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METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
Here's what the atheist philosopher Dr. Bradley Monton has to say on the subject of methodological naturalism:
In my (by now somewhat infamous) discussion of the Dover trial (which occurs here , and in Chapter 2 of my book), I took issue with Judge Jones (and with Robert Pennock) for endorsing methodological naturalism, understood as the claim that science can’t in principle investigate supernatural phenomena. I was happy to come across an article by physicist Sean Carroll where he endorses the same anti-methodogical-naturalism point that I do:
There’s no obstacle in principle to imagining that the normal progress of science could one day conclude that the invocation of a supernatural component was the best way of understanding the universe. Indeed, this scenario is basically the hope of most proponents of Intelligent Design. The point is not that this couldn’t possibly happen — it’s that it hasn’t happened in our actual world.
I’ve been given a hard time for saying this, so I’m happy to see smart people agreeing with me.
vjtorley
February 1, 2010
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agentorange (#22) Thank you for your post. You write:
But since you advocate they [miracles - VJT] do happen & are measurable, why don’t we see such miraculous healings in which amputees get their arms back?
I guess you've never heard of the Miracle of Calanda, have you? You might like to try these links: Miracle of Calanda - Letter by Dom Antoine Marie, of St. Joseph Abbey Miracle of Calanda - Wikipedia article The 'Miracle of All Miracles' in Calanda For an amputee healing miracle in the New Testament, see Luke 22:49-51. You might also like to have a look at this article, entitled "The Flying Saint" by Renzo Allegri, in The Messenger of St. Anthony, January 2003, available online at http://www.messengersaintanthony.com/messaggero/pagina_articolo.asp?IDX=171IDRX=55 . An excerpt:
He has entered history as the 'flying saint'. One of the characteristics of his extraordinary mystic experiences was his ecstasies. All he needed to see was an image of Jesus, the Virgin Mary, Saint Francis or another saint, or hear their names spoken aloud, and he went into ecstasy. He let out a cry and floated into the air. He remained there, suspended between the earth and the sky for up to even an hour, two hours, three hours... while people ran to see this phenomenon. Crowds of the devoted and curious thronged around him, all amazed and moved, while doctors and scientists attempted to reach him using ladders and ropes in order to subject him to tests and try to understand how such a thing was possible... 'To doubt is understandable,' Fr. Giulio Berettoni, rector of the Shrine of St. Joseph of Cupertino in Osimo tells me 'but it isn't justifiable. If we take a serious look at the saint's life from a historical point of view, then we see that we cannot question his ecstasies. There are numerous witness accounts. They began to be documented in 1628, and this continued until Joseph's death in 1663, i.e. for 35 years. In certain periods, the phenomenon is recorded to have taken place more than once a day. It has been calculated that Joseph's 'ecstatic flights' took place at least 1,000 to 1,500 times in his lifetime, perhaps even more, and that they were witnessed by thousands of people. They were the phenomenon of the century. They were so sensational and so public that they attracted attention from curious people from all walks of life, Italians and foreigners, believers and unbelievers, simple folk, but also scholars, scientists, priests, bishops and cardinals. They continued to occur in every situation, in whatever church in which the saint prayed or celebrated Mass. It is impossible to doubt such a sensational and public phenomenon which repeated itself over time. It is also worth noting that these events occurred in the seventeenth century, the time of the Inquisition. Amazing events, miracles and healings were labelled magic and the protagonists ended up undergoing a trial by the civil and religious Inquisition. In fact, St. Joseph of Cupertino underwent this very fate because of his ecstasies. But he was subjected to various trials without ever being condemned; final proof that these are sensational events, but also real, extraordinary and concrete facts.'
For a New Testament example of levitation, see John 6: 16-21. I invite you to put aside your preconceptions and follow the facts, wherever they lead.vjtorley
February 1, 2010
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Question asked in comment #3: "Where in history of science has ever it occurred that not using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism) resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge? What are its (supernatural explinations) fruits?" CJYman: "There can be no answer to those questions until “nature” and “supernatural” are usefully defined." efron ts: "[...] nature is the physical world which can be studied, tested, and understood through sensory observation." First, "physical" and "natural" can be used interchangeably, which means that the first part of your definition gives us no understanding of that which is natural since it could just as easily be written " ... nature is the natural world ..." Remember the reason why "nature" needs to be defined. It needs to be defined so that "supernatural" can be defined and excluded from science through the ruling of methodological "naturalism." As to the second half of your definition, I'm assuming that you are referencing both direct and indirect sensory observation since things such as the Big Bang, past evolution, and 'e' and 'b' fields are not amenable to direct sensory observation. If that is the case, then you are stating that "natural" includes everything which can be established by at least indirect inference. In that case, it seems you would agree with me that the distinction between between natural and supernatural is artificial as I've commented on in earlier comments. By your definition of "natural," "supernatural" merely becomes "that which we have not yet discovered." So, if I use the definition that you've just provided to answer the question in #3 above, I arrive at the answer that the question is meaningless in a scientific context because methodological naturalism merely becomes either meaningless or a science stopper. So, by both your definition of "natural" and supernatural," and the definition of MN which