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Mind and emergentism

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Evolutionists believe that mind can rise from matter. From atoms configured into molecules, configured into cells, configured into tissues, configured into a brain, mind can rise. Their molecules-to-man evolution story is in fact the narrative of the emergency of mind from matter. Here, in a sense, evolutionism and artificial intelligence (AI) meet in developing a fallacious more-from-less scenario.

For example, an evolutionist says:

I think that “larger objects” have properties not possessed by their parts. These properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear.

According to this evolutionist naturalistic conception, a “larger object” is simply a specific configuration of atoms, enough large to develop the emergent properties. The belief that properties as those listed in the quote can spontaneously emerge from large configurations of atoms is called “emergentism”. Practically we could consider “emergentism” as an alias of “evolutionism”.

The “larger object” can be also the brain, filled with neural networks, where processes and states happen as effects of algorithms. So the “emergentism” expressed above in terms of hardware – so to speak – can also be expressed in terms of software. It is exactly what, for example, Roger Penrose does:

In my opinion, it is conceivable that in an algorithm there is a threshold of complication beyond which the algorithm shows mental qualities. [The Emperor’s New Mind, chap.1]

Let’s see, in simplest terms, why mind is neither a configuration of atoms, nor a process or algorithm in the organism. It is common experience that mind recognizes “purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear”. What recognizes configurations, states, processes is not one of such configurations, states, processes. The “recognizer” cannot emerge from what it recognizes. The binary relation between recognizer and recognized cannot be reduced to a single point. Example: what sees is different from what is seen; the eye cannot see itself. Analogously mind, who recognizes what happens in the brain, is different from what happens. Mind cannot arise, as emergent property, from the neural processes it sees. This a matter of principle.

Against this reasoning, emergentism doesn’t help evolutionists. It is useless to say that “systems may have properties not possessed by their parts”. Depending from the specific system and its parts, a system can have, yes, certain additional properties, but not whatsoever properties. Natural example: while a single water molecule doesn’t form ice crystals, a set of water molecules shows the emergent property of forming ice crystals, at a certain temperature. But no set of water molecules shows, say, the emergent property of self-inflaming. The cause of all that is the physical laws. Artificial example: an airplane has the property of flying, which its parts have not, but an airplane cannot have the property, say, of creating moral laws from thin air. What allows an airplane to fly is its intelligent design (ID). It is ID the cause adding to the parts of the airplane the capacity to fly by mean of an apt assembly (beyond obviously having designed the parts themselves).

So the controversy is not if systems can have properties not possessed by their parts. They can have some. In general, the controversy is about what properties a specific system and parts can develop and what causes the arise of such properties. Specifically, I claim that human mind is not a property emerging from biological or artificial hardware configurations or software processes when their complication become large enough. And I claim that, much less, mind can be the result of an unguided material process, as cause. It is, yes, possible to fabricate artificial neural networks (“artificial brains”) but it is impossible to artificially create a human mind from chemicals in the lab. Mind is not a mere by-product of matter.

Thus, in the quote cited at the beginning, the problem is not the first statement “larger objects have properties not possessed by their parts”, rather the second one: “these properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. If the “larger object” is the brain, or even an entire organism, its emergent properties do not include “the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. Mind doesn’t arise bottom-up. Mind overarches body, brain and matter.

Analogously, to say that mind is a property of the brain, is just defective. It would change nothing to say that mind is a property of the whole organism. In any case mind is not simply a property or attribute of large systems. Because a property of a thing cannot be the recognizer of the thing and its properties. Example, a banana has the property of being yellow. The property of being yellow cannot recognize the banana and its properties.

As always the problem is a priori materialism, which flattens any hierarchy. Between mind and matter there is an ontological hierarchy. Every man daily experiments this hierarchy, by using his mind to dominate matter. Unfortunately evolutionists forget this direct scientific experience to believe a fully unsubstantiated and biased faith, which materialism is.

