, yet is still supernatural in the sense of being "over" nature (law+chance). That is why I see the distinction as artificial yet useful. I have merely combined both your and StephenB's definitions and utilize them where appropriate. And again, on topic with the original point of this thread, no matter which way the terms are defined, this does nothing to help the "MNer's" assertions that ID is not science as per the rules of MN. efron ts: "But, until such time as you can demonstrate that human intelligence can operate independent of the ugly bag of mostly water it is associated with, you are, to repeat, assuming your conclusion." Computers are already intelligent, in the sense of AI (lacking consciousness). Do you have any theoretical reason to suggest that computers can not also become conscious? efron ts: "So, to your statement, ID could become scientific. All that it needs to do is produce the designer. But, alas, any question of the means, motives, or identity of the designer is strictly forbidden." ID already is scientific. By your "rational" here, neither the big bang, a study of e and b fields, nor past evolution would be scientific until you produce such things. Means, motives, and identity are part of psychology and further "forensic type" research. Perfectly useful, yet with limitations, and not part of the mathematics and inference of ID Theory proper.CJYman
February 2, 2010
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StephenB @201, “I am going to be respectful here:” Next time you’re feeling respectful, get up the gumption, ( dare I say courage?) & take it upon yourself to describe your op ed assertions. 1) How a non material mind works, & 2) how you know it works as how you describe it does. “are you saying that the tornado is a natural cause and the burglar is a supernatural cause?–“ No. I stated earlier quite clearly, as did efren ts, that nature, & thus natural causes would include not only natural events like earthquakes, tornadoes & the like, but also actions in which a physical being, like us, or your bears, are altering the physical makeup (cabin) of something in nature. Are such things detectable? Yes. These changes would be measurable, testable, & determinable with known applicable natural laws. As I alluded to earlier, the supernatural, would consist of, in part, ethereal non material things (god, angels, etc), & for reasons that I don’t think I have to describe, both physical reality & us, including our brains, are part of material reality. “are you saying here that human beings are natural causes? Are human beings, acting as causal agents, natural causes or supernatural causes?” Their actions are consistent with known applicable natural laws, that is they cannot supersede them or act outside of them as supposedly supernatural things/agents can. I earlier in comment 45 explained how Behe holds that in certain steps where the known natural physical laws are considered, he contends that no natural process could have allowed for the flagella to form, thus he’s saying some non material (wink* wink*) agent whom he calls ‘the designer’ acted in forming this system for the bacterium. So yes, humans & bears & other physical beings are part of the possible natural causes that physical reality involves, as they can’t supersede them, they can’t magically out of nowhere create the flagella for instance.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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Clive, @ 198 You conceded you can trust your thoughts, & this came as the conclusion through a materialistic realization & understanding (per my example w/ the hammer no less) that they are linked to your physical brain. Odd how on one hand you say you can trust them when it comes to you having to bash your hand with a hammer, but then you do a 180’ and assert the materialism on which that premise is founded on you say it can’t be trusted. Oh dear… @ 199 Is the philosophy itself reducible to physical, observed, measureable reality? As mentioned earlier the law of non contradiction is among some of the rules of logic used in the method, & this method is reducible to the physical world around us in which we cannot necessarily be moving in opposing directions simultaneously. Though I am not sure how valid a logical rule is it, as it fails to accurately explain some of the movements at the subatomic level where sub atomic particles are not only moving in multiple directions but doing so apparently at once. The scientific method currently used is the end product of many years of analyzing what philosophy is able to most accurately able to described reality & make corrections to further refine the view of reality as new evidence is found & tested. I would think all the fruits of science would be indicative that the method is reliable, is accurate, & allows for continual accommodation of new data. I guess to you such fruits aren’t evidence of the method itself being even remotely accurate.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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PPS: Kick the issue up a notch by addressing the origin of a fine-tuned, cell based life facilitating cosmos. Can one -- apart form a priori materialism -- eliminate the possibility that such was intelligently designed by an extra-cosmic creator? Can one postulate another causal explanation that is beyond reasonable dispute superior on factual adequacy, coherence, and explanatory elegance and power? [And since this is the ONLY context in which ID qua science suggests a super-natural (i.e. extra-cosmic and grounding the cosmos) inference as the prime possibility, to play ate strawman games as above, is irrelevant and distractive. It might even fall afoul of the issue of selective hyperskepticism . . . ]kairosfocus
February 2, 2010
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Stephen at 221:
No, you will not.