follows, and by StephenB's definition and demarcation of those terms, the "naturalism" part of methodological naturalism becomes absolutely useless in science because its negation only means that we can't study what we don't know about with methods that we aren't aware of. That is only blatantly stating the obvious and has no bearing on ID Theory, unless you wish to argue that we don't have any understanding of the existence of intelligence (foresight), and that the methods that ID Theory uses -- that of observation, inference, and probabilistic measurements -- are not understandable (we are not aware of such things). efron ts: "Now can we get back to the question in comment 3? I would hope so, but I predict that several people, Stephen among them, will only argue over the definition and never get back to that question." Well of course people are going to argue over the definition, since your definition does nothing to help the case of those people who wish to us MN as some sort of rule to exclude ID Theory from science. A straight forward answer to the question in #3 is that new ways of looking at problems -- things we didn't previously know, such as new ways of using math, new dimensions, new disciplines, etc -- (supernatural things according to your definition above) are constantly needed in order for science to progress. So, do you see now how your definition of "natural" creates an artificial (and only temporary) separation between "natural" and "supernatural" and thus renders MN useless in science? In fact, the reason why StephenB's definition of "natural" and "supernatural" are the only definitions that work in a useful manner, is because he treats the terms as their structure suggests. "Super" is not the negation of "natural," it merely means above, so that "natural" is subordinate to "supernatural." This works as he uses the terms, since intelligence can harness and even generate laws/algorithms yet no one has shown even a theoretical foundation for law defining intelligence, especially since intelligence is composed of patterns which are not even defined by law. Read through the following for an explanation of law, chance, and organization: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/polanyi-and-ontogenetic-emergence/#comment-337588 CJYman: "The answer to that question I believe is blatantly obvious … the possible inclusion of intelligence as a causal factor." efron ts: "Science studies the effects of intelligence all the time. Archeology, anthropology, psychology, and I am sure a few other ologies too. Of course, the intelligence that those fields study is associated with a physical body." Well since ID Theory is only about objectively discovering signs of previous intelligence, then we are good to go. Then you had better give this information to those that use MN as a means of stating that science can't allow intelligence as a causal factor, thus ID Theory is pseudoscience, and can rightly be ignored. Maybe we can both do some blog hopping together and argue for the inclusion of ID Theory in science as a team. CJYman: "Did StephenB state that MN is a universally binding rule, or did he state that many scientist believe that MN is a universally binding principle?" efron ts: "In the third paragraph, he states “keep in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s”. The implication is clear that he believes there was a univesally binding rule after the 1980s. Or, I suppose, an poor writer." No, I'd say that you are a poor reader, or "understander." StephenB also stated in the para directly before that: "methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is." He never stated that he personally believes that MN is a universally binding rule, which it seems was someone's original contention. The first time I read through those paras it was plainly obvious to me that he was speaking of a rule that before the 1980s was never imposed by one group of scientists upon another group.CJYman
February 1, 2010
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faded_Glory said in 140: "My axioms are straightforward: I exist; there exists a reality outside of me; I can gain some knowledge of that reality through the use of my senses and reason." Lets look at the first axiom within materialist worldview. As materialism states all complexity emerges from laws of physics including human existence and consciousness. If materialistic worldview is right it necessarily follows that you in fact do not exist because you are only an emergent property of matter and only matter exists. Within materialistic worldview it seems to me that your existence is an illusion a ghost in the machine.Innerbling
February 1, 2010
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FG-- I exist; there exists a reality outside of me; I can gain some knowledge of that reality through the use of my senses and reason. All of which is true, but "some knowledge" is not all knowledge, or even necessary knowledge; and your senses can provide inaccurate data; and your reasoning can be mistaken. Ultimately we all live by faith, so it's important to make sure we have faith in the right things.tribune7
February 1, 2010
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FG -- The word ’supernatural’ conveys zero information about something, Unless the supernatural exists then in conveys very significant information. Talking about things not bound by the laws of physics is just theoretical musing until such time we actually know of real things that are not bound by the law of physics But we do know of real things not bound by the law of physics such as the creation of the universe unless you want to claim the laws of physics are changeable which is even sillier than a whimsical God. Which is why I brought in Judeo-Christianity and a consistent loving God who demands we reject idolatry whether it be nature or man-made things including ideas the denial of His existence and moral code.tribune7
February 1, 2010
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sTephenB:
Changing their strategy, Darwinists then introduce the word “artificial” to deemphasize and, if possible, camouflage the fact that a substantially different kind of cause other than a natural cause is in play. By clinging to the word “natural,” while introducing a modifying adjective such as [artificially] natural, they implicitly pay tribute to the design element without actually explicitly acknowledging its existence, maintaining the word natural for both kinds of causes and hoping that no one will notice.
