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METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
agentorange,
Right Clive, but don’t tell Jerry or StephenB that in the absence of evidence for such an assertion of a non material mind being real that they admit to not knowing. Let’s not create needless double standards okay?
No double standards here, okay?
But when it comes to explaining the details on how it works, & moreover how we can objectively know it works in the way you claim it does, then you come up short big time.
Objectivity relies on something other than material movements producing thoughts, okay big time? If your thoughts were the product of material movements, no thoughts would be objectively true outside of their physical parameters and movements, and the laws which govern all thoughts would be the laws of physics and chemistry, not laws of objective reason and logic which are metaphysical and immaterial. I guess you don't see it this way because you have no choice in the matter, and your matter isn't giving you a choice. ;) Atoms move, whether it be rational in their movement we can never say, for we do not understand the laws of nature as we understand immaterial laws of reason and logic. We can see the reasonableness of the law of non-contradiction, we cannot see the reasonableness (that is, we cannot perceive with our reason) the laws of physics. All we can do is describe them, but we cannot explain them. But we can explain the law of non-contradiction, because we understand it with our reason, but we have no equivalent understanding with an explanation of nature. But what I said was that atoms, themselves, are irrational, how they move makes no difference on this score. If you take all thoughts to be the result of chemical stimuli, then that thought is itself a result of chemical stimuli, but so would wrong thoughts be also, and no objective or independent thought will get you out of this box of material causation, no "truer" standard of thought would exist by which to compare the efficacy of other thoughts, for they are all on trial, and cannot also be the judge.Clive Hayden
February 1, 2010
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Stephen:
Again, you misunderstand the purpose of definitions, which is not to be right or wrong, but to allow others to know exactly what you mean so that they can judge your facility to use them and draw reasonable conclusions in the process. I define my terms so that reasonable people can discern whether or not my arguments make sense.
Any argument that proceeds from a fatally flawed definition is stillborn. Your definition is more than a definition because it sneaks in the assumption that human intelligence is not part of the natural world. An assumption yet unsupported. But I am a generous soul. Just demonstrate that human intelligence can operate in the absence of the physical form it is associated with and I will gladly accept your definition.
You and agent orange, on the other hand, refuse to define your terms because you simply don’t want to be held accountable for what you think.
Actually, I did in comment 146. Now scroll back and read that, so that you can quibble over my definition and avoid having to support that human intelligence can operate in the absence of the physical form it is associated with.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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Adel Dibagno Adel, excuse me, but you have not yet explained why secondary causes relate to this discussion. You have simply provided more quotes to confirm what we already know, namely that secondary causes exist. That has nothing to do with the fact that tornados do not go looking for jewelry or that nature doesn't build artifacts. Only intelligent agents do those things. Secondary causes are not related to this discussion. One could try to make a case that the patterns in a DNA molecule were produced via secondary causes, but you cannot rationally make that same argument about Pompeii's artifacts or the evidence for a Burglars activity. That is why I chose those examples. Methodologial naturalism cannot study them, which means that it cannot hold itself up as a rule for science. That is why agentorange and effrents keep dodging the issue and refusing to provide their definition of "natural," a word they use consistently and recklessly without having any idea about what it could mean.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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---effrents: "In the absence of any proof that intelligence can operate independently of the physical form it is associated with, your definition is wrong." Again, you misunderstand the purpose of definitions, which is not to be right or wrong, but to allow others to know exactly what you mean so that they can judge your facility to use them and draw reasonable conclusions in the process. I define my terms so that reasonable people can discern whether or not my arguments make sense. You and agent orange, on the other hand, refuse to define your terms because you simply don't want to be held accountable for what you think. Both of you hope that by hiding behind such vague notions as "natural" and "supernatural," the fog of non-definition discourse will hide the fact that you have no argument. It doesn't. No intellectually respectable person refuses to define his terms.