Comments
Well, what do you mean by "really" an X acting on X? Sure, X changes as a result of the effect of the loop, but does that make X ~X? If something acts on something else, it changes. We do not necessarily say it becomes something else. If I act on you, you change. That does not mean I did not act on you. Or does it? AFter all the niwrad of a few minutes ago had had some additions and subtractions from the one reading this post now. But we still regard you as retaining the same identity. Similarly with my computer variable. Let's say X is a matrix full of data. And let's say my looped statement is: X(1,1)=X. Sure, my X is being constantly changed. Its first element now consists of an iteratively updated copy of itself. The rest of the matrix remains unchanged. In what sense has X not acted on itself? It has changed as a result, but it is still X in most attributes. This is actually completely on point, because it speaks to the nature of a persisting identity. You probably contain not a single atom that was present when you were born, or even when you were a young adult (unless you are still a young adult!) Yet you (and I) would readily agree that you are the same person. Just as my cat, ditto, is the same cat (I bring up the cat, just so that we don't get bogged down in mind-stuff at this point). Or a river is the same river. In other words, when asserting that X cannot act on X, you need to make sure just how you are defining X, and under what circumstances X ceases to be X. Because if X is still X if some pattern is maintained, even if peripherals are changed, then X can certainly act on X, and indeed act to change X. And that, I suggest, is the clue to both consciousness and free will.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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@31 Elizabeth B Liddle
But I completely disagree with you that consciousness is not an element of natural science. It's a very important element of my own field...
As a theoretical physicist I may be biased a bit for not seeing psychiatry and psychology as natural sciences but as proto-sciences, where spirit entities (such as consciousness) mingle with empirically contentful scientific concepts and methods. Ancient physics, chemistry and astronomy used to have similar character before maturing into genuine natural sciences over the last few centuries. Regarding consciousness, there is nothing natural science can say beyond what can be stated in algorithmic language without invoking empirically inaccessible entities (spirits or consciousness). Note that this is epistemological, not ontological statement i.e. consciousness certainly exists, but that element doesn't do anything at all within the formal (algorithmic) framework of the present natural science. Regarding the "algorithmic framework" term, a natural science requires three basic components: (M) Model space (postulates plus formalism/algorithms; this is a generator of statements by the science from postulates using rules of logic) (E) Empirical facts (direct or instrument observations) (OP) Operational rules (algorithms) which map between elements and outputs of (M) and elements of (E). Hence, what I am saying is that consciousness is not a part of (M) i.e. there is no formal C element of (M) that generates anything which can be mapped via (OP) to/from some empirical facts from (E). A mere sound of voice saying "I am conscious now" can be produced and modeled within (M) purely via interplay of matter-energy laws without invoking mysterious C element of (M). The C element is thus algorithmically ineffective, it doesn't produce anything (other than in poetic or informal sense, as a personal heuristics). Since consciousness (e.g. qualia) is part of (E), this means that model space (M) of present natural science is incomplete.nightlight
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle When you, in an imperative computer language, write the instruction: X = X*X the computer takes the old value of X, call it X1, which it had in memory before executing the instruction and computes a new value, call it X2, which is equal to X2 = X1*X1, then after it stores the new value X2 in memory. E.g. if X1 was 3, X2 now, after the instruction, is 9. Therefore the X = X*X instruction is only apparently self-referential. Nowhere there is really a X acting on X.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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Actually I thought I qualified that statement - I said that some action-selection processes are "automatic" and do not require consciousness. I would certainly agree with you that we can get a long way with AI without worrying about consciousness. But I completely disagree with you that consciousness is not an element of natural science. It's a very important element of my own field. And what I would say is that human beings have a very highly developed system by which events that require something more than an automated response initiate processes that do involve consciousness, and that it is this that gives us our remarkable flexibility in action, and capacity to come up with novel solutions, as well as prioritize tasks - what are sometimes called "executive functions".Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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@20 Elizabeth B. Liddle
I think that the organism has to be conscious in order to exercise its power to choose its actions. That's not because the "consciousness" is "causing" the actions, but because choosing is a conscious act.
