Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
Well, after having watched a dear family member try to overcome severe clinical depression for years through prayer and increasingly strident faith in The Designer; only to finally find relief in medicine provided to us by materialist researchers who apparently didn’t get the memo stating that methodological naturalism was a science stopper. Now, THAT's a strawman. Quick quiz: any lives ever been screwed up by therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists working dogmatically from meth-nat principles? Think courts should accept repressed memories as evidence? How do you feel about lobotomies? Think we should start doing them again? And what mainstream Christian religion opposes the use of psychiatric medicine?tribune7
February 4, 2010
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PS: And on the behalf of greats like Newton [oh ghost of Newton, forgive me . . . ], I resent you inference to scientific laziness on the part of design thinkers, especially in a context where what is on the ground is PERSECUTION of such scientists. Sorry. On cosmological origins, the momentum is with the inference to fine tuning, and that momentum is being backed up by serious research.kairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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ET: Pardon that I have to say this on an emotionally laden subject, but this is more strawman argumentation. There are cases of depression that are linked to brain chemistry imbalances, and there are those that are induced by guilt over one's own misbehaviour. There are those that are induced by having been the victim of physical, verbal or sexual abuse or misinformation. And more. To anecdotally infer from one case to all cases and jump to a whole worldview level assumption -- when there is good evidence on the table that shows demonstratively that the worldview is inescapably self referentially incoherent -- is a gross error. Not to mention, a surprising number of not only physicians but scientists are card-carrying heists, so you are mistaken to infer that the scientists in question are invariably materialists. (And that is before we look a the history of founding scientists and their worldviews; like say that incompetent named Pasteur with his silly germ theory.) Finally, you are using a carefully selected strawman case to distract from and dismiss a significant body of real evidence and issues. On the table is a clear case of evidence pointing to an immaterial First mind responsible for creating the observed cosmos. (As in: this mind is credibly or at minimum arguably antecedent to and the cause of the molecules and mountains you look to for the extent of reality. And as long as science is allow3ed to study origins without materialist blinkers, that will be there as an issue to be faced. After the First Mind, then we see that the material realm does not necessarily exhaust reality, and can look at evidence of the underlying nature of human minds [notice, I am on record above that intelligence may find embodiment and expression in various ways, e.g. conceivable AI systems which are programed . . . I would love a genuinely smart computer!] without the distorting effect of a priori materialism, and with a much more relaxed attitude.) G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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KF:
You are setting up a strawman, in effect prove to me that human ghosts exist; on arbitrary standards of proof you decide.
Well, after having watched a dear family member try to overcome severe clinical depression for years through prayer and increasingly strident faith in The Designer; only to finally find relief in medicine provided to us by materialist researchers who apparently didn't get the memo stating that methodological naturalism was a science stopper. So, yeah, I suppose I do have a higher set of standards of proof.
Others may be interested in telling you duppy stories, but I am not.
I am not surprised. Assuming your conclusion allows you skip going down alot of the dead-end alleys of scientific hypothesis testing and continue marching up the broad boulevard towards the ramparts at the front line of the culture war.efren ts
February 4, 2010
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Cabal; First, such mind-brain research exists. One famous example is the investigator who used a probe to excite the motor area controlling an arm, telling the patient that he was moving the arm. the person moved over the other arm and held down the moving arm, saying no, YOU are moving my arm [i.e. through electrically exciting it as an electrically controlled mechanism]. But this is all besides the point. the issue in design thory is the distinction between material and intelligent causes per empirical evidence, whatever nature[s] intelligence may turn out to have. (Kindly observe above how I have highlighted that BOTH AI-type programed intelligences and minds beyond matter (starting with the First Mind designing the observed cosmos and implementing it) may be possible.] What is decisive is that through an empirical chain of reasoning first to and then from signs of intelligence -- as opposed to chance and/or law, we can identify intelligence with high confidence. And when we do look at the relevant cases of such signs, they point to design of cell-based life on earth and to design of the cosmos we live in. Those points of empirical data may have onward metaphysical import, but that is a secondary issue on what worldview best explains the scientifically grounded facts of signs pointing to design for certain crucial cases. ID, qua scientific project and school of thought, is first and foremost about the grounding of those facts on empirical data and scientific reasoning by well tested induction, and the attempt to use methodological naturalism to cut it off and dismiss it is becoming ever more plainly manifestly an ideological agenda driven imposition. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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ET: You are setting up a strawman, in effect prove to me that human ghosts exist; on arbitrary standards of proof you decide. Others may be interested in telling you duppy stories, but I am not. (Onlookers, pardon the many of us who have therefore chosen to ignore the matter as irrelevant.) On the real issue to be addressed, you have a much bigger "ghost" to deal with than that, and you face a serious inference to best explanation challenge across comparative difficulties of worldview. Especially since your evidently favoured candidate, evolutionary materialism, is demonstrably self-referentially incoherent AND destructively amoral. Going further, the acts of mind are radically divergent from and out of the credible reach of the behaviour of material objects under the influence of chance and mechanical necessity, as has already been highlighted to you by others who have taken more time than I am wont to take just now given that you have either ignored or distorted and dismissed. To top tis off, we are self-aware, intelligent, en-conscienced creatures. And tha tis empirical datum no 1, through which we gain access to te world of molecules and mountains that you have blown up into encompassing all of reality in a materialistic frame. But, on such a frame, all phenomena including reasoning and observing are accounted for on chance + mechanical necessity, which is simply irrelevant to truth, logic or validity ["it works" not being a good criterion of logical correctness or truth]. Consequently, evolutionary materialistic views -- however mediated through genetic inheritance and cultural conditioning etc -- cannot ground the credibility of reasoning that they have to assume to think and argue materialistic thoughts. Indeed, it spectacularly undermines it and self-destructs in a reductio ad absurdum. (Cf the last link above but one for a simple presentation of how that happens.) Worse yet, all this is a red herring led out to a strawman: the real issue is that we have been discussing is the empirical chain of evidence that points to and differentiates the major causal factors: chance, law, intelligence. In that context we have a good (cogent) inductive argument [the standard of WARRANT used in science!] -- repeatedly presented to you among others but just as repeatedly obfuscated, distracted from or ignored -- that shows us how to reliably ans scientifically identify intelligence from its signs. That is the context in which it is evident per good inductive warrant that life is intelligently caused, and the observed cosmos is intelligently caused. Imposing methodological naturalism to impose a priori philosophical evolutionary materialism by the back door is therefore exposed as an ideological power play, not a cogent response. And, onlookers, notice that in trumpeting on how science can only explain by natural causes, the materialists have not been able to give us a coherent account for what "nature" means, and for what the supernatural -- whichthey despise -- means by contrast. but, once we look at he chain of evidence that allows us to study signs of law, chance and intelligence in due proportion, we soon enough see that an extension of the common-sense meaning of "nature" is quite good enough to deal with what is legitimate: natural [material causal chain tracing to forces of necessity and chance] vs artificial [intelligent cause that may use chance and necessity but imposes -often, complex -- functional organisation to achieve its purposes]. The evasiveness and incoherence leading to reductio ad absurdum on the evo mat side and the readiness with which the design approach can address the matter should tell us something important on the real balance of the case on the merits. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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What research has been done on the interface between the immaterial mind and the material brain? For the immaterial mind to have any connection with the manifest, material world, there must be a connection somewhere? The output of the immaterial mind needs a connection, an interface with the material world, to set the vocal chords vibrating to make word 'four' as an answer from the immaterial mind to the question 'what is 2 + 2?' I am very interested in the immaterial mind and hope more information can be given. Has any ID research has been performed to learn the details? I can see many interesting lines of research, like how and when the immaterial mind enters the brain, or is there a communication channel between the brain and a universal mind in another dimension?' Why do only mankind have access to immaterial main, why don't the other apes have immaterial mind? The questions are legio, where can I find any relevant ID literature? Or is the immaterial mind not bound by the laws of cause and effect, like a magical device? IIRC, experiments with brain scanning have shown that more blood goes to the brain while a person is doing calculation in his head. So the brain needs more power when communicating with the immaterial brain? But if that is the case, that also means that there must be energy flow from the brain to the immaterial mind. How can immateriality receive or absorb energy? I could go on and on, as far as I can tell there must ba a huge field of scientific and/or ID research waiting for its Newton, Darwin or Einstein there?Cabal
February 4, 2010
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FG: Is zero [0] a process or an entity? 1? 2? 3? . . . Is the proposition: "Socrates is a Man" an entity or a process? If the former, what is its mass, size and location? If the latter, what is undergoing the process, and what is the process specifically? On what evidence? What about the truth or falsity it expresses? Is: "All men are mortal" an entity or process? Is: the entailed proposition, "Socrates is mortal"? Is the intensionality of the above statements an entity or process? Is the conscious awartenessthat I am thinking the syllogism above an entity or a process? On what grounds? Given that we have at least arguable reason to cosnider the possibility that he observed cosmos is the product of an extra-cosmic intelligence [as already discussed in this thread and elsewhere] is it fair to say that: Without brain molecules there won’t be any minds, nor intelligence. That is in fact the conclusion where all our available evidence actually leads to? And more. But all of this is largely besides the main focus of this thread: it is plain that the imposition of methodological naturalism is only of ideological use, not genuine scientific use. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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KF:
And in that context, evo mat advocates are forced to obfuscate and equivocate on key concepts such as nature, super-nature, intelligence, mind
And still you haven't produced empirical evidence that human intelligence can operate independently of the physical body it associated with. Given that both your desired definition of the scientific process and your inferences to the as-yet-undiscovered designer, I would think that would be the first matter on the agenda. But, everyone seems more interested in sneaking that conclusion in through frontloaded definitions or other rhetorical maneuvers. I will agree with you on one matter. It is truly sad.efren ts
February 4, 2010
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Considering the things that have been said in this thread I have come to realise that many people fail to properly distinguish processes from entities. You can call me a materialist in that I don't believe in the existence of non-material entities, but I most certainly believe in the reality of non-material processes. (for clarity: non-material, because one cannot take the size or weight of a process. What is material are the entities that do the processing, not the process itself). So for me a mind is just as real as the weather - both are immaterial processes, not physical entities. The 'mind' is a process of the physical brain, and it exists in most living people. 'Intelligence' is a particular category of processes of the physical brain, and these processes take place to various degrees in many living entities. Neither 'mind' not 'intelligence' is a material entity yet both definitely exist, and neither is supernatural (which, as I said earlier, is a vacuous word for all intents and purposes synonymous with 'unknown'). However, it is unwarranted to claim that such processes exist without something physical that actually does the processing. Without atmospheric molecules there won't be any weather. Without brain molecules there won't be any minds, nor intelligence. That is in fact the conclusion where all our available evidence actually leads to. fGfaded_Glory
February 4, 2010
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PS: The onlooker ("standing in the Clapham bus stop") is again invited to look at the always linked [cf my handle] presentation on chance, law and intelligence as distinguishable causal factors here, following up with the immediately following flowchart of how such may be distinguished and investigated scientifically. (Indeed the flowchart documents what we routinely do in science, including when the target of our investigation is to identify useful natural regularities, but also when it is important to identify and distinguish stochastic chance and intentional acts. Consider on classic agricultural or medical treatment/control group experiment designs and associated use of ANOVA and factor analysis etc.]kairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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Onlookers (and ET and MN et al): The above would be amusing if it were not so sad in the end:
KF, 263: Don’t you see that you [ET et al] are reversing a burden of proof improperly? It has been shown that we may distinguish chance, law and intelligence per empirical characteristics of events. It turns out that the characteristic features of intelligently caused events or objects — especially organised, functionally specific complexity — are radically diverse from what one reasonably expects of the other two, in empirically observable ways . . . MN, 265: it is StephenB who is failing to meet the burden of proof. He is asserting, implicitly within his definition [NB: an implication is the opposite of an assertion . . . ], that human intelligence is not the result of natural processes. That positive claim requires evidential support . . . . It has been shown that in some cases it is possible to distinguish between the results of actions of humans and the results of non-intelligent processes (e.g. volcanoes). ID proponents have claimed to be able to reliably distinguish between some abstract notion of “intelligence” and non-intelligent processes, but no one has come forward with an actual calculation of CSI (the intelligence metric most often mentioned) for a real biological artifact, taking into account known physics, chemistry, and evolutionary mechanisms. ET, 266: at issue here isn’t that we can distinguish one from the other [i.e. chance and law from intelligence]. The issue is whether they are mutually exclusive categories as you and Stephen assert.