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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Clive, @ 174 “It is ignorant to placate your assumption of knowledge when it is not real knowledge. It is wise to admit what you don’t know.” Right Clive, but don’t tell Jerry or StephenB that in the absence of evidence for such an assertion of a non material mind being real that they admit to not knowing. Let’s not create needless double standards okay? I’m trying to be as generous with my question regarding how a non material mind works, i would prefer some good examples explaining the evidence, logic, examples, & how it’s as well supported & explains more than the concept of a mind being directly linked to the physical brain. Explain the A to Z if you will. “non-material mind can work because it wouldn’t be a mind independent of the material” And what evidence is there that a non material mind works, let alone in this way? All you’ve said is what StephenB decried ‘it can work!’, But when it comes to explaining the details on how it works, & moreover how we can objectively know it works in the way you claim it does, then you come up short big time. “assumption that your mind is the movements of irrational atoms” Who said atoms move irrationally? Even were this the case, the higher levels of aggregate chemicals reactions in the brain which translate to our actions & modes of thought aren’t irrational, they’re quite observable & predictable in neurological studies in which we find correlation between specific sections in the brain in which injury has occurred & how this physical change impairs the observers ability to process sensory input. We find direction corelation between chemical drugs & the changes in the perception.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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InnerBling @151, “If materialistic worldview is right it necessarily follows that you in fact do not exist because you are only an emergent property of matter and only matter exists.” This isn’t correct; consider this analogy of other emergent property. If take a storm apart and examine it atom for atom will we find a storm anywhere? Certainly not. The storm only exists as an aggregate concourse of those atoms-it only exists as a whole, not within its parts. Just as a storm has no single ‘location’, nor even any constant or distinct measurements at all, yet clearly exists as a solely physical phenomenon fully explicable by science, so does our consciousness lack any such single location within the brain, or any constant or distinct mass or energy content, much less length or breadth, yet it is solely a physical phenomenon explainable by science. In this same way, the you, the self does exist.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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Adel di Bagno (#176) The quotations which you cite have been addressed previously on this blog. I refer you to the following post: https://uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-contest-19-spot-the-mistakes-in-the-following-baffflegab-explanation-of-intelligent-design-theory/#comment-344239 I would also add that defining methodological naturalism as "the study of natural (secondary) causes" is not accurate. Methodological naturalism is more than the investigation of secondary causes; it is the total exclusion of the Primary Cause (God) from the domain of science. As I have argued in the above-cited post, it is a total mis-reading of the medieval philosophers to argue that they upheld such a view. On thsi thread, I've already shown that James Clerk Maxwell was no methodological naturalist. I should add that methodological naturalism would have been utterly foreign to Rufus Porter, the founder of Scientific American, the first issue of which has been removed from that magazine's Web site. (I wonder why!) Here's an excerpt from his article, "Rational Religion," which appeared in the first issue, in 1845:
First, then, let us, as rational creatures, be ever ready to acknowledge God as our Creator and daily Preserver; and that we are each of us individually dependant on his special care and good will towards us, in supporting the wonderful action of nature which constitutes our existence; and in preserving us from the casualties, to which our complicated and delicate structure is liable. Let us also, knowing our entire dependence on Divine Benevolence, as rational creatures, do ourselves the honor to express personally and frequently, our thanks to him for his goodness; and to present our petitions to Him for the favours which we constantly require. This course is rational, even without the aid of revelation: but being specially invited to this course, by the divine word, and assured of the readiness of our Creator to answer our prayers and recognize our thanks, it is truly surprising that any rational being, who has ever read the inspired writings should willingly forego this privilege, or should be ashamed to be seen engaged in this rational employment, or to have it known that he practices it.
Does that sound like a methodological naturalist to you? I think not.vjtorley
February 1, 2010
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agentorange (#172) If you'd like some answers to your questions about the mind and the brain, try here: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/soul.htmlvjtorley
February 1, 2010
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StephenB, I know that you are busy attending to other commenters here, so I appreciate the attention you have given to my thoughts. You wrote:
Sorry, if I rattled your cage, but you rattled mine first. Inasmuch as you began your comment speculating that I did not know what St. Thomas means by secondary causes, which is not the case, and without explaining how that ties in to the present theme, which would seem to be in order, I don’t think my response was inappropriate. You are, after all, among that happy throng that continues to inject new irrelevancies without answering my old questions or even confronting them.
It surprises me that you should not see how the subject of secondary causes ties in with the subject of this post, which begins its title with the words METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM. As I said earlier when introducing the subject of secondary causation:
Aquinas is saying that secondary (i.e., natural) causes can adequately explain the flotsam and jetsam of creation without denying or disparaging in any way the primary causative role of God in the whole shebang. You can, without sin or blasphemy, study nature in its own right while leaving God out of the details. Indeed, God’s dignity is honored thereby.
