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Mind and emergentism

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Evolutionists believe that mind can rise from matter. From atoms configured into molecules, configured into cells, configured into tissues, configured into a brain, mind can rise. Their molecules-to-man evolution story is in fact the narrative of the emergency of mind from matter. Here, in a sense, evolutionism and artificial intelligence (AI) meet in developing a fallacious more-from-less scenario.

For example, an evolutionist says:

I think that “larger objects” have properties not possessed by their parts. These properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear.

According to this evolutionist naturalistic conception, a “larger object” is simply a specific configuration of atoms, enough large to develop the emergent properties. The belief that properties as those listed in the quote can spontaneously emerge from large configurations of atoms is called “emergentism”. Practically we could consider “emergentism” as an alias of “evolutionism”.

The “larger object” can be also the brain, filled with neural networks, where processes and states happen as effects of algorithms. So the “emergentism” expressed above in terms of hardware – so to speak – can also be expressed in terms of software. It is exactly what, for example, Roger Penrose does:

In my opinion, it is conceivable that in an algorithm there is a threshold of complication beyond which the algorithm shows mental qualities. [The Emperor’s New Mind, chap.1]

Let’s see, in simplest terms, why mind is neither a configuration of atoms, nor a process or algorithm in the organism. It is common experience that mind recognizes “purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear”. What recognizes configurations, states, processes is not one of such configurations, states, processes. The “recognizer” cannot emerge from what it recognizes. The binary relation between recognizer and recognized cannot be reduced to a single point. Example: what sees is different from what is seen; the eye cannot see itself. Analogously mind, who recognizes what happens in the brain, is different from what happens. Mind cannot arise, as emergent property, from the neural processes it sees. This a matter of principle.

Against this reasoning, emergentism doesn’t help evolutionists. It is useless to say that “systems may have properties not possessed by their parts”. Depending from the specific system and its parts, a system can have, yes, certain additional properties, but not whatsoever properties. Natural example: while a single water molecule doesn’t form ice crystals, a set of water molecules shows the emergent property of forming ice crystals, at a certain temperature. But no set of water molecules shows, say, the emergent property of self-inflaming. The cause of all that is the physical laws. Artificial example: an airplane has the property of flying, which its parts have not, but an airplane cannot have the property, say, of creating moral laws from thin air. What allows an airplane to fly is its intelligent design (ID). It is ID the cause adding to the parts of the airplane the capacity to fly by mean of an apt assembly (beyond obviously having designed the parts themselves).

So the controversy is not if systems can have properties not possessed by their parts. They can have some. In general, the controversy is about what properties a specific system and parts can develop and what causes the arise of such properties. Specifically, I claim that human mind is not a property emerging from biological or artificial hardware configurations or software processes when their complication become large enough. And I claim that, much less, mind can be the result of an unguided material process, as cause. It is, yes, possible to fabricate artificial neural networks (“artificial brains”) but it is impossible to artificially create a human mind from chemicals in the lab. Mind is not a mere by-product of matter.

Thus, in the quote cited at the beginning, the problem is not the first statement “larger objects have properties not possessed by their parts”, rather the second one: “these properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. If the “larger object” is the brain, or even an entire organism, its emergent properties do not include “the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. Mind doesn’t arise bottom-up. Mind overarches body, brain and matter.

Analogously, to say that mind is a property of the brain, is just defective. It would change nothing to say that mind is a property of the whole organism. In any case mind is not simply a property or attribute of large systems. Because a property of a thing cannot be the recognizer of the thing and its properties. Example, a banana has the property of being yellow. The property of being yellow cannot recognize the banana and its properties.

As always the problem is a priori materialism, which flattens any hierarchy. Between mind and matter there is an ontological hierarchy. Every man daily experiments this hierarchy, by using his mind to dominate matter. Unfortunately evolutionists forget this direct scientific experience to believe a fully unsubstantiated and biased faith, which materialism is.

Comments
The return of Alan Fox!
Give me one example of a slander (a link, not more verbiage) at TSZ.
Define "slander." When Elizabeth claimed that Stephen Meyer does not know the difference between a phylum (singular) and a phyla (plural) was that a slander?Mung
September 20, 2013
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@Lizzie - I want to qualify that I am going only to speak of human consciousness - that which can count, think abstract thoughts, communicate with language and plan for the future. I am not considering animal consciousness for the present. I think I understand the need for the term "emergent". It really seems to place a scientific ring to the observation consciousness exists. After all under the assumptions of materialism, there must be a cause for it. Of course the term itself: 1. Is a claim that is as practiced is non-falsifiable. We all know obviously just putting a bunch of human neurons together in a petri dish does not produce consciousness and that the only place that consciousness is observed is in a living human being birthed by a parent. Since I think this adequately falsifies the "emergent" hypothesis, but is not considered falsification of the "emergent" hypothesis by it's proponents, I assume there is no experiment that can adequately falsify the statement that consciousness emerges from a collection of neurons. 2. It can not be mathematically modeled. It is just a vague statement that has no associated quantities with it. 3. It does nothing at all to clarify how consciousness occurs. When I call consciousness an "emergent" property, all that is does is allow non-fitting analogies to be assigned to it. So one can now say something true like "a water molecule is not 'wet', but 'wetness' is an emergent property of 'water'". But this is a non-argument. What you have done is assign the same term 'emergent' to two obviously different processes. One can label 'consciousness' as emergent from neurons, and 'wetness' as emergent from water molecules, but since obviously they are not 'emergent' in anyway near the same manner ( i.e. simple 19th century physics can explain how the property of 'wetness' comes from a collection of water molecules ) it really just confuses the issue. I conclude therefore that the term 'emergent' is not meant to clarify, explain, or elucidate anything. It is meant to obfuscate the observed fact that current science really knows nothing about consciousness at all. A fact that makes it clear that anyone who really wants to make a good decision based on current understanding ( not based on what is assumed science will eventually discover ) must conclude that the best current explanation for consciousness lies in a world not limited to materialism.JDH
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle You consider the arrangement of pixels of Mona Lisa as the highest thing. Differently, I say that the highest thing is the principle of Mona Lisa, which is not simply the pixels arrangement, rather the synthetic idea/design in the mind of Leonardo. Analogously, the highest thing of man is not merely the arrangement of atoms of his body, rather his soul, which derives from an idea/design in the mind of God. For you, the soul, if any, is simply the arrangement of atoms of the body.niwrad
September 20, 2013
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niwrad
holistic materialism considers only the mere sum of the material parts, missing entirely the principle, which is what eminently matters.