Now of course, in step by step points: 1 --> It was shown above (and in the linked) that diverse aspects of phenomena show empirical -- observable -- consequences of chance, law and intelligence; which have specific, diverse characteristics. 2 --> On that empirical fact, it was concluded that we have good grounds for a scientific inductive generalisation to trusting certain signs or empirical patterns as reliable signposts of chance, law and intelligence. (The last being exemplified by a common known case, humans like ourselves.) 3 --> So, without reference to or excessive dependency on or assumptions drawn from any particular metaphysical theory on the nature of intelligence, as noted above, we have identified certain signs, which signs are in fact a commonplace. 4 --> For example:
functionally specific, complex organisation and underlying information [a la Wicken] that on the gamut of available resources are not reasonably likely to have emerged as a result of a stochastic process, are credibly works of intelligence.
5 --> So strong is this sign, that on thousands of millions of test cases provided by the Internet as a handy ongoing test, there are no known counter-examples. All web pages of 1,000 or more bits length where we see text in functional English etc, [130 - 150 ASCII characters depending on 7- or 8- bit] are known to have been produced by intelligent action. 6 --> As an aside, MN is also wrong as WAC no 27 (" The Information in Complex Specified Information (CSI) Cannot Be Quantified") shows: we have published in the peer review literature from Durston Chiu, Trevors and Abel, a list of 35 published metrics (based on Shannon's H) and values of FSCI -- I use the easiest term to understand in our context -- for biological entities [and in fact for much more than that as the numbers are for families of proteins]. So much for the fallacy of confident assertion of a false, misleading and outdated claim! 7 --> And BTW, that proteins and underlying DNA and cellular machinery and algorithms and language per reliable empirical sign credibly trace to intelligence is still not yet an assertion on the ultimate nature or identity of the relevant intelligences. Just, we know that such language-using, algorithm-designing, automated, self-replicating machinery implementing intelligence plainly antedates cell based life on earth. 8 --> So far, we see that intelligence as a causal factor is empirically observed and experienced, that such intelligence -- whatever its ontological status and possible forms -- is empirically detectable through scientific means [as has been DONE], and that -- through a relevant case -- humans credibly do not exhaust the list. 9 --> Further to this, and given the facts that are on the ground and in Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling (etc., etc.), to impose vague -- willfully undefined (it is nearly 300 posts!) -- concepts of "nature" and "science" then to imagine that "the supernatural" cannot be investigated by science so we can dismiss such results is plainly a back-door censoring imposition of an unexamined metaphysics of demonstrably self-referentially incoherent evolutionary materialism by a de facto, oppressive magisterium. 10 --> By contrast, we can clearly see that to acknowledge that relevant, observed causal factors trace to one or more of (a) natural regularities rooted in mechanical forces [law], and/or (b) credibly undirected stochastic contingency [chance], and (c ) credibly directed contingency [intelligence acting through design] is scientifically fruitful. 11 --> Especially, if science is understood to be progressively seeking the truth about the ways of our world in light of observation and analysis of same. (And ideologically censoring science from seeking the truth by imposing evolutionary materialism a la Lewontin et al is anti-science, not science.) 12 --> Further to this, the distinctions drawn between material (chance and/or law) and intelligent (art or design) causes has long since been shown to be empirically based. It is not MN's mere "assertion." 13 --> Also, it has been shown (long since and again in the above from cases in point: a dropped die that tumbles and comes up with a 5 is a case of all three factors in action . . . ) that in a specific case, all three causes may be at work, but we may distinguish aspects tracing to each, for useful analytical purposes. Most notably, in physics work, we routinely have to abstract out random error and bias from underlying patterns we are interested in. 14 --> Of course as "we" illustrates, intelligence is the cause of the relevant abstracting out and this is inescapably a part of the work of this vital and foundational science. 15 --> So, to distinguish natural causes from art or intelligent cause and to seek means of isolating aspects tracing to relevant factors are scientifically reasonable actions. 16 --> When we turn the signs of intelligence principle to the origin of a credibly fine-tuned, life facilitating cosmos [note again the new empirically based astronomical and cosmological context, and that this next step has routinely been ignored by evolutionary materialism supporting critics above and elsewhere . . . no prizes for guessing why], we see the next level of the issue. 17 --> For, the underlying physics and the observed objects in the cosmos show a pattern of functionally specific complex organisation that supports the existence of C-chemistry, cell based, intelligent life. In short, it is now credible that the cosmos itself is the product of art, not chance and a higher "law" in an assumed wider domain. (And, as Leslie showed so powerfully in the wayback machine form of the onward link from the just linked, this breaks through even the assumed multi-verse models.) 18 --> So now we are looking beyond the observed, credibly contingent cosmos, to the logically necessitated ground for such an entity. And, a very credible candidate for such is an extra-cosmic, intelligent, and powerful designer. [Note the common d; I am not hereby implying personality or specific worldview.] 19 --> Such a designer would be logically and causally prior to -- I here make no assertions on temporality as time itself as we observe it is an object of the origin of our cosmos -- the observed matter and energy space-time cosmos we inhabit. 20 --> And, we have seen how by empirically based means (so long as we do not indulge in a priori imposition of materialism as confessed by Lewontin and others . . . i.e. again, there is an attempted rhetorical turnabout of burden of proof in the intersts of trying to set materialism up as default "scientific" worldview; never mind its self-referential absurdities) we are pointing to something that in a very legitimate sense would be immaterial, intelligent and yet able to act on and into a matter-energy space-time world. 21 --> Thus, we have an empirically based, scientifically meaningful context for seeing as a candidate for cosmological origins, a First Mind that is immaterial and in a very literal sense "super-natural." [That is, beyond the created matter-energy world we inhabit, but capable of acting into it, starting with bringing it into existence.] 22 --> In that context, and as the Derek Smith two-tier controller model (as already linked) helps us conceptualise, we can see how a higher order creative, volitional supervisory controller can supervene informationally on a lower order servo-contoller serving as i/o and memory front-end processor. 23 --> Such a higher order supervisory controller could be in some cases a programmed Artificial Intelligence (here conceived as being able to project various strategies, scenarios and paths and select alternatives using built in heuristics). Thence R Daneel Olivaw and co. 24 --> In other cases, given the credibility of a First Mind, we can see the possibility of an immaterial and even conscious Mind that supervenes on a brain-body system, perhaps even using the sort of quantum selection computer scheme that was suggested above in the thread. 25 --> In support of immateriality of mind, we note that qualia, intensionality, logical abstractions such as propositions and numbers, etc etc are credibly real but radically different from physical, material entities and processes. 26 --> Nor, can we coherently try to reduce mind to matter-configurations produced by and under the control of chance and necessity only. For, the resulting self-referential contradictions end up undermining the life of reason itself, a premise of science. (Onlookers, observe how evo mat advocates never have a truly cogent answer to this.) 27 --> So, we have exposed methodological naturalism as a back-door attempt to smuggle in a censoring constraint on science that blocks it from the free pursuit of the empirical evidence and its best explanation, especially on origins of life, mind, man and cosmos. 28 --> And in that context, evo mat advocates are forced to obfuscate and equivocate on key concepts such as nature, super-nature, intelligence, mind etc. By contrast, design thinkers -- and note the range of actual worldviews across design thinkers and sympathisers in the thread above -- can happily accept and extend the sort of definition we find in hihg quality dictionaries such as Collins [cf. 216 above]:
nature 1. the fundamental qualities of a person or thing; identity or essential character 2. (often capital, esp when personified) the whole system of the existence, arrangement, forces, and events of all physical life that are not controlled by man 3. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) all natural phenomena and plant and animal life, as distinct from man and his creations 4. a wild primitive state untouched by man or civilization . . .
29 --> We see here a clear and unforced, common-sense contrast between [a] the natural (which reflects he primordial condition of the cosmos and its onward spontaneous unfolding through forces and associated mechanical laws and stochastic processes), and [b] the artificial or intelligent and purposeful. 30 --> Moreover, by dint of the existence/ prospect of AI (which is a secondary intelligence tracing to Techne, art!), and by dint of evidence pointing to a First Mind, we can see that such intelligence can be embedded in material objects, but that we must also keep our minds open to the possibility of non-embodied, immaterial intelligence that can be detected through its signs and the contexts of those signs. (NB: oddly, when ID, "the science that studies signs of intelligence," looks at such signs in Biology, it highlights that the observed and inferred circumstances of life on earth do not allow us to infer that the intelligence implicated by such signs is within or beyond the cosmos. And that has been explicitly so since the very first technical ID work, Thaxton et al's The Mystery of Life's Origin, 1984. So, a willful [they have often been corrected but have as a rule insisted on a misrepresentation], sustained well-poisoning misrepresentation by Evo Mat advocates is a part of the problem.) _____________ So, onlookers, we can now see a way forward. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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StephenB:
The comment in 273 says that intelligence can be material or non-material, which it can. So, it couldn’t possibly conflict with anything either way.
Okay.
The comment in the OP refers to “immaterial/non natural causes.” That speaks for itself. For a human, that would be a mind, since a brain would be a material/natural cause.
Well, in the OP you gave human intelligence as an example of an immaterial non-natural cause. So, I will just conclude that the OP was worded poorly, since you really meant the human "mind." One other question. Do you agree that material intelligence must necessarily comply with the laws of nature (heretofore referred to as "law")?efren ts
February 4, 2010
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Clive at 285:
Your feeble attempt at showing brain damage doesn’t prove what you want it to prove, just as if i throw a brick at my stereo speakers it will not broadcast the news properly, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a broadcaster for goodness sakes. It amazes me that you think the speakers are the voice broadcasting the news.
