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METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
tribune7 @ 15
OK everyone, ponder this: would positing a demon interacting with the material world be science?
You can posit whatever you like but, to be useful as an explanation in science, you must describe what it is intended to explain, show that it explains the phenomenon under investigation better than competing explanations and provide means of testing it so that we can decide which is the best.Seversky
January 31, 2010
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Yesterday, StephenB said:
—-Adel DiBagno: “I think StephenB may misunderstand the difference between primary and secondary causation as construed by such medieval thinkers as the Angelic Doctor (ca. 1225-1274):” You think wrongly. I know all about St. Thomas and his position on Divine causality, just as I know that your attempt to link it to this discussion reflects a superficial understanding of it. How remarkable it is that Darwinists will go to such lengths to evade issues and duck questions.
I would enjoy being as confident as you claim to be that I knew all about St Thomas and his position on a subject. But thankfully you have a deeper understanding of God’s relationship to secondary causality. It would be a kindness that I could not easily repay if you would correct my ignorance in some detail – if possible without resorting to irrelevant ad hominems. And tell me why that subject is not relevant to the topic of your OP.Adel DiBagno
January 31, 2010
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tribune7:"Or the Resurrection. They would not be arbitrary but violations of the laws of physics done with a specific point, namely to show that the temporal laws are temporal, and that we must not forget the more important thing which is the eternal." You are presuming to know the motives of the intelligent agent but you cannot know if your musings are true or not. It is just as likely that the event was an arbitrary act perhaps after a bout of hiccups or such. We have no way of knowing one way or the other. tribune7:"You can still believe in Fatima (and the Resurrection) as you design a new airplane or plan a road through the woodlands without being afraid of invoking the wrath of God, at least as far as the science and engineering go." That doesn't logically follow. If the laws may be suspended at any moment you would have no idea if your design would work since the premises on which that design were made may change at any point in time. It would be of little comfort to the passengers of the plane to know that the engineers designed the aircraft based on laws that are flexible and known to change. Using Occam's razor a better explanation for Fatima is the well known and documented effect on staring into the sun and its effect on visual hallucinations. Or we can believe that the billions of other people in the world just happened to miss the sun spinning around, moving and changing colors.Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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tribune7 @ 114
There are a lot of things some don’t observe but whose existence they infer, well, like evolution from a single common ancestor :-) .
Quite true, and our confidence in the accuracy of those inferences depends on the material evidence we can find to substantiate them.
Regardless, reason tells us that something operating outside of nature caused nature to come to be — how can the laws of nature create nature? –; that the order that exists in nature indicates this cause to be intelligent and purposeful; and that this creator does not arbitrarily violate the laws of nature as the gods of the Romans and perhaps the god of Islam.
Honesty compels us to admit that as yet we simply don't know why the Universe is as it is, who or what caused it to be this way or what, if anything, preceded it. Yes, it is a large gap in our knowledge and if you want to plug a god into it, you can. It is still an argument from ignorance, though.
So, the smartest thing to do is to take the existence of the Judeo-Christian God as axiomatic and work from there.:-)
The scientific thing to do is to be guided by Ockham's Razor and accept that we are far from the point where we have identified all naturalistic possibilities let alone exhausted them so we have no need yet to invoke a deity as an explanation.Seversky
January 31, 2010
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tribune7:"The demon would not be part of the material world. It cannot be measured nor be subject to a controlled experiment. It would, however, be able to affect the material world. Is considering the possibility of such a thing science? " If the effects on the material world are observable then you can measure and quantify those effects on the material world so it would be fairly easy for you to generate hypotheses to test your premise. You would still, however, have to be able to determine how to seperate/assign those effects to demons while not mistaking the actions of fairies, ghosts, leprechans, angels, ect. from those of the demon(s). Can you do this?Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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Sorry Acipenser, I missed this. Where would events like those claimed for Fatima fit in if not in the arbitrary violation of the laws of nature? Or the Resurrection. They would not be arbitrary but violations of the laws of physics done with a specific point, namely to show that the temporal laws are temporal, and that we must not forget the more important thing which is the eternal. You can still believe in Fatima (and the Resurrection) as you design a new airplane or plan a road through the woodlands without being afraid of invoking the wrath of God, at least as far as the science and engineering go. Now, if you are stealing the land or using shoddy materials that would be a different subject, but even there the wrath would not come via a failure of physics.tribune7
January 31, 2010
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Acipenser--would positing a demon interacting with the material world be science?” . . .Only if we can definitively seperate the influences of demons from ghosts and fairies on the material world. The demon would not be part of the material world. It cannot be measured nor be subject to a controlled experiment. It would, however, be able to affect the material world. Is considering the possibility of such a thing science? :-)tribune7
January 31, 2010
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CYJman:"The answer to that question I believe is blatantly obvious … the possible inclusion of intelligence as a causal factor." In the case of the existence of of an intelligent agent the answer to all of the questions posed in #41 would be that they are all possibly events directed by an intelligent agent. CYJman:"I already dealt with this in my comment #88, point 2, which you even quoted in your comment #91, but apparently forgot already. Basically, the Explanatory Filter flows from chance and law to intelligence, so there is possibility for false negatives, but so far no one has shown any false positives. So the methodology for detecting design is akin to a filter in which, when it does catch something, we can be reasonably certain that a previous intelligence was responsible. However, when law+chance can explain said event, we defer to law+chance." I didn't forget your answer but felt that the answer was so vague as to have little defining power. For example the arbitrary assignment of something to the realm of law and chance while ignoring the possibility of an intelligent agent may certainly generate a lot of false negatives which detracts from any ability to make any meaningful predictions. I also don't know of any examples of positives let alone false postives made from any analysis or predictions. tribune7:Regardless, reason tells us that something operating outside of nature caused nature to come to be — how can the laws of nature create nature? –; that the order that exists in nature indicates this cause to be intelligent and purposeful; and that this creator does not arbitrarily violate the laws of nature as the gods of the Romans and perhaps the god of Islam." Where would events like those claimed for Fatima fit in if not in the arbitrary violation of the laws of nature? tribune7"So, does science require MN? OK everyone, ponder this: would positing a demon interacting with the material world be science?" Only if we can definitively seperate the influences of demons from ghosts and fairies on the material world. Once we can do this the hypothesis testing can begin but until we can we can only speculate with a distinct inability to perform any tests of our hypotheses.Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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efren ts: "A perfectly legitimate question was posed in comment 3 that has not been answered except with rhetorical devices, which were laid bare in my comment 60 above, or by attempts to divert the discussion to ancillary ground." There can be no answer to those questions until "nature" and "supernatural" are usefully defined, so that they can be utilized in a non-contradictory manner in context of the critics definition of methodological naturalism as used in those questions, which is exactly what StephenB is asking for in #41. As I've already explained in #90 and #107 above, StephenB has been the only one here to provide a useful (although ultimately artificial) definition of natural and supernatural. Your comment #3 and #60 also requires you to define nature -- you state "using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism)." So, what exactly do you mean by those terms. You are using them, so you must have a good definition of "nature" so that you can apply it to "using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism)." However, if that is indeed your definition of MN ("using nature to explain nature"), which your quote seems to imply then that is merely more circular, ill-defined, "gobeldegook" as they say. There can be no answer to your questions until you provide a useful and non-contradictory definition of "nature" as opposed to "super-nature." It seems that this post of StephenB's is right on the money. ... And you accuse StephenB of obfuscation??????? At least he has usefully defined the demarcation between natural and supernatural, which is something you have yet to do. You merely make assertions and ask ill-formed questions while refusing to define the relevant terms. efron ts: "PS: I will set aside, for the moment, another reasonable question posed in comment 78, which should be trivially answered if the proposition advanced in the OP is to be believed." The answer to that question I believe is blatantly obvious ... the possible inclusion of intelligence as a causal factor. efron ts: "PPS: I will also note, KF, that you have failed to address the disparity between Stephen’s assertion of MN being a “universally binding rule” and your assertion that it applies only to biology." Did StephenB state that MN is a universally binding rule, or did he state that many scientist believe that MN is a universally binding principle? I'm not sure I follow the question. Could you clear that up for me please.CJYman
January 31, 2010
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So, does science require MN? OK everyone, ponder this: would positing a demon interacting with the material world be science?tribune7
January 31, 2010
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Seversky -- Unfortunately, we do not observe a god, Judeo-Christian or otherwise. There are a lot of things some don't observe but whose existence they infer, well, like evolution from a single common ancestor :-). Regardless, reason tells us that something operating outside of nature caused nature to come to be -- how can the laws of nature create nature? --; that the order that exists in nature indicates this cause to be intelligent and purposeful; and that this creator does not arbitrarily violate the laws of nature as the gods of the Romans and perhaps the god of Islam. So, the smartest thing to do is to take the existence of the Judeo-Christian God as axiomatic and work from there.:-)tribune7
January 31, 2010
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Acipenser #109: "The example presented by StephenB only works if we can agree that control of natural forces are beyond the scope of an intelligent agent responsible for creating the universe. If the intelligent agent is, however, capable of controlling and influencing natural forces, i.e., tornados, ect, then we cannot rule out the possibility that the ransacking of the house was caused by this intelligent agent and not bears or humans. We will need to establish how we would go about ruling this possibility out, i.e., how do we detect this type of design and how do we deal with the data/information if we cannot rule out this designer." So can we agree that intelligent agents cannot influence (and control) natural forces and thus rule out this possibility?" I already dealt with this in my comment #88, point 2, which you even quoted in your comment #91, but apparently forgot already. Basically, the Explanatory Filter flows from chance and law to intelligence, so there is possibility for false negatives, but so far no one has shown any false positives. So the methodology for detecting design is akin to a filter in which, when it does catch something, we can be reasonably certain that a previous intelligence was responsible. However, when law+chance can explain said event, we defer to law+chance.CJYman
January 31, 2010
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PPS: I will also note, KF, that you have failed to address the disparity between Stephen's assertion of MN being a "universally binding rule" and your assertion that it applies only to biology.efren ts
January 31, 2010
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PS: I will set aside, for the moment, another reasonable question posed in comment 78, which should be trivially answered if the proposition advanced in the OP is to be believed.efren ts
January 31, 2010
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KF:
And that is why every effort is being bent above to cloud the issue or distract attention from it.
Indeed. A perfectly legitimate question was posed in comment 3 that has not been answered except with rhetorical devices, which were laid bare in my comment 60 above, or by attempts to divert the discussion to ancillary ground. One might say that Stephen has soaked a strawman in the oil of ad nauseum and set ablaze, generating the smoke of obfuscation.efren ts
January 31, 2010
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CJYman:"StephenB’s example of the burgler vs. the tornado as causal explanation is a great example. " The example presented by StephenB only works if we can agree that control of natural forces are beyond the scope of an intelligent agent responsible for creating the universe. If the intelligent agent is, however, capable of controlling and influencing natural forces, i.e., tornados, ect, then we cannot rule out the possibility that the ransacking of the house was caused by this intelligent agent and not bears or humans. We will need to establish how we would go about ruling this possibility out, i.e., how do we detect this type of design and how do we deal with the data/information if we cannot rule out this designer. So can we agree that intelligent agents cannot influence (and control) natural forces and thus rule out this possibility?Acipenser
January 31, 2010
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Folks: First, I have already put down a far more reasonable analytical framework that is not burdened with a priori metaphysical commitments that there either must not be or are specific entities beyond the world of material objects. (Though, I must note that the properies of mind to ground the enterprise of reason, are radically different from those of material objects in space-time. So, if one imagines that there are no pointers that art least arguably beyond the matter-energy space-time, force and inertia dynamics and parameters of the physicalist view, one is doing so a priori and in the teeth of some serious evidence; by exerting self-referentially inconsistent selective hyperskepticism.) It seems I need to cite two key notes on the matter: First, Lewontin in his infamous Jan 1997 NYRB review:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added.]
And here is Johnson's richly deserved corrective, November 1997:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. When the public understands this clearly, Lewontin’s Darwinism will start to move out of the science curriculum and into the department of intellectual history, where it can gather dust on the shelf next to Lewontin’s Marxism. [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77, pp. 22 – 25.]
So, who is begging questions now, and who is grounded on the world of experience as minded en-conscienced creatures -- our first and only direct empirical datum! -- I ask you. Remember, science at its best should be . . .
the unfettered (but intellectually and ethically responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our world, based on observations, inferred explanations/ modelling/ theorising and analytical discussion among the informed
the problem with imposing a priori materialism -- what motivates and in fact defines what methodological naturalism in the relevant sense since the 1980's is about -- is that it censors origins sciecne from eing able to be an unfettered pursuit of the truth about origins, and is intellectually and ethically irresponsible. once the public understands that clearly, it does not matter wehatthe magisterium tries, they will have lost all credibility. And that is why every effort is being bent above to cloud the issue or distract attention from it. Moreover, that is why the idea and question of what "nature" is and whether it is equivalent to reality, are so centrally important. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 31, 2010
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nullasalus: "Incidentally, I have my own deep disagreements with StephenB. In fact, I’ve gone toe to toe with him over MN in the past – defending it, insisting that it is a necessity of science, etc. And I’ve done so on this site. I have since changed my mind, in a big way. And the considerable amount of squirming, equivocation, and nonsense we’re seeing in this thread on behalf of MN-defenders played more than a small role in the changing of my mind." nullasalus, your views seem to be quite close to mine, except that I see the difference between "natural" and "supernatural" (as StephenB has defined the terms) as artificial, yet useful as I've briefly mentioned above in #88. There seems to still be no useful definition of "natural" and "supernatural" other than what StephenB has offered? How are the critics to impose MN if they can't even tell us what it means in a useful, non-contradictory manner? BTW, during this discussion of MN, I have become more agnostic towards the use of MN in science. I still see the division between natural and supernatural as artificial, since "nature" includes all that exists. Our knowledge keeps expanding and thus what used to be "supernatural" (ie: not-understandable) in the future becomes "natural" as we understand it. Yet, there are patterns and events which are not defined by law, however still exist within nature. StephenB's example of the burgler vs. the tornado as causal explanation is a great example. So those patterns and events are natural in the sense of existing, and existing in nature, yet those patterns and events are supernatural in the sense of not being defined by law. So I'm back at the distinction between natural and supernatural as being artificial yet useful to distinguish law+chance from agency. So, does science require MN? It sure does require an objective and repeatable methodology, and one that investigates that which is "real" -- "natural" -- yet there is no good reason for only including explanations that boil down to law+chance since there do objectively exist patterns and events which are neither defined by law, nor best explained by chance, yet have been observed to require the application of foresight (agency). Furthermore, if intelligence is indeed not attainable from a random set of laws (law+chance absent previous intelligence), then it is indeed supernatural if one defines nature as "law+chance." And then, these comments we are writing become partly "supernatural." As seen here, the supernatural doesn't have to be spooky and include "gods and demons" or angels pushing around spheres. What's more, the "supernatural", as defined by StephenB, can be investigated through objective, repeatable, probabilistic measurements and inference from observation. That is my answer to this conundrum so far.CJYman
January 31, 2010
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tribune7 @ 103
The smart thing to do is to take the existence of the Judeo-Christian God as axiomatic and work from there.
The smarter thing to do is to start with what we can observe and work from there. Unfortunately, we do not observe a god, Judeo-Christian or otherwise. 103 tribune7 01/31/2010 9:50 am ‘Supernatural’ = ‘unknown’ (for all intents and purposes). That one doesn’t work, FG. If it’s unknown it’s unknown. In fact, to declare the unknown as supernatural would end science as we know it. Supernatural means not bound by the laws of physics. The smart thing to do is to take the existence of the Judeo-Christian God as axiomatic and work from there.Seversky
January 31, 2010
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kairosfocus @ 101
MN as exclusionary rule is ONLY brought to bear when assertions and assumptions of evolutionary materialism are directly under challenge.
What MN refuses to accept, as you should, are unsubstantiated claims.Seversky
January 31, 2010
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‘Supernatural’ = ‘unknown’ (for all intents and purposes). That one doesn't work, FG. If it's unknown it's unknown. In fact, to declare the unknown as supernatural would end science as we know it. Supernatural means not bound by the laws of physics. The smart thing to do is to take the existence of the Judeo-Christian God as axiomatic and work from there.tribune7
January 31, 2010
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KF:
MN as exclusionary rule is ONLY brought to bear when assertions and assumptions of evolutionary materialism are directly under challenge.
Take it up with Stephen who, in the third paragraph of the OP, refers to it as a "universally binding rule." Or do you all have a different definition for "universal", as well. This is for you, Clive:
When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
efren ts
January 31, 2010
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ET: MN as exclusionary rule is ONLY brought to bear when assertions and assumptions of evolutionary materialism are directly under challenge. Gkairosfocus
January 31, 2010
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Folks: I will not essay to once aqnd for all define "natural" and "supernatural," but I can point out that we do routinely observe a pattern of sometimes interacting causal factors:
1: mechanical necessity expressing itself in predictably lawlike deterministic physical forces and dynamics [e.g. newtonian dynamics and the like] 2: High contingency exhibiting stochastic patterns that fit with one or other of the many random process statistical models, and tracing to chance [e.g. statistical mechanics and links to thermodynamic quantities such as temperature, pressure etc], 3: Contingency tracing to purposeful intelligent cause [e.g. the highly contingent pattern of characters in ext as in this and other posts is credibly purposeful and not merely a manifestation of random statistical patterns]
