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Nathan Lents argues that the human eye refutes design

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Readers may remember Nathan Lents, author of Human Errors: A Panorama of Our Glitches, from Pointless Bones to Broken Genes. In 2015, he was holding forth about the poor design of the human eye: “The human eye is a well-tread example of how evolution can produce a clunky design even when the result is a well-performing anatomical product.”

Perhaps thinking that that assertion does not quite make sense, Cornelius Hunter responds:

For Lents’s “junk design” argument is too good. He correctly points out very significant problems with what is probably the most important human sense; at least insofar as evolution is concerned. Vision is crucial in evolution’s calculus of reproductive fitness. Even Lents admits his own vision would have rendered him an evolutionary loser. Such problems, as Lents eagerly points out, are both significant and common. Lents thinks he has refuted design, but in fact this terrible human vision system never would have survived evolution’s ruthless natural selection filter. Its very existence refutes evolution.

Lents has made a powerful argument against evolution rather than intelligent design, for evolutionary theory predicts no such failure would survive evolutionary history. This certainly is a strange way to formulate an argument against intelligent design. How is it that Lents concludes evidence that contradicts evolutionary theory refutes design?

We have already seen, above, the answer to this question. It lies in Lents’s view of what an intelligent designer would and would not do. Lents concludes this “bad design” evidence refutes design because he believes an intelligent designer would not allow for a vision system that has the problems Lents describes.

Simply put, Lents’s argument entails an assumption about the designer. This brings us to the second problem with his argument — it is not based on empirical science, but rather on metaphysics. There is no scientific experiment one could perform to test Lents’s claim because it is not scientific in the first place. Instead, it is based on theological utilitarianism, a metaphysical position on which ID is agnostic, but evolution requires.

Cornelius Hunter, “Did Nathan Lents Refute Design?” at Evolution News (January 21, 2022)

Well, if we want to get theological about it, Moses was a man slow of speech. Why didn’t the Lord, who had chosen him to free the people, make him eloquent? (Or cure his speech impediment, if that’s what it was.) All we know is, he did free the people anyway. The trouble is, as Hunter notes above, trying to figure out what God should or should not do, apart from the record, is not science.

From the science record, the human eye is very well adapted to what it needs to do.

Incidentally, Lents believes that he would have failed as a (Palaeolithic?) hunter, due to poor eyesight and therefore the eye is poorly designed. There’s another way of looking at it: Problems like that spurred the development of agriculture. Agriculture does not need everyone to have the strength and skills of a hunter. Plenty of people can plant and harvest grain and grind it in a mill. Overall, the human race is probably better off with a mix of strengths and weaknesses, for creativity and innovation.

Comments
but you are going to have a hard time squaring that with your omniscient and omnipotent God
Is the world we live in the best of all possible worlds? I’ve seen no one prove that it’s not the optimal world. You need to understand the objectives of the creator of this world before one can say it’s not the best possible world. You already have been shown why every species must be limited in order to survive. So limited abilities is best design. But do the series of these sub maximums make up the perfect design? It would be a prerequisite that species be sub maximum to be optimal or perfect design. If the objectives of the creator of this world were crystal clear, then would anyone doubt the creator. Would we then be automatons? Essentially without free will? It would take an extremely intelligent and powerful creator to pull this off.jerry
January 24, 2022
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Seversky Regarding the fourth sensor... did you notice what i replied in the other ‘Eagle eyes’ post? Eyes and energy consumption?martin_r
January 24, 2022
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Seversky... I did it already elsewhere, but let me wish you once again - Happy 5th birthday! Seversky ... all my questions about RGB color space are rhetorical... As to ‘we don‘t know yet’ .... but these are fundamental questions to answer if you Darwinists want to continue to make jokes of creationists ... of course, these questions will never be answered .... i wish i had your level of faith ... it is very disturbing what you lay Darwinists are willing to accept ...martin_r
January 24, 2022
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Seversky at 17 states,
Are you aware that the argument being made is that evidence of design is evidence of the limitations of the designer and, therefore, inconsistent with the Christian concept of an omniscient and omnipotent deity?,,, So, by all means, you,, are welcome to your Intelligent Designer if all you mean is some advanced alien intelligence – I have no problem at all with that – but you are going to have a hard time squaring that with your omniscient and omnipotent God.
So Seversky, let's get this straight. You, via your no problem with 'advanced alien intelligence', are basically admitting that you have less than zero evidence that unguided Darwinian processes can account for the origin and diversity of life on earth. But, on the other hand, you are absolutely certain that the Intelligent designer of life on earth is not the Judeo-Christian God because the Judeo-Christian would never allow us to exist in a less than perfect world? Really?? The world is less than perfect therefore Judeo-Christian theism is not true? That's your argument???? But Seversky, Christianity has NEVER claimed that we live in a perfect world. NEVER! To be blunt Seversky, perhaps you should have gone to Sunday school a little more often as a child. I mean REALLY, the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, and resultant fact that we live in a less than perfect world, is one of the first things that you learn in Sunday school as a child.
Fall of man In mainstream Christianity, the doctrine of the Fall is closely related to that of original sin or ancestral sin.[2] They believe that the Fall brought sin into the world, corrupting the entire natural world, including human nature, causing all humans to be born into original sin, a state from which they cannot attain eternal life without the grace of God. ,,, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_man
Also see William Dembski's book on Theodicy, "Finding a Good God in an Evil World"
The End of Christianity: Finding a Good God in an Evil World William A. Dembski https://billdembski.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf
Quote: "Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge (the existence of) transcendent (moral) standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,,"
The Universe Reflects a Mind – Michael Egnor – February 28, 2018 Excerpt: Goff argues that a Mind is manifest in the natural world, but he discounts the existence of God because of the problem of evil. Goff seriously misunderstands the problem of evil. Evil is an insoluble problem for atheists, because if there is no God, there is no objective standard by which evil and good can exist or can even be defined. If God does not exist, “good” and “evil” are merely human opinions. Yet we all know, as Kant observed, that some things are evil in themselves, and not merely as a matter of opinion. Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2018/02/the-universe-reflects-a-mind/ the·od·i·cy noun noun: theodicy; plural noun: theodicies the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil.
bornagain77
January 24, 2022
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Martin_r/8
Could some smart Darwinist give me an idea, how blind unguided natural process figured out, how to assemble 16 millions of colors based on R/G/B information coming from eyes into the brain ?
You can ask this and many other questions about biological evolution and the answer will still be the same "We don't know yet". I appreciate this must be difficult for engineers to understand - they are working with the known, the tried and tested, because they have to - but scientists are looking for the unknown, which has yet to be tried and tested. They are trying to add to our knowledge rather than find ways to apply what we already know.
So how blind unguided natural process figured this out ??? What is the right combination ??? We talking about 16,000,000 of right combinations of RED/GREEN/BLUE data !!!!
Even more than that in the few individuals who are tetrachromats. But if they can integrate four color sensors why didn't the designer give that capacity to us all?Seversky
January 24, 2022
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Ayearningforpublius I had a look at your links above ...good job... You also cite R Dawkins and his ridiculous just-so story on alleged evolution of the human eye ... Who is Dawkins? How is he qualified to review such a sophisticated design? How is Dawkins qualified to comment on any design? As far as i know, he is a natural science graduate... a romantic... this guy never made anything ... he wont be able to assemble an ikea cabinet (without a guidebook ) Recently, a famous US biologist passed away... Prof. E.O. Wilson AKA The Darwin of the 20th century.... Look at what he thought of Dawkins
There is no dispute between me and Richard Dawkins and there never has been, because he's a journalist. "Journalists are people that report what the scientists have found and the arguments I've had have actually been with scientists doing research.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-29959821 This is it ... basically, a journalist is commenting on very advanced design ... What is wrong with these people ??? People like Dawkins infested the whole world with very absurd claims/ideas... What i dont understand, why so many smart educated people listen to such absurd claims???martin_r
January 24, 2022
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Doubter/1
Lents’ argument reveals the common severe failing of most biologists in that they have no actual experience in designing anything, but still make grand pronouncements as if they knew everything there is to know about it. His argument ignores the inherent and basic nature of any very complex and intricate mechanism (in this case the human eye). Any engineer knows that such a mechanism inherently incorporates numerous design tradeoffs between different and conflicting requirements
Are you aware that the argument being made is that evidence of design is evidence of the limitations of the designer and, therefore, inconsistent with the Christian concept of an omniscient and omnipotent deity? Nor is this a recent argument as it was stated cogently by the 19th century English philosopher John Stuart Mill as follows:
It is not too much to say that every indication of Design in the Kosmos is so much evidence against the Omnipotence of the Designer. For what is meant by Design? Contrivance: the adaptation of means to an end. But the necessity for contrivance—the need of employing means—is a consequence of the limitation of power. Who would have recourse to means if to attain his end his mere word was sufficient? The very idea of means implies that the means have an efficacy which the direct action of the being who employs them has not. Otherwise they are not means, but an incumbrance. A man does not use machinery to move his arms. If he did, it could only be when paralysis had deprived him of the power of moving them by volition. But if the employment of contrivance is in itself a sign of limited power, how much more so is the careful and skilful choice of contrivances? Can any wisdom be shown in the selection of means, when the means have no efficacy but what is given them by the will of him who employs them, and when his will could have bestowed the same efficacy on any other means? Wisdom and contrivance are shown in overcoming difficulties, and there is no room for them in a Being for whom no difficulties exist. The evidences, therefore, of Natural Theology distinctly imply that the author of the Kosmos worked under limitations; that he was obliged to adapt himself to conditions independent of his will, and to attain his ends by such arrangements as those conditions admitted of. […] If it be said, that an Omnipotent Creator, though under no necessity of employing contrivances such as man must use, thought fit to do so in order to leave traces by which man might recognize his creative hand, the answer is that this equally supposes a limit to his omnipotence. For if it was his will that men should know that they themselves and the world are his work, he, being omnipotent, had only to will that they should be aware of it.
So, by all means, you and Jerry and martin-r and WJM and KF and BA77 etc, are welcome to your Intelligent Designer if all you mean is some advanced alien intelligence - I have no problem at all with that - but you are going to have a hard time squaring that with your omniscient and omnipotent God.Seversky
January 24, 2022
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Martin_r @4 FYI, nobody uses the term "retarded" anymore... Jerry @15
Just imagine if humans could fly, have hawk eyes, and run like cheetahs, there wouldn’t be any living thing alive.
Boy, you hit that nail smack on the head....chuckdarwin
January 24, 2022
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Everyone is missing the point.
Every life form on Earth is limited.
Either the designer did this on purpose. Or the natural mechanism for Evolution is self limiting. For the first, the reason for this is obvious. Unless every life form is limited, the life forms that are not limited will destroy the ecology necessary for survival. And thus destroy themselves. Thus when Seversky asks why didn’t the designer give us the eyes of an owl or bigger brains, the answer is obvious. He was provided with this reasoning but continued to ask the question so he continued to play his games by ignoring it. But suppose all we see here in this world is the result of natural processes. Then why is every life form on the planet a miracle of complexity but yet limited. With each life form having something special about it so it doesn’t get eliminated in its ecology but most definitely limited. (I understand that numerous species have been eliminated including many by humans as they used their superior skills to kill them. Just imagine if humans could fly, have hawk eyes, and run like cheetahs, there wouldn’t be any living thing alive.) But nothing close exists. Why? Natural processes don’t understand this necessary limitation on evolving. Because these superior species never did exists, it refutes Evolution by natural processes. Aside: is the typical pro ID commenter here interested in establishing ID or just interested in supposedly making anti ID people look stupid? My guess the latter as 90+% of the comments are on irrelevant or inane ideas. I saw a survey this morning and less than a third of college age or younger believe in God. And at a time when the scientific evidence is overwhelming that there was a creator of immense power. https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status/1410989426440876033 Aside2: no matter what level of a characteristic/capability desired, if it was there the person originally objecting would then request more by asking for even better eyes, more intelligence, faster speed or even more agility. There would be no limited on what was demanded Not knowing that by not already having those capabilities they have refuted what they espouse.jerry
January 24, 2022
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Here is another article I wrote on the design/evolution of vision. https://ayearningforpublius.wordpress.com/2015/07/14/the-eye-a-biological-miracle-but-of-what-sort/ayearningforpublius
January 24, 2022
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Nathan Lent's book falls into the category of "I wouldn't have designed it that way, therefore God doesn't exist." The following link is to an article I wrote a number of years ago, showing the many goal-oriented designs we see in nature all around us and within us. https://ayearningforpublius.wordpress.com/2016/08/05/the-not-so-intelligent-designer/ayearningforpublius
January 24, 2022
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JVL, cry me a river ...martin_r
January 23, 2022
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LoL! @ JVL! You don't discuss science! You don't even know what science entails.ET
January 23, 2022
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JVL, I'm just an occasional poster, so I don't think I have any leverage to get the issue investigated. You might be able to post in incognito mode in case it's a cookie issue (seems unlikely based on what you've said), or trying with a different user id, or trying from a different IP address (assuming you're using a VPN, or could use a proxy or Tor). I know those aren't solutions, but they might help determine the cause of the problem. I know it's not necessarily helpful, but some of those might be worth trying if you haven't already.davidl1
January 23, 2022
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I'm really sorry Lt Com Data but after I posted a comment to ET on the thread https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/is-darwinism-an-empty-theory/ I was blocked. Again. I'm not inclined to keep trying over and over and over again just because the site admin can't get their WordFence settings right. If you want me to respond to you on the appropriate thread talk to them. Not that anyone is going to do that. I don't even pretend to think that any of you who have posting privileges care. It would be encouraging if you at least made a gesture. But you won't. And so it goes. Welcome to Uncommon Descent. It's not about actually discussing the science. It's about promoting those who agree with us.JVL
January 23, 2022
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Darwinists love to talk about poor human eye design, but they never talk about other very important things, among others- color image processing ... I as an engineer, never understood how do Darwinists imagine human eye color processing in RGB color space. Could some smart Darwinist give me an idea, how blind unguided natural process figured out, how to assemble 16 millions of colors based on R/G/B information coming from eyes into the brain ?
RGB color space or RGB color system, constructs all the colors from the combination of the Red, Green and Blue colors. The red, green and blue use 8 bits each, which have integer values from 0 to 255. This makes 256*256*256=16777216 possible colors.
I am talking about the following: RED cones/sensors send some information, GREEN cones/sensors send some information, BLUE cones/sensors send some information ... now the brain needs to combine/mix these to get you the right color ... So how blind unguided natural process figured this out ??? What is the right combination ??? We talking about 16,000,000 of right combinations of RED/GREEN/BLUE data !!!! https://www.rapidtables.com/web/color/RGB_Color.html#:~:text=RGB%20color%20space%20or%20RGB,*256%3D16777216%20possible%20colors. PS: another question is, how blind unguided process figured out that there is a RGB color space ? i never heard Darwinists to speak about this ... never ...martin_r
January 23, 2022
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No one has to refute that which lacks evidentiary support and cannot be tested.
And yet most people believe it and it is taught in textbooks. Why, because it sounds reasonable. What is taught in textbooks, is genetics but disguised because it is called micro evolution. And genetics or micro evolution has a firm base in science. How does one expose the bait and switch? Not by saying it is unproven and belittling Darwin. Genetics
Genetics is the scientific study of genes and heredity—of how certain qualities or traits are passed from parents to offspring as a result of changes in DNA sequence
Darwin's theory is 1) variability in DNA sequence (He new nothing about DNA but suspected something was varying between generations) 2) heritability 3) natural selection Modern genetics is based on the above ideas put forward by Darwin.jerry
January 23, 2022
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Actually the variability of vision is Nature's way of improving the fitness of the SPECIES, not the individual. Just as individuals have different temperaments and different genders and different labor talents, they have different vision capacities. Some see better up close, some see better at a distance, some don't see at all. More variety means more ways to adapt to different situations, if we ALLOW the variety and PROVIDE DISTINCT JOBS AND ROLES for each variation. When we start with the assumption that everyone is "created equal", we forcibly adjust all variations toward the mean by medical or mechanical methods or by eugenics. We lose the natural adaptability.polistra
January 23, 2022
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what is more disturbing, Darwinists claim, that basically the same very sophisticated camera eyes evolved two times independently (humans, octopuses) ... by blind unguided process ... how absurd does that sound ? What rational educated person can buy this non-sense?martin_r
January 23, 2022
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these Darwinian clowns ... human eye outperforms any camera/lens humans ever created, but this Darwinian clown (natural science graduate), who never made anything, will call human eye a clunky/poor design ... These guys are really retarded ... i have no doubts now ... https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/uk/news/will-cameras-be-better-than-the-human-eye-one-day-new-research-says-maybemartin_r
January 23, 2022
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No one has to refute that which lacks evidentiary support and cannot be tested. And the claim that vision systems evolved by means of blind and mindless processes, such as natural selection and drift, lacks evidentiary support and testability. Christopher Hitchens said we can dismiss such claims. Also, Nathan needs to remember that vision systems, containing multiple, differentiated cells, arose from a single cell. Developmental biology isn't someone adding optimal parts to an existing, optimal system.ET
January 23, 2022
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Darwinian evolution refutes itself. That is Evolution by Darwinian means is impossible. Look all around us. There are thousands of examples of great capabilities but none are all in one species. One would think that one species would emerge with a plethora of high level capabilities but there are none. Humans are the only conscious species with a high level of intelligence but far less than optimal physical capabilities. Why? Because that would be extremely bad design but it should have happened with Darwinian processes. It should allow for some species to dominate all others and in the process eliminate itself. But this has not happened However, great design would have an overwhelming number of species with far less than ultimate capabilities in order for it and the rest of the species to survive. Is it necessary for the best world of zillions of species to have limited capabilities for each of its species? Is the best of all possible world of species one where it is one instance after the other of imperfection? Do we live in a series of imperfections that add up to the best set of trade-offs to be the best of all possible worlds Aren’t you glad we don’t have the eyes of an owl/hawk, the speed of a cheetah, the agility of monkeys? If we did, we would have eliminated ourselves millions of years ago.jerry
January 23, 2022
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Lents' argument reveals the common severe failing of most biologists in that they have no actual experience in designing anything, but still make grand pronouncements as if they knew everything there is to know about it. His argument ignores the inherent and basic nature of any very complex and intricate mechanism (in this case the human eye). Any engineer knows that such a mechanism inherently incorporates numerous design tradeoffs between different and conflicting requirements. The incredibly complex system of systems and subsystems of the human body inevitably and necessarily has a limited capacity to satisfy all the conflicting requirements simultaneously. Just like in a human-designed automobile there might be simultaneous ideal design requirements or goals say for all in the same machine to have high power and acceleration capacity, a high carrying capacity of one ton, total vehicle weight under 3600 pounds, and high reliability. And let’s say you also want a long range of 500 miles, the ability to park and fit in a standard parking slot, a high degree of complex but correspondingly inherently failure-prone automation making many functions and conveniences automatic, and last but not least, a retail price of less than $15,000. These requirements are fundamentally conflicting and will inevitably require tradeoffs and limitations in some of the requirement goals, based on carefully weighing the pros and cons in each case. That’s engineering, whether it’s automobiles or the immeasureably more complex human body. Hence what must be a certain inevitability due to many inherent factors including the performance limitations of biologically created materials and their availability and metabolic costs, of there being many failure modes in the human body, in particular disease. In such an intricate system of systems every design change to correct a flaw in performance inevitably affects numerous other subsystems, some adversely. It's all a matter of many complex series of tradeoffs. Of course biologists don't understand this - after all they aren't engineers; but they still unwarrantedly assume expertise that can somehow overcome basic engineering principles. In other words they make untenable and ignorant assumptions about the capabilities of any designers, as if designers (whatever their nature) were unlimited by the way the physical world inherently works.doubter
January 23, 2022
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