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Methodological naturalism: Science enabler or science stopper? A response to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle.

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In a recent thread which has attracted a lot of lively comment, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle (a highly respected critic of Intelligent Design who surely needs no introduction here) mounted a vigorous defense of methodological naturalism (“MN”). She began by developing her view of the way science works, in a post on the thread:

[T]he idea that any scientific theory stops science is completely false. Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less.

In a subsequent post, Dr. Liddle then proceeded to explain why her view of science necessitates the adoption of methodological naturalism:

Yes, rejection of “MN” is religious, for a very simple reason.

It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause. With “methodological naturalism” we keep on investigating. With “methodological non-naturalism” you may reach a place you have to stop, because you’ve met the “non-material” part.

That stoppage is the religious rejection of “MN”.

I’ll repeat what I just posted elsewhere: “MN” is not a limitation on science. It is quite the opposite. It’s what leads us to keep searching. Rejecting “MN” is what poses limitations on investigation, not the acceptance of MN.

Dr. Liddle elaborated her views in another post on the same thread:

At the point at which you say: “this is not a material cause” you stop investigating. That’s all methodological non-materialism is – it’s stopping when you get to a bit you can’t explain by a material mechanism, and saying “something non-material did this bit”. Methodological materialism is not stopping…

I’d like to make a few comments at this point:

The Contingency Of The Ongoing Success Of Science

It is a contingent matter that we live in a universe where science is possible at all, even if we adopt a fairly minimal definition of “science,” such as: “the systematic tabulation [by intelligent beings] of observed correlations between various kinds of events, in a way that can be described mathematically.” The word “mathematical” is of critical importance here. The observation that the seasons go round in an annual cycle is not science. Nor is the observation that an animal will die if you slash its jugular vein. Both of these observed regularities have been of great practical use to human beings; and indeed, humans could not survive in a world without natural regularities which they could rely on. However, human beings could certainly survive quite well in a world in which they were aware of natural regularities, but were unable to describe them in mathematical language. In fact, for most of human history, that is precisely how we have lived.

I can make the same point in another way. Imagine an alternative world in which there were natural regularities, but in which no natural phenomena could be described by simple equations such as v = u + at (the first equation for uniform accelerated motion), or T^2 = K.(r^3) (Kepler’s third law). The mathematics required to describe natural phenomena in such a world might be too complex for the beings of limited intelligence who happened to live in it; hence science would forever elude them, although their technology might be quite good.

It is also a contingent matter that we live in a universe in which scientific enterprise can go on and on, with no end in sight. One can certainly imagine ways in which science might fizzle out. If we lived in a world of very limited variety, we might be able to fully describe its workings after only 100 years of scientific observations – and after that, we’d have to do something else to keep ourselves amused. Or we might hit a brick wall in scientific research for financial reasons: increased spending on scientific research might yield sharply diminishing scientific returns, so that after discovering the first few scientific laws, we found that the discovery of further laws rapidly became increasingly unaffordable.

So when Dr. Liddle writes that “Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less,” my reply is: “Does it have to be that way? I think not.” In 1997, John Horgan wrote a best-selling book titled, The End of Science, in which he addressed the questions: Have all the big questions been answered? Has all the knowledge worth pursuing become known? Interestingly, some of the scientists he interviewed were inclined to answer these questions in the affirmative.

Science, then, may well have an end, whether we like it or not.

All Scientific Explanations Have To Stop Somewhere

The next point to consider is that all scientific explanations have to stop somewhere – otherwise we get an infinite regress of explanations, which doesn’t explain anything. Of course, Intelligent Design critics are perfectly aware of this point, which is why they often raise the objection: “Who designed the Designer?”

So even if Dr. Liddle is correct in maintaining that a non-material cause is a science-stopper, we have to ask ourselves: “Is there a better place at which we should stop asking scientific questions than the point where the Immaterial Designer supposedly makes contact with Nature?” And my answer to that question is: “If you think there’s a better point at which to stop the process of scientific enquiry, then prove it’s better, by demonstrating to me that going beyond that point is scientifically more productive than simply taking the Designer’s alleged point of interface with Nature as a ‘given.’ After all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

Jefferson’s Deity And The Cosmos As A Simulation: How Dr. Liddle Confuses “Non-Material” With “Non-Natural”

Dr. Liddle writes that “It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause.” But even if the Designer of Nature were a material cause, the material processes underlying His acts of design would still elude scientific investigation, simply because He is outside Nature, which means that the workings of His body will forever elude us.

President Thomas Jefferson firmly believed in a Designer of the laws of the universe, even though he believed that the universe had always existed. As he wrote in his letter to John Adams, of April 11, 1823:

… I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition…We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order…Some early Christians indeed have believed in the coeternal pre-existence of both the Creator and the world, without changing their relation of cause and effect.