Inasmuch as methodological naturalism consists in the study of natural (secondary) causes, naturalism received a philosophical and theological warrant from Aquinas and other eminent theologians and natural philosophers of the Medieval period such as Adelard of Bath (c. 1080 – c. 1152), Robert Grosseteste (c. 1175 – 1253), and Thomas’ mentor Albertus Magnus, (1193/1206 –1280 Orasme is another one, and the quotation that I gave earlier is consistent with this view:
there is no reason to take recourse to the heavens, the last refuge of the weak, or demons, or to our glorious God as if He would produce these effects directly, more so than those effects whose causes we believe are well known to us.
I understand that you are defending the claim that methodological naturalism did not exist until the late 20th century. I am challenging that claim by providing evidence that the practice of methodological naturalism has a pedigree at least as far back as the twelfth century in Western Europe. You wrote further concerning the relevance of secondary causes to this discussion:
…unless, of course, you think God used secondary causes to produce Pompei and the burglar.
What else would I think? What else would Aquinas think? What do you think?Adel DiBagno
February 1, 2010
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Seversky (#69) You have alleged that while the term "methodological naturalism" was not coined until the 1980s, it was accepted scientific practice long before then - indeed, as far back as the Middle Ages. I intend to show in this post that you have misconstrued the development of science. Scientists in times past did not hesitate to draw inferences to an intelligent Designer of nature, in the name of science. Indeed, James Clerk Maxwell, whom you mention in your list of scientific heroes, did just that, as I will show. First of all, let's get some terminology out of the way. I would define philosophical naturalism as the view which says that that for every entity that exists, EITHER (a) the entity's behavior conforms to regularities, which may be uniform and exceptionless (e.g. all electrons have the same rest mass) or statistical (e.g. radioactive decay); OR (b) the entity is made up of components which conform to these regularities. Something which is either (a) or (b) may be defined as natural. So-called natural forces are simply those forces whose mode of operation can be described by a (uniform or statistical) regularity. Human agency cannot be described in this fashion at the "macro" level; but a methodological naturalist would say that human actions supervene upon microscopic processes which can be described in this way. I would define methodological naturalism as the scientific endeavor to describe the behavior of all observed entities in accordance with the principles of philosophical naturalism - i.e. as falling under uniform or statistical regularities, at some level. Regarding methodological naturalism, you write:
Methodological naturalism is a lot more than some vague “preference” for natural causes. It follows from the assumption that there is an objective Universe out there which is ordered, contingent, consistent and comprehensible. If it were not so, not just science but any form of reliable knowledge about anything would be impossible.
I would reply: science cannot explain what science presupposes. Science simply assumes that the universe is comprehensible, but as Einstein (who belonged to no religion)famously remarked: "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible." ("Physics and Reality" in Journal of the Franklin Institute (March 1936) as quoted in Einstein: A Biography (1954) by Antonina Vallentin, p. 24.) Why are there any laws of nature at all? The only rational answer is that the world is not just a collection of facts, as Wittgenstein envisaged in his "Tractatus"; if we believe in causal powers, then there are normative states of affairs too. ("Ought" is just as much a part of the world as "is.") When an apple falls to the ground, that is what it is supposed to do. Were this not so, it would be unreasonable to expect the next apple to fall. In other words, we live in a world where things behave as they should behave. Laws of nature are not mere regularities; they are prescriptive, as well as descriptive. But in the end, the notion of things in nature behaving as they should, or conforming to norms, even though they lack minds, can only be made sense of by positing a Transcendent Intelligence that makes them do so (i.e. God). Thus from the mere existence of causal powers (which make the laws of nature normative and not just descriptive statements), we can reason our way to God. But if methodological naturalism is true, then your postulate that the cosmos is intelligible is just that: a postulate. It may be proven wrong tomorrow, and in the mean time, you are just whistling in the dark. The only thing that can reliably guarantee that the reality we perceive is and always will be intelligible is a Transcendent Intelligence - but not just any old Intelligence. It has to be one whose nature is essentially rational, thereby preventing it from engaging in whimsical or quixotic actions. You quote Arthur Strahler as saying: "There can be no limit to the kinds and shapes of supernatural forces and forms the human mind is capable of conjuring up 'from nowhere.'" That may be so, but we can certainly rule out whimsical, pint-sized Zeusian deities with ad hoc attributes, as a matter of course. Such deities could not support the scientific enterprise, as you rightly point out. What I propose instead is a God whose essence is to know and love in a perfect fashion. That means that God cannot break a promise, for instance. Such a God can be trusted and relied on. I should add that the Divine attributes of knowledge and love do not contain any inherent limitations. You then mention the nineteenth-century scientist James Clerk Maxwell:
All of today’s commonplace technology, such as TV, radio, radar, that exploits electromagnetic phenomena exists in part because a 19th century Scottish nerd was curious about the nature and relationship of electricity and magnetism and eventually constructed a theory to explain it.