Have you played a chess against a chess program? It chooses its moves just as chess player does, by looking ahead within the internal model of the game where it plays out moves and their responses, then evaluates the final positions and decides, based some utility (reward, happiness) function, which available move yields maximum reward. Depending on play mode settings, it can use random 'noise' in the decision so that it can make different, unpredictable choices from the same position (i.e. variety may be part of its happiness evaluation). Some programs can also 'trash talk' during the game, teasing the opponent, as club players often do in friendly matches. Consciousness is not an element of natural science i.e. the pronouncement "choosing is a conscious act" is as 'scientific' as declaring "roses are pretty" or "Big Mac is tasty"... There is nothing in natural science that can specify that such and such arrangement of matter and energy has 'consciousness' associated with it, whether that arrangement is in silicon chips or in neurons. Present natural science is plainly incomplete regarding this question, as it is regarding many others, such as origin of life or origin of evolutionary novelty (micro or macro). For example, neo-Darwinian "random mutation" as the source of evolutionary novelty is too vague and slippery proposition to be falsifiable. Namely, all biological examples and experiments neo-Darwinians point at as the "proof" have close analogues in other realms where evolution is observed, such the evolution of sciences and technologies, in which the sources of novelty are intelligent agents. In fact in all domains where the source of evolutionary novelty is well understood, the generator of the innovation is always an intelligent agent i.e. innovations are computed by some goal directed (anticipatory, teleological) algorithms a la decisions of that chess playing program, not by primitive and ineffective "random", aimless picks in some event space of all possibilities.nightlight
September 19, 2013
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Well I think you have to explain more clearly what you mean by "X acts on X" Or that "X cannot act on X". I can easily write a loop with X=X*X on every iteration.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle Sorry if I insist, but it is a key point. True real crude self-reference "X acts on X" exists nowhere. Not in Gödel, not in logical systems, not in computer programming, not in all reality. Only in spoken languages there is apparent self-reference, because natural languages are defective and not mathematical. I understand that people, accustomed to use natural languages, have problems to grasp such point. If evolutionists appreciated that self-organization is apparent, they would put half evolutionism into the dustbin. Moreover, if they grasped the principle that more doesn't come from less they would put also the remaining half.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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Well, I think there is a problem with your premise. Essentially it's what Godel addressed. You cannot exclude self-reference from any logical system. It will always return to bite you, as it were :) Less loftily, I think it is really important to distinguish between proximal and distal causes, of only because once we get to remote distal causes, we are not dealing with a long chain but an impossibly complex network. It's like asking "what caused this hurricane" and expecting to drill back down to that butterfly in Peking without which it wouldn't have happened. But then nor would it have happened without a great many other things as well. That doesn't mean we can't produce a causal account of hurricanes, though, and we can describe them in terms of reentrant systems. I'm suggesting just the same is true of the relationship between mind and brain - or, between mind and organisms.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle I wrote this piece to discriminate between mind and body, cause and effects. If you conflate them, by speaking of the person as a whole, then of course you lose the differences, and our attempt to discriminate and understand fails at the outset. The same about the nihil agit se ipsum. It is a tool to discriminate causation. If you, again, conflate all things in larger sets, then you can say, yes, that "the person can see the person", but you lose the ability to see the entire causation chain in details. I know, the causation chain of sight is (bottom-up): objects (or body parts), eyes, brain, mind. If you consider all the actors, you see that the nihil agit se ipsum has no exception. In other words, this principle doesn't allow to enlarge the sets, as you do. The earth "sees" the moon, X sees Y. But if I enlarge both X and Y to the solar system (Z), then I could even say that the solar system "sees" the solar system, Z sees Z. This is an erroneous way to analyze things. You don't disagree with me (that wouldn't be fatal), unfortunately you disagree with principles.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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Lizzie, Kairosfocus is free-associating, as usual -- within the confines of his ultra-paranoid, culture-warrior fantasy it all makes sense.Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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Lizzie, I would say that not only are the "isms" not very helpful, but also the Big Words, like "mind, "matter," "property," and "cause," tend to be worse than useless -- at work in each of those Big Words is a very complicated conception -- a theory, in fact. We'll get ourselves into endless, frustrating loops if we don't take the time to examine each theory, one by one, and then put them back together. Philosophy is extremely difficult and time-consuming, if you want to do it well.Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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I am not trying to misrepresent you, KF. I am trying to understand what you are saying. However, your post at 17 makes no sense to me at all. Who on earth brought up Marxists?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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EL, why have you misrepresented me AGAIN? The reasoning is circular but much more than that it cuts its own throat through self contradiction as shown -- and as long since shown and long since repeatedly shown to you so you either know full well the problem or should know it. And at this stage your disagreement means zip. Show cogent cause or yield by default.KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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KF: certainly I retract the misrepresentation, KF. Clearly I misunderstood you. I thought you were echoing niwrad's point. If you were simply saying that the reasoning is circular, that's fine. Obviously I don't agree, but I now understand what you are saying.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Box: I don't myself find these isms very helpful. Oddly enough, I think they make what is simple (obvious, even) obscure - they just move the problem round the block a few times.