Umm, no. We just aren't buying into your assertion that the product of intelligence is non-natural. You are assuming your conclusion and, as Seversky points out, playing word games with different definitions of natural to try to build some edifice around an otherwise unsupported conclusion. The natural-natural vs. natural-artificial definition is not a new construct, despite your assertion otherwise. It has existed as an integral part of the sciences for centuries.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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Kairosfocus said: ------------------ Artificial cannot reasonably be per definition constrained to man. And supernatural, per a lot of evidence across much of history and culture, is hardly to be equated a priori per definition to “unknown.” In short your proffered definitions are reflective of an evolutionary materialistic view, assumed a priori. That is what we need to avoid. --------------------- I think it is eminently reasonable to constrain 'artificial' to man until the day we establish the existence of another entity that produces things not normally found in nature. What is the point of including hypotheticals in a definition? I am certainly willing to expand the definition as soon as new information requires it. Until then, 'natural' equates to 'non man-made'. Simple, elegant and eminently useful. If you think 'supernatural' conveys any information over and above 'unknown', please give some examples of what knowledge we have obtained from things/events/causes that some people call 'supernatural'. Since you refer to a lot of evidence that shouldn't be difficult? Personally I am not holding my breath, because whatever one may think about various claims of the supernatural, the fact remains that even people who firmly believe in it have no actual knowledge about it. I am in fact quite relaxed about this point: the moment we do get actual knowledge about the supernatural we can change the definition to include this knowledge. Unfortunately, as it stands today, we are in nomposition to do so (yet). Finally, I have no idea why my definitions are 'evolutionary' or 'materialistic'. You are reading too much into them. Nowhere do they exclude the possibility of the non-materialistic, and evolution doesn't even come into it at all. These definitions are purely limited to things we actually know to exist. And what is wrong with that? What is the point of lumbering definitions with loads of stuff that as far as we can tell may be entirely fictitious? fGfaded_Glory
February 1, 2010
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CJY at 116:
There can be no answer to those questions until “nature” and “supernatural” are usefully defined
Fien, nature is the physical world which can be studied, tested, and understood through sensory observation. Now can we get back to the question in comment 3? I would hope so, but I predict that several people, Stephen among them, will only argue over the definition and never get back to that question.
The answer to that question I believe is blatantly obvious … the possible inclusion of intelligence as a causal factor.
Science studies the effects of intelligence all the time. Archeology, anthropology, psychology, and I am sure a few other ologies too. Of course, the intelligence that those fields study is associated with a physical body.
Did StephenB state that MN is a universally binding rule, or did he state that many scientist believe that MN is a universally binding principle?
In the third paragraph, he states "keep in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s". The implication is clear that he believes there was a univesally binding rule after the 1980s. Or, I suppose, an poor writer.efren ts
February 1, 2010
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FG, II: Artificial cannot reasonably be per definition constrained to man. And supernatural, per a lot of evidence across much of history and culture, is hardly to be equated a priori per definition to "unknown." In short your proffered definitions are reflective of an evolutionary materialistic view, assumed a priori. That is what we need to avoid. And that is why I start instead from our observations of the world in which we see somethings that spiring from art, and others that, per our direct observations, do not. thence we see mechanical necessity, stochastic chance and intelligence as three identifiable, characterisable causal factors. And onward, we may profitably discuss the supernatural by starting from the case of an evidently contingent, fine tuned cosmos that shows every sign of being a product of art, a creation. Such an extra-cosmic creator is reasonably "super-natural." Gkairosfocus
February 1, 2010
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FG: Mind, the premise of all science and mathematics, is radically different in its rational behaviour from matter-energy and forces of chance and mechanical necessity. In short, logical inference is not a matter of atoms being pushed around willy nilly. Gkairosfocus
February 1, 2010
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CJYMan said: ------------------- As I’ve already explained in #90 and #107 above, StephenB has been the only one here to provide a useful (although ultimately artificial) definition of natural and supernatural. ---------------------------- I'm disappointed, why do you think my definitions are not useful? To remind you, ths is what i propose: 'natural' equals 'non man-made' 'supernatural' equals 'unknown', in the sense that anytime someone uses the word 'supernatural' about a thing, event or cause one can substitute 'unknown' without the loss of any knowledge or information whatsoever regarding that thing, event or cause. fGfaded_Glory
February 1, 2010
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Steve: First, a small corrective. I believe it was I who first brought up the issue that there is a suppressed alternative dichotomy which promises to be far more fruitful of empirical investigation: natural vs artificial (or, intelligent). That Sev accepts it is a step of progress, however slight. But, Sev has played the strawman game again: given you have some proposal for a method of identifying all design reliably, how do you prove it? That little word ALL is a marker of a rhetorical strawman that distorts the known Design view, set up to be knocked over. Sev knows or should know full well that the design filter empirical analytical approach is deliberately based to be conservative in its rulings; so it cheerfully accepts that in many cases it will rule chance where design is the actual underlying cause [the so-called false negative]. But as anyone familiar with hyp testing will know, when the issue is to make sure you are confident that your POSITIVE rulings are solid, you often have to accept an incidence of false negatives. (A good parallel case is in criminal court cases, where the rule that guilt must be shown beyond reasonable doubt will let off guilty people who are clever or lucky enough, but the alternative of locking up a lot of innocents is intolerable.) In our case, because of the momentous significance of the key design inference cases, a conservative rule is more than enough to build a scientific revolution on. And besides, on a simple approach, once we see functional organisation or information that amounts to 1,000 elementary yes/no decisions at least, i.e. info capacity at least 1 k bits, we have something like ten times the square of the number of possible configs of the 10^80 atoms of our observed cosmos, across its thermodynamically plausible lifespan. Something as complex as that that is specifically functional -- i.e. modest perturbation of information elements or of the organisation breaks functionality -- is directly and routinely observed to be produced by intelligence or art, but is NOT observed to be spontaneously produced by chance and blind mechanism from arbitrary start points. With many millions of test cases in point. To see what that means practically, let us look at Denton's classic description of one of the key objects of interest, teh living cell:
The intuitive feeling that pure chance could never have achieved the degree of complexity and ingenuity so ubiquitous in nature has been a continuing source of scepticism since the publication of the Origin . . . . To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter [so each atom in it would be “the size of a tennis ball”] and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules [ 500 k - 3 bn 4-state bases typically . .. i.e. we effectively start at an order of magnitude beyond 1 k bits just for DNA]. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines . . . . We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices used for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction . . . . However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours . . . . Unlike our own pseudo-automated assembly plants, where external controls are being continually applied, the cell's manufacturing capability is entirely self-regulated . . . . [T]he complexity of biological systems in terms of the sheer number of unique components is very impressive; and it raises the obvious question: could any sort of purely random process ever have assembled such systems in the time available? [Evolution: a Theory in Crisis, 1986, pp. 327 – 331]
Plainly, we are well beyond 1,000 bits wrth of functionally specific complex information and organisation. So it is highly material to note that on a masive empirical base, we have never seen a single case where an object using as few as 1,000 functionally specific bits has spontaneously come from undirected chance and mechanical necessity, starting from an arbitrary initial configuration that "just happened to be so." And, going back to your theme, it is a reasonable use of "natural" to include the product of [credibly or presumptively] undirected chance + necessity dynamically working out spontaneously from initial conditions that were how they happened to be at some initial point that could just as easily have been significantly otherwise without making a material difference to the kind of outcome we see. In that context, we can see the artificial and its signs in functionally specific complex organization and/or associated information. Which is empirically observable. And, in turn, it raises the point that the observed material world and many key items in it bear sitgns tha tpoint to intelligent design. But within that ambit of design, we can profitably use "nature" to speak of the aspects of creation that are governed by mechanical necessity and/or statistical processes; which is what most science tries to reduce to laws and dynamics. In short, we are not locked up tot he worlde view of evolutionary masterialism if we need to practice science. And tha tis a major lesson fromthe founders of ever so many sceintific disciplines. So he censoring magisterium's propaganda that we have to be practical materialists to do science is a falsehood, and one tha these people at he top of hte heap have the resourcesto easily correct, if they wanted to be truthful. So, pardon my conclusion: too many of such are willfully lying to us, to promote a materialist civlisational agenda. And too many others are betraying their duty to truth in science and elsewhere, by letting them get away with this lie. (Oh, I "forgot": materialism is inherently and foundationally amoral, so the party of Dawkins et al does not acknowledge a morally binding duty to the truth or to justice or to fairness or to decency; as opposed to the sort of pragmatic prudent rules you play by when you don't have enough power to arrogantly do as you please with those in your power. Something we all need to realise when we debate with them. Or, as Plato warned against in 360 BC -- the example of Alcibiades plainly in mind, when we put them in charge of educating our children.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 1, 2010
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Tribune7 said: ------------------ That one doesn’t work, FG. If it’s unknown it’s unknown. In fact, to declare the unknown as supernatural would end science as we know it. Supernatural means not bound by the laws of physics. The smart thing to do is to take the existence of the Judeo-Christian God as axiomatic and work from there. ------------------------------------- You read me the wrong way round, I am not saying that unknown equals supernatural, I am saying that supernatural equals unknown. By calling something 'supernatural' we don't add anything whatsoever over saying it is unknown. The word 'supernatural' conveys zero information about something, nor does it add anything to our knowledge about its cause. It is effectively vacuous. Talking about things not bound by the laws of physics is just theoretical musing until such time we actually know of real things that are not bound by the law of physics. I hesitate equating 'supernatural' with 'fantasy' because I don't want to exclude the possibility that some day we might obtain some knowledge of something not bound by the laws of physics, so I equate it with 'unknown' instead. I have no idea why you suddenly bring the Judeo-Christian god into this discussion. My axioms are straightforward: I exist; there exists a reality outside of me; I can gain some knowledge of that reality through the use of my senses and reason. I suspect you won't disagree with these axioms? I see no need to include anything more in the way of unprovable assumptions. fGfaded_Glory
February 1, 2010
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Kairosfocus said: --------------------- FG, I would adjust: Natural = non man-made, ie. opposed to ‘artificial’ [or intelligently and purposefully caused]. Non-natural = man-made [or caused by a comparable intelligent, purposeful cause . . . room for Kzinti, Treecats and R Daneel Olivaw etc . .. ]. --------------------- I can't quite parse your first suggestion, could you clarify your definition of 'Natural' for me? To augment my definition of 'non man-made', are you proposing 'non man-made or not intelligently and purposefully caused'? If so, that seems to lead to difficulties because I can easily think of not intelligently or purposefully caused artefacts that yet nobody would consider natural. Human footprints for instance. I am open to the expansion of non-natural to include other intelligent, purposeful causes but suggest we wait with including those until they have actually been established to exist. Kzinti are fictitious, it is therefore incorrect to consider them natural because clearly they are the product of a man, Larry Niven. As I said, we need to consider things like spider webs, termite mounds etc - I would consider those natural and that fits well with my definition. Under what definition of natural would such things be considered non-natural? fGfaded_Glory
February 1, 2010
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You are the only Darwinist who was willing to enter the arena.