While noting that he was privately religious, you contend that he did not let his religion affect his science. Well, I beg to differ. I've just been having a look at a biography of Maxwell, entitled The Life of James Clerk Maxwell by Lewis Campbell and William Garnett. Here's an excerpt from p. 176 (emphases mine - VJT):
While speaking of his work in lecturing, it may be well briefly to advert to the famous “Discourse on Molecules,” delivered before the British Association at Bradford in September 1873, which has been more often quoted than, perhaps, any other of his writings. This address was extremely rich in scientific matter, but its chief interest lay in the concluding paragraphs, which may be said to indicate more clearly than any other of Maxwell's writings the position of his mind towards certain doctrines maintained by scientific men: -
In the heavens we discover by their light, and by their light alone, stars so distant from each other that no material thing can ever have passed from one to another; [359] and yet this light, which is to us the sole evidence of the existence of these distant worlds, tells us also that each of them is built up of molecules of the same kinds as those which we find on earth. A molecule of hydrogen, for example, whether in Sirius or in Arcturus, executes its vibrations in precisely the same time. Each molecule therefore throughout the universe bears impressed upon it the stamp of a metric system as distinctly as does the metre of the Archives at Paris, or the double royal cubit of the temple of Karnac. No theory of evolution can be formed to account for the similarity of molecules, for evolution necessarily implies continuous change, and the molecule is incapable of growth or decay, of generation or destruction. None of the processes of Nature, since the time when Nature began, have produced the slightest difference in the properties of any molecule. We are therefore unable to ascribe either the existence of the molecules or the identity of their properties to any of the causes which we call natural. On the other hand, the exact equality of each molecule to all others of the same kind gives it, as Sir John Herschel has well said, the essential character of a manufactured article, and precludes the idea of its being eternal and self-existent. Thus we have been led, along a strictly scientific path, very near to the point at which Science must stop,—not that Science is debarred from studying the internal mechanism of a molecule which she cannot take to pieces, any more than from investigating an organism which she cannot put together. But in tracing back the history of matter, Science is arrested when she assures herself, on the one hand, that the molecule has been made, and, on the other, that it has not been made by any of the processes we call natural. Science is incompetent to reason upon the creation of matter itself out of nothing. We have reached the utmost limits of our thinking faculties when we have admitted that because matter cannot be eternal and self-existent it must have been created. [360] It is only when we contemplate, not matter in itself, but the form in which it actually exists, that our mind finds something on which it can lay hold.
What Maxwell is proposing here is an interesting design argument, on scientific grounds: the fact that molecules are perfectly identical to one another suggests that they were manufactured according to an intelligent plan. What he had in mind was a "uniformity intended and accomplished by the same wisdom and power of which uniformity, accuracy, symmetry, consistency, and continuity of plan are ... important attributes..." as he wrote in a letter to a friend. (See E.Garber, S.G.Brush, and C.W.F.Everitt, (Eds) Maxwell on Molecules and Gases, p. 242. (1986) MIT press, Cambridge Massachusetts.) [Emphases mine - VJT.] Note that the dividing line between science and religion is quite different for Maxwell than it is for modern scientists. For Maxwell, science could not explain the modus operandi of the Creator (especially the creation of matter out of nothing). In the 21st century, ID admits the same thing. But Maxwell felt quite confident in pronouncing, as a scientist, that certain entities (hydrogen atoms) did not have a natural origin. Today, proponents of cosmological ID have refined Maxwell's position somewhat: they would argue that the laws of nature describing the behavior of hydrogen atoms do not have a natural origin. In addition, the modern intelligent design movement claims to be able to identify patterns in the biological realm which can only have been made by some Intelligence. Science can take us this far, by ruling out the alternative explanations of chance and/or necessity. However, philosophy (not science) is required for us to draw the inference that this Intelligence must be totally Transcendent and hence supernatural. If you're curious about Maxwell, I would also recommend this highly readable article, entitled James Clerk Maxwell and the Christian Proposition by Ian Hutchinson, for a history of Maxwell's religious views, and how they influenced his science. I submit that the modern ID movement, and not the National Academy of Sciences (which espouses methodological naturalism) is the legitimate intellectual heir of James Clerk Maxwell's approach to science.vjtorley
February 1, 2010
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agentorange,
Great, let’s placate ignorance!