No, it doesn't, and I find it odd that you could think so from what I have written. Parts do not simply "sum" to make a whole. If the Mona Lisa was reduced to a heap paint particles, you would not have the Mona Lisa, even though you had every single one of the constituent parts of the paint particles. The Mona Lisa is more than the sum of her parts because what is there, in addition, is not more material, but a pattern - the arrangement. Information, in fact. When we pulverise the Mona Lisa, even if we do so in a closed volume, and retain every last particle, we lose the Mona Lisa, because what has gone is the arrangement. What a living organism has, in addition to its parts, is the arrangement of those parts. As ID proponents correctly say, Information is neither matter nor energy. It is, if you like, immaterial. And if that makes me not-a-materialist fine. But I know of no so-called materialist who does not think that information exists. Indeed, it is implicit in the 2nd Law of thermodynamics that it does. So I'd be perfectly happy to describe consciousness as information, embodied in the physical arrangement of matter in a conscious person.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Bill Vallicella, aka Maverick Philosopher, on emergentism:
Here is a measly hunk of frangible bone and flesh out of which emerges a balloon so vast as to encompass the universe past, present, and future. And then one day the wretched little animal dies, the air supply is cut off, and the balloon collapses, its last thought being: what the hell was that all about?
Box
September 20, 2013
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Coomaraswamy:
The true principle of a thing is neither in one of its parts nor in the sum of its parts, rather where all its parts are embedded in a higher unity without composition.
Applied to human: the true principle of a human is neither in one of his body parts nor in the mere sum of the body parts, rather where all these parts (corporeal and psychical) are embedded in a higher unity without composition. This principle of unity of man is his soul (of which his mind is the more direct effect). So materialist emergentism is the negation of the principle of man. As rightly said Box, holistic materialism isn't different from simple materialism, because holistic materialism considers only the mere sum of the material parts, missing entirely the principle, which is what eminently matters.niwrad
September 20, 2013
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In re: Box @ 85:
The last couple of days we have been witnessing the birth of an entirely new philosophy: Holistic Materialism. Unlike old school Materialism – based on metaphysical naturalism – it does not have the reductionistic ambition to explain organisms by its parts.
I won't speak for Lizzie, but my vers1908, Merleau-Ponty died in 1961ion is not "entirely new" -- I've been alluding throughout to John Dewey (1859—1952), Maurice Merleau-Ponty (1908-1961), and Hans Jonas (1903-1993). All of them were indebted to previous emergentists such as Bergson and Whitehead, and from thence back to Hegel and Goethe. What I find striking is the conspicuous absence of holistic/emergentistic naturalism from these debates as they filter down to how 'science' is perceived in the culture in general. The mid-20th century saw a resurgence of reductionist materialism among molecular biologists and particle physicists, and although that's no longer the case among biologists, physicists, and philosophers any longer, the anti-reductionism of the past twenty or so years has largely remained confined to academics. There's a real failure of public intellectual leadership at work here. I like to think that my posts here help rectify that failure, but I'm probably deluding myself.
The holistic materialist regards the organism to be a whole and is unwilling to make even the most basic distinctions between parts of an organism. Take for instance consciousness. The holistic materialist does not regard consciousness to be separate from the limbs or any other part of the organism. The holistic materialist is able to circumvent difficult questions regarding consciousness which are impossible to answer by good old materialism.
I would say that there are often good reasons to distinguish between "parts of an organism"! Different organs, systems, molecules, etc. -- what I would deny is that anatomizing the organism, in a way that renders it appropriate for experimentation and manipulation, will tell us anything really interesting about what it is for something to be conscious. (Though a better understanding of neuroscience will almost certainly tell us something about how conscious mental states are implemented or realized as states of whole living animals.)
What does this all have to do with materialism and its reductionist ambition to divide an organism in ultimately fermions and bosons? What is the ontological status of the organism as a whole in Holistic Materialism? What power holds an organism together for exactly a lifetime? How does the mysterious whole accomplish this and where does the whole come from? How does Holistic Materialism accommodate downward causation? These are all good questions.
They might be good questions, or they might rest on category-mistakes -- just like Ryle's imagined visitor who observes the library, the dorms, the classrooms, the administration building, but then asks, "sure, but where is the university?" These questions seem to arise from treating "whole-ness" as itself some kind of weird entity that comes in from some other place or quasi-place and does something to the parts. But "whole-ness" is not some property or entity that has any ontological status distinct from the whole organism. For example, "the power that holds an organism together for its lifetime" is just the metabolic activity -- that's what ceases at death and decay sets in. And asking, "but where does the whole come from?" seems just mistaken to me -- the whole doesn't 'come from' anywhere. In talking about "whole organisms," there isn't any "whole" that exists in some weird quasi-place prior to the organism itself coming into existence.Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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In re: KF @ 69
I would point out to you on the Churchland case that she has highlighted something that is significant in its own right, the evo mat challenge to get from survival to truth and rationality. As have ever so many others. Yes, there have been debates and suggestions but the problem is real.