At the same time, Jefferson regarded the notion of an immaterial Deity as utterly nonsensical. He explained his theological position in a letter to John Adams, dated August 15, 1820:

When once we quit the basis of sensation, all is in the wind. To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart.

Thus Jefferson envisaged the Deity as an embodied Being, eternally maintaining the universe in its law-governed order. If we let “Physics A” refer to the laws of our cosmos, and “Physics B” denote the laws governing the body of Jefferson’s Deity, which exists outside our cosmos, then it follows that since God is independent of the cosmos, our scientists will never be able to investigate Physics B, and hence will never understand the material processes underlying the Designer of Nature.

Or we can put it another way, and imagine that the entire cosmos – by which I mean everything in reality (inside or outside the visible universe) which is subject to the laws of Nature uncovered by our scientists – is part of a giant simulation, which was created as a science experiment by intelligent beings who are not subject to these laws that they have set up for the simulation. In that case, once again, the Designers of Nature would be material beings, but their materiality would be of a different sort to our own, as they would be subject to completely different laws, which are unobservable to our scientists, as they have no way of accessing the world outside the simulation.

What this tells us, then, is that Dr. Liddle is badly confused when she argues that an immaterial Designer would be a science-stopper. The problem here is not the immateriality of the Designer, but His existing outside the natural order which He has created i.e. the Designer’s transcendence, rather than His immateriality.

Rejection Of Methodological Naturalism Is Not Religious

Even if the rejection of methodological naturalism should prove to be a “science-stopper,” as Dr. Liddle argues, it still would not follow that “rejection of ‘MN’ is religious,” as she claims. In order to show that, one would have to show that rejection of methodological naturalism entails the existence of a Designer Who is also a suitable object of worship. Dr. Liddle has not supplied any argument to this effect. Her use of the term “religious” is pejorative; it demeans the serious philosophical arguments put forward by those thinkers whose vision of science is different from her own.

A Designer Of Nature Can Always Explain More Than Methodological Naturalism

In any case, the scope of phenomena that can be explained by postulating an Intelligent Designer of Nature will always be larger than the scope of phenomena that can be explained within the framework of methodological naturalism. The reason is simple: scientific explanations which accept the constraints of methodological naturalism are bound to take the laws of Nature for granted; whereas scientific explanations which go beyond the constraints imposed by methodological naturalism are capable in principle of explaining the laws of Nature.

The Failure Of Pythagoreanism

I might add that since the laws of Nature are immaterial abstractions, the current practice of halting our scientific explanations when we arrive at the ultimate laws of Nature is tantamount to stopping one’s demand for explanations at something immaterial.

Laws are abstractions. They are even less like material entities than an incorporeal Designer. It is odd that Dr. Liddle has no objection to the enterprise of explaining the world in terms of abstract mathematics, but objects vigorously to explaining the world as the product of a Designer Who wanted to make a cosmos fit for intelligent life. So I would like to ask Dr. Liddle, “Why do you consider an explanation of the cosmos as the product of an immaterial Intelligent Agent to be even worse than an explanation of the cosmos as the product of abstract mathematical entitles like numbers and forms, as Pythagoras thought it was? Surely an immaterial Intelligent Agent can do a better job of generating the cosmos than the number 4.”

Could A Designer of Nature Be Used To Explain Anything And Everything?

A hint as to why Dr. Liddle finds Intelligent Design explanations so unconvincing can be found in a lengthy but interesting comment she made on the same thread, in which she argued that the notion of an immaterial Designer is scientifically vicious, because it could be used to explain anything and everything, and that an explanation of that sort really explains nothing:

OK, let me try this a different way:

If you postulate an invisible intelligent power who can do anything, without leaving any trace of the tools of his/her trade, nor presence, apart from the artefacts s/he leaves behind, there is nothing you can’t explain. Giraffe recurrent laryngeal nerve? No problem, designer wanted it that way. Human female pelvis? Who are we to judge the designer? Hyena reproduction? Well perhaps the designer hated hyenas. Parasites that kill children? Well, perhaps the designer likes parasites more than children. Nested hierarchies? Well, s/he just liked designing that way. No bird lungs for mammals? Well, why shouldn’t s/he try something different, and why shouldn’t s/he keep those bird lungs strictly for the animals that look as though they descended in a particular lineage. In fact, why shouldn’t the designer make the world look as though it evolved?

That’s why a non-material, uncharacterised designer is not an explanation. An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.

However, if you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

But to do this work, IDists would have to postulate a material designer. Without doing so, none of this work is possible.

That’s the sense in which commitment to non-material causes stops science. Scientists don’t have to believe there are no non-material causes to do science. It’s just that the tools of science can’t investigate them. They are matters of faith, not science.