It is ignorant to placate your assumption of knowledge when it is not real knowledge. It is wise to admit what you don't know. The non-material mind can work because it wouldn't be a mind independent of the material otherwise, it would be material movements, which have speed and velocity, weight and distance, but can never be something we call "eternal truth" outside and apart from its movements, nor can it produce an "ought" from an "is". This has to firmly grasped. The laws of logic and reason do not follow the laws of physics and chemistry, they are immaterial, and not vice versa.
Yeah, I guess such a question of how a non material mind works is too much to swallow, best to sum it up as ‘One of the more pathetic comments’ rather than having to actually think & considering how such a claim is tenable.
What's too much to swallow is the assumption that your mind is the movements of irrational atoms, for that thought is, itself, a movement of atoms, and so is every other thought, including all thoughts of ID advocates, and all standards that would be used to judge between thoughts, so there exist no escape from the torrent of material events, no "truer" judgment between contradictory thoughts that is not itself on trial as being the result of the same material process that is in question. The judge cannot also be the one on trial, or else the verdict is invalid. But on the assumption of a material mind, there is no escape, and if any thought is invalid, they're all invalid by the same process that produced the invalid one. This is why materialism is wrong, it breaks down with the theory of knowledge. It defeats its own credentials. By wanting too much it will get nothing.Clive Hayden
February 1, 2010
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Jerry @1 72, “No one knows the nature of such a being and what it means to be non material” Great, let's placate ignorance! So....then why do StephenB, & presumably you, both accept the concept that a non material mind can work (any explanations?), & moreover claim to know how it works? In absence of evidence you find such a concept tenable, why? The mere fact that neither you, nor him can even begin to define or describe what a ‘non material mind’ entails much less how they can demonstrate such details objectively is evidence enough that such an assertion amounts to wishful thinking. C’mon, ID guys, you’re the ones championing all this ‘we can infer the evidence for how a mind w/ intelligence works’, why doesn’t this premise follow to when it comes to all the evidence we know regarding the physical connections between the brain to the self/mind that in the absence of a physical brain the mind cannot exist? “Maybe it is some substance we are completely unaware of.” Or, maybe it's rubbish. Propositions are only believed to the extent to which they adhere to known testable evidence & are congruent w/ experience. All of our experiences with physical brains suggest that the self identity/mind is linked to the physical brain, & when it’s gone so is the organized pattern known as the self. Yeah, I guess such a question of how a non material mind works is too much to swallow, best to sum it up as ‘One of the more pathetic comments’ rather than having to actually think & considering how such a claim is tenable.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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"Of course they are, they address different properties. So perhaps you’d like to take a stab at the ‘how’ a non material based mind would work? " One of the more pathetic comments. No one knows the nature of such a being and what it means to be non material. Maybe it is some substance we are completely unaware of. If we could answer such a question then we would suit up for our Nobel Prize in something. But to say that because we do not know how it would work is equivalent to postulating it does not exist, is essentially a stupid statement. But what else is new and this is to be expected by the anti ID people here. As I frequently say, there has been only one anti ID person ever to come here that made sense. I am not following this thread but occasionally check in and there is whole spectrum of stupid comments. I don't envy StephenB having to deal with them.jerry
February 1, 2010
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agentorange -- regarding to post 167 (and 158 for that matter) you seem to be reading something into my post 157 that isn't there, and for some reason, failed to address my post 159 which included a question for you. Are you saying that meth-nat should not/must not require an explanation as to a cause when articulating an observation? Now regarding post 158 I was inclined grant the point that "non-natural explanations" don't lead to a better understanding of nature -- which is not related, btw, to the point I was making in the post to which you responded -- but upon reflection the acceptance of objective truth and a divine order on creation would be examples of "non-natural explanations" being used to explain natural ones furthering our objective understanding of nature.tribune7
February 1, 2010
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StephenB:
You are very confused. The purpose of a definition is to explain what one means and what one doesn’t mean. To say that natural causes does not mean intelligence is to define one’s terms.