I never meant to suggest that I dismissed the problem as unreal -- it's that I'm not convinced that your way of conceptualizing the problem is the most helpful way of doing so. (For the curious, the quote from Churchland that Plantinga uses is from her 1987 "Epistemology in the Age of Neuroscience" (PDF).) The key to her approach -- to both of the Churchlands, actually -- is this: although brains do represent their environments (and themselves as parts of their environments), and so there is an intelligible way of talking about successful and unsuccessful representation, the brain does not store its representations in terms of sentence-like structures. There aren't any propositions at the neurological level. But, if truth-value is a property of propositions, then the adequacy of neurological representations isn't a matter of truth-value, but of some other property. Paul Churchland's answer to that question, as presented in his most recent Plato's Camera, is that neurological processes represent by mapping domains of the world -- hence he calls his theory Domain Portrayal Semantics. (I take issue with his use of "semantics" here, because I think Churchland conflates two different notions -- what his mentor Wilfrid Sellars called "signifying" and "picturing". I think that Churchland has given us a really nice account of picturing, far better than Sellars' own metaphors and analogies, but that it's still a distinct notion from semantics.) As a quasi-Hegelian, I think that the right way of thinking about normativity, rationality, and related issues is in terms of culture (what Hegel called "Geist" or "spirit"). And I certainly do not think that culture/spirit can be reduced to, or explained in terms of, the natural sciences -- let alone physics and chemistry! So for me, all the interesting problems turn on the emergence of culture from 'nature'.
The problem is that on the relevant evo mat — descriptive short hand — view, all there is to the brain, CNS and body as a whole is molecules in motion interacting in the end by physics and chemistry [hence millivolts and pulse rates] and attaining configs by alleged processes of blind chance and mechanical necessity that offer incremental survival advantages. No wonder truth and things that go with truth such as reason, take the hindmost.
Well, as my quasi-Hegelianism indicates, I don't take on that problem -- though of course a reductive materialist, such as Alex Rosenberg, would have to, and bite all the bullets along the way -- as indeed he does. More generally, I would say that although all of the constituents of an organism are its molecules, atoms, etc., there is no way to understand what it is for something to be an organism in terms of its physico-chemical constituents. (Likewise, there is no way to understand what it is for something to a rational agent in terms of its neurological processes.)
However, the real issue evolutionary materialists face is how to get to mental properties that accurately and intelligibly address and bridge the external world and the inner world of ideas. This, relative to a worldview that accepts only physical components and must therefore arrive at other things by composition of elementary material components and their interactions per the natural regularities and chance processes of our observed cosmos.
My main objection here is that this assumes that the basic epistemological problematic is best conceptualized in the terms inherited from Descartes -- the idea being that we need to somehow "bridge the external world and the inner world of ideas". If one is committed to asking Cartesian questions, then of course only Cartesian answers will make any sense. So in that (highly limited) sense I fully agree with you that trying to make Epicurean metaphysics (my preferred term for what you call "evo mat") solve the Cartesian problem will result in incoherence. But, that's not a problem I contend with, partly because I don't embrace Epicurean metaphysics ("chance" and "necessity"), and partly because I don't start off with the Cartesian epistemological problematic. Instead I start off with the mitigated Hegelianism of the American pragmatists, in which there is no need for a "bridge" between the external world and the inner world of ideas because the very appearance of a gap between them is itself an illusion that can be dispelled by transcendental argument. By this, what I have in mind is the following: our very ability to discriminate between different kinds of mental contents depends upon the contrast between our differently situated, embodied perspectives on the world and how the world is in itself. (Think of Kant's Second Analogy -- we are able to distinguish between the boat moving downstream, relative to us, and our own movement as we get closer or further from a stationary object.) Generalized, our ability to discriminate between our own mental contents presupposes, or only makes sense, if there are at least some humanly detectable, mind-independent objects in space and in time. The question for naturalists is, given this transcendental argument, which is logically independent of all metaphysics (including naturalism), how does naturalism account for it? How, in other words, is our transcendentally-secured cognition implemented (instantiated, realized)?Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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Box
The holistic materialist regards the organism to be a whole and is unwilling to make even the most basic distinctions between parts of an organism.
An interesting term, Box, thanks! I'll use that :) But you are not correct in saying that a "holistic materialist" (if you mean me) "is unwilling to make even the most basic distinctions between parts of an organism." I'd say that the "holistic materialist" model is one of nested systems, where there are very distinct differences between subsystems, but where those subsystems have very different properties from their parts, or the system of which they form a part. And that some properties - e.g. "consciousness" are properties only of higher systems (higher in the nesting) lower. But that does not mean that consciousness is not the result of those lower systems. It is. But it is the result of the system OF those lower systems, just as the properties of water is the result of the systems of hydrogen and oxygen, but does not share the properties of hydrogen and oxygen. And yes, you ask good questions :) I may write a post about this at TSZ, and link to your post here. You would be very welcome to come and discuss it further there.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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The last couple of days we have been witnessing the birth of an entirely new philosophy: Holistic Materialism. Unlike old school Materialism – based on metaphysical naturalism – it does not have the reductionistic ambition to explain organisms by its parts. The holistic materialist regards the organism to be a whole and is unwilling to make even the most basic distinctions between parts of an organism. Take for instance consciousness. The holistic materialist does not regard consciousness to be separate from the limbs or any other part of the organism. The holistic materialist is able to circumvent difficult questions regarding consciousness which are impossible to answer by good old materialism. What does this all have to do with materialism and its reductionist ambition to divide an organism in ultimately fermions and bosons? What is the ontological status of the organism as a whole in Holistic Materialism? What power holds an organism together for exactly a lifetime? How does the mysterious whole accomplish this and where does the whole come from? How does Holistic Materialism accommodate downward causation? These are all good questions. Below are quotes from an holistic materialist called Liz:
that person is the whole organism If you regard the person as the whole organism, then there is no contradiction. the person having the experience as the whole organism, not some inner homunculus separate from the organism, provides a more sensible framework for an explanation. I’d say that the whole person – the organisms – experiences consciousness as a unity I’m defining I as the whole system-organism. I think that what causes my actions is me – the whole human organism known as Lizzie. In other words, in my view, “I” am a whole organism, to be conscious of the world and to conceive and excecute a purpose – are properties of the whole organism.
Yes, this is – believe it or not – still in the realm of materialism.Box
September 20, 2013
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It strikes me that news ought to read the glossary. She may be surprised at the definition of "Darwinism" given there. She seems to think it means "atheism".Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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When you return to acting like one and in particular show signs of concern at the slander and hate we see freely spewing forth even now in TSZ and the like places.
I haven't read a thread at TSZ for weeks! If you have a problem with what's posted there then go there and say so! Since when have I become your strawman? You're casting aspersions on my motives, character and intelligence and asking me to deal with something you have a problem with that I have very little knowledge of, that I did not participate in, that I have no power to change. When Dr Dawkins published The God Delusion he received hideous, vitriolic hate mail from people who disagreed with him. Some of the opinions expressed by his detractors you might agree with. I'm not presuming so nor am I asking you to do anything about it. I only ascribe views to you based on what I've read that you've written and I don't expect you to deal with situations I find deplorable that you were not involved with. I'm not part of your war. You can attack me if you wish but it will serve to only make you look well off base.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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You have forfeited the presumption of sincerity, now you have to earn it back the hard way. A good place to begin would be to show a serious evaluation of what has been going on at TSZ and BSU, multiplied by some evidence of doing serious homework before trotting out all too familiar talking points and rhetorical tactics. For just one instance, you have been around UD for a long time, Explain to us how it is seemingly only today you have discovered the glossary in the resources tab — accessible from EVERY UD page — and why your immediate reaction was to comment to suggest that it is ill founded and untrustworthy without even providing an instance that substantiates so grave an insinuation. KF
If you want to address the situation at TSZ then why don't you join the conversation there? I don't participate there. I have read a few threads but I don't make a habit of it. If you've got a problem you deal with it. I bet a lot of participants on this forum have not thoroughly studied the glossary. That's just a guess on my part, it could be wrong. But I would never fault someone 'cause they hadn't read it. I never said it was ill founded! You're making that up. I just said why don't you and the other UD commenters make sure it's accurate, up-to-date and says what you want it to say and then you can direct people to it to make sure they understand the terms you use the way you intend them to be interpreted.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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@64 Elizabeth B Liddle
Well, you keep asserting this. It's what I am questioning. I think it has. I think the main problem in seeing it is conceptual. For example there is a huge and extremely well supported body of scientific evidence on the neural substrates of attention.
The problem is that A is "neural substrate (correlate) of" B, where A is an element of natural science (i.e. of its model space (M)) does not deductively make B element of (M). The best one can say then is to declare identity "B is A" as the new postulate of (M). The problems with adding that kind of "postulates" into the algorithmic (formal) component of science (M) are numerous. Here are few that stick out at a glance: a) the lack of quantitative precision of (A) - the neural correlates proposed are fuzzy, qualitative, long winded descriptions (stories) b) the massive amount of 'ad hoc' information that needs to be added as postulates in order to capture all the variations, nuances and details of A. c) the excessive specificity of (A), precluding model space (M) from answering the questions about element (B) of non-human systems, such as animals, or something not made of neurons such as androids or general computers (using some other kind of computational elements) d) Postulates violate Occam's razor in the sense that one can use correlates of the 'mind-stuff' so that mind-stuff language is merely a convenient shorthand for the long winded neural correlates without needing anything of the sort 'what is it like to be such arrangement of matter-energy' (the qualia, the actual experience). Nothing is gained by the model space (M) by adding a claim that correlates answer such question since the inner experience doesn't seem to do anything within (M) that correlates don't already do without it. One could as well dump the non-functional baggage (mind-stuff) from (M) and restrict (M) to zombie world since it makes no difference, correlates do it all anyway and B is redundant (yet our direct experience tells us that it is not, but (M) with its correlates postulates cannot explain why that is so). e) The approach is passing on or conflating epistemological solution (actually and open ended process of ever expanding list of neural correlates) to the ontological problem - what is the mind stuff and why is there at all and where exactly is that "there" (some humans, some races, all humans, some or all animals, androids,...)? In short, identity B=A approach via "neural correlates" is ugly, inefficient and ineffective as a fundamental postulate of natural science to explain consciousness (even if one can formulate the massive quantities of words and data needed to express it, which science isn't even close to completing). That approach is of the same kind of "solution" as the spirits of nature, one added for each phenomenon with elaborate, rich stories for each as to how it makes the phenomenon work. The "neural correlates" approach is actually quite analogous to the epicycles of the ancient and medieval astronomy, which, while usably practical (just as neural correlates may be e.g. for lie detectors or as diagnostic tool in psychiatry), were highly wasteful in postulates and assumptions, being overspecific with custom ad hoc cycles added for each object, thus unable to generalize, requiring new rules for any new object found. That all changed when the more pertinent inner pattern was discovered, first glimpsed at by Copernicus and Kepler, then finalized by Newton in his theory of gravity and the three laws of motion (that all can fit on half a page of text). In summary to this whole sub-thread, invoking "consciousness" into ID or other scientific debate does not bring the authority of natural science behind your argument, since present natural science does not have a model of 'consciousness' (mind stuff; cf. "hard problem of consciousness"). There are only various half baked informal ideas, such as neural correlates, floating around as rhetorical stop-gap measures, unusable as genuine postulates of natural science (as the problems (a)-(e) illustrate). I suppose 'scientific priesthoods' since ancient Egypt at least, always sought to create illusion for the outsiders to be in control of everything there is, having covered all the bases, including 'consciousness', life after death, creation, god,...nightlight
September 20, 2013
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Here's another kindred example of an innovative non-breakthrough in the sum total of human knowledge: Mother, seeing a broken lamp on the floor of the sitting room? Who did that? You must have done that, Ernest! Ernest: 'The lamp broke.' (Mind emerged) Though not verbatim, that was how a journalist described a government enquiry, which was evidently designed on no account to reveal the truth. Their favourite m.o. is, in any case, to claim that the failure was systemic, the corollary being that no individual or group can be blamed or held to account for it.Axel
September 20, 2013
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@62 Kantian Naturalist
I have a pretty hard time accepting that life is logically deducible from the known laws of matter-energy, in any sense of "logically deducible" I can recognize. So is biology a proto-science, in your sense?
I agree that life (origin or its evolution) are not deducible from the present laws of matter-energy. But that is not because there is some fundamental impossibility or prohibition of such explanation or algorithmic model. It is because our present formulation of these laws is incomplete and archaic, being based on mechanical machine-like Newtonian metaphors, limited to paper & pencil accessible algorithms (calculus, classical math). Seeds for the new kind of algorithmic or computational reformulation of natural laws have emerged in the last few decades under the labels 'digital mechanics' (Fredkin, Toffoli & MIT 'hackers'), cellular automata, neural networks, pregeometry. One of the most developed variants in this direction is Stephen Wolfram's "New Kind Science" (NKS). One can view NKS approach as translation of the natural science into the language of general algorithms which is a vastly larger and more powerful modeling space than that accessible to the algorithms running on the 'paper and pencil' technology on human brains (which is the presently dominant formulation of natural laws). From the birds eye view (Kurzweil's "singularity" perspective), through these developments humans are translating and passing on their knowledge to the next level of lifeforms which are algorithmically more powerful than ourselves and which will inherit our dominion some day. In the transitional period we will enjoy the fruits of the new insights as they trickle down, simplify and funnel into our more limited cognitive apparatus (human brains). An early hint as to what this kind of transition may look like was the controversial 1976 proof of the "4 color Theorem" which was done by computer and was largely opaque to the human referees, although human referees could verify the correctness of the algorithms which computed the proof (but humans couldn't carry out the computations done by the algorithms, hence the controversy). What Wolfram proposes and initiates in the NKS is the wholesale translation of the entire mathematics, natural science (physics, chemistry, biology) and other specialized disciplines (engineering, economy, sociology, psychology, medicine, etc) into the algorithmic form and then seek to advance these fields through developments of new algorithms to carry out the computations which are far beyond the reach of the present paper and pencil algorithmic technologies running on human brains. Although we currently use computers in all these fields, they are merely used to simulate our paper and pencil algorithms, such as solving differential equations and integrals (symbolically or numerically), editing documents in word processor and presenting them on the web, to lay out scientific papers via latex scripts, publish, archive and search scientific papers, etc. That is analogous to using computers to simulate abacus, then doing the arithmetic on this touch screen abacus image using the abacus algorithms. While the computer may improve over the physical abacus in the ease and speed of moving the pegs around, that is far from the most efficient way to do arithmetic on the computer. The NKS seeks to bypass the middlemen (the humanly computable algorithms, simulated touch screen abacus) and use the algorithmic methods directly, from the core, from the fundamental physics and up. There is a large chapter of the NKS book which explores the fundamental physics from this perspective. A brief glimpse into the approach is presented in this very readable article on pregeometry by Wolfram. In the NKS perspective, our physical universe, not only the behavior of matter-energy but also the basic properties of space and time, is computed by an underlying level reality (he calls it 'space-time network'; I prefer the term Planckian network introduced by some others, to distinguish additional features beyond physics). The upshot is that our physical universe is Matrix-like entity at the foundation (which is quite different from the psychedelic inspired Hollywood 'battery & vats' version). Our fundamental particles and quantum fields are merely patterns unfolding on this substratum, like little gliders in the Conway's Game of Life. What we presently call 'laws of physics' (and chemistry) is merely a tiny snippet of the regularities of these patterns that can be captured and expressed via our 'paper and pencil' class of algorithms. The content of the far more subtle, full underlying unfolding computed by this Planckian matrix includes not just the laws of physics, but also their fine tuning for life as well as the origin and evolution of life. None of these higher patterns are reducible to the laws of physics and chemistry (as presently understood) which capture only the limited features of the full computations. A longer discussion on this perspective (covering physics, fine tuning, origin and evolution of life, nature of consciousness) was sketched in a series of posts in an earlier UD thread (the hyperlinked full TOC by post topic is in the second half of this post). Regarding the relation to ID, while the Planckian Networks (PN) approach is also based on 'intelligent agency', the PN terminology and concepts are computational and algorithmic rather than conceived as actions of conscious intelligent agency (the latter are secondary properties of the computations by PN). Besides the differences in the basic concepts and terminology, the principal difference from ID is that the intelligence in PN works from inside out, from small to large, not from large to small, intervening from the heavens above as in ID. As result, the PN intelligence is not a part time intelligent intervention of ID (as advocated by DI) that sneaks in every now and then to fix the 'irreducibly complex' problems and fill the gaps that 'laws of nature' cannot cover. Instead, the intelligence of PN is the full time job, upholding and computing the universe in all its details, in all places and all times continuously. While one can look at the PN as ultimate front loading, the difference from deism is in the much greater economy of the asusmptions (postulates) in PN that avoids infinite chain of ever more intelligent first movers of the 'first movers'. What is front loaded (postulated) in PN are simple elemental, self-replicating computational elements with additive intelligence (mathematically modeled by neural networks), the rest is being computed (i.e. effectively deduced). Hence, in the PN the whole universe is not precomputed once in the beginning and let go (as conceived via Lapalace's all knowing demon), but rather it is being computed continuously in its increasing complexity and interconnectedness, as its intelligence, computational power and algorithmic sophistication increase. Life on Earth, humans and human societies are merely the latest computing technologies of the PN matrix in this corner of the universe as it is working itself out and harmonizing its activity at ever larger scales, with ever finer precision and greater efficiency.nightlight
September 20, 2013
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You're on a hiding to nothing, KF. Given the fated nature of colloquies with materialists, you should expect the worst in terms of irrationality, both intellectually and spiritually. If you sup with Old Nick, even as a foe, you need a long spoon It's only superficially about reasoned discourse. Pardon my presumption in saying this, KF. I mean well.Axel
September 20, 2013
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When you return to acting like one and in particular show signs of concern at the slander and hate we see freely spewing forth even now in TSZ and the like places.
"...slander and hate we see freely spewing forth..." my eye. Give me one example of a slander (a link, not more verbiage) at TSZ. I've asked you numerous times, KF, and you still have not been able to quote and link to any such "slander". You are impervious to reason, apparently more so then usual. *resumes lurk mode as considers it unlikely to see evidence of KF's "slander" claim this side of hell freezing over*Alan Fox
September 20, 2013
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And Jerad: Your turnabout projection attempt illustrates the problem. At no time have I projected any claims that design thinkers are anything but finite, fallible, morally struggling creatures. Similarly, I have identified specific sites, institutions and circles currently caught up in an ideological culture war game involving slander and censorship. I have and others have, provided substantial details. We have called for correction. We find here several people including yourself, coming here to project blame to the victim and distract from the grave wrongs. Such behaviour is aptly called enabling, and when it is sustained in the teeth of correction, it shows a tacit or premeditated good cop bad cop collusion. When you move beyond that all too familiar we are the angels you are the devils and loonies -- I here echo both Alinsky's and Dawkins' words -- pattern, then I will begin to take you seriously. You have forfeited the presumption of sincerity, now you have to earn it back the hard way. A good place to begin would be to show a serious evaluation of what has been going on at TSZ and BSU, multiplied by some evidence of doing serious homework before trotting out all too familiar talking points and rhetorical tactics. For just one instance, you have been around UD for a long time, Explain to us how it is seemingly only today you have discovered the glossary in the resources tab -- accessible from EVERY UD page -- and why your immediate reaction was to comment to suggest that it is ill founded and untrustworthy without even providing an instance that substantiates so grave an insinuation. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Well, another has occurred to me, any way: When I politely declined a second helping of apple-pie one day I remember my mother saying, 'Well you can't have any!' Post hoc or retro anticipatory logic would it be?Axel
September 20, 2013
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Jerad:
When are you going to treat me like an intelligent, independent, sincere individual?
When you return to acting like one and in particular show signs of concern at the slander and hate we see freely spewing forth even now in TSZ and the like places. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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KN: Let me clip the summary in the link from 58 on your view:
Although Liberal Naturalism incorporates a range of views, a central tenet is that there is more to what is natural, and more to how we can investigate it, than Scientific Naturalism could allow. The "serious metaphysics" which underpins orthodox naturalism operates by either 'eliminating or locating' normative features of the world, as Frank Jackson puts it.[1] Roughly speaking, once Scientific Naturalism has been 'liberalized' it can accommodate a broader range of entities and ways of understanding. Both Scientific and Liberal versions of naturalism reject supernatural entities (spirits, Cartesian minds) and supernatural faculties of knowing (mystical insight, spiritual intuition), but adopt different stances toward normativity -- specifically about how and where to 'locate' normativity with regard to the natural world. This, the 'placement problem', poses a challenge to conventional forms of naturalism since the scientific image of the world ultimately has no place for normative phenomena. De Caro and Macarthur explain that the placement problem is apparently intractable for the scientific naturalist orthodoxy.
In short, immediately, there is a recognisable dominant lab coat clad view, the one I have described as evo mat. That dominant view is the one I have specifically addressed, not least for the simple reason that it is dominant, it is the live issue on the streets in the labs and in seminar rooms. I do not appreciate the attempt above to substitute an exotic academic minority view and suggest failure or delusion on my part for speaking to what is dominant instead of minority esoterica. And when the book concedes that there has been controversy over norms, specifically those of the canons of reason and of moral conduct, that is a way of saying that naturalistic schools of thought have long had serious difficulty accounting for the credibility of the mind and the fact that we find ourselves inescapably under moral government. Which is the exact list of concerns I have highlighted on my own observations and on the observations of others far more august than either of us. One of the pivotal issues in that is that in discussions of mind and its roots and reliability, we are in the relevant sense minded so the matter is self referential. Where, cutting to the chase scene, I have CONSISTENTLY found that such are self contradictory as outlined, e.g. Cricks neuron networks. Emergentism comes across in that context as a voila poof smoke cloud over that. Wholism that does not connect to substantial grounds runs into the same problem. And this brings us full circle to exchanges on worldview foundations. As finite fallible minded entities we need finitely remote worldview foundations that need to be coherent and well supported by experience, whatever metaphor we may wish to make in place of the traditional one of building foundations. At this level or first plausibles will not be subject to further proof but should be at least as plausible as alternatives [don't beg questions], and we should have coherence in light of relevant first principles of right reason that are self evident. They should also have elegance, economy and effectiveness in explaining reality. That brings up yet another loaded strawman from EL. Self evident truths are true, are known to be true on understanding them without proof, and are patently seen to be true on pain of IMMEDIATE not subtle absurdity on denial. For instance the denial of 3 + 2 = 5 lands one in immediate hot water. Likewise rocks have no dreams and cannot be deluded that they are conscious and even if we are mistaken as to what we are we are incorrigibly and self evidently, infallibly conscious. (This was a focus for considerable debate some time ago.) and of course, that error exists is undeniable. Such SETs and first principles of reason mow a wide swath across current worldviews, showing up a large scale, widespread disease of irrationality in our time. Back on topic, the reality of moral government leads to a further test: the only point where the IS-OUGHT gap can be bridged is at foundational level. There needs to be an IS in our views that sufficiently grounds OUGHT. There is but one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator God who is a necessary and powerful being [thus, eternal] and the root of reality. In short the issue of moral government points to a transcendent reality that grounds our reality and would also explain our minds as gifts to those made in the image of the root of reality. All of this is of course phil not science, but we are dealing with worldviews here. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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'Mind emergentism is to put the cart before the horse.' Very akin to the point made in scordova's thread, 'Selection after something exists is not the same as selection before something exists,…' They simply don't seem capable of grasping that until they can identify the source of life, itself (evidently the great no-no), their crazy concepts, such as 'natural selection' and 'emergentism' have zero explanatory force; they must forever remain an abject, total 'a priori' nonsense. The hypotheses they are supposed to be built on are(is)* plain non-existent. * The forward trajectory of the design, creation and sustenance of living organisms. They remind of a few such crazy notions: 1) An opening ditty of a toddler's programme when I was a youngster: 'Billy Bean built a machine, to see what it would do. He built it up with sticks and stones and nuts and bolts and glue.' 2) Darn! I've forgotten the other two...!Axel
September 20, 2013
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meanwhile attack attack attack continue apace at TSZ and elsewhere with a clear connexion that sets TSZ up as a front for AtBC — I cut my eyeteeth on dealing with communist subversives in action so don’t even bother with the usual denial, evasion and accusation camouflage and distraction games.
In the face of what is really going on, you are plainly an enabler of bigotry driven by unfounded conspiracy theory accusations, acting in concert with a front web outfit and so are to be reckoned by the company you have chosen to keep.
I am acting 'in concert' with no one. I have never published at TSZ. I know no one at TSZ. I have never been in contact with someone at TSZ except at UD. The only forum company I keep on these matters is here at UD and at Joe's blog, Intelligent Reasoning. I subscribe to Evolution New and View. I have been listening to ID: The Future since . . . 2007? Something like that. I have even personally communicated with Casey Luskin. You are slinging accusations which are just not true. You are overreacting. Clearly.
You are playing the irresponsible, all and only angels on our side, only devils and loonies on your side ideological foot soldier.
If it makes you better to think that, it's up to you.
When you get serious about substantial matters you know where you can find us.
When are you going to treat me like an intelligent, independent, sincere individual?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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As always, thanks for the references bornagain77, like this one by Schroedinger: "Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms". A physicist must have intellectual honesty to admit that something transcends physics. To think that mind can arise when brain or its processing grows in complication is like to think that the engineer emerges when his machine complicates. Mind emergentism is to put the cart before the horse.niwrad
September 20, 2013
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KN: There is a beginning of a substantial discussion. I would point out to you on the Churchland case that she has highlighted something that is significant in its own right, the evo mat challenge to get from survival to truth and rationality. As have ever so many others. Yes, there have been debates and suggestions but the problem is real. Your own in a nutshell fails also, and for the reasons Liebnitz pointed out so long ago in Monadology by using the analogy of the mill. Let me clip you at was it 58:
The relation between a mind and a living animal is not a real relation, because it is not a real distinction — it does not make sense to treat them as separate entities, even notionally. Some cognitive scientists like to say that “the mind is what the brain does”. I would prefer to say that “the mind is what the living animal in its environment does”.
The problem is that on the relevant evo mat -- descriptive short hand -- view, all there is to the brain, CNS and body as a whole is molecules in motion interacting in the end by physics and chemistry [hence millivolts and pulse rates] and attaining configs by alleged processes of blind chance and mechanical necessity that offer incremental survival advantages. No wonder truth and things that go with truth such as reason, take the hindmost. Whether or not the gamut is localised to the brain or expanded to the body as a whole (and we were always obviously describing the living entity, and "live meat" or "meat machine" or "wet ware" etc echo language I have seen from the other side ever so often) we are back to this . . . and I give 300+ year old context not just the focal clip:
MONADOLOGY: 1. The monad, of which we will speak here, is nothing else than a simple substance, which goes to make up compounds; by simple, we mean without parts. 2. There must be simple substances because there are compound substances; for the compound is nothing else than a collection or aggregatum of simple substances. 3. Now, where there are no constituent parts there is possible neither extension, nor form, nor divisibility. These monads are the true atoms [i.e. "indivisibles," the original meaning of a-tomos] of nature, and, in a word, the elements of things . . . . 6. We may say then, that the existence of monads can begin or end only all at once, that is to say, the monad can begin only through creation and end only through annihilation. Compounds, however, begin or end by parts . . . . 14. The passing condition which involves and represents a multiplicity in the unity, or in the simple substance, is nothing else than what is called perception. This should be carefully distinguished from apperception or consciousness . . . . 16. We, ourselves, experience a multiplicity in a simple substance, when we find that the most trifling thought of which we are conscious involves a variety in the object. Therefore all those who acknowledge that the soul is a simple substance ought to grant this multiplicity in the monad . . . . 17. It must be confessed, however, that perception, and that which depends upon it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is to say, by figures and motions. Supposing that there were a machine whose structure produced thought, sensation, and perception, we could conceive of it as increased in size with the same proportions until one was able to enter into its interior, as he would into a mill. Now, on going into it he would find only pieces working upon one another, but never would he find anything to explain perception. It is accordingly in the simple substance, and not in the compound nor in a machine that the perception is to be sought. Furthermore, there is nothing besides perceptions and their changes to be found in the simple substance. And it is in these alone that all the internal activities of the simple substance can consist.
We may bring this up to date by making reference to more modern views of elements and atoms, through an example from chemistry. For instance, once we understand that ions may form and can pack themselves into a crystal, we can see how salts with their distinct physical and chemical properties emerge from atoms like Na and Cl, etc. per natural regularities (and, of course, how the compounds so formed may be destroyed by breaking apart their constituents!). However, the real issue evolutionary materialists face is how to get to mental properties that accurately and intelligibly address and bridge the external world and the inner world of ideas. This, relative to a worldview that accepts only physical components and must therefore arrive at other things by composition of elementary material components and their interactions per the natural regularities and chance processes of our observed cosmos. Now, obviously, if the view is true, it will be possible; but if it is false, then it may overlook other possible elementary constituents of reality and their inner properties. Which is precisely what Liebnitz was getting at. Richard Taylor speaks to this too:
Just as it is possible for a collection of stones to present a novel and interesting arrangement on the side of a hill . . . so it is possible for our such things as our own organs of sense [and faculties of cognition etc.] to be the accidental and unintended results, over ages of time, of perfectly impersonal, non-purposeful forces. In fact, ever so many biologists believe that this is precisely what has happened . . . . [But] [w]e suppose, without even thinking about it, that they [our sense organs etc] reveal to us things that have nothing to do with themselves, their structures or their origins . . . . [However] [i]t would be irrational for one to say both that his sensory and cognitive faculties had a natural, non-purposeful origin and also that they reveal some truth with respect to something other than themselves . . . [For, if] we do assume that they are guides to some truths having nothing to do with themselves, then it is difficult to see how we can, consistently with that supposition [and, e.g. by comparison with the case of the stones on a hillside], believe them to have arisen by accident, or by the ordinary workings of purposeless forces, even over ages of time. [Metaphysics, 2nd Edn, (Prentice-Hall, 1974), pp 115 - 119.]
The issue is captured in the "Welcome to Wales" example he discussed:
. . . suppose you were in a train and saw [outside the window] rocks you believe were pushed there by chance + necessity only, spelling out: WELCOME TO WALES. Would you believe the apparent message, why
This is a foundational question, it is self-referential for evolutionary materialists, and no matter the elaborate and learned account, if it is not resolved plainly and directly, it is a fatal structural crack leading to collapse. As someone experienced in electronic design, I know how it is very possible to chain and couple analogue and digital signal processing blocs in complex ways that do wonderful things. I also know that if you the designer make a blunder, the components will blindly follow the forces you have set in train, and the properties of the materials and structures involved, without any common sense wait a moment this isn't right. On a bad enough blunder, you let the smoke out. On subtler blunders, things will happily proceed in accord with GIGO, and then you have the challenge to track down your mistakes. Suffice to say, no really complex electronics entity works right the first time. Troubleshooting and debugging to get reliable performance is an inescapable part of the design process. In short, the cogs grind away blindly, their configuration to form a coherent, complex system is NOT accounted for on the blind forces, chance and necessity. Indeed that is one road to understanding the significance of FSCO/I as a reliable sign of design. And the notion that complex functional coded algorithms and execution machinery would cobble themselves together out of blind chance and necessity does not even pass the giggle test. And yet, it is those who say, the emperor is parading around without a stitch of clothes, who are being derided and targetted. This is insane! There are only two possibilities that make sense: there are inbuilt self organising principles in nature, and the things we see were directly built by design. I think the real debate is to what extent each holds. Both are for sure partly so. Mind is not to be explained on meat, whether between the ears or the whole organism. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Jerad: Has it ever dawned on you that you need to look in the mirror? There is an ongoing case of unsupported accusation of fraud, conspiracy to impose a theocratic nazi like tyranny on our civilisation and worse at TSZ. This is much wider than TSZ. At BSU, there is a live case of censorship and career busting, on the taxpayer's dime. When you and your ilk have been pointed to a substantial correction of the wedge document conspiracy theory that underlies it, you have ignored it. In addition, for a year now, an open invitation to host a free kick at goal essay justifying the evolutionary materialist claims on OOL and OO body plans has sat unanswered (starting with you) meanwhile attack attack attack continue apace at TSZ and elsewhere with a clear connexion that sets TSZ up as a front for AtBC -- I cut my eyeteeth on dealing with communist subversives in action so don't even bother with the usual denial, evasion and accusation camouflage and distraction games. Also, when a challenge was given to address the grounding of mind on evo mat premises as a supplement to the long standing one, you promptly ducked. Above, I have placed a fairly substantial 101 level outline of problems I have found with evo mat accounts of the mind over the past what's it, 28 years now near as I can figure. These points of concern have been discussed any number of times with serious and informed interlocutors, including a few times here at UD. They reflect sober concerns by leading thinkers over the past 80-odd years, and they point to a pattern of self referential incoherence I have observed for about 30 years, starting with marxists, freudians and behaviourists . . . that is part of why these classic cases are presented. In recent days in your presence IIRC, I listed a cluster of five fairly current examples from advocates of a naturalistic account of mind, which was predictably ignored. In the clip, the basic problem with emergentism is highlighted in a nutshell: voila, poof we get something by accident from no substantially understood cause, in a scheme of thought that locks us up to chance and necessity as root explanations. What is the answer? Pretence of non-understanding, serial strawman caricatures, veiled accusations of being half mad, and your insinuations that I am just being over reactive. Sorry, I have a right to be outraged in the face of enabling of the worst forms of bigotry, hate and slander. I have a right to call out good cop enabling of bad cops. I have a right to point out that the responses above constitute ducking substantial issues to erect strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set them alight to cloud, confuse, polarise and poison the atmosphere. In the face of what is really going on, you are plainly an enabler of bigotry driven by unfounded conspiracy theory accusations, acting in concert with a front web outfit and so are to be reckoned by the company you have chosen to keep. You are playing the irresponsible, all and only angels on our side, only devils and loonies on your side ideological foot soldier. When you get serious about substantial matters you know where you can find us. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Of related interest, Mind, i.e. consciousness, is not emergent from quantum mechanics but is axiomatic to it: “No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” (Max Planck, as cited in de Purucker, Gottfried. 1940. The Esoteric Tradition. California: Theosophical University Press, ch. 13). “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.) Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html Now this is completely unheard of in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future theory is simply unprecedented in science! And please note that free will and consciousness are axiomatic to Quantum Theory in the experiment. What Does Quantum Physics Have to Do with Free Will? - By Antoine Suarez - July 22, 2013 Excerpt: What is more, recent experiments are bringing to light that the experimenter’s free will and consciousness should be considered axioms (founding principles) of standard quantum physics theory. So for instance, in experiments involving “entanglement” (the phenomenon Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”), to conclude that quantum correlations of two particles are nonlocal (i.e. cannot be explained by signals traveling at velocity less than or equal to the speed of light), it is crucial to assume that the experimenter can make free choices, and is not constrained in what orientation he/she sets the measuring devices. To understand these implications it is crucial to be aware that quantum physics is not only a description of the material and visible world around us, but also speaks about non-material influences coming from outside the space-time.,,, https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-does-quantum-physics-have-do-free-will Henry Stapp on the Conscious Choice and the Non-Local Quantum Entangled Effects - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJN01s1gOqA Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting: Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA If God, Why Evil? (1 of 4) – Norm Geisler – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSTzJ-kbfkc or related note: The following experiment reveals that quantum actions are 'universal and instantaneous' without any consideration of time: Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htmbornagain77
September 20, 2013
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Jerad, that was a personality in reponse to a substantial point. You are playing precisely the emotional manipulation one upmanship game that you so despise when WJM even suggests resorting to it in part. And, you have not responded to the substantial point in any cogent way. KF
I'm suggesting that your responses are overly accusatory and unsupported by facts or data. I'm recommending that you throttle back your rhetoric and cease to cast aspersions on everyone who disagrees with you. You seem to be developing acute paranoia in the teeth of . . . nothing really. Good for rallying the troops but doesn't make it true. What is 'a personality in response to a substantial point' anyway?Jerad
September 19, 2013
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KN:
...at work in each of those Big Words is a very complicated conception — a theory, in fact.
Arrgghhh. Theory. Fact. More BIG WORDS!Mung
September 19, 2013
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