This may be true but only of that subset of darwinists (themselves a subset of biologists) who are aware of Uncommon Descent and read the contributions, who consider a particular contribution incisive enough to be worth refuting, and who are able to navigate through the moderation. (The appearance of this comment may be delayed as it has to pass moderation.) ;)Zach Bailey
January 31, 2010
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Seversky, I offer you a tip of the hat. Among all your colleagues, you are the only one willing to address the issue. I will be respectful of that effort. You wrote: “The problem here lies in the confusion of two usages of the word “natural”: natural as opposed to supernatural and natural as opposed to artificial.” Here we come to the first difficulty. Splitting the word in two sections, “natural-natural” vs “natural-artificial simply compounds the problem. Now we have three undefined words, natural-natural, natural-artificial, and supernatural. Also, take note of the fact that MN does not use those differences in its official definition: “Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses. To avoid these traps scientists assume that all causes are empirical and naturalistic — which means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically” You will notice that there is no division here. The assumption of philosophical naturalism contains nothing like natural natural vs natural artificial. That only comes later when things start breaking down. Changing their strategy, Darwinists then introduce the word “artificial” to deemphasize and, if possible, camouflage the fact that a substantially different kind of cause other than a natural cause is in play. By clinging to the word “natural,” while introducing a modifying adjective such as [artificially] natural, they implicitly pay tribute to the design element without actually explicitly acknowledging its existence, maintaining the word natural for both kinds of causes and hoping that no one will notice. Even they recognize that the causes are different, but they must trivialize that difference by implying that difference is not substantial, otherwise their game is over. In effect, they are trying to have it both ways, saying that the two causes are the same, reflected by the consistent use of the word “natural, but different, reflected by the use of a modifying adverb, ----“We recognize the ruins of Pompeii as artificial by their similarity to other products of human artifice. We recognize the volcanic debris at Pompeii as natural by its similarity to that of other volcanoes and its dissimilarity to anything human beings routinely design.” Unfortunately, that begs the question. How did we recognize the first human artifacts with which to compare all the others? In fact, we not only recognized the patterns as being similar to other human patterns, we recognized the patterns as distinct from natural causes which have no such patterns. Further, and this is key, we can also perceive that natural-natural causes, as you put it, could not have produced those patterns, a point that you seem to recognize. ----“ The second problem is that, given you have some proposal for a method of identifying all design reliably, how do you prove it?” Again, we are not talking about ID or its methods, which really have little to do with the present discussion. We are talking about MN’s definitions, or rather the lack of them and its inability to explain itself rationally. It is MN’s burden because MN has presumed to make the rule. We still have no definition for the word, “natural.” In any case, congratulations! You are the only Darwinist who was willing to enter the arena.StephenB
January 31, 2010
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Acipenser: "It hasn’t been demonstrated that anything has been imposed on ID via MN in any form." So you are stating that no one has ever contended that ID is not science because it does not follow the rules of methodological naturalism? Acipenser: "If ID can provide the methods of research, the results derived from experiments utilizing those methods, and formulates their conclusions based on their evidence without overreaching/overstating what those results mean then there are a multitude of journals that would publish the research." The research as to methods of detecting design have already been published, although recently. In a bit of time, these methods will be applied to actual systems. Actually, Trevors and Abel have already discussed formal organization, within published papers, as it applies to living systems. Acipenser: "If anyone from any field comes up short on any of those counts they will be told to try again and do better next time. ID can step up to the plate anytime it wishes and there were agencies willing to fund such research but no one bothered to submit any proposals." Which ID research have you looked through again? I'm not sure you answered this question when I asked you earlier. I only ask again, since it seems you are completely unaware of published material relevant to ID Theory. ID Theory has indeed already stepped up to the plate. CYJman “The tornado is definable in terms of law+chance. ” Acipenser: "It is also definable as agency created and the question is how would you detect the design, or not detect the design to rule out that possibility." Actually, as I already explained, science is parsimonious so in this case, there is no need to invoke intelligence when intelligence is not *required* since chance+law can define said phenomenon. Did you miss that part of my last comment? ID Theory is about finding causal factors which are *required* to explain a given phenomenon. CYJman”From a scientific viewpoint, there is no need to invoke an intelligence.” Acipenser: "That only applies if you insist that no one can use design thinking in conducting their science." How?!?! When chance+law define an event we state that law+chance causes that event. Why invoke *unnecessary* causal factors, especially when involved in a parsimonious investigation such as science? Furthermore, when an aspect of intelligence, such as foresight is *required* to explain an event and law+chance can be negated, we state that intelligence was *required* as a causal factor. How would that be possible if we weren't allowed to use design thinking in conducting science? CYJman”Yet, when we can rule out law and chance and infer intelligence, there is no scientific reason not to do so. Agreed, or no?” Acipenser: "That would depend soley on the methods used to rule out law and chance before any inferences could ever be drawn." Of course that would depend on the methods. I'm assuming, for the sake of the statement, that there is a reliable methodology. So, if there were such a methodology, you would agree with the statement it appears. So you seem to have no problem in principle with a properly formed ID Theory being a part of science, correct? Acipenser: "You would also have to address other possible contigencies and rule them out as well before inferring an unknown intelligence as a default." You do realize that by saying "other contingencies" you are stating nothing more than "other