Immaterial Does Not Mean Inscrutable

Dr. Liddle appears to be setting up a straw man here. There have been theists who have laid great emphasis on what they call the sovereign will of God, to such an extent that they maintain it is not restricted by anything at all. God, they say, can will literally anything. I agree with Dr. Liddle that such a Deity would indeed be utterly capricious, able to explain everything and nothing. If there is a science-friendly Designer, He must be a Being Who is only able to will what is rational.

In her post, Dr. Liddle contends that “An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.” That’s a good argument against “a non-material, uncharacterised designer” but not against a Designer Whose objective is to create sentient and sapient beings, and Who uses His Intellect to accomplish this end in the wisest way possible. What kind of design flaws would we expect such a Designer to tolerate? I would answer: those flaws that cannot be avoided, because they arise as a result of conflicting biological constraints. A Designer would have no choice but to tolerate these.

The Perils Of Picture Thinking

I should point out that the mere fact that we can imagine a better design for an organism does not make it possible in reality. In a previous post of mine, entitled, Of Pegasus and Pangloss: Two Recurring Fallacies of Skeptics, I warned against the dangers of using picture thinking as a guide to possibility, when alleging instances of bad design:

…[T]he problem with this line of thinking is that it conflates two distinct notions: picturability and conceivability. Only the latter can tell us what is possible. Picture thinking cannot….

And that brings me to Pegasus, the winged horse. Is Pegasus possible? Certainly he’s picturable, as the image on the left at the beginning of this post clearly proves. But is he conceivable? Surely not. Just ask yourself a simple question: how does he fly? According to the laws of aerodynamics which obtain in our universe, this should be impossible. Picturability, then, is not a reliable guide to possibility. To argue that a better world is possible simply because we can picture it is to engage in childish thinking.

“Pegasus-thinking”, as I shall call it, is a besetting sin of Darwinists – by which I mean, advocates of an unguided evolutionary process whose principal mechanism is natural selection winnowing random variation. For instance, Professor Jerry Coyne argues in his book, Why Evolution is True (Viking Adult Press, 2009) that the male prostate gland is badly designed because the urethra runs through it, making men liable to enlargement and infection in later life. Aside from the fact that Coyne’s argument open to question on empirical grounds – creationist Jonathan Sarfati asserts that the risk of enlargement appears to be largely diet-related in his 2008 article, The Prostate Gland – is it “badly designed”? – Coyne is essentially arguing that because we can imagine a better design, therefore one is possible; and since we don’t find it in Nature, it follows that Nature is not the work of an Intelligent Creator. The question-begging underlying this argument should be readily apparent.

What About All Those Instances Of Bad Design?

Let’s start with Dr. Liddle’s example of bird lungs. Bird lungs originally evolved in order to enable the ancestors of birds to cope with very low oxygen levels, which were prevalent between 175 and 275 million years ago (see here). The reader might be asking: why don’t mammals have lungs like this? That’s a very good question. The (scientifically falsifiable) prediction I would make is that mammals would incur a severe fitness cost if they did. It should be easy enough for scientists to test this prediction by manipulating the genes of developing mammals to give them avian lungs, and then seeing how this impacted on their fitness. I am highly skeptical of the Darwinist “explanation” that evolution just happened to find a better solution for birds than for mammals. To me, that account explains nothing at all. It’s what I’d call a real science stopper.

But what about that most comical of anatomical imperfections, the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, cited by Dr. Richard Dawkins as excellent evidence for Darwinian evolution? Now, if the laryngeal nerve were just involved in controlling the larynx, then Dawkins might have a good point. The laryngeal nerve comes down from the brain and loops around the arteries near the heart and then goes back up to the larynx. In the giraffe, this seems like particularly bad design. However, the laryngeal nerve actually has several branches all along its length that go to the heart, esophagus, trachea, and thyroid gland. Thus it is involved in a whole system of control of various related organs. It would be very unintelligent to have a single nerve, controlling only the larynx. It would be more intelligent to have it control a lot of related systems all along its length (see this article.) Hence the laryngeal nerve, far from being a problem for intelligent design, actually vindicates it.
Creationist Dr. Jonathan Sarfati makes the same point in a recent article entitled, Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve, and adds that its position may have something to do with the development of the animal as an embryo:

Dawkins considers only its main destination, the larynx. In reality, the nerve also has a role in supplying parts of the heart, windpipe muscles and mucous membranes, and the esophagus, which could explain its route.
Even apart from this function, there are features that are the result of embryonic development – not because of evolution, but because the embryo develops from a single cell in a certain order. For example, the embryo needs a functioning simple heart early on; this later descends to its position in the chest, dragging the nerve bundle with it.