-How can a property have downward causal power? How can consciousness, as a property of a complex configuration the brain, overarch / alter /determine the very thing on which its existence depends without undermining its existence?
I don't even know what "downward causal power" means. We say something causes an event if it wouldn't have happened without that thing, or, possibly, a substitute thing. Most events have multiple causes, of course. But I don't think that it is sensible to talk of "consciousness" having "causal power". This is why I keep getting back to the organism as the agent. I think that the organism has to be conscious in order to exercise its power to choose its actions. That's not because the "consciousness" is "causing" the actions, but because choosing is a conscious act.
-How do chemicals, or collections of chemicals, and their properties control and steer themselves? How does emergentism the overview necessary and what is its residence?
Well, your question is answered in a fairly large body of physiological literature. I can't quite parse your second question, but I don't think consciousness has a "residence" if that's what you are asking. I think there are key organs that are essential to consciousness, just as the heart is essential to the circulatory system, but I don't think it resides there, anymore than the circulatory system "resides" in the heart.
-How does emergentism explain the ‘unity of experience’, what Niwrad calls the overarching quality of consciousness, from the diverse parts?
Well, I'm not sure "emergentism" "explains" anything. But I think that regarding the person having the experience as the whole organism, not some inner homunculus separate from the organism, provides a more sensible framework for an explanation. And I'd say that the whole person - the organisms - experiences consciousness as a unity because consciousness is essentially a serial process, as opposed to the parallel processes that contribute to our "unconscious" thoughts. By that I mean that we we only attend to one thing at a time, even though we can shift attention to any other thing at any time. I think of consciousness and attention rather like the light in the fridge - it only goes on when you open the door, but because you only ever need it when you open the door, effectively it is "on all the time". Vision works like this - we only actually get information from a tiny patch of the visual field (about 2 degrees of arc) at any one time. But because we can change our direction of gaze at any time to check something somewhere else, we are unaware of that limitation. We perceive the entire scene as a whole.. I think that goes for consciousness too. I am only conscious of a small number of things at a time - but I have a vast repertoire of things I can be conscious of, and so it appears to me that I am conscious of my whole life all the time. But I'm not. It's just that if I open a mental fridge door the light goes on.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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The only way to go for evolutionary materialists, like Liz, is good old eleminativism, championed by the likes of Dennett and Dawkins.Box
September 19, 2013
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EL: Why did you resort in no 5 to yet another strawman caricature of what I have said? Did you not notice that I never just say "self referential," but something far more stringent, self referentially INCOHERENT. I am in part implying that there is a lot of circularity in the reasoning [not merely reflexive feedback loops which are meat and potatoes to someone trained in instrumentation and control and electronics], but there is a much bigger factor at work, self refutation by self contradictions, as outlined just above. This is now beginning to look like willfully continued misrepresentations, which is a bad bad bad thing to do that has a short little three letter name starting with l. If you do not acknowledge and correct yourself promptly, this will justify the inference that the misrepresentation is deliberate and a part of the pattern of enabling behaviour we have had occasion to highlight in recent days. KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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F/N: Since this is the latest business as usual :let's not go there" distraction from enabling of slander and worse at TSZ, let me simply link and lay out a 101 on that self refutation of evolutionary materialism on the failed account for mind. Until we have good reason to see that evo mat is at least compatible with the credibility of mind even advocates of such must rely on, we can safely deem this ideology in a lab coat a non starter: _______ >> a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions. [[Emphases added. Also cf. Reppert's summary of Barefoot's argument here.]
i: The famous geneticist and evolutionary biologist (as well as Socialist) J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]
j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. m: Moreover, as Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin reminds us all in his infamous January 29, 1997 New York Review of Books article, "Billions and billions of demons," it is now notorious that:
. . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel [[materialistic scientists] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[And if you have been led to imagine that the immediately following words justify the above, kindly cf. the more complete clip and notes here.]
