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Never Fall into the Trap of Trying to Argue for the Self Evident

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For two reasons, it is a mistake to argue for self-evident propositions.  First, it is impossible to argue for a self-evident proposition because the definition of a self-evident proposition is a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning.  Consider the challenge “I deny 1+1=2.  Prove it.”  Don’t fall for it.  If a person denies the glaring truth of such an analytic statement (i.e., 1+1 actually means 2), they are a hopeless fool. Nothing you can say to them will reduce the proposition to more basic terms. 

Secondly, arguing for self-evident truths is rhetorically self-defeating, because the very act of trying to argue for them concedes the proposition that they are “arguable.”  And they are, again by definition, not arguable. 

This is not an academic matter.  We live in a time when self-evident truths are being denied by foolish and/or evil people.  The following Facebook exchange that I had last weekend brought this home to me.  Note especially my “king has no clothes” response at the end.

Barry opens the debate:

A date that will live in infamy. NCAA gives women’s swimming championship to man posing as a woman.  One thing makes this Texan’s heart nearly burst with pride though. The girl in burnt orange giving him the stink eye on the podium.  BTW, for the nearly braindead and progressives (categories that overlap considerably), I have added handy notes to identify the man and the women.

“Jessica” responds:

Here’s an idea: you could make your point respectfully. If you really care about changing hearts and minds (indeed, this a powerful photo) maybe you could avoid insulting those who disagree or remain undecided on this controversial issue. Our public discourse deserves better.

Barry replies:

Jessica chides me for not being respectful to the people who argue that men pretending to be women should be allowed to crush real women in athletic competitions.  To this I say there is certainly a time for respectful dialogue among people acting in good faith concerning matters about which people of good will can differ. This is not one of them.

Anyone who says a man is a woman is a liar. Anyone who says they are “undecided” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Anyone who says there is a “controversy” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Liars are murderers of the truth and worthy of nothing but contempt.

You err when you suggest that my purpose is to change hearts and minds. It is not. Everyone’s hearts and minds are already of one accord in that everyone already knows a man can never be a woman and men should not be allowed to crush women in athletic competitions.

When the king walked down the street with no clothes on, no one needed to be convinced that he was naked.  No one needed a thoughtful augment designed to change their hearts and minds about the obvious facts that they already knew. They needed to be reminded that they were cowards and liars for denying the obvious truth.

No, I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I am holding evil people up for the contempt they richly deserve.