This is a fruitful Intelligent Design hypothesis, and a falsifiable one. If it is wrong, we should know soon enough.
Finally, a recent article by Dr. Jerry Bergman, entitled Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve Is Not Evidence of Poor Design, in Acts & Facts 39 (8): 12-14, concludes:

The left recurrent laryngeal nerve is not poorly designed, but rather is clear evidence of intelligent design:

  • Much evidence exists that the present design results from developmental constraints.
  • There are indications that this design serves to fine-tune laryngeal functions.
  • The nerve serves to innervate other organs after it branches from the vagus on its way to the larynx.
  • The design provides backup innervation to the larynx in case another nerve is damaged.
  • No evidence exists that the design causes any disadvantage.

The arguments presented by evolutionists are both incorrect and have discouraged research into the specific reasons for the existing design.

What about the female human pelvis? We now know that Homo erectus females had large, wide pelvises in order to deliver large-brained babies, which meant that Homo erectus infants became independent far more quickly than modern human infants. However, the average brain size of Homo erectus was considerably smaller than that of Homo sapiens, and further evolutionary widening of the pelvis to accommodate larger-brained Homo sapiens infants may have severely hampered women’s mobility while walking. What happened instead was that Homo sapiens infants were born immature, which in turn meant that they required an extended period of parental care. Once again, we see trade-offs being made because of conflicting biological constraints. Blaming the Designer for this is like blaming Him for not being able to make a square circle. It’s simply childish.

There are parasites which are dedicated to attacking people: the malaria parasite, for instance. But what we continually need to remind ourselves is that we don’t know all the facts about the original condition of these seemingly malevolent organisms, as well as their subsequent development. Until we do, we are in no position to sit in judgment on the Designer.

For instance, according to a recent press release by the National Science Foundation, modern malaria parasites began to spread to various mammals, birds and reptiles about 16 million years ago. Malaria parasites may jump to new, unrelated hosts at any time, decoupling their evolution from that of their hosts. The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago – very close to the time when humans first appeared. However, according to Dr. Robert Ricklefs, one of the biologists who conducted the recent research into the origin of the malaria parasite, “Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history, becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations.”

An Alternative Intelligent Design Hypothesis?

In the post I quoted above from Dr. Liddle, she remarked:

…[I]f you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

So here’s my invitation to Dr. Liddle: if you really find the notion of a pure spirit philosophically incoherent, why not postulate a Jeffersonian Designer, who is subject to material as well as logical constraints? After all, materialistic Deism is a perfectly respectable worldview, with a long history. Look at the fossil record, examine the imperfections in living things, and tell me what you can deduce about the physical limitations of your Designer. The Intelligent Design movement is a very broad tent, and you’re more than welcome to conduct research along these lines. For the fact is that scientific arguments alone cannot rule out the existence of a Jeffersonian Designer. Only metaphysical arguments could do that. However, Intelligent Design proponents are not tied to any particular metaphysical view, as ID is a scientific program.

Over to you, Dr. Liddle.