Except, of course, that we can empirically measure the the electical signal in the tuner and the speaker wire. We can empirically measure the RF signal between the radion station and our stero tuner. If we are intrepid enough we could actually locate the physical radion station. We could even shake hands with, and get the autograph of the the disk jockey. I guess I am going to have to ask you the same question that has been posed to Stephen, CJYMan and Kairosfocus. A question which has not been answered yet. Can you prove that human intelligence can operate independently of the body it is associated with.efren ts
February 3, 2010
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agentorange You wanted to know how immaterial thoughts could cause bodily movements. Well, here goes. The Thomistic account I'm putting forward here is not a Cartesian dualist account. On the Thomistic hylomorphic account, the soul is not an immaterial thing that pushes the body round. Rather, its whole identity is bound up with the body. The human soul is simply the defining attribute (substantial form) of the human body - i.e. it is that by virtue of which a human body is human (and not bovine, for instance), and that by which it is a body, rather than a mere aggregation of particles, as a sandpile is. Humans are animals. Thus every act of a human being is an animal act. This is also true of our rational acts: for rationality is simply a human being's distinctive way of being an animal. For Thomists, all of our acts are animal acts, but not all of our acts are bodily acts. In particular, acts of the intellect and free will are not bodily acts. Reasoning and choosing are immaterial processes: they are actions that involve abstract, formal concepts. For rigorous philosophical arguments against materialism, you can go here. (By the way, computers don't perform formal operations; they are simply man-made material devices that are designed to mimic these operations. A computer is no more capable of addition than a cash register, an abacus or a Rube Goldberg machine.) Reasoning is an immaterial activity. This means that reasoning doesn't happen anywhere - certainly not in some spooky soul hovering 10 centimeters above my head. It has no location. Ditto for choice. However, choices have to be somehow realized on a physical level, otherwise they would have no impact on the world. So how can acts of the intellect and the will make the body move, if they are not physical acts? Here's how. The soul doesn't push neurons, as Cartesian dualists think; instead, it selects from one of a large number of quantum possibilities thrown up at some micro level of the brain (some philosophers, including Roddy Doyle, refer to this as the "micro mind"). This doesn't violate quantum randomness, because a selection can be non-random at the macro level but random at the micro level. 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 The above two rows were created by a random number generator. Now suppose I impose the macro requirement: keep the columns whose sum equals 1, and discard the rest. I now have: 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 Each row is still random, but I have imposed a non-random macro-level constraint. That's how my will works when I make a choice. For Thomists, a human being is not two things - a soul and a body - but one being, capable of two radically different kinds of acts - material acts (which other animals are also capable of) and formal, immaterial actions, such as acts of choice and deliberation. In practical situations, immaterial acts of choice are realized as a selection from one of a large number of randomly generated possible pathways. On a neural level, what probably happens when an agent decides to raise his/her arm is this: the arm goes through a large number of micro-level muscular movements (tiny twitches) which are randomly generated at the quantum level. The agent tries all these out over a very short interval of time (a fraction of a second) before selecting the one which feels right - namely, the one which matches the agent's desire to raise his/her arm. This selection continues during the time interval over which the agent raises his/her arm. The wrong (randomly generated quantum-level) micro-movements are continually filtered out by the agent. The agent's selection may indeed reflect his/her character, values and desires - but then again, it may not. We can and do act out of character, and we sometimes act irrationally. Our free will is not bound to act according to reason, and sometimes we act contrary to it (akrasia, or weakness of will, being a case in point). I hope that helps.vjtorley
February 3, 2010
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Adel DiBagno (#272) I'd like to continue with the argument of my revious post, which is that for Aquinas, God is not just a primary cause but a concurrent cause acting in co-operation with every secondary cause in a chain. The importance of this claim is that it weakens the case for leaving God out of science - which is the stated aim of methodological naturalism. After all, why should we leave God out of science, if He has His finger in every pie? I'll begin by directing you to a very interesting little review by Professor Alfred Freddoso, of the Christian philosopher Peter van Inwagen's work, The Place of Chance in a World Sustained by God. For the benefit of readers, I'll quote a couple of paragraphs to set the scene. The name "Peter" refers to Dr. van Inwagen throughout the quote, and the bold type is mine, but the italics are Professor Freddoso's:
On Peter's simplified model of the universe, God creates and sustains (or conserves) the basic entities and their causal powers. This is the extent of His causal contribution to the ordinary course of nature. Like the power generator in the example involving the two pieces of iron, God is at most a remote or mediate (as opposed to immediate or direct) cause of the changes that the basic entities immediately cause in one another. More simply, God supplies the power, and the created entities then move one another. Their movements are not the immediate effects of God's action. Anyone familiar with the medieval debates over secondary or creaturely causation will realize that the position Peter propounds here is stigmatized as (in effect) a form of deism by almost every important medieval Christian philosopher. To be sure, this brand of deism, which I will label weak deism is much more benign from a theistic perspective than that strong deism which limits God's causal role in nature to creation alone. Nonetheless, medieval religious thinkers agree almost unanimously that a central element of orthodox theism is the doctrine that God is an immediate cause of every effect brought about in the created universe, that every such effect results directly from an action of God's. Some of these thinkers go so far in the opposite direction as to claim, astonishingly, that God is the only genuine efficient cause (as opposed to merely "occasional" cause) of such effects - this is the position called occasionalism, and it numbers among its advocates such luminaries as al-Ghazali, Gabriel Biel, and, later on, Malebranche and Berkeley. Most of the scholastics, however, endorse what I will call concurrentism, according to which natural effects derive immediately from both God and creatures. That is to say, in addition to conserving natural entities and their causal powers, God must act with or co-operate with those entities in order for them to bring about their characteristic effects. These effects thus result from God's action and from the action of the relevant created things. However, outside of perhaps a few Latin Averroists, the only medieval Christian thinker I know of who holds the weak deism Peter advocates here is the 14th century Dominican Durandus, whose name came to be the one and only proper name associated with weak deism by later thinkers - among whom I have in mind both concurrentists (e.g., the 16th century Jesuits Luis de Molina and Francisco Suarez), who cite him with mild disapproval, and the occasionalists (e.g., Malebranche and Berkeley), who contemptuously dismiss him. So it is only perhaps by chance, so to speak, that Peter escaped being vilified by Malebranche and Berkeley. The Christian theological tradition, then, is by and large not sympathetic to Peter's account of God's causal role in the ordinary course of nature.