chances?" Chance is chance. High contingency on its own is indicative of chance. Furthermore, intelligence isn't just the default once law+chance are ruled out. Intelligence is inferred based on observation of the effects of foresight. CYJman:”Incorrect. A filter that is meant to only catch intelligence is working perfectly fine as long as it only catches intelligence.” Acipenser: "You don’t know that is the case in real-world application of the proposed filter. You are making a prediction that the filter only catches intelligence but there is nothing that demonstrates this with a collection of data." Again, ID Theory is an inference -- an extrapolation of observation -- just as evolutionary theory. First, I only provided a response to your fallacious claim that false negatives were a problem in dealing with a filter that is supposed to catch only intelligence. The filter is used in such a way that false negatives do not matter within the context of a scientific investigation which proposes to catch instances where intelligence is a *necessary* cause. That is all that ID THeory as presently formulated is interested in -- catching instances where intelligence is *required;* a *necessary* cause. If you wish to provide a method whereby a non-necessary intelligence can be detected then go ahead and do so, but there is as of yet none out there and, based on the idea of scientific parsimony, I have reason to suspect that such a methodology can not exist. Second, I've provided the hypothesis and yes I have made a prediction. Merely show a collection of law+chance+whatever you want (absent intelligence) and show it generating CSI, and you will have falsified an ID hypothesis. So long as a collection of data run through the EF, reliably pulls out only those patterns which *require* intelligence as a *necessary* cause, then it works. This can be tested via computer simulations, where random sets of laws with random parameters are run. Will this produce CSI, further information processing systems, evolutionary algorithms, or any type of highly improbable formal organization? Have fun, and I'll catch up with you here later, hopefully.CJYman
January 31, 2010
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Acipenser -- If the laws may be suspended at any moment you would have no idea The idea is that the laws would not be, which is the same as saying the laws of physics won't arbitrarily not be. Why do you believe the laws of physics can't change on a whim? And this is why the axiomatic assumption of the existence of a God who follows that rule is important. Fatima, The Resurrection etc. would not be "any moment" but specific moments to teach people that living solely for material expediency is a fruitless thing.tribune7
January 31, 2010
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Seversky would positing a demon interacting with the material world be science? . . .You can posit whatever you like but, to be useful as an explanation in science, you must describe what it is intended to explain, show that it explains the phenomenon under investigation better than competing explanations and provide means of testing it so that we can decide which is the best. OK, you seem to be agreeing that positing the demon can be science. But how would that not be the anti-thesis of meth-nat?tribune7
January 31, 2010
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Seversky-- The scientific thing to do is to be guided by Ockham’s Razor and accept that we are far from the point where we have identified all naturalistic possibilities (with regard to the existence of the universe etc.) Name one naturalistic possibility that has not been identified.tribune7
January 31, 2010
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CYJman:"When people start applying the hypothesis. What does asking for a timeline have to do with defining “natural,” “supernatural,” and imposing the rule of MN against ID Theory?" Any idea when that will be? Asking for forecast publication dates is only for my personal knowledge and has nothing to do with definitions and was never intended to address any question. It hasn't been demonstrated that anything has been imposed on ID via MN in any form. If ID can provide the methods of research, the results derived from experiments utilizing those methods, and formulates their conclusions based on their evidence without overreaching/overstating what those results mean then there are a multitude of journals that would publish the research. If anyone from any field comes up short on any of those counts they will be told to try again and do better next time. ID can step up to the plate anytime it wishes and there were agencies willing to fund such research but no one bothered to submit any proposals. CYJman "The tornado is definable in terms of law+chance. " It is also definable as agency created and the question is how would you detect the design, or not detect the design to rule out that possibility. CYJman"From a scientific viewpoint, there is no need to invoke an intelligence." That only applies if you insist that no one can use design thinking in conducting their science. CYJman"Yet, when we can rule out law and chance and infer intelligence, there is no scientific reason not to do so. Agreed, or no?" That would depend soley on the methods used to rule out law and chance before any inferences could ever be drawn. You would also have to address other possible contigencies and rule them out as well before inferring an unknown intelligence as a default. CYJman:"Incorrect. A filter that is meant to only catch intelligence is working perfectly fine as long as it only catches intelligence." You don't know that is the case in real-world application of the proposed filter. You are making a prediction that the filter only catches intelligence but there is nothing that demonstrates this with a collection of data. That is the next step that needs to be taken which I suppose encompasses someone actually stepping up and testing the hypotheses mentioned earlier. I'll have to address your other points later I'm off to a dinner out with friends.Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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StephenB @ 72 My apologies for not replying sooner. In skimming through the posts earlier I overlooked your reply
Seversky, you just invested 2958 words without addressing my question @41. You did venture forth a definition so you definitely get points for that, but filling up cyberspace with an unduly long post will not suffice as a demonstration that your definition is usable.
My apologies again for the undue length of that post. I had no idea it was that many words. In my own defense I should point out that it must have been the longest post I have ever written and that there are a few contributors here, such as Kairosfocus, who routinely write much longer posts than I would normally.
If all causes are “natural,” then how do you distinguish the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them. How do you even know that Pompei existed as a civilization. Maybe natural forces only made it appear that way. Maybe natural forces built all the archives.