Comments
While I agree with GP, I can say that positing that everything is at least potentially formalisable is a philosophical position. I believe that not all reality can be formalised.Eugene S
January 19, 2012
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Elizabeth: If I can give my personal idea: a) "natural" and "supernatural" are completely meaningless concepts. Worse, they are dangerous concepts. "Natural" presuppose a detaile philosophical definition of what nature is, and there are a lot of contrasting possibilities. That's why all the debate about methodological naturalism is simply confounding: it is only a way for debaters to assume their personal philosophy as the basis for science. Science is not abou "nature" (whatever it is). It is about reality. I am all for "methodological realism". Indeed, for simple realism. b) "Material" and "non material" are ambiguous too. We have no definite definition for matter, and usually those whoi use those terms include things that are not "matter", like enerjy, forces, and so on. So, unless we use "natter" for "something having mass", which would be very restrictive, "material" can only mean "what can be explained accordimg to current paradigms of physics". That is again a very dangerous concept, cutting out for instance, at least at present, dark energy (whatever it is) and conscious experiences (whatever they are). Again, realism and good science have to take those things into consideration, because they are real (or at least, the facts we refer to, conscious experiences and the observations that lead to the dark energy problem, are real). IOWs, realism is the only guiding principle of science: science is about how things are.gpuccio
January 19, 2012
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I am never sure what is meant by "supernatural", Eugene. What is your own definition? Or, if you don't use the word, what word do you use for "non-material" or "non-natural", and how do you define it?Elizabeth Liddle
January 19, 2012
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What is supernatural, Dr Rec? Your definition of science I already saw :) Who decides what can or cannot happen?Eugene S
January 19, 2012
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Nicely argued, Bruce, but I think flawed, nonetheless :)
Hi Elizabeth, I know you have a lot on your plate at the moment, what with the length of the OP and all, but I must point this out. Imagine for a moment that the folowing three propositions are true: 1. Organisms appear to be designed because they actually are designed, 2. Scientific inquiry can detect and confirm this, but 3. Science can go no further, ie., scientific methodology is unable to discover the nature of the designer(s) nor his, her, or their methods.
There is a subtle problem with your three conditions, in that the assume different vantage points. Let me put two alternative (and matching) sets of conditions: Set One: 1.1. Organisms actually were designed, in other words, "in fact" something external to organisms designed organisms. 1.2. It is possible to discover this fact using scientific methods. 1.3. It is not possible to discover the nature or methods of the designer. Set Two: 2.1. Organisms appear to be designed. 2.2. Scientific inquiry suggests that an external designer is the only plausible explanation 2.3. Scientists remain frustrated in all in their efforts discover the nature of the designer(s) nor his, her, or their methods. The difference between these sets are that the first set are statements from the point of view of an "authorial eye" as it were. We can suppose that these things are true. However, they invite the question: if these things are true (namely that organisms were externally designed, that this fact is discoverable, but the designer is undiscoverable), what would we see from our limited vantage point? The second set, on the other hand, are statements from our own point of view, and raise the question: if these are what we observe (appearance of design; definitive evidence that design is the only explanation; no further progress in identifying the nature of the designer), what can we conclude And I think we have to do one thought experiment or the other (or both, serially) - mixing the two kinds of hypothetical can only confuse us. So my response to the first is: if these facts are true, then they are not verifiable by us. All we are capable of doing is trying to falsify them (this is the real point of Popper's criterion). There is nothing we can discover that could justify us in saying: now we know these facts are true, so there is no point in continuing our falsification attempts. In other words there is nothing in science that could justify the rejection of methodological naturalism. However, we could still reject it (i.e. decide to ceases falsification attempts) on religious grounds: we could say "clearly we are up a gum tree here; let's call it God and go for a beer". And that was the point I was trying to make Turning to the second: these are your conditions as seen from our own vantage point, i.e. a position of ignorance as to the "true facts" and reliance solely on observation. In other words, these are what we might see if Set One was true; but, equally, they are what we might see if 1.3 were false. Therefore we cannot, on the basis of our observations, rule out the possibility that 1.3 is false. In other words, having concluded, emphatically, that something had an external designer, the only grounds for concluding that that designer is undiscoverable have to be religious i.e. the conviction that the designer was non-material, because, again, this hypothesis is only falsifiable, it is not verifiable. Therefore, it is on straightforward Popperian grounds that I say that rejection of methodological naturalism is religious; in other words that the only grounds for ceasing enquiry into the nature of an external designer can be the belief that that designer is non-material, which is what I am calling "religious" belief. There are no scientific grounds for ceasing that enquiry. Well, apart from funding I guess, but we can probably all agree that we are not talking about pragmatics here :)
In that case, given that science above all else is supposed to be a disinterested search for truth, shouldn’t science affirm that living organisms have in fact been designed, and then “stop”? Why wouldn’t this be the appropriate stance for science to take?
Well, firstly because of what I have said above. The only reason for stopping could be the belief that the designer is non-material, in other words, religious belief. I don't think science should stop because of religion. But secondly (and not the topic of this thread, but I'll mention it anyway) it would be an insupportable conclusion in the absence of any information about the designer - this is the point those on "our" side keep making to no avail: that a "design inference" simply cannot be made in the absence of any information about the design and implementation process, and if we have those, then we are talking about material forces. But let's leave Stonehenge and Black Monoliths for another thread!)