Notice that for the medieval philosophers, including Aquinas, "God is an immediate cause of every effect brought about in the created universe, that every such effect results directly from an action of God's." In other words, when it rains, God directly makes it rain, working in conjunction with natural causes such as clouds. So much for meteorology not needing God! Even if we can do meteorology without adverting to God, there is a very real sense in which every weather change is an act of God. But why should we prefer the concurrentist view, when the weak deist view appears more parsimonious? One very powerful reason is that it makes far better sense of many miracles than weak deism, which requires God to over-rule things' natures when working a miracle. As Professor Freddoso puts it:
The occasionalists and concurrentists are convinced that there are certain miracles recorded in Scripture that weak deism cannot construe other than as events God was able to bring about only by overpowering certain creatures. Think of Shadrach sitting in the fiery furnace. Here we have real human flesh exposed unprotected to real fire, and yet Shadrach survives unscathe - even though the fire is so hot that it consumes the soldiers who usher him into the furnace. How, on the weak deist view, can God save Shadrach? Only, it seems, by either (i) taking from the fire its power to consume Shadrach, which is inconsistent with the soldiers' being incinerated but in any case amounts (or so the anti-deists all claim) to destroying the fire and in that sense overpowering it; or (ii) endowing Shadrach's clothing and flesh with a special power of resistance, in which case God is opposing His creature, the fire; or (iii) placing some impediment (say, an invisible heat-resistant shield) between Shadrach and the flames, in which case God is yet again resisting the power of the fire. By contrast, on the occasionalist and concurrentist models, God accomplishes this miracle simply by withholding His own action. The (real) fire is, as it were, beholden to God's word; He does not have to struggle with it or overcome it or oppose it. The fire's natural effect cannot occur without God's action, and in this case God chooses not to act in the way required. An elegant account, and one that does not in any way give any creature a power that God must oppose.
So, the weak deism which underlies the theistic version of methodological naturalism is not a parsimonious but an awkward theory, when it attempts to account for facts (e.g. miracles) which both you and I acknowledge. Not only that, but even if there were no miracles, there would still be another more parsimonious theory than weak deism: occcasionalism (I don't espouse it myself). For Professor Alfred Freddoso's explanation of why occasionalism is simpler, I'll refer you to this link: http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/macasin.htm Enjoy!vjtorley
February 3, 2010
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Adel DiBagno (#272, #276) Thank you for your posts. I was interested to read your comment in #276:
I am on the side of the Church. Urban VIII was well within the Thomistic tradition in adhering to a phenomenological view of scientific understanding.
If your view of scientific understanding is a phenomenological one, then does that mean you hold the same view of the theory of evolution? Please note that I'm using the word "evolution" here to mean the hypothesis that all living things diverged from a common ancestral stock as a result of natural processes which are still at work in the world today, especially - but not exclusively - through natural selection. Is the theory of evolution, for you, merely a useful hypothesis which explains the appearances (i.e. the variety we find in the natural world), without being true in an absolute sense? I'd be interested to hear your answer to this question. In #272, I thought you summarized your views on the relation between God and nature very clearly:
I agree with Aquinas. In his view, God is the one and only primary cause, the Creator of the Universe and everything in it.* God's created Universe is what we call nature. As Aquinas said, there is true causal power in nature, but it is secondary to God's primary causal role in the whole scheme. Human beings are creatures and are therefore part of nature. Volcanoes are creatures and are therefore part of nature. Both have secondary causal power.
I therefore take it that you would argue that God is not a natural cause, but a supernatural one, and that methodological naturalism doesn't study God. This would fit in with your earlier comment in #32:
You can, without sin or blasphemy, study nature in its own right while leaving God out of the details. Indeed, God's dignity is honored thereby.
Now, if you want to study nature while leaving God out of the picture, then I have no quarrel with that - and neither would Aquinas. For instance, Aquinas' Commentary on Aristotle's Meteorology does not mention the word "God" or "gods," although I found two hits for the word "faith," where Aquinas asserts that the eternity of the world is contrary to faith. Of course, Aquinas says a lot more about God in his commentary on Aristotle's work, The Heavens (De Caelo). I would however strongly disagree with the view that there is something procedurally illicit about using known scientific facts to reason one's way to God's existence - and so would St. Thomas. For as you are undoubtedly aware, Aquinas thought that God's existence could be established from the mere fact that things change (this was his famous First Way). I presume you would reply, however, that the First Way was not a scientific but a philosophical argument. In this respect, Intelligent Design offers an approach to God which contrasts with, but in no way conflicts with, Aquinas' Five Ways. Aquinas reasons his way to God on the basis of everyday empirical facts combined with very reasonable metaphysical assumptions; whereas ID attempts to provide a "metaphysics-free" argument to the existence of a Higher Intelligence, using purely mathematical and scientific premises. It seems to me, though, that you are possibly unaware that for Aquinas, God is not just a primary cause, but also a concurrent cause, acting in conjunction with each and every secondary cause in a causal chain. In other words, God's action is not like this: God -> X -> Y -> Z but like this: God -> X God + X -> Y God + Y -> Z Here, God occupies not one but three roles: primary cause (of X, Y and Z), concurrent cause (with X) of Y, and concurrent cause (with Y) of Z. For Aquinas, then, God is no remote, hands-off Deity. He is actively involved in each causal process in the world. But why did Aquinas envisage God's activity in this way? And how can I claim to be sure that my interpretation of Aquinas is correct here? I'll explain in my next post.vjtorley
February 3, 2010
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----Clive Hayden: "Your feeble attempt at showing brain damage doesn’t prove what you want it to prove, just as if i throw a brick at my stereo speakers it will not broadcast the news properly, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a broadcaster for goodness sakes. It amazes me that you think the speakers are the voice broadcasting the news." Excellent! Illumniating! Concise! Look what can be done with 59 words.StephenB
February 3, 2010
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---efren ts: "Well, there is one thing you could clear up for me." ---"In comment 273, you said…'Intelligence,” which as CJYman has tried to point out more than once, may well be material.'" ---But, in the OP, you state: ---'Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category'" ---"I am struggling to reconcile the two. Are you using different definitions of (im)material in the two statements, or did you mean the “mind” when you wrote “intelligence” in the OP? The comment in 273 says that intelligence can be material or non-material, which it can. So, it couldn't possibly conflict with anything either way. The comment in the OP refers to "immaterial/non natural causes." That speaks for itself. For a human, that would be a mind, since a brain would be a material/natural cause. Intelligent agency, as a scientific construct, is non-natural, but it may be either material or non-material. Mind is a more specific kind of intelligence, being both non-natural and immaterial. Thus, both intelligence in the general sense and "mind" in the specific sense, are non-natural causes. Hence, the critical importance of definitions.StephenB
February 3, 2010
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agentorange,
I don’t think we can, yet, accurately know what one is thinking as a thought is occurring, as in ‘they are thinking about shaving’, however we do have evidence of when a person is thinking in certain modes of thought, e.g love, disgust, hatred, etc. so these thoughts are readily identifiable in neural scans. In this sense thoughts of fairly specific things are & have been measured.
Do you not understand that any conclusion that thoughts of love or disgust having any bearing on anything in the brain came as a result of asking the person what they were thinking of? This knowledge wasn't gained by any other way. This is a mind communicating with another mind, not a geometrical assessment that obtained this knowledge, even by categories such as love or disgust, much less individual thoughts within those categories. I'm going to ask you again, how do geometrical measurements obtain knowledge of thoughts, with no regard and no reference to asking the subject what they were thinking? If "is" can produce "ought" tell me how. Please, no obfuscation and no category mistakes here, tell me how geometrical measurements tell us what thoughts are occurring? And tell me how geometrical measurements can produce truth, and can do so by comparison to other geometrical measurements? Your feeble attempt at showing brain damage doesn't prove what you want it to prove, just as if i throw a brick at my stereo speakers it will not broadcast the news properly, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a broadcaster for goodness sakes. It amazes me that you think the speakers are the voice broadcasting the news.Clive Hayden
February 3, 2010
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StephenB at 278:
You are always offering but never producing.
Well, to be fair, I am still waiting on you to answer the question I posed in comment 207. Once we have that matter out of the way we can proceed on our way.
You will notice that, to their credit, they felt no need to buy time or chart out a series of “steps” through which they would eventually disclose their definitions.
A slight meta-comment. When arguments are laid out in great detail in a single comment, the subsequent discussion usually goes horribly awry. Selective editting, veering off into side issues, and so on. Going step-wise makes sure that we stay on task and know exactly what we mean and draw reasonable conclusions in the process. But, if you don't have time for such an effort, I certainly understand. With this awful winter weather, I have chores stacked up like cordwood.
However, my door is always open.
Well, there is one thing you could clear up for me. In comment 273, you said:
...“Intelligence,” which as CJYman has tried to point out more than once, may well be material.
But, in the OP, you state:
Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category.
I am struggling to reconcile the two. Are you using different definitions of (im)material in the two statements, or did you mean the "mind" when you wrote "intelligence" in the OP?efren ts
February 3, 2010
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CJYman:"Depends on how one defines “material.” AS I’ve already stated, consciousness is subjective, so if material — matter/energy — is objective, we have two completely different classes of phenomenon. Conscious/subjective/immaterial and matter/energy/objective/material." Wuick point before I have to dash out....Conciousness can, and is, objectively measured everyday across this country and the world. The Glasgow coma scale is a reliable measure, and assessment of conciousness. To say that conciousness is subjective is incorrect.Acipenser
February 3, 2010
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---efren ts: "Actually, I did offer to do just that and we had taken a first step in that direction, but you indicated that you would be very busy this week and wouldn’t have time." You are always offering but never producing. Seversky and Adel have already made an unsuccessful run at it, but I was very appreciative of their effort and followed with a gentle response with suggestions for improvement. You will notice that, to their credit, they felt no need to buy time or chart out a series of "steps" through which they would eventually disclose their definitions. In any case, it is no longer necessary for you to respond, because, as you may have noticed @275, I provided your answer and agentorange's response for both of you. However, my door is always open.StephenB
February 3, 2010
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---Adel Dibagno: "I agree with Aquinas. In his view, God is the one and only primary cause, the Creator of the Universe and everything in it.*" Thank you for trying, but that doesn't even come close to working. If God is the definition of "natural cause," which is the definition I asked for, and if methodological naturalism studies only natural causes, which is its rule, that would mean that Methodological naturalism studies God. Please try again. At least you are trying, which separates you from you MN bretheren.StephenB
February 3, 2010
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StephenB:
Obviously, the Darwinists will never answer my questions, they never do.
Actually, I did offer to do just that and we had taken a first step in that direction, but you indicated that you would be very busy this week and wouldn't have time. I hope that your presence here now indicates that whatever was keeping you busy has passed. If so, we can pick up where we left off at comment 207.efren ts
February 3, 2010
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Obviously, the Darwinists will never answer my questions, they never do. So, I will provide their answers for them. Question: What is a natural cause? Answer: Anything I want it to be depending on how the argument is going. Or it can be anything and everything you can think of. Come to think of it, there are no other kinds of causes. Question: What is a mind? Answer: A mind is a material brain with a new name. I give it a new name to create the illusion of reasonableness and to muddy the debate waters because, in truth, I believe only in brains. Question: What is intelligence? Answer: If I am arguing against ID, it is synonymous with a mind, but if I am covering my anatomy as a MN advocate, it is an extension of a material brain. Question: Is a tornado and a burglar the same kind of cause? Answer: It is the same kind of cause unless someone points out the difference, in which case it suddenly becomes a different kind of cause, except that it really is the same kind of a cause. Question: If a burglar is motivated by an immaterial mind, is he, then, a supernatural cause? Answer: Yes, of course. Anything non-material is classified as Supernatural. Question: If a burglar is motivated by a material brain, does he then, become a natural cause? Answer: Yes, of course. There are many kinds of natural causes, and a burglar is just one of many, Question: Are you saying that a burglar could be either a natural or a supernatural cause? That is correct, Question: But how can a thing both be and not be at the same time. Answer: For Darwinists, TEs, and MN advocates, all things are possible. Besides, you can’t really hold me to that because I have never really defined a natural cause. I prefer to shift the discussion to ID definitions already in place. It is a lot easier to criticize someone else’s definition rather than provide your own, especially after having been asked to do so. Question: Were the builders of Pompeii's artifacts the same kind of cause as the valcano that buried them? Answer: Yes and no. See above answer for the tornado and the burglar. Question: How can you decide whether or not a burglar is a natural or a supernatural cause until you discern whether or not his creativity comes from a mind or a brain? Answer: I don't worry about things like that.StephenB
February 3, 2010
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vjtorley @246, What a delightful post. You wrote:
St. Thomas appears to adopt an “anti-realist” approach to scientific hypotheses here. He has an interesting ally: I believe Steve Hawking puts forward a similar view in A Brief History of Time.
And then you brought up the Galileo case, and asked:
I’m just curious. Galileo was the realist here, insisting that the heliocentric theory was the absolute truth. Whose side do you take in this affair?
I am on the side of the Church. Urban VIII was well within the Thomistic tradition in adhering to a phenomenological view of scientific understanding. Galileo appears to have been carried away by his own brilliance in making an absolute claim that was not fully supported by evidence. The fact that he was shown to be right by history does not excuse his overreach.Adel DiBagno
February 3, 2010
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Mustela to CJYman "The claim on the table is clearly that the mind (and other entities claimed to exist) are immaterial. That certainly isn’t supported by any peer-reviewed data or the known laws of physics." No, it is not on the table, at least not as an argument. A "mind," which by any rational definition, is immaterial, is not synonymous with "Intelligence," which as CJYman has tried to point out more than once, may well be material. Try to read for context. I was providing a definition of "mind" for agentorange and effrents, who, like yourself, timidly refuse to provide their own definitions for any of their arguments, which means, of course, that neither you nor they are even making arguments--or, for that matter, following arguments. I was not saying that the design inference to agency requires a mind, which it doesn't. Contrary to effrent's and agentorange's confusion, a definition is not an argument. From a scientific perspective, ruling out natural causes does not lead to or imply claims about the existence of a "mind." What becomes clear is that none of you understand either the process of a design inference or the implications of your own standard of methodological naturalism.StephenB
February 3, 2010
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CJYman, @273 “no critic has provided a useful definition of “natural” that can be used in the term “methodological naturalism” in such a way as to remove ID Theory from being considered as science” They did in Dover, & eferen ts & I mentioned (I just earlier In 272 did!) how what is considered as natural is in part not just what is measureable & testable, but also that which acts & works within the confines of known natural laws. This is precisely why to explain the flagella Behe says that natural laws + chance are insufficient to explain it, but rather a transcendent super being which can act above & beyond the know natural laws is required. “except that intelligence is founded on patterns not defined by physics and chemistry” C’mon pal, come back off the deep end, the physical brain clearly works within the bounds of chemistry and physics. “What does this have to do with violating law of physics and chemistry?” One could reason as others & I did, that the OP ed is of the opinon that the physical medium of the brain, or something physically comparable like a super CPU isn’t required for the mind, nor intelligence. Still waiting on that one… Well, for one it’s to assume that 1) such violations of such laws are possible despite zero evidence of it. 2)That such violations occurs via a super being which isn’t material, nor testable or measurable by science itself at any level. This would be how Behe explained the formation of the flagella in that no known natural law(s) nor w/ chance could provide a reasonable conclusion that it’s possible, thus a transcendent being is introduced. In this sense, it’s an assertion that non material beings are involved in the world & that science has to incorporate untestable notions of this sort.agentorange
February 3, 2010
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StephenB wrote:
Sorry, Adel, but it doesn’t work. Everyone knows what a dessert is. On the other hand, no one knows what a Darwinist means by a natural cause. There hilarity comes from watching them trying to categorize that which has not yet been defined. But thank you for playing.
On the contrary, my little satire makes once again a point that has been repeatedly made by others on this thread: a given entity can have more than one property. A dessert can be a baked item or a fruit. A natural cause can be a human being or a volcano eruption. There is nothing unnatural about human beings.
In keeping with that point, would you care to rescue your comrades and explain what you mean by a natural cause?
I agree with Aquinas. In his view, God is the one and only primary cause, the Creator of the Universe and everything in it.* God’s created Universe is what we call nature. As Aquinas said, there is true causal power in nature, but it is secondary to God’s primary causal role in the whole scheme. Human beings are creatures and are therefore part of nature. Volcanoes are creatures and are therefore part of nature. Both have secondary causal power. *I part company with Aquinas in viewing such entities as devils and angels as part of creation, because I can’t verify their existence or causal power.Adel DiBagno
February 3, 2010
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