More parsing of words. But, fine I will reword the sentence. In the absence of any proof that intelligence can operate independently of the physical form it is associated with, your definition is wrong.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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---efren ts: "To get around this problem, Stephen tries to redefine (by fiat) nature such that human intelligence is now not natural. But, until such time as you can demonstrate that human intelligence can operate independent of the ugly bag of mostly water it is associated with, you are, to repeat, assuming your conclusion." You are very confused. The purpose of a definition is to explain what one means and what one doesn't mean. To say that natural causes does not mean intelligence is to define one's terms. If only you would do that. Also, the definition precedes the analysis and not the other way around. The purpose for defining terms is not to argue but to clarify and makes sense of what it is that you are about to argue. That, by the way, explains why you cannot defend MN and will not even try.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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Jerry, “As Seversky explained HOW” Of course they are, they address different properties. So perhaps you’d like to take a stab at the ‘how’ a non material based mind would work? The best I got was a stone wall of ‘it’s irrelevant’, so as to rationalize that their assertion need not be substantiated with evidence at all. Such a stance is, well, contemptible, as it might as well be held b/c some magical pixies told him so that a non material mind can exist.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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Tribune, Perhaps indicate the ‘where’ in the ‘where in the history of science’ in which non natural (supernatural) explinations were used to explain natural observations which resultd in actual new knowledge?agentorange
February 1, 2010
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Agentorange at 161: "Jerry, in the past millennia ago people had all the freedom they wanted to explore natural observations, & in doing do routinely used non testable assertions that they claimed originated in some other plane, realm or reality, for which is often termed ‘the supernatural’. The consequence of using such a technique is that doing so is counterproductive to understanding reality as it never lead to actual knowledge about how the universe worked. Demons cause disease & plague you say? Oh, ok then according to this book just pray & you’ll be cured." It doesn't logically follow that if I for example say that universe was made by God that somehow I also assert at the same time that I know how to universe was done. Logical premises: 1. This was made by being X != (does not follow from the first premise) 2. So I know how it was done As Seversky explained HOW and WHO are different questions.Innerbling
February 1, 2010
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StephenB @ 37, “failed to define your terms” Puleaase. I at least offered defined terms in using Wiki; you could at least have tried based on those terms to explain the efficacy in history of science in asserting a supernatural explanation for a natural one. Oh you did try, sort of, (miracles!) but you moved away from that promptly & continue to distance yourself from it. “defined your terms for you” You defined your own terms which you’re only willing to accept. Ya, that's awefully cordial of you. There is little reason for you to placate the dialog by pretending you don't have some idea of what the supernatural term involves, as clearly since you advocate a non-material based mind can exist in absense of physical brain, more on your lacking evidence later, this stance of holding that non material minds can exist is indicitive of your stance of suspension of known physical laws of nature. So, yeah, you do have some loose concept of what you consider the supernatural to consist of, but alas when it comes to showing how explinations from this realm work you stonewall. “Your question is irrelevant. One need not know how something works to posit it as a possible cause.“ Well if you posit X is the cause of Y, you necessarily have to explain how X functions as a non material mind, which for all science evidence shows is impossible. Since you can’t explain how a non material mind works (c’mon please try, we'd all love to see this), on what reasons on evidence should we accept your declaration that indeed non material minds exists, but also that they work in how you say they do? Why should we accept your axiom of non material minds exsiting, where is your evidence? You’re asking the observer to ignore all the evidence we have about how the physical brain & mind/self identify works & instead take your non evidence based assertion that it works just as you assert? Where/how do you even arrive at this conclusion that this is even remotely possible?agentorange
February 1, 2010
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CJYMan at 152: Since you have fufilled my prediction about diverting the conversation away from substantive questions into infinite parsing of definitions (Dictionarys! All the way down!), I really have nothing more to add except to point out again that Stephen's definition, which you seem rather fond of, assumes his conclusion that intelligence is not natural. That is an assertion that has yet to be proven and, therefore, is unwarranted.
Well since ID Theory is only about objectively discovering signs of previous intelligence, then we are good to go.
