Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
PS: FG, once you have made clear that your definition of "God" is idiosyncratic , then it becomes a simple exercise to correct the error. But if instead one wanders all over the world of ideas refusing to be clear and distinct in his or her terms, that simply invites confusion and deadlock. Worse, in the case of deceptive rhetors trying to defend an established order that has passed tis sell-by date on the merits, such obfuscation is a well known cynical resort. So, to make sure we are neither deceivers ourselves not taken in by them, the pursuit of clarity becomes doubly important. So, Wiki on definition is vital and apt:
A definition is a formal passage describing the meaning of a term (a word or phrase). The term to be defined is the definiendum (plural definienda). A term may have many different senses or meanings. For each such specific sense, a definiens (plural definientia) is a cluster of words that defines it . . . . An intensional definition, also called a connotative definition, specifies the necessary and sufficient conditions for a thing being a member of a specific set. Any definition that attempts to set out the essence of something, such as that by genus and differentia, is an intensional definition. An extensional definition, also called a denotative definition, of a concept or term specifies its extension. It is a list naming every object that is a member of a specific set. So, for example, an intensional definition of 'Prime Minister' might be the most senior minister of a cabinet in the executive branch of government in a parliamentary system. An extensional definition would be a list of all past, present and future prime ministers. One important form of the extensional definition is ostensive definition. This gives the meaning of a term by pointing, in the case of an individual, to the thing itself, or in the case of a class, to examples of the right kind. So you can explain who Alice (an individual) is by pointing her out to me; or what a rabbit (a class) is by pointing at several and expecting me to 'catch on'. The process of ostensive definition itself was critically appraised by Ludwig Wittgenstein.[2] An enumerative definition of a concept or term is an extensional definition that gives an explicit and exhaustive listing of all the objects that fall under the concept or term in question. Enumerative definitions are only possible for finite sets and only practical for relatively small sets . . . . Traditionally, a definition consists of the genus (the family) of thing to which the defined thing belongs, and the differentia (the distinguishing feature which marks it off from other members of the same family). Thus triangle is defined as a plane figure (genus) bounded by three straight sides (differentia)
But, in the end, you have here shown why it is important -- and functional in serious discussions -- to first treat definitions as expressing meaning clearly, THEN ask whether they make sense on being examined closely as to what hey really mean, and as to how that relates to credible facts and issues. A praxis that is as old in philosophy as the Socratic Dialogues. This is part of why no educated person should be unacquainted with these works. (The exchange in The Laws, Bk X -- and note the pivotal definitional discussion on soul vs life therein -- is especially relevant to the issues being dealt with above.)kairosfocus
February 2, 2010
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Ah yes: At length, we now have more or less a clear view of what ET and AO et al seem to mean when they use the term "nature." Turns out, they are thinking -- surprise [not!] -- in the well-known, physicalist, evolutionary materialist school of thought, in which mind reduces to neuronal networks and their action potentials and pulse patterns. Thus, "nature" to them is in effect that familiar, commonly experienced entity which can be observed or measured in some ideal form of the sciences, especially the physical sciences: matter, energy, space, time and combinations and interactions thereof. So, for them, it starts with a big bang and proceeds through chance circumstances and mechanical forces through hydrogen, supernovae, galaxies and solar systems to life originating by chemical evolution, then diversifying through Darwinian [or similar] macro-evolutionary mechanisms to form body plans up to and including our own. This comfortable Lewontinian picture, however, rhetorically glides over a few gaps, causing it to reduce to absurdity (as Feser highlighted): 1 --> Lewontin's core problem is the imposition of a priori materialism, i.e. mere methodological naturalism has now become full blown a priori philosophical materialism. (If you assume that only matter, energy, space and time are possible or credible objects of investigation, then it is no surprise that you will only find and observe or measure such in your investigations and proffered explanations and causal chains.) 2 --> This grand question begging exercise under the name "methodological naturalism" also subverts science from being an unfettered investigation into the truth of the cosmos based on empirical data, especially when the direct control imposed by observation in the present is removed when we try to practice origins science. 3 --> As Philip Johnson therefore aptly rebuked Lewontin:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. When the public understands this clearly, Lewontin’s Darwinism will start to move out of the science curriculum and into the department of intellectual history, where it can gather dust on the shelf next to Lewontin’s Marxism. [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77, pp. 22 – 25. November 1997.]