In other words, it seems to me that your insistence that science should follow MN because “Methodological materialism is not stopping…” implicitly places a higher priority on the methodology than it does on discovering the truth, whatever that truth may be.
No, and I think I have shown why not. The answer lies (for once) in principle of falsification. Non-material explanations can only (by definition) be falsified, not verified. Therefore, to arbitrarily cease the falsfication process is to cease the search for truth that despite lack of verification, we are already in possession of it. Now, that is perfectly valid as a religious position (and, let me make it clear, by saying that rejection of methodological naturalism is religious, I wasn't knocking religion, I was simply stating what I think is a logical corollary), but accepting a claim as a truth without verification is not "discovering" the truth; it is believing it through faith. Which is fine, but it is also religious! Do you see what I mean? In short, the scientific and religious positions are not symmetrical (contra those who insist that "Darwinism" is a religion). Nor are they contradictory. As a scientist I hold to methodological naturalism (by definition, I would argue) because non-material causes are unfalsifiable. As a person, I can believe, by faith, that some phenomena have non-material causes (the Resurrection, for instance). But qua scientist, I cannot regard them as verified truths. I can, at best, give the provisional answer that they remain "unfalsified". There's a third way, of course, which is McCabe's: to regard "God" as the answer to the question "why is there anything, rather than nothing?" at which case the design inference becomes IMO, both irrelevant, and heretical! Because it supposes that there are two kinds of thing: designed; and non-designed. If God is the reason there is anything rather than nothing, then that is a false distinction, and there can be no feature of anything that indicates it is, as McCabe says "God-made" as opposed to not-God-made. So, as I said, I reject ID on theological as well as methodological grounds. Also on empirical grounds - I think things are intelligently designed, but that is because I think they emerge from an intelligent process. But that's for yet another thread!Elizabeth Liddle
January 19, 2012
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if an investigation into a putative non-material cause turns out to be fruitful, then the putative non-material cause is not, in fact, non-material.
I think the issue of where the cause comes from is perhaps secondary to its capacity for investigation. I think the emphasis should be on the "methodological", not on the "naturalism". An experiment is an attempt to create an instance of an assumed general phenomenon in a controlled environment. If one can do this, one can publish materials and methods and offer the opportunity for others to create their own instance of the phenomenon. Everything that we can detect has somehow started a chain of cause-and-effect within the material world, whatever its origin (and the quite mysterious coupling that one must assume if there is anything outside the material). If the phenomenon involved a ghost entering the lab and switching all the test tubes round while you weren't looking, you would not have a repeatable phenomenon. But the same would apply if it was a rogue lab assistant. Of course, you weren't investigating ghosts, but if you were, you would be looking for some kind of regularity and repeatability in their interaction with the experiment. If ghosts never act the same way twice, and you can never actually detect them directly, methodological investigation is hampered.Chas D
January 19, 2012
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I am not saying (and did not say) that it is religious to entertain the possibility that a phenomenon might have a non-material cause. I said it was religous to reject methodological naturalism. Not naturalism. Methodological naturalism. In other words, to reject the method of science that is grounded on the assumption (not the conclusion, nor even necessarily the belief) that material (aka physical) effects have material (aka physical) causes is to stop investigating when one would otherwise go on. That is what I am saying is religious. Why else would one so tie one's hands?Elizabeth Liddle
January 19, 2012
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Ladies, you can read it here courtesy of tjguy. You are the way you are because you are being punished. By God. And tjguy thinks this is science?Grunty
January 19, 2012
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my first post here, and sorry English isn't my first language. for me: matter = particles nature = matter + energy + laws(or information) some people define "matter"="being" as in philosophy, but i disagree with them. I believe MN has it's limitation, just as Newtonian Physics has limitation, so we need relative theory etc. may be MN can partly explain some micro evolution phenomena, but t can't explain every thing in biology. ID is more broader than MN. so for me ID is better science.peter gutman
January 18, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, I know you have a lot on your plate at the moment, what with the length of the OP and all, but I must point this out. Imagine for a moment that the folowing three propositions are true: 1. Organisms appear to be designed because they actually are designed, 2. Scientific inquiry can detect and confirm this, but 3. Science can go no further, ie., scientific methodology is unable to discover the nature of the designer(s) nor his, her, or their methods. In that case, given that science above all else is supposed to be a disinterested search for truth, shouldn't science affirm that living organisms have in fact been designed, and then "stop"? Why wouldn't this be the appropriate stance for science to take? In other words, it seems to me that your insistence that science should follow MN because "Methodological materialism is not stopping…" implicitly places a higher priority on the methodology than it does on discovering the truth, whatever that truth may be.Bruce David
January 18, 2012
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I don't recall a forensic scientist invoking angels or demons in a case. I think forensic science operates quite within the bounds of mn. Are you arguing the act of a human agent is SUPERnatural?DrREC
January 18, 2012
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" it may very well be that the original design of the pelvis was changed when God judged Adam and Eve for their sin. God’s original world was perfect, but was cursed along with God’s judgment on Adam." And you wonder why folks who might not share this exact religious belief get nervous when "intelligent design" gets introduced into the classroom as a SCIENCE.DrREC
January 18, 2012
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Dr. Matzke, You are not going to try and discredit everything that is written in the Acts & Facts publication simply because it is a creationist publication are you? It doesn't work like that. Show us where this particular article is wrong - don't just try and totally discredit it because it is a creationist publication. That is foolish and unscholarly. Besides, when it comes the the human pelvis, it may very well be that the original design of the pelvis was changed when God judged Adam and Eve for their sin. God's original world was perfect, but was cursed along with God's judgment on Adam. Plus, thanks to mutations and devolution(evolution in the wrong direction), many design issues probably have creeped into the world of living creatures. "The Designer didn’t have to square a circle, he just had to put the freakin’ birth canal somewhere other than right through a tiny hole in the pelvis. Why put it through the skeleton at all? A portal a few inches higher up in the lower belly would do nicely. No tearing and incontinence, no jamming the baby’s head through the pelvis, no problem with breach births, etc. etc." OK, Dr. Matzke, why don't you go ahead and design a human the way you are saying and see how well it goes for you, if you think it is so easy. Saying it is possible and showing us it is possible is a very different thing. We don't know but perhaps there is very good reason for the current design. However, my take on the issue is more along the lines of a punishment for sin, like Genesis says.tjguy
January 18, 2012
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Forensic scientists don't chafe at the limits imposed by methodological naturalism. Can you imagine a forensic scientist writing this, a la Dembski?
So long as methodological naturalism sets the ground rules for how the game of science is to be played, forensic science has no chance of success.
champignon
January 18, 2012
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Seems a bit underhanded that ID theorists who determine design from chance based on effects intelligent agents leave behind are derided for being religious (even if they are agnostic), while forensic scientists (who may be openly religious) determine design from chance based on the effects intelligent agents leave behind all the time and their religious views never become an issue.Bantay
January 18, 2012
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Good question. vjtorley seems to say both that (a) humans evolved from Homo erectus, and this explains why our babies just barely fit through the female birth canal, and (b) that the YEC publication Acts & Facts is a reliable resource. As for this:
What about the female human pelvis? We now know that Homo erectus females had large, wide pelvises in order to deliver large-brained babies, which meant that Homo erectus infants became independent far more quickly than modern human infants. However, the average brain size of Homo erectus was considerably smaller than that of Homo sapiens, and further evolutionary widening of the pelvis to accommodate larger-brained Homo sapiens infants may have severely hampered women’s mobility while walking. What happened instead was that Homo sapiens infants were born immature, which in turn meant that they required an extended period of parental care. Once again, we see trade-offs being made because of conflicting biological constraints. Blaming the Designer for this is like blaming Him for not being able to make a square circle. It’s simply childish.
Wait, what? The Designer didn't have to square a circle, he just had to put the freakin' birth canal somewhere other than right through a tiny hole in the pelvis. Why put it through the skeleton at all? A portal a few inches higher up in the lower belly would do nicely. No tearing and incontinence, no jamming the baby's head through the pelvis, no problem with breach births, etc. etc.NickMatzke_UD
January 18, 2012
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Dr Liddle: Yes, rejection of “MN” is religious, for a very simple reason. It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause.
This is ridiculous. I investigate my own states of consciousness without assuming it is material or non-material. Religion has nothing to do with it. Moreover, it's difficult to nail down what "material" is in the first place. Science deals with regularities. Whether they are "material" or "non-material" (whatever that means) is beside the question. Do electrons and photons have "materiality?" I don't know, but the question is irrelevant. What matters is their regularities that we can assess.mike1962
January 18, 2012
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Well, let me rephrase: if an investigation into a putative non-material cause turns out to be fruitful, then the putative non-material cause is not, in fact, non-material.
But again, this will create confusion with theists who won't understand why you keep claiming that their God, if he exists at all, must be material.champignon
January 18, 2012
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Well, let me rephrase: if an investigation into a putative non-material cause turns out to be fruitful, then the putative non-material cause is not, in fact, non-material. This is true in a very straightforward way (see my quote from McCabe): if something has an effect on a material object, then it is a force. This is true whether it's my fingers landing on the keys, or a rain drop landing on the earth. So to me "non-material force" (or, if you prefer, "non-physical force") is an oxymoron. So I think there are only two coherent ways of thinking about "non-material" causes. One is to say they can't exist; the other is to take the McCabe line and say that all forces in the universe are the actions of a non-material agent.Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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Of note:
Jake: Math prodigy proud of his autism - 60 Minutes - CBS News - video http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7395214n&tag=re1.channel Quote of note at the 12:00 minute mark of the video; 'The whole randomness thing, that's like completely against all of physics' Jake Barnett - Math Prodigy
bornagain77
January 18, 2012
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Fair comment, and it seems it already has :) Well, if all we differ in is the words, I am happy to change the words. Although I do think that words can be traps, and I think that is partly what McCabe was getting at. McCabe again: "It is not possible that God and universe should add up to make two."Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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This was a reply to Elizabeth at 8.1.champignon
January 18, 2012
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I accidentally posted my reply at comment 12 instead of here.champignon
January 18, 2012