Yes, I will. But, we need to get a few definitions and foundational understandings out of the way first in order to allow others to know exactly what I mean so that they can judge my facility to use them and draw reasonable conclusions in the process.
You, and agentorange have been given plenty of room and rope.
Rope? I am shocked (shocked!) to find that you are not in this discussion to understand how other people approach this problem, but rather are here to conduct a rhetorical lynching of your presumed opponents. (On a slightly tangential note, I have heard that there is gambling taking place at Rick's Café Américain.)
All rational people know that a burglar is a different kind of cause than a tornado; all rational people know that the builders of Pompeii were a different kind of cause than the valcano that buried it
I suppose that is true. Depending, of course, on how you define "different." Fear not, though, I have no intention of parsing that word any further than to ask if you agree that there are multiple shades of different up to, and including, mutually exclusive.
Anyone who does not know that, or who will not own up to it, is either irrational or intellectually dishonest.
Well, I intend to prove both my rationality and my honestly. Come now, let us reason together.
I have no more time to dance. Sorry.
Probably just as well, Sam just started playing "As Time Goes By." Nice song, but not much of a beat.
Any long post that contains relevant and instructive content is welcome.
Well, I'd ask you to point me to where in KF's comments he provided the proof that the human mind can operate independently of the physical body it is associated with. But, that would be putting the cart before the horse until we get our heads together on a few other matters first.efren ts
February 2, 2010
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FG: All rational people also know that people are intelligent and volcanoes and tornadoes are not. Further, all intelligent people know that people cannot be reasonably claimed to exhaust the list of possible intelligent agents. Cf the excerpt from Wicken for the implied issues:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and note added.) HT: VJT]
And now, let us remember, from Michael denton, just what sort of system we are directly interested in addressing:
The intuitive feeling that pure chance could never have achieved the degree of complexity and ingenuity so ubiquitous in nature has been a continuing source of scepticism since the publication of the Origin . . . . To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter [so each atom in it would be “the size of a tennis ball”] and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules [ 500 k - 3 bn 4-state bases typically . .. i.e. we effectively start at an order of magnitude beyond 1 k bits just for DNA]. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines . . . . We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices used for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction . . . . However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours . . . . Unlike our own pseudo-automated assembly plants, where external controls are being continually applied, the cell’s manufacturing capability is entirely self-regulated . . . . [T]he complexity of biological systems in terms of the sheer number of unique components is very impressive; and it raises the obvious question: could any sort of purely random process ever have assembled such systems in the time available? [Evolution: a Theory in Crisis, 1986, pp. 327 – 331]
Muy interesante. So, is this order or organisation? What does that strongly suggest or may well imply, about the ultimate source of the cell? On what grounds? And, would it make a dime's worth of difference to the empirically anchored seeking of the truth about the cosmos, if the cell were indeed conclusively seen as an artifact of intelligence? If so/ if not so, what does that tell us about methodological naturalism? G'day GEM of TKI PS: Onlookers, note too the silence on the nature definitions front . . .kairosfocus
February 2, 2010
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Stephen, all rational people know that burglars are people and tornados are not. All rational people know that people built Pompeii and do not build volcanoes. People and tornados/volcanoes are different categories of entities. Nobody disputes this. What is disputed is that the category that includes people also includes other, altogether unspecified and never observed entities that share certain characteristics with people (intelligence, volition etc.). Nothing in any of your examples or definitions supports that inclusion. It is certainly not reasonable to insist that such entities exist without presenting a lot more evidence for them than you have done so far. fGfaded_Glory
February 2, 2010
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efren ts: "Yes I will, Stephen, but first we need to establish a few foundational understandings." No, you will not. You, and agentorange have been given plenty of room and rope. You cannot and will not defend your position and everyone knows it. All rational people know that a burglar is a different kind of cause than a tornado; all rational people know that the builders of Pompeii were a different kind of cause than the valcano that buried it. Anyone who does not know that, or who will not own up to it, is either irrational or intellectually dishonest. I have no more time to dance. Sorry. ----"Actually, I only commented on length, not style. But that said, you might have a word with the author of comment 72, who seems to have also criticized another commenter on the same grounds." I commented on another blogger using 3000 words to evade the issue and conduct a seminar on that which we already know, not for simply using 3000 words. Any long post that contains relevant and instructive content is welcome.StephenB
February 2, 2010
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FG--I define the term ‘God’ as ‘an imaginary all-powerful being that created the universe’. Here's an exercise: define rojo as white, tener as to speak, hablar as to have, then have a debate with a Mexican. You will comfortably trash him, I'm sure :-)tribune7
February 2, 2010
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KF:
Onlookers:
Friends, Romans, Countrymen!
It is a sadly familiar materialist’s debate tactic to dismiss on style or length etc that which they have no cogent answer to on the merits.
Actually, I only commented on length, not style. But that said, you might have a word with the author of comment 72, who seems to have also criticized another commenter on the same grounds. As to having no answer to your comments, well that is certainly true, but only because I didn't read them at length. I did scan them to see if you were stepping up to the challenge at hand and finding that you hadn't, I moved on.
ET is wishing to smuggle in materialism as default by the back door
Actually, no. I came in through the front door, loud and proud. We know that there is a significant physical component of human cognition. The impact of traumatic brain injury and the relative efficacy of modern medication in treating various mental disorders such as depression or schizophrenia stand as testament. That is all established science, thus the "materialist" position is our starting point. Now if you wish to assert that it is more than just really complex biochemistry, have at it. I'm open to the assertion that we are more than that. We all want to feel special, now don't we? But, I would note, in your additional 870 words you have provided no proof of a mind working independent of it's physical form. Oh, you shared some fine words about self-referential absurdities, but you have yet to rise above the level of deus ex machina.efren ts
February 2, 2010
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Onlookers: It is a sadly familiar materialist's debate tactic to dismiss on style or length etc that which they have no cogent answer to on the merits. So, the ball is definitely in ET's court; to show that s/he has a sound answer to the issues already raised by not only the humble blog commenter as undersigned, but by serious thinkers all the way up to a Plantinga etc in the current era -- and dating back to Plato in the Laws, Bk X. On seeing that,we notice the rede herring led away to a strawman distortion of the issue, and that ET of course is being question-begging, within a demonstrably self-referentially incoherent system of thought. As to the distractive issue of human mental functioning being "independent" of the body, the inference ET invites pivots on a key ambiguity in the concept of cause: sufficient vs necessary vs necessary and sufficient. (In a nutshell: Air, heat and fuel are each necessary for and jointly sufficient to trigger or sustain a fire under ordinary circumstances. Presence/absence of each factor influences outcomes, but does not wholly determine it. Just so, mind and body [this last including Brain and CNS] are jointly involved in human bodily function. But hat has no evidential value in deciding that mind cannot act independent of or is wholly emergent from or is simply a manifestation of body, a la "the brain secretes thoughts as the liver secretes bile." ET is wishing to smuggle in materialism as default by the back door, but we see on separate grounds that it is a logical non-starter, being inescapably self-contradictory. ) Human bodily functioning of course is influenced by the body, including the brain and CNS as in-built i/o controller with considerable storage. But to go on from that to infer that it is wholly reducible to/ nothing but a manifestation such is a horse of a decidedly different colour. One that runs into the problem of Crick's patently absurd nothing buttery:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [The Astonishing hypothesis, 1994]
To that, Johnson's rebuke in his Reason in the Balance, 1995, is apt: Sir Francis should have been therefore willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."  Johnson then acidly commented:  “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” That is, Johnson is arguing that IF self-evident "fact no 1" -- that we are conscious, mental creatures who at least some of the time have freedom to think, intend, decide, speak, act and even write based on the logic and evidence of the situation  -- is false, THEN the science and rationality are dead. Put in other words, it is quite plain that self-referential absurdity is the dagger pointing to the heart of any such reductionistic evolutionary materialistic determinism as seeks to explain "all" -- including mind -- by "nothing more than" natural forces acting on matter and energy, in light of chance initial and intervening circumstances. (This is as opposed to restricted explanations that explain (i) natural regularities by reference to (a) underlying mechanical necessity, and explain (ii) highly contingent situations by reference to (b) chance and/or (c) intelligent action. We then distinguish b and c by identifying and applying reliable signs of intelligence; similar to what obtains in statistical hypothesis testing and in control-treatment experiment designs and related factor analysis.) Notwithstanding such sharp exchanges, on either approach, through the Derek Smith two-tier controller robotics model and related possibilities for the supervisory controller for the i/o controller sub-system, we have potentially fruitful frameworks of thought on which we can investigate the nature of mind and its interaction with the body and brain, within both materialistic and non-materialistic worldviews. (And, by the way, it is not beyond the realm of the reasonably possible that BOTH fully material and dualistic mind-body intelligent cybernetic systems may prove to be feasible!) _______________ Coming back to the main topic, it is clear that the effective function of MN is to smuggle in philosophical a priori materialism into science by the back door. And to do that, it distorts the history and proper -- historically warranted [Do you want to imply that say a Newton or a Pascal or a Maxwell or a Kelvin were not practising science? Let's just say that the very fact that units of measure go by those names is a refutation in itself!] -- definition of science. And ends up subverting science -- especially origins science -- from being:
an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our world, based on observation, evidence and reasoned analysis and discussion among the informed
G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 2, 2010
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While I stand by my previous decision to not carry on a discussion with KF, I would note that, despite honoring us with a 3420 word tome (and Stephen has the nerve to mock Seversky for a mere 2958 word comment), he has yet to offer any proof that human intelligence can operate independently of the physical form it is associated with. Clear that small hurdle and accept your definition of natural.efren ts
February 2, 2010
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PPPS: Collins English Dictionary:
nature [?ne?t??] n 1. the fundamental qualities of a person or thing; identity or essential character 2. (often capital, esp when personified) the whole system of the existence, arrangement, forces, and events of all physical life that are not controlled by man 3. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) all natural phenomena and plant and animal life, as distinct from man and his creations 4. a wild primitive state untouched by man or civilization 5. natural unspoilt scenery or countryside 6. disposition or temperament 7. tendencies, desires, or instincts governing behaviour 8. the normal biological needs or urges of the body 9. sort; kind; character 10. the real appearance of a person or thing a painting very true to nature 11. accepted standards of basic morality or behaviour 12. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) Biology the complement of genetic material that partly determines the structure of an organism; genotype Compare nurture [3] 13. Irish sympathy and fondness for one's own people or native place she is full of nature against nature unnatural or immoral by nature essentially or innately call of nature Informal, euphemistic or humorous the need to urinate or defecate from nature using natural models in drawing, painting, etc. in (or of) the nature of essentially the same as; by way of [via Old French from Latin n?t?ra, from n?tus, past participle of nasc? to be born] Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
Notice, how this definiiton carefuly avoids excessive metaphysical commitments, by contrast with how Wikipedia -- which si aof course dominarted by materialistic ideology -- stumbles badly:
Nature, in the broadest sense, is equivalent to the natural world, physical universe, material world or material universe. "Nature" refers to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. Manufactured objects and human interaction are not considered part of nature unless qualified in ways such as "human nature" or "the whole of nature". Nature is generally distinguished from the supernatural.
Note, too, how Wiki mentions then glides over the nature/art distinction, rushing to the nature/ supernatural one.kairosfocus
February 2, 2010
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PPS: Ostensive definition is in fact the foundational one: we form a CONCEPT based on examples, then infer to characteristics and express them verbally and hopefully precisely. In effect we are using here something rather like the old set builder notation for mathematical sets, modified by the family resemblance principle: we recognise new examples form how they are more or less analogous to old accepted ones -- and BTW this brings out how the current schools programming to dismiss analogies out of hand is wrongheaded -- at some point we have to mark a border, however roughly and provisionally. It is worth citing fromt he just linked on analogy:
Analogy is a cognitive process of transferring information from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from one particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general. The word analogy can also refer to the relation between the source and the target themselves, which is often, though not necessarily, a similarity, as in the biological notion of analogy. Analogy plays a significant role in problem solving, decision making, perception, memory, creativity, emotion, explanation and communication. It lies behind basic tasks such as the identification of places, objects and people, for example, in face perception and facial recognition systems. It has been argued that analogy is "the core of cognition".[1] Specific analogical language comprises exemplification, comparisons, metaphors, similes, allegories, and parables, but not metonymy. Phrases like and so on, and the like, as if, and the very word like also rely on an analogical understanding by the receiver of a message including them. Analogy is important not only in ordinary language and common sense, where proverbs and idioms give many examples of its application, but also in science, philosophy and the humanities. The concepts of association, comparison, correspondence, mathematical and morphological homology, homomorphism, iconicity, isomorphism, metaphor, resemblance, and similarity are closely related to analogy. In cognitive linguistics, the notion of conceptual metaphor may be equivalent to that of analogy.
And, note how I am making sure to . . . clarify terms, ideas, concepts, views etc.kairosfocus
February 2, 2010
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