4 --> Underlying is the prestige/ appeal to authority issue. For, "science" in our day is often regarded as the golden key to all knowledge, wisdom and progress. However two fatal errors lurk. 5 --> First, the categorical error, from Lewontin's 1997 NYRB remarks:
the problem is to get [ordinary people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth . . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . . 
6 --> But isn't that "obvious"? Not at all: it is an unrecognised self-refuting claim. For, "science [is] the only begetter of truth" is not a claim of science or within science or the product of its methods, but instead a philosophical assertion, a claim about epistemology. So, it necessarily refers to and contradicts itself, as it is a philosophical knowledge claim that asserts that only scientific knowledge claims are possible. Oops. 7 --> Moreover, there is a massive quesiton-begging at work, once we see that the remote past is inescapably unobservable: we simply were not there, so we can only infer to it, and compare alternative explanations or narratives, to see which is the best explanation in light of trends, traces and processes in the present that seem to be relevant. But, if one rules out ahead of time that the fine-tuned delicately balanced and evidently complex and organised cosmos could have been the product of art, one has subverted the inference to best explanation process by spectacularly begging the question. 8 --> And if such question-begging has become institutionally entrenched, then the reason why "To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality" becomes painfully obvious: the scientists in question are living in a materialistic hall of mirrors and are seeing reflections of their philosophical assumptions, not the patent truth about the world. 9 --> And for that, the use of loaded language is a telling sign: "demons." 10 --> As a result, the materialist magisterium has subverted origins science into a mythology enforced by power and by manipulative rhetoric, now to be imposed on the general public through misinformation-laced miseducation and even indefensible redefinitions of science. 11 --> When it comes to accounting for the origin of man, mind and morals, the problems with self-referential incoherence become painfully plain. For instance, neuronal action potentials are in terms of millivolts and pulse repetition rates are in pulses per second, not terms of"true" or "false" or "rational" or "just." that is physical instantiation of organised information processing systems and the meaningful, conscious mental processes associated therewith are radically diverse as to core characteristics. 12 --> Nor is this news. Leibniz long ago wrote this in his reflections on the mill as an analogy of brain vs mind:
17. It must be confessed . . . that perception [i.e. the conscious experience], and that which depends upon it [mental thinking], are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is to say, by figures and motions. Supposing that there were a machine whose structure produced thought, sensation, and perception, we could conceive of it as increased in size with the same proportions until one was able to enter into its interior, as he would into a mill. Now, on going into it he would find only pieces working upon one another, but never would he find anything to explain perception. It is accordingly in the simple substance [i.e. what he termed a monad, a fundamental entity of as yet unidentified nature . . . a common enough exercise in the sciences by the way where unobserved core concepts and objects are routinely used, e.g. in physics], and not in the compound nor in a machine that the perception is to be sought. Furthermore, there is nothing besides perceptions and their changes to be found in the simple substance. And it is in these alone that all the internal activities of the simple substance can consist.
13 --> But also, there is a serious dynamical problem on explaining the origin of a credible, reasoning mind on evolutionary materialist premises:
[evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature [from hydrogen to humans]. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . .
14 --> For years, I have noted materialists at UD and elsewhere trying to evade or dismiss this, or even to say nihilistically that this is "the truth" that we have to live with [as Prof Feser notes], but they have never come up with a cogent answer that implies that on evolutionary materialist premises we can solidly GROUND the credibility of the minds -- of whatever ultimate nature, we definitely reason, perceive, are conscious and en-conscienced, so we might as well use this term -- that we have to use to think materialist thoughts. 15 --> And so, we come back to the imposition of methodological naturalism as a censoring rule on science and its damaging consequences. 16 --> Plainly, in its own right, it is censoring out live option possible explanatory and causal factors on origins [too often, in service to a materialist ideology in not only the institutions of science and education but the civilisation as a whole . . . which brings up the inherent and radically destructive amorality and relativism of evolutionary materialism] , and so subverts origins science from being able to exercise an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible), progressive search for the truth about our world based on observation, credible empirical evidence and reasoned discussion and analysis among the informed. 17 --> But also, such impositions and associated ruthlessly amoral rhetorical and institutional politics tactics are corrupting of science as an institution, and that is a critical issue given the importance of science to our survival and thriving in the C21. 18 --> in particular, as functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information have emerged as key concepts and objects over the past sixty years, we have come to see that science is poised to go through another revolution, the design revolution. but, the materialist old guard are fighting tooth and nail to preserve their privileged position. 19 --. So, let us lastly ponder the implications of Wicken's remarks:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems.  Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and note added.) HT: VJT]
___________ So, StephenB has obviously put his finger on a vital issue. Great opening post as a contributor at UD! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 2, 2010
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Clive and StephenB: The question if we can trust our thoughts is not settled by what we assume as explanation for their origin, but by how well our thoughts and their fruits correspond to the reality that exist outside ourselves. That empirical correspondence is the actual basis for science and its methodology - not philosophical musings that an immaterial mind may cause our thoughts. The moment we can't examine this correspondence we abandon the only criterion we have for considering our thoughts true or false. Since we have no way to examine the correspondence between our thoughts and the 'supernatural' we will never know if our thoughts about that relate to reality or are mere illusions. This is why I personally equate 'supernatural' with 'unknown' and why science, the business of establishing what is true and false in the external reality, has no use for the concept. fGfaded_Glory
February 2, 2010
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StephenB at 208:
efren ts: “Not quite yet.” Not quite ever. You will never answer my questions. Nor will agent orange.