The problem here lies in the confusion of two usages of the word "natural": natural as opposed to supernatural and natural as opposed to artificial. We recognize the ruins of Pompeii as artificial by their similarity to other products of human artifice. We recognize the volcanic debris at Pompeii as natural by its similarity to that of other volcanoes and its dissimilarity to anything human beings routinely design. The first problem for ID lies not in recognizing human design, we can all do that quite easily, but in reliably identifying design regardless of the designer. The second problem is that, given you have some proposal for a method of identifying all design reliably, how do you prove it? You can test it here on Earth to see if it can discriminate between designed-by-humans and not-designed-by-humans but, until you have a range of alien technology to test it on, there seems to be no way to determine if it can reliably detect non-human design.Seversky
January 31, 2010
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"Jerry, by his own admission, refuses to commit to any unequivocal statement" I have no idea where such an assessment could come from. I am not even sure what this statement means. I made a joke a couple weeks ago about avoiding questions after answering several and in great detail. Something I have never found any anti ID person do. I was trying to illustrate absurdity with absurdity. I go to great lengths to answer questions and often in great detail. So my statement was an obvious absurdity meant to emphasize the lack of such a response from anyone who it anti ID. When I do not respond to something it is because these things have been answered several times in the past so sometimes I do not bother repeating the obvious.jerry
January 31, 2010
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Acipenser: "When are the publications coming out with the results of the hypotheses testing?" When people start applying the hypothesis. What does asking for a timeline have to do with defining "natural," "supernatural," and imposing the rule of MN against ID Theory? Acipenser: "How do we calculate the CSI of a intelligent agent created tornado given that intelligent agents, of the sort we are discussing, have the admitted capability of creating tornados?" The tornado is definable in terms of law+chance. We thus defer to law. From a scientific viewpoint, there is no need to invoke an intelligence. You can discuss the options philosophically or religiously, however this thread is about science and its relation to what some people have called "methodological naturalism" as well as requiring critics of ID, who rule out ID on account of MN, to define "natural" and "supernatural" so that it can be utilized in the term "methodological naturalism." Ancipenser: "What characteristics would an intelligently created tornado possess that a tornado generated from law and chance would not have or is there no way to identify design for something as simple as a tornado?" There is no method for identifying intelligence in such an event. Acipenser: "There were a number of questions @41 and the answer to pretty much all of them would be possible intelligent agent involvment in all cases. Unless we have the methodology to rule intelligent agency actions out we must include it in all of our considerations." First, the main question was for those who "impose" MN as a way of disqualifying ID Theory from science to usefully define "natural" and "supernatural" in such a way that it can be used in the term "methodological naturalism." So far this has not been done. I can see the reason why StephenB has written this thread. Second, the purpose of ID Theory is not to rule out intelligence. From a scientific and parsimonious viewpoint, intelligence as a *required* cause is already ruled out if law+chance can define an event. The purpose is to rule out law+chance while detecting a previous *required* intelligence. If there is no need for parsimony, and one is willing to consider metaphysics, theology, and philosophy, then yes our investigation can proceed in a different direction but the purpose of this thread is to look at ID Theory from a scientific viewpoint, which is how it is indeed formulated. That is why we are dealing with the definitions of "nature," "supernatural," "MN" and how these terms relate to ID Theory. Acipenser: "The answer would have to be both all and none. If the possibility exists of intelligent agent acting then we have no rational reason to rule that out over what you call law and chance but it jsut as likely to be nothing more than due diligence on the part of an intelligent agent." Yet, when we can rule out law and chance and infer intelligence, there is no scientific reason not to do so. Agreed, or no? Acipenser: "Using a methodoogy that generates many false negatives demonstrates that there are problems with the method and brings into direct question the possibility of its accuracy in making positive predictions as well." Incorrect. A filter that is meant to only catch intelligence is working perfectly fine as long as it only catches intelligence. Acipenser: "New chemicals and drugs entering into commerce are required to be tested for reproductive toxicity. Would you be comfortable in having a method used for this testing if it generated many false negatives?" What are the problems of false negatives with the EF? The only "problem" is that events which are definable in terms of law+chance, from a scientific viewpoint, don't require intelligence and indeed are the result of law+chance. From a scientific viewpoint I'm perfectly fine with that, are you? Why wouldn't you be? Remember, we are dealing with this from a scientific viewpoint, since ID Theory is formulated as a scientific theory. The purpose of the EF is to catch previous intelligence through the examination of events which are neither defined by law nor chance. Does this work? Is that a scientific question? So still no useful definition of "natural" and "supernatural?" Does StephenB have a point in stating that MN does not rule out ID Theory from being considered scientifically since the critics can't usefully and in a non-contradictory manner define "natural" and "supernatural?"CJYman
January 31, 2010
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----Adel Dibagnio: "I would enjoy being as confident as you claim to be that I knew all about St Thomas and his position on a subject. But thankfully you have a deeper understanding of God’s relationship to secondary causality. It would be a kindness that I could not easily repay if you would correct my ignorance in some detail – if possible without resorting to irrelevant ad hominems. And tell me why that subject is not relevant to the topic of your OP. Sorry, if I rattled your cage, but you rattled mine first. Inasmuch as you began your comment speculating that I did not know what St. Thomas means by secondary causes, which is not the case, and without explaining how that ties in to the present theme, which would seem to be in order, I don’t think my response was inappropriate. You are, after all, among that happy throng that continues to inject new irrelevancies without answering my old questions or even confronting them. Still, I will try to be a kindler, gentler, blogger. It is not my task, though, to explain why secondary causality doesn’t tie in to the present discussion; it is your task to explain why it does, tying it in with my criticism of MN, using my examples [Pompei vs. Valcano], [Tornado vs. Burglar]. It will not do to just throw it out there with the claim that I don’t understand that subject, which, as it turns out, is not in play here---unless, of course, you think God used secondary causes to produce Pompei and the burglar.StephenB
January 31, 2010