In principal, it could be. In practice, not by a country mile. As I stated, the only intelligence we can conclusively identify and study is that which is tied to a physical form. Now, I suppose you I have opened to door for you to protest that I have not sufficiently define "physical", but I trust that you are not so obstinate to debate that humans have a physical form and exist in the physical world. The problem with ID is that posits a presumed designer that is outside of nature (using any definition). Sure, some will occasionally agree that the designer could be a space alien (wink! wink!), but no one in the ID community actually believes that. So, by being outside of nature the designer is not amenable to study like the more mundane forms of intelligence that we are familiar with. To get around this problem, Stephen tries to redefine (by fiat) nature such that human intelligence is now not natural. But, until such time as you can demonstrate that human intelligence can operate independent of the ugly bag of mostly water it is associated with, you are, to repeat, assuming your conclusion. So, to your statement, ID could become scientific. All that it needs to do is produce the designer. But, alas, any question of the means, motives, or identity of the designer is strictly forbidden.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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162. Your question is [irrelevant.]StephenB
February 1, 2010
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---agentorange: "But since you advocate they (miracles) do happen & are measurable, why don’t we see such miraculous healings in which amputees get their arms back?" Your question is irrevant. That some miracles have been not known to occur does not mean other miracles have not occurred. It should be evident that science cannot explain the why of a miracle or the priorities of the one who dispenses them. Perhaps you should cease from asking irrelevant questions, which are easy to answer, and start answering the relevant ones, which are hard to answer.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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Jerry @64, “A more logical correlation is freedom. When men are free to speculate and to test, then that is where knowledge takes off” Jerry, in the past millennia ago people had all the freedom they wanted to explore natural observations, & in doing do routinely used non testable assertions that they claimed originated in some other plane, realm or reality, for which is often termed ‘the supernatural’. The consequence of using such a technique is that doing so is counterproductive to understanding reality as it never lead to actual knowledge about how the universe worked. Demons cause disease & plague you say? Oh, ok then according to this book just pray & you’ll be cured. Such was the rhetoric offered of that era, such an endeavor is not logical at all.agentorange
February 1, 2010
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---agentorange: "Ok, I am still waiting on your reply to my question I posted in agentorange @ 3." As I pointed out, your question was not answerable as long as you failed to define your terms. Given that deficienty, I went above and beyond the call of duty, defined your terms for you, and answered the question several times from the outside in and from the inside out. Both the archeologist [searching for non-natural causes in Pompeii's artifacts] and the forensic scientist [identifying the burglar] go beyond natural causes to draw their conclusions. Unless you define the word "natural," you can't make a case for methodologial naturalism, which, as this thread has made clear, cannot be defended. At least seversky, to his credit, gave it a try and didn't hide behind phony excuses. ---"How would an immaterial mind work? Any measurable testable ways of narrowing down what this entails?" Your question is irrelevant. One need not know how something works to posit it as a possible cause.StephenB
February 1, 2010
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agentorange -- Perhaps indicate the ‘where’ in the ‘where in the history of science’ in which non natural (supernatural) explinations were used to explain natural observations which resultd in actual new knowledge? Are you saying that meth-nat should not/must not require a explanation as to a cause when articulating an observation? If so we would basically be in agreement.tribune7
February 1, 2010
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tribune7 @ 157, can you elaborate a little on that? Some examples perhaps. Perhaps indicate the 'where' in the 'where in the history of science' in which non natural (supernatural) explinations were used to explain natural observations which resultd in actual new knowledge?agentorange
February 1, 2010
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Where in history of science has ever it occurred that not using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism) resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge? If the requirement to explain a cause while articulating an observation of nature was the rule of science very little increase in knowledge would have resulted from science.tribune7
February 1, 2010
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StephenB @ Since you’re adamant about keeping score on answered questions, here’s another you haven’t tried to answer. [Regarding the efficacy of miracles as indications of suspension of natural laws (supernatural events) ] But since you advocate they (miracles) do happen & are measurable, why don’t we see such miraculous healings in which amputees get their arms back? Why don’t we see burn victims who’ve suffered whole body burns or significant comparisons have their whole body skin refreshed to new?agentorange
February 1, 2010
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StephenB @ 37, “Agent orange, I am still waiting for answers to all my questions @41.” Ok, I am still waiting on your reply to my question I posted in agentorange @ 3. StephenB : “…declaring that there are no immaterial minds” How would an immaterial mind work? Any measurable testable ways of narrowing down what this entails?agentorange
February 1, 2010
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