Yes I will, Stephen, but first we need to establish a few foundational understandings. Surely, you won't quibble with that given your earlier insistence that we clearly define our terms.efren ts
February 2, 2010
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StephenB said: ----------------- The purpose of a definition is to explain what one means and what one doesn’t mean. To say that natural causes does not mean intelligence is to define one’s terms. If only you would do that. Also, the definition precedes the analysis and not the other way around. The purpose for defining terms is not to argue but to clarify and makes sense of what it is that you are about to argue. ----------------- Nice. Let's try this approach. Say we want to debate the existence of God. I define the term 'God' as 'an imaginary all-powerful being that created the universe'. Next, I claim that God doesn't exist, and not surprisingly I comfortably trash you in the debate. Do you really not see why this is a pointless approach to debating? fGfaded_Glory
February 2, 2010
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agentorange (#196) Thank you for your post. You write:
Our thoughts are a product of the collective activity of neurons, & our neurons reliably transmit information about the world around us. Therefore our thoughts can be trusted.
On your account, our thoughts can't really be trusted to do much at all. To be sure, they can transmit information of the "red-patch-here-now" variety. But why should we trust them to formulate speculative hypotheses (e.g. Darwinism, or the Big Bang theory) in an intellectual effort to make sense of that information? On a Darwinian account, all we can be sure of is that whatever hypothesis we eventually come to adopt, it's not likely to be one that reduces our biological fitness. But that doesn't make it true - nor its negation false. Come to think of it, where do Darwinists get the notion of "true" from? "Truth" cannot be reduced to reproductive success - or any other kind of success. To see what's really wrong with Methodological Naturalism and why it undermines thought, you might like to have a look at these two well-argued posts by Professor Edward Feser: Rosenberg on naturalism Rosenberg responds to his critics Happy hunting!vjtorley
February 1, 2010
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[Answer my question.] ---efren ts: "Not quite yet." Not quite ever. You will never answer my questions. Nor will agent orange. I think the theme of this post has been more than confirmed. Have a great week everyone---including the MN advocatees.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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StephenB:
This is the point that effrents doesn’t seem to understand. To define is not to argue or prove the existence of anything.
Oh, I understand perfectly what is going on. As is typical, you are trying to game the system by slipping unwarranted assumptions in unnoticed at the beginning so that the subsequent discussion can only end up where you want it to. And your protestations notwithstanding, you are still trying to sneak an as-yet unsupported assertion into the discussion via the seemingly innocuous definition. I certainly understand that is your definition and your whole grand proof rests on that definition being true. But, if you wish anyone other than Jerry or Clive to accept your definition, you first have to support the embedded assertion. So, again I offer to accept your definition once you prove that human intelligence can operate independently of the physical body it is associated with. With that small matter out of the way you can go on to dazzle me with your brilliance.
”Do you agree that humans have a physical form and exist in the physical world? Yes or no.” Yes. Do you see how easy it is to give a straight answer to a straight question? Go thou and do likewise, beginning with the one above.
Not quite yet. We have a few other matters yet to come to a meeting of the minds with regard to. Based on my definition of nature as "the physical world which can be studied, tested, and understood through sensory observation," please state unequivocally how you think what is classically defined as "artificial" comports itself with that definition.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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We have to define a “natural cause,” because MN studies natural causes. We know that a tornado is a natural cause. What I need to know is if my infamous burglar, who was differentiated from that tornado due to his purposeful activity, is also a natural cause–that is–are the tornado and the burglar the same kind of cause. ---effrents: "Your question is poorly constructed, but I think we can get past it if you answer one simple question. Do you agree that humans have a physical form and exist in the physical world? Yes or no." You didn't way why it was poorly constructed, which probably means that it was not poorly constructed. It seems rather that you are not predisposed to answering it. ---"Do you agree that humans have a physical form and exist in the physical world? Yes or no." Yes. Do you see how easy it is to give a straight answer to a straight question? Go thou and do likewise, beginning with the one above.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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---agentorange: "Indeed we do have evidence that minds exist, but regrettably for you the only evidence is of the physical sort." Once again we have the same problem. You are not defining your terms. Except for epiphenominalists, who seek to have it both ways, everyone knows that a mind is thought to be an immaterial entity, as is the soul, as is the will, and everyone knows that the brain is a material physical organ. So, when you hear me speak of mind, be sure that I am referring to an immaterial faculty of the soul, which, as long as it is housed in a body, cannot function in the absence of a physical brain, but can, nevertheless do things that the brain cannot do, indeed, can do nobler things than the brain can do and, to some extent, can control the brain's impulses. Outside the body, that may be a different matter. Note that I am not arguing for the existence of these things, I am telling you what I mean when I use the term. This is the point that effrents doesn't seem to understand. To define is not to argue or prove the existence of anything. It is to explain what you mean when you use the language so people can know what you are talking about. It is the immaterial mind that I say reason provides much evidence for. When you say "we do have evidence that minds exist," what do you mean when you use the word, mind. Everyone knows we have a physical organ in our head; that is no revelation.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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Steven:
Yes, but we have to define a “natural cause,” because MN studies natural causes. We know that a tornado is a natural cause. What I need to know is if my infamous burglar, who was differentiated from that tornado due to his purposeful activity, is also a natural cause–that is–are the tornado and the burglar the same kind of cause.
Your question is poorly constructed, but I think we can get past it if you answer one simple question. Do you agree that humans have a physical form and exist in the physical world? Yes or no.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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---effrents; "Fien, nature is the physical world which can be studied, tested, and understood through sensory observation. Yes, but we have to define a "natural cause," because MN studies natural causes. We know that a tornado is a natural cause. What I need to know is if my infamous burglar, who was differentiated from that tornado due to his purposeful activity, is also a natural cause--that is--are the tornado and the burglar the same kind of cause. If so, would that mean that if the burglar's choice is motivated by an immaterial mind, and not his brain, he then becomes supernatural cause, but if his choice is motivated by a material mind/brain, then he is a only a natural cause after all? Similarly, I need to know if the agents that built Pompeii's are the same kind of cause as the valcano that buried it. Or is it the case that if the agents who built Pompeii were motivated by immaterial minds, they would then be supernatural causes, but it they were motivated by material brains/mind, they would be, under those circumtstances, natural causes.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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"We’ve both repeatedly held that nature/natural is that which is physical, measurable, & testable," This means that what you hold to be nature/natural is supernatural!!! Vividvividbleau
February 1, 2010
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----agentorange: “We’ve both repeatedly held that nature/natural is that which is physical, measurable, & testable, while the immaterial, ethereal world which doesn’t follow according to natural laws which you espouse consists of non material beings, aptly known as the supernatural which isn’t testable.” I am going to be respectful here, because you are beginning to address the issue. Using my example of the burglar and the tornado, are you saying that the tornado is a natural cause and the burglar is a supernatural cause?-- and that the valcano that buried pompeii was a natural cause, while the humans that built Pompeii were supernatural causes? ----“Also, we’ve both held that physical natural beings like us using intelligence to build/create isn’t supernatural/non natural/non material, as such actions in nature so as for we know are restricted to natural laws” Or, are you saying here that human beings are natural causes? Are human beings, acting as causal agents, natural causes or supernatural causes?StephenB
February 1, 2010
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Stephen at 188:
—effrents: “But I am a generous soul... If you were a generous soul, you would do me the courtesy of defining “nature.”
I did. And I even told you where to find it in the exact same comment that you quoted above. Good googly moogly, Stephen, it was two paragrap comment and you managed to completely miss one of them.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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agentorange,
Are you saying, is the Scientific method itself testable? I trust I don’t have to go into how, why it’s among the most historically accurate methods of investigation of reality we’ve ever concieved.