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meant to add this to #127: If a method generates many false negatives it is important to know how many false negatives are generated to calculate the probability of a correct prediction. If the method is only correct half the time or less it is not of much value as a tool for doing anything. Guessing would give equal or perhaps better odds in that case. What percentage of false negatives are generated when this method is applied?Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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CYJman"How do false negatives hinder us in making predictions" Using a methodoogy that generates many false negatives demonstrates that there are problems with the method and brings into direct question the possibility of its accuracy in making positive predictions as well. New chemicals and drugs entering into commerce are required to be tested for reproductive toxicity. Would you be comfortable in having a method used for this testing if it generated many false negatives?Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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[QUOTE]Acipenser: “You would still, however, have to be able to determine how to seperate/assign those effects to demons while not mistaking the actions of fairies, ghosts, leprechans, angels, ect. from those of the demon(s). Can you do this?” CYJman:"I’m sorry, but I might not be following along your reasoning here. Why would we have to separate such things? What would a potential lack of separation do to effect the reliability of detecting intelligence? How do we know these other things actually exist and how are you defining them?" [/QUOTE] My answer was in response to tribunes query about the study of demons and the effects they have on the material world. If you are collecting data on some observable and quantifiable events and you are going to attribute those findings to demons then you do need to not only establish their (demons)existence but define how we assign those effects to demons to the exclusion of angels, ghosts, and all the others I listed and did not list. Otherwise you would be in error in atributes to the demons since many other entities may have been responsible for the observations. I would agree with your asking how we know that any of these things exist in the first place. [QUOTE}Acipenser: “If the effects on the material world are observable then you can measure and quantify those effects on the material world so it would be fairly easy for you to generate hypotheses to test your premise.” Already done. I’m wondering, how much have you read on ID Theory? Anything by Trevors and Abel or Dembski or Dembski and Marks?[/QUOTE] you are taking my answers out of context and trying to fit them into something other than they were intended to address. When are the publications coming out with the results of the hypotheses testing? I am assuming that these are actual calculations for actual biological entities and not probability calculations of the tornado in a junkyard form. [QUOTE]Merely generate CSI (as I’ve shown how to calculate above) from law+chance absent intelligence.[/QUOTE] How do we calculate the CSI of a intelligent agent created tornado given that intelligent agents, of the sort we are discussing, have the admitted capability of creating tornados? What characteristics would an intelligently created tornado possess that a tornado generated from law and chance would not have or is there no way to identify design for something as simple as a tornado? [QUOTE]First, the question in #41 has to do with how the critic is going to define his terms — “natural” and “supernatural” — in a useful way so that MN can then be imposed. That has yet to happen on this thread.[/QUOTE] There were a number of questions @41 and the answer to pretty much all of them would be possible intelligent agent involvment in all cases. Unless we have the methodology to rule intelligent agency actions out we must include it in all of our considerations. [QUOTE]Second, sure theoretically all events could be directed by an intelligence, but apart from mere possibilities (in which the cause could be either intelligence or law+chance, 50-50), which events allow us to arrive at a reasonably certain design inference?[/QUOTE] The answer would have to be both all and none. If the possibility exists of intelligent agent acting then we have no rational reason to rule that out over what you call law and chance but it jsut as likely to be nothing more than due diligence on the part of an intelligent agent.Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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Acipenser: "In the case of the existence of of an intelligent agent the answer to all of the questions posed in #41 would be that they are all possibly events directed by an intelligent agent." First, the question in #41 has to do with how the critic is going to define his terms -- "natural" and "supernatural" -- in a useful way so that MN can then be imposed. That has yet to happen on this thread. Second, sure theoretically all events could be directed by an intelligence, but apart from mere possibilities (in which the cause could be either intelligence or law+chance, 50-50), which events allow us to arrive at a reasonably certain design inference? Acipenser: "I didn’t forget your answer but felt that the answer was so vague as to have little defining power." Well, then you "felt" wrong. Acipenser: "For example the arbitrary assignment of something to the realm of law and chance while ignoring the possibility of an intelligent agent may certainly generate a lot of false negatives which detracts from any ability to make any meaningful predictions." What arbitrary assignment? Did I post these explanations for you: -https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/polanyi-and-ontogenetic-emergence/#comment-337588 -https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/what-is-intelligence/#comment-341828 -https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-and-common-descent/comment-page-5/#comment-345511 How do false negatives hinder us in making predictions such as "if life is the results of intelligence it will contain CSI" or "law+chance absent intelligence will not generate CSI" or "there is a definite correlation between foresight and organized, specified, events which are neither defined by law nor best explained by chance." Acipenser: "I also don’t know of any examples of positives let alone false postives made from any analysis or predictions." Merely generate CSI (as I've shown how to calculate above) from law+chance absent intelligence. Random.org will come in handy for the random generation of parameters for the laws. There will be your false positive if you ... er ... the randomly generated set of laws succeed in forming these events which are neither defined by law nor chance, yet are observed to require foresight in their generation. Acipenser: "If the effects on the material world are observable then you can measure and quantify those effects on the material world so it would be fairly easy for you to generate hypotheses to test your premise." Already done. I'm wondering, how much have you read on ID Theory? Anything by Trevors and Abel or Dembski or Dembski and Marks? Acipenser: "You would still, however, have to be able to determine how to seperate/assign those effects to demons while not mistaking the actions of fairies, ghosts, leprechans, angels, ect. from those of the demon(s). Can you do this?" I'm sorry, but I might not be following along your reasoning here. Why would we have to separate such things? What would a potential lack of separation do to effect the reliability of detecting intelligence? How do we know these other things actually exist and how are you defining them?CJYman
January 31, 2010
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