n: Such a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind and of concepts and reasoned out conclusions relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)>> ________ Watch as they predictably will try to avoid, dismiss or divert the matter. But, they need to tell us, why should we accept the deliverances of an overgrown monkey brain on matters of abstract reasoning, allegedly programmed by accumulated genetic accidents that conferred survival advantages. KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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Well, niwrad, I'm disagreeing with you. I don't think your "eyes" do the "seeing". I think the person does, and that person is the whole organism. Indeed, eyes alone don't see much at all - our eyes are a very small, although essential, part of our visual system. But the person can see the person. Without a mirror they don't get a very good view of their face (I can just see my nose right now), and you need a couple of mirrors to get a view of your own back, but you can certainly see yourself. Not only that, but a person can know things about themselves, as well as about other people and other things. There's only a problem with that if you reduce the person to thing separate from the organism. If you regard the person as the whole organism, then there is no contradiction.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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'ID may indeed be based on defending the obvious. But what is obvious ain’t necessarily so.' But as Damon Runyon put it: “The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's how the smart money bets.”Axel
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle You don't see yourself. Your eyes, a part of your body, see other different parts of your body. There isn't a X seeing X.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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'Indeed, I can see myself!' Are you saying you are nothing, Elizabeth? Don't put yourself down like that. Are you impugning our efforts??Axel
September 19, 2013
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Well, so you keep saying, niwrad. But saying something doesn't make it true! And, indeed, I can see myself.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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On "the obvious": I once went to a lecture where we were each given a sheet of paper, with a series of statements on it. We were asked to indicate whether we thought each statements was likely to be true or not. At the end, the lecturer asked us to raise our hands if we had ticked 80% or more of the statements as likely to be true. The vast majority raised their hands. He then told us that half of us had had one set of statements, and half the other. The statements in one were the opposite of the statements in the other. I remember two of them, roughly. They were: After natural disasters, social bonds are strengthened. After natural disasters, social bonds break down. It was obvious to many people for centuries that the earth was flat and that the sun rose in the east and set in the west. This is wrong. It was obvious to many people that two light beams approaching each other would meet at twice the speed of light. This is wrong. It was obvious to many people that a long tow rope is no stronger than a short one. But this is not always the case. ID may indeed be based on defending the obvious. But what is obvious ain't necessarily so.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle Nothing sees itself. Nihil agit se ipsum. There is always a seer and a seen, an agent and an object, a knower and a known.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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Well, niwrad, I'm suggesting that consciousness is a reflexive process - the process by which an organism - let's say a human being to keep Mung happy - sees itself. Just because some processes aren't reflexive doesn't mean that none are. And I think that reflexivity is the key to understanding how consciousness works.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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My summarization of Niwrad’s position, please correct me if I’m wrong:
Emergentism is the belief that mental properties can spontaneously emerge from large complex configurations of atoms. Niwrad’s counterarguments with regard to the mind as a property of matter: 1.Self-awareness. The “recognizer” cannot emerge from what it recognizes – neural processes. What sees is different from what is seen; the eye cannot see itself. 2.Out-of-bound properties. Mental properties are out of reach for a material system. Depending from the specific system and its parts, a system can have, yes, certain additional properties, but not whatsoever properties. 3. Ontological hierarchy. Daily experiences inform us that mind overarches body, brain and matter. So mind doesn’t arise bottom-up.
The kind of emergentism we are discussing allows for mental properties to have real downward causal power (free will, puposes). My two cents: -How can a property have downward causal power? How can consciousness, as a property of a complex configuration the brain, overarch / alter /determine the very thing on which its existence depends without undermining its existence? -How do chemicals, or collections of chemicals, and their properties control and steer themselves? How does emergentism the overview necessary and what is its residence? -How does emergentism explain the ‘unity of experience’, what Niwrad calls the overarching quality of consciousness, from the diverse parts?Box
September 19, 2013
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kairosfocus: "sometimes the obvious needs to be explicitly said". In this "reign of the absurd" the obvious needs to be explicitly said h 24. The entire ID business is a defense of the obvious. Dear kairosfocus, we have work to do until we die.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle Only certain relations/properties on certain objects are reflexive. The relation between the recognizer and the recognized is not reflexive. The eye sees the object, but the object doesn't see the eye. Analogously, the mind "sees" the body, but the body doesn't see the mind.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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KF: you are assuming that what is "self-referential" must be incoherent. That is not a safe assumption. Feedback and reentrant loops are rife in the universe, and produce the most extraordinary phenomena. I suggest that human minds are such.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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