Of course you're welcome to this philosophy, but it cannot be tested nor measured in the same way that the philosophy demands, so it becomes self-referentially incoherent when applied to itself.Clive Hayden
February 1, 2010
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agentorange,
Therefore our thoughts can be trusted.
I agree. The entire purpose is that they can't be trusted on the grounds of materialism. If you ask me why, I will suspect that you don't understand the last three or four comments I have made to you.Clive Hayden
February 1, 2010
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agentorange -- did you miss post 171?tribune7
February 1, 2010
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Clive @184, “If your thoughts were the product of material movements, no thoughts would be objectively true outside of their physical parameters and movements, ... If you take all thoughts to be the result of chemical stimuli, then that thought is itself a result of chemical stimuli, but so would wrong thoughts be also, and no objective or independent thought will get you out of this box of material causation”” Yes Clive I am familiar with this ‘we can’t trust our thought’s premise. Here, I have a little thought experiment for you & anyone else who holds this position to see if you can trust your thoughts. 1) Go & find a nice metal hammer. Got one? Good. Now while it make look like a hammer, & feel like a hammer, those are only thoughts, which you can’t trust. So it probably isn’t a hammer. 2) Lay your left hand down on table. Don’t worry knowledge that your hand is on the table is merely a thought, which you obviously can’t trust. 3) Now take the hammer in the right hand & smash your left hand, & do so repeatedly. For those of you stupid enough to proceed with this experiment don’t worry that sensation you’re felling ‘pain’, it’s just a thought in your head & you really can’t trust it. But I am pretty sure the majority of you refused to play along. Why? Simple. You know as well as I that our thoughts are reliable & can be trusted. You didn’t hit your hand with the hammer b/c you trusted your thoughts. The consistency of our senses within & between individuals is all anyone needs to know we can trust our thoughts. But science has gone further in recording neurons within brains we can study what causes them to fire, how they communicate, what information they carry & transmit, & how reliable they are. Our thoughts are a product of the collective activity of neurons, & our neurons reliably transmit information about the world around us. Therefore our thoughts can be trusted.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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Clive @191, “Is this philosophy of naturalism itself physical, measurable, and testable?” Are you saying, is the Scientific method itself testable? I trust I don’t have to go into how, why it’s among the most historically accurate methods of investigation of reality we've ever concieved.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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I have a question. What has a non material mind have to do with ID or methodological naturalism? Isn't this the usual claptrap used to get religion into the discussion. I haven't been following the discussion just the inane replies to my few comments and then the recent comments of the anti ID people which are also fatuous. So it is quite possible I missed somethingjerry
February 1, 2010
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vjtorley, Thanks for your comment. I read the post that you referenced and while it contains some interesting information that was new to me, I regret that I don't agree with your opinions about what the Medieval theologians were driving at. I think that you, like StephenB, have a different view of history that comports with your notion of an interventionist deity along the lines of your further comment:
I would also add that defining methodological naturalism as “the study of natural (secondary) causes” is not accurate. Methodological naturalism is more than the investigation of secondary causes; it is the total exclusion of the Primary Cause (God) from the domain of science.
I submit that the Medieval theologians whom Seversky and I cited excluded God's intervention from the communis cursus naturae centuries ago.Adel DiBagno
February 1, 2010
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StephenB, @186 “I didn’t say that we don’t have evidence that minds “exist,” which we clearly do, I said that we don’t know how they work, which we clearly don’t.” Indeed we do have evidence that minds exist, but regrettably for you the only evidence is of the physical sort. Saying we don’t have a fully comprehensive understanding for the self is not sufficient to claim that in the absence of the physical holder it can remain. If anything all the evidence is to the contrary to the notion of a non material mind, humans or otherwise, as the ‘self’ is an aggregate emergent property. At any rate you’re advocating that the self/mind which is physically bound to the brain can (somehow?) exist despite the material which constitutes it is non existent or has ceased to exist in the same organized pattern that previously existed. Your position is that in the absence of the physical brain the mind/self can exist, (can you please detail this?) & you appear to make some claims as to knowing how it non materially works, this is an interesting claim, but it demands some extraordinary evidence.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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agentorange,
We’ve both repeatedly held that nature/natural is that which is physical, measurable, & testable,
Is this philosophy of naturalism itself physical, measurable, and testable? It's metaphysical, so how would you measure it as physical? How would you so measure dignity or free will or music theory, to name a few immaterial things that must be supernatural to you?Clive Hayden
February 1, 2010
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StephenB, “agentorange and effrents keep dodging the issue” We’ve both repeatedly held that nature/natural is that which is physical, measurable, & testable, while the immaterial, ethereal world which doesn’t follow according to natural laws which you espouse consists of non material beings, aptly known as the supernatural which isn’t testable. Also, we’ve both held that physical natural beings like us using intelligence to build/create isn’t supernatural/non natural/non material, as such actions in nature so as for we know are restricted to natural laws. I asked for evidence of how a non material mind works, or how could it work as you describe it, or as efren ts put it, in the absence of any proof that intelligence can operate independently of the physical form (do you have such evidence?) you persist that a non material mind is tenable. Certainly non material/non physical is defined, but regrettably rather than demonstrating how it works, we get told such a question as to how it works, & how you know it works is as you eloquently put it – irrelevant.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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Stephen B,
Adel, excuse me, but you have not yet explained why secondary causes relate to this discussion.
It seems obvious to me, but I am not communicating on your wavelength, so I will retire. Thanks for your time and good efforts.Adel DiBagno
February 1, 2010
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---effrents: "But I am a generous soul..... If you were a generous soul, you would do me the courtesy of defining "nature."StephenB
February 1, 2010
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StephenB:
I didn’t say that we don’t have evidence that minds “exist,” which we clearly do, I said that we don’t know how they work, which we clearly don’t.
Yet you are absolutely certain that they are outside of nature. Good jump, Stephen. I thought for a moment the shark was going to get you. But you pulled it off with nary a hair out of place.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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---agentorange: "Right Clive, but don’t tell Jerry or StephenB that in the absence of evidence for such an assertion of a non material mind being real that they admit to not knowing. Let’s not create needless double standards okay?" Once again, you fall into a serious logical lapse. I didn't say that we don't have evidence that minds "exist," which we clearly do, I said that we don't know how they work, which we clearly don't. But I suppose anything that will distract attention away from the main theme of the thread and your consistent refusal to define "nature" is productive from your point of view.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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agentorange, "I am not going to maintain that what I call Transposition is the only possible mode whereby a poorer medium can respond to a richer, but I claim that it is very hard to imagine any other. It is therefore, at the very least, not improbable that Transposition occurs whenever the higher reproduces itself in the lower. Thus, to digress for a moment, it seems to me very likely that the real relation between the mind and body is one of Transposition. We are certain that, in this like at any rate, thought is intimately connected with the brain. The theory that thought therefore is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense, for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction, but of which it would be meaningless to use the words “true” or “false.” We are driven then to some kind of correspondence. But if we assume a one-for-one correspondence, this means that we have to attribute an almost unbelievable complexity and variety to events in the brain. But I submit that a one-for-one relation is probably quite unnecessary. All our examples suggest that the brain can respond—in a sense, adequately and exquisitely respond—to the seemingly infinite variety of consciousness without providing one singly physical modification for each single modification of consciousness. I have tried to stress throughout the inevitableness of the error made about every transposition by one who approaches it from the lower medium only. The strength of the critic lies in the words "merely" or "nothing but. He sees all the facts but not the meaning. Quite truly, therefore, he claims to have seen all the facts. there is nothing else there, except the meaning. He is therefore, as regards the matter at hand, in the position of an animal. You will have noticed that most dogs cannot understand pointing. You point to a bit of food on the floor; the dog, instead of looking at the floor, sniffs at your finger. A finger is a finger to him, and that is all. His world is all afct and no meaning. And in a period in when factual realism is dominant we shall find people deliberately inducing upon themselves this doglike mind. A man who has experienced love from within will deliberately go about to inspect in analytically from outside and regard the results of this analysis as truer than his experience. The extreme limits of this self-binding is seen in those who, like the rest of us, have consciousness, yet go about the study of the human organism as if they did not know it was conscious. As long as this deliberate refusal to understand things from above, even where such understanding is possible, continues, it is idle to talk of any final victory over materialism. The critique of every experience from below, the voluntary ignoring of meaning and concentration on fact, will always have the same plausibility. There will always be evidence, and every month fresh evidence, to show that religion is only psychological, justice only self-protection, politics only economics, love only lust, and thought itself only cerebral bio-chemistry." excerpts from C.S. Lewis' essay TranspositionsClive Hayden
February 1, 2010
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