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In this context, most people use the word synonymously with 'physical', which would include matter and energy but exclude gods, angels, demons, souls, etc. I think you and I take the same prescriptive stance: anything that can be investigated using the methods of science is fair game for science. Where we differ is in the description of this stance. I would say that science is not limited to investigating material (or physical) causes, and therefore MN is unnecessarily strict. It is, however, limited to investigating testable and falsifiable hypotheses, so "the designer did it that way" doesn't qualify. You would say that science is limited to investigating material causes, but then you define 'material' in a way that includes anything that behaves in a testable, predictable fashion -- even gods. But if you claim that God is material, most theists will think you simply need to bone up on your theology. The conversation will get derailed at the start.champignon
January 18, 2012
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Excuse double post! I tried to retrieve a non-proof-read one. My copy typing isn't what it was!Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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I agree absolutely, Scott (I think we've agreed on this before!) I don't see a conflict between MN and ID either, both on methodological grounds (I don't see why an intelligent agent can't be investigated using MN) and on theological grounds, oddly enough. The one theological idea that makes sense to me is that God is neither outside nor inside the universe but "the ground of its being". If so, no scientific method is going to be able to detect God, because scientific methods involve detecting the difference between what happens when something is present and when it is absent. If God is present in every action of the universe, then no amount of scientific methodology, natural or otherwise (if there is an otherwise, which I dispute) is going to reveal God. Either God is right there in front of you, around you, and within you, staring you in the face, as it were, or s/he is not (IMO) much of a god. As my favorite theologian, Herbert McCabe says:
Again, it is clear that God cannot interfere in the universe, not because he has not the power, but because, so to speak, he has too much; to interfere you have to be an alternative to, or alongside, what you are interfering with. If god is the cause of everything, there is nothing that he is alongside. Obviously God makes no difference ot the universe; I mean by this that we do not appeal specifically to God to explain why the universe is this way rather than that, for this we need only appeal to explanations within the universe. For this reason there can, it seems to me,be no feature of the universe which indicates it is God-made. What God accounts for is that the univese is there instead of nothing.
(God Matters, p 6)Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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I agree absolutely, Scott (I think we've agreed on this before!) I don't see a conflict between MN and ID either, both on methodological grounds (I don't see why an intelligent agent can't be investigated using MN) and on theological grounds, oddly enough. The one theological idea that makes sense to me is that God is neither outside nor inside the universe but "the ground of its being". If so, no scientific method is going to be able to detect God, because scientific methods involve detecting the difference between what happens when something is present and when it is absent. If God is present in every action of the universe, then no amount of scientific methodology, natural or otherwise (if there is an otherwise, which I dispute) is going to reveal God. Either God is right there in front of you, around you, and within you, staring you in the face, as it were, or s/he is not (IMO) much of a god. As my favorite theologian, Herbert McCabe says:
Again, it is clear that God cannot interfere in the universe, not because he has not the power, but because, so to speak, he has too much; to interfere you have to be an alternative to, or alongside, what you are interfering with. If god is the cause of everything, there is nothing that he is alongside. Obviously God makes no difference ot the universe; I mean by this that we do not apeal specifically to God to explain why the unviverse is this way rather than that, for this we need only appeal to explanations within the universe. For this reason there can, it seems to me,be no feature of the universe whichindicates it is god-mad. WhatGod accounts for is theat the univese is there instead of nothing.
(God Matters, p 6)Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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But even if the Designer of Nature were a material cause, the material processes underlying His acts of design would still elude scientific investigation, simply because He is outside Nature, which means that the workings of His body will forever elude us.
I agree with this, but for religious reasons. This seems like a step away from establishing ID as science and separating it from religion. Setting aside my religious beliefs to look only at what may be examined scientifically, must the designer of life be the designer of nature? On what basis could we conclude that a designer of nature and of life would be unable to expose the reality outside of it to those inside of it, even partially? I don't see the conflict between MN and ID. The subjects of ID are one and all material. Intelligence is not supernatural. And to say that anything is beyond the reach of scientific observation is religious, not scientific. Science knows (or should) that it may observe tomorrow what it can't observe today. And if it completely ignores what it can't observe today, what's wrong with that? What is the alternative. None of this conflicts with the determination that an observable, material thing is the probable result of design, even of an unknown designer. Intelligence isn't supernatural, and logic dictates that we cannot call the unknown "immaterial."ScottAndrews2
January 18, 2012
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OK, it seems to me we are seriously talking past each other here. I will postpone my response to the OP until there has been some discussion about these key terms, namely: Material (and non-material) Natural (and supernatural) And can I ask (Gregory, I'm looking at you) that rather than psycholanalyse my use of language, and critique my intellectural shortcomings, we simply (each of us) attempt to define our own usage of these terms? Then perhaps we can make some progress :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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In that case, what do people mean by "material"? I certainly don't think that everything in the universe is "matter", and I don't think people use the word that way either (although I did once come across someone who claimed that "materialists didn't believe in energy"). Seriously - what do you mean by the word? What other coherent meaning is there?Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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