Different aspects of a given situation can in principle trace to one or more of these factors, and so it makes a lot of sense to create a general framework for empirically based explanatory investigations -- AKA science -- that can address the three in a balanced and straightforward fashion. (My modest proposal along these lines is here. Maybe someone can figure out how to post the image of the flowchart for me . . . but if so please do not link to the freebie site and overload its resources! [Would UD be willing to put up a copy and link from it?]) With that framework in hand, I would propose that "natural" is most objectively and coherently used to imply that which traces to factors 1 and 2 separately or in combination, especially when we speak of spontaneous processes tracing to initial conditions that could as well have been that way as any other within a range of possible values with little material difference to the outcome. And, the most fruitful contrast to "natural" is then factor 3: art-ificially -- i.e. intelligently -- caused phenomena. This makes no metaphysical commitment, but enables us to address the legitimate question of the most credible causal factors at work objectively and empirically. The issue of the "supernatural" then comes up as a set of logically possible candidates for intelligent cause, per worldviews that suggest such [theism etc] and those that do not [materialism etc]. Under certain circumstances it may then be more or less plausible that certain credibly or arguably intelligently caused phenomena -- so identified by empirically tested and reliable signs of intelligence -- are caused by agents that are beyond the material cosmos that we observe. It may even become relevant to discuss whether our minds exhibit the patterns that are characteristic of matter in motion solely under blind stochastic chance and deterministic laws from arbitrary initial conditions. (I think that evolutionary materialist accounts of the mind run into serious self referential incoherence, and here, in part, is why.) A good candidate for supernatural cause -- in the sense of a powerful and very wise intelligence beyond the observed fine tuned cosmos -- would be the creator of our observed cosmos. I also think that we may be able to eventually create artificial secondary intelligences [at least in a functional sense] using advanced computer technology. But notice, I am speaking here of an intelligently caused process carrying out creative information rich syntheses far beyond the capacity of chance + necessity alone on the gamut of our observed cosmos. Steve, does this help? G'day GEM of TKI PS: nullasalus, welcome aboard. PPS: FG, I would adjust:
Natural = non man-made, ie. opposed to ‘artificial’ [or intelligently and purposefully caused]. Non-natural = man-made [or caused by a comparable intelligent, purposeful cause . . . room for Kzinti, Treecats and R Daneel Olivaw etc . .. ].
kairosfocus
January 31, 2010
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Faded Glory:
Non-natural = man-made.
In that case, someone better warn the anthropologists that they are violating methodological naturalism and it is only a matter of time before the biologists, with Eugenie Scott at the fore, expel them from the academy.efren ts
January 31, 2010
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Clive:
I too am interested in the definitions of natural and supernatural. Please enlighten me all ye evolutionists.
I am sure you are, but that still doesn't change the fact Stephen has yet to answer several questions regarding his putative indictment of methodological naturalism.efren ts
January 31, 2010
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Here is my proposal: Natural = non man-made, ie. opposed to 'artificial'. Non-natural = man-made. 'Supernatural' = 'unknown' (for all intents and purposes). Question to ponder: are spiderwebs, beaver dams and termite mounds natural or non-natural? Under the scheme above they are obviously natural. Anyone wants to take a different view? fGfaded_Glory
January 31, 2010
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The 'evilutionists' regard 'natural' causes, as those that can be observed, measured, etc and 'supernatural' as all the rest: gods, spirits, all that. Thus intelligent causes are just a sub-set of natural causes. One is blind and undirected, the other a result of an intelligent agent, but both are explainable in purely materialistic terms, ie: neither require gods, spirits, etc. However, I think StephenB regards Intelligence as a process that cannot be explained in purely materialistic terms, and this is what catches the evilutionists off guard. I think agentorange didnt get this (but I may be wrong). So, how am I going ? Is this a reasonable assesment so far ? If we cant agree on such a basic idea we had better give it away.Graham1
January 30, 2010
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I too am interested in the definitions of natural and supernatural. Please enlighten me all ye evolutionists. :)Clive Hayden
January 30, 2010
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StephenB answers questions repeatedly. His sin is that he is thorough, and susses out exactly what is being asked - which typically involves exposing unspoken assumptions (such as the natural v supernatural distinction). Exposing these and asking for clarification and justification tends to make some original lines of questioning fall apart. That's the cost of rational discourse. Calling his questioning "hamfisted rhetorical tricks" is - surprise - a hamfisted rhetorical trick. When the subject is "methodological naturalism", I think asking someone to give a rigid definition of what is natural and what is not natural is entirely fair. That so many people are squirming on this point while apparently striving to defend "methodological naturalism" speaks volumes. Incidentally, I have my own deep disagreements with StephenB. In fact, I've gone toe to toe with him over MN in the past - defending it, insisting that it is a necessity of science, etc. And I've done so on this site. I have since changed my mind, in a big way. And the considerable amount of squirming, equivocation, and nonsense we're seeing in this thread on behalf of MN-defenders played more than a small role in the changing of my mind.nullasalus
January 30, 2010
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