Comments
Matthew 19:4 KJV And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female ...Blastus
March 23, 2022
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Vivid, admittedly, mine is a second hand account. And I would have fired the person as well. I have also been through several courses. They were originally called “sensitivity training” but are more recently called “diversity in the workplace.” Although I thought i was always respectful of others, these courses did open my eyes to a few behaviours that I didn’t realize could cause distress for others. Personally, I have no problem with homosexuality, same sex marriage or transgendered. We shouldn’t be putting any unreasonable restrictions on people leading the lives they want to. The tipping point, of course, is when their actions cause harm to others. Many of the transgendered controversies are a tempest in a teapot. Things like the bathroom issue for example. Transgendered have always been using the bathroom of their choice, with no issues. All they are asking is to be able to do so without the risk of being arrested. Their participation in women’s sports is a different issue. Personally, I don’t think it should be allowed at the top competitive levels. But for recreational sports, who cares.Scamp
March 23, 2022
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Scamp I don’t know what was said in the meeting since it’s a second hand account but I will assume the story is accurate. I would have fired them as well. All people should be treated with respect and dignity . Let me tell you my story which is not a second hand account and I personally saw the materials that were distributed. My daughter has a very high position in one of the largest hospitals in the country. One day I get a text from her along with screen shots of the various educational materials. She was subjected to a mandatory day long meeting where she had , under threat of losing her job, attend on gender identity. She had to participate in what can only be described as a struggle session where she had to affirm things she strenuously disagreed with, once again under threat for her job. The day long struggles session had nothing to do with treating people with respect or calling people what name they wanted to be called. My daughter believes that for instance (men who think they are women) should be treated with the utmosts respect. That what ever name they want to be called is how they should be addressed . However she was forced to acknowledge what she knew was a lie in order to keep her job. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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A company a friend of mine works for has an employee that was undergoing a sex change. The President of the company had a meeting with all staff, excluding the transitioning person, and told them that he expected them all to treat her with respect, and to respect the decision. There was one employee who refused to do this, refusing to address the person by her changed name and otherwise refusing to respect the decision. The president fired this person for creating a poisoned work environment.Scamp
March 23, 2022
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Sev
My question to you would be, if they are willing to undergo the medical interventions and social stresses involved in transitioning and if it causes no harm to other members of society then why shouldn’t they?
1. They are harming others. In the OP I described how they harmed real women who worked their entire lives toward a goal, only to have it yanked from them at the last moment by a person who was competing on the men's team (where he belonged) just a few short months ago. 2. Why shouldn't they? On the one hand, they can do whatever they want so long as they don't force others to join them in their delusion, which they have done. On the other hand, the loving thing to do when someone is mentally/emotionally disturbed and living a lie is to try to help them. Saying, yes, you really are a man is not helping them.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2022
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“Call it sex or gender but they have changed. “ Not their biological sex. “What exactly is this great lie that is being promoted with threats of shaming and loss of jobs?” That a biological male with XY chromosomes is a woman. “As for changing your age, no, you can’t change your calendar age “ If I can change my sex why not my age? Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Vividbleau/38
You are clueless, they have not changed their sex.
Call it sex or gender but they have changed. You may not like it but you can only deny it by denying the evidence.
Another falsehood, it is not enough that they believe a lie, or that you believe a lie but others have to participate in the lie as well under threat of shaming, loss of job, etc, etc, you will be punished for telling the truth.
What exactly is this great lie that is being promoted with threats of shaming and loss of jobs? As for changing your age, no, you can't change your calendar age but there are many people who spend a lot of time, money and trouble trying to change their appearance of ageing If it makes them happy then why shouldn't they do it? Who does it harm?Seversky
March 23, 2022
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“under what was excessively partisan and hostile questioning from certain quarters” How dare they ask her( although she doesn’t know what a she or a her is) about her ( although she doesn’t know what a she or her is) record or her ( although she doesn’t know what a she or her is) judicial philosophy ( although she doe’s know what a she or a her is) to the smears and lies aimed at Barret, Kavanaugh, Thomas, Bork etc. I constantly ask myself what alternate universe you inhabit. “ think she demonstrated a very judicial demeanor” OMG she doesn’t even know what a woman is. How can you adjudicate sexual discrimination cases against women when you don’t know what a woman is? “By the way, did we ever get a verifiable justification for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or was it more like Putin’s justification for his attack on Ukraine?” KF don’t fall for Sevs attempt to derail the topic of the OP. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Kairosfocus/33
Yup . . . slouching towards Gomorrah.
By the way, did we ever get a verifiable justification for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or was it more like Putin's justification for his attack on Ukraine?Seversky
March 23, 2022
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Kairosfocus/27
Sev, kindly note my context. Your construct is first comparable to here is a nine sided hexagon, and is enabling of the agenda of blatant untruth imposed by power in attack on sound conscience that does contribute bit by bit to the sort of 1984 style undermining I pointed to; which is what can indeed do serious harm to civilisation.
Specifically what "blatant untruth" is being imposed on us by power by an incipient 1984-style autocracy?
Already, your country, to this geostrategic analyst as concerned onlooker, is contemplating appointing to your nine member co monarchy, one whose want of judicious temperament is seen through this same issue among others.
If you are referring to Ketanji Brown Jackson's nomination to the US Supreme Court, I think she demonstrated a very judicial demeanor under what was excessively partisan and hostile questioning from certain quarters who had no objections to Mitch McConnell's blatant stonewalling of President Obama's nominees. It seems that the right will have no objection to a "co monarchy" as long as it was packed with members who have demonstrated impeccable Trumpinista credentials.
Already, conversion of a high court into such a co monarchy is more than dangerous enough — why wasn’t this stoutly fought and corrected long since?
If you are talking about a Supreme Court that is so packed with conservatives that they would be prepared to be a rubber stamp for President Trump's ambitions if he is re-elected and finds a way to become President-for-life then you will find the US descending into a 1984/North Korean/Russian style autocracy which is what a significant portion of the US population appears to want as preferable to the progressive liberalism they fear and despise. Anyone who thinks that will be in for a very rude awakening if Trump were ever to get his way.Seversky
March 23, 2022
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“No one is trying to compel you or anyone else to change sex so what’s the problem?” You are clueless, they have not changed their sex. “If they can make you believe absurdities they can make you believe atrocities” Voltaire “My question to you would be, if they are willing to undergo the medical interventions and social stresses involved in transitioning and if it causes no harm to other members of society then why shouldn’t they? No one is trying to compel you….” Another falsehood, it is not enough that they believe a lie, or that you believe a lie but others have to participate in the lie as well under threat of shaming, loss of job, etc, etc, you will be punished for telling the truth. Funny story, tonight I was discussing this with my son and my 12 year old grandson overheard the conservation and in the conversation I mentioned my age. My grandson said to me “Papa why can’t you just change your age” and then he laughed. It’s quite a commentary when my 12 year old grandson knows more than Seversky. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Barry Arrington/24
“The pragmatic solution, it seems to me, bla bla bla” Or they can stop lying. There is no such thing as a transgender woman if by “transgender woman” one means a man who has, somehow, become a woman. That does not happen. It will never happen. Sev, the problem with your “solution” is that it is based on the unstated premise that we should change women’s sports to accommodate men pretending to be women. Back up Bubba. Explain to me why we should do that before explaining to me how we should do that.
If we are concerned about evidence then I suggest we have more than enough to support the claim that there are men who wish to adopt the female gender role in society for reasons of their own. My question to you would be, if they are willing to undergo the medical interventions and social stresses involved in transitioning and if it causes no harm to other members of society then why shouldn't they? No one is trying to compel you or anyone else to change sex so what's the problem?Seversky
March 23, 2022
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"This is because to be gullible about impossible things and skeptical about self-evident things is the height of intellectual achievement. Wisdom is folly." - John C. Wright
Gaslight — A Third Reminder - 2019 - John C. Wright Excerpt: Reminders of the obvious are useful and necessary in world where all our major public institutions are engaged in a reckless policy of gaslighting the public, that is, of saying obviously false, absurdly illogical, and morally repugnant things with an assumed air of nonchalance, as if you, dear reader, were the madman for not conforming to the appearance of a consensus. The conformist believes that 97% of scientists agree bad weather resulting from air travel and cow flatulence will render the Earth uninhabitable in ten years time. The only possible solution to the looming crisis is to enact universal socialized medicine, abolish the law of supply and demand, and to have your children spayed and neutered. This is because science is based, not on objective reality, but on a consensus of scientific opinion, which is to say, political opinion. Truth is untrue. The conformist believes that pregnant men are guaranteed a constitutional right to murder a child in his womb, because men are not necessarily male, and children in the womb are not necessarily children. This is because constitutional law is based, not on logic, but on the proposition that a thing can be and not be both itself and not itself, at the same time and in the same sense. Reason is unreason. The conformist believes that sex is a social myth and not a biological reality, hence can be changed at whim, no matter what your genetic composition when born. On the other hand, sexual perversion, fetishism, pederasty, sodomy, and suchlike, are innate and genetically determined, hence cannot be changed. Therefore it should be illegal to offer counseling services to those struggling with same-sex attraction who seek a cure, because perversion is not a disorder, and there is nothing to cure. It should be celebrated instead. This is because sexual passion, but only when it is perverted from the norm, and thus aids in the dissolution of the nuclear family, is sacrosanct, and not to be opposed, nor even questioned. Decency and chastity are sinister attempts to oppress the righteous. Virtue is vice. The conformist believes that Epstein committed suicide, and that the news not only reported this fairly and accurately but is diligently following up the clues, seeking the truth. This is because to be gullible about impossible things and skeptical about self-evident things is the height of intellectual achievement. Wisdom is folly. http://www.scifiwright.com/2019/11/gaslight-a-third-reminder/
bornagain77
March 23, 2022
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KF @ 27 Isn’t a “nine-sided hexagon,” actually a nonagon? For the record, I agree with Sev that Western culture does not hang in the balance due to transgenderism. Five years from now it’ll be all worked out, just like legal pot and same-sex marriage. No reason to get all apoplectic about it….chuckdarwin
March 23, 2022
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Wokeness has utterly corrupted Universities. Steven Crowder submitted a paper called "Fatness as Self-care in the Era of Trump" to an academic conference at Massey University using the name "Sea Mattheson." The paper, which is every bit as absurd as you imagine, was accepted Not only that, but Steven Croder (@scrowder) who is a man, dressed up as a woman, called himself Sea Mattheson, and digitally presented the paper at the virtual conference for PhD's and tenured professors ... and nobody at the conference could tell that the paper was a joke. Warning the above I got off of twitter( Wokaldistance) so it may be made up. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Yup . . . slouching towards Gomorrah.kairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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KF “Now, the slippery slope ratchet moves on to the next notch or two” Like safe, legal and rare? Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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News “One reason I think this IS a science issue – not just a political one – is that the very concept of evidence from nature is at stake if we can’t take such things seriously at face value.” Science is not, cannot and will not escape the ramifications of literally denying reality the subject of scientific inquiry. Wokism is at war not only with science but nature itself. We are well on our way to Lysenkoism. Vividvividbleau
March 23, 2022
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Sev @ 26: “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” ? George Orwell, 1984. The whole point of this exercise is for progressives to arrogate unto themselves the authority to force you to deny the evidence of your eyes and ears. That is ultimate power. That is what they lust after. That is why you are wrong.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2022
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One bad consequence of the triumph of Woke has been wholesale avoidance of evidence from nature. Here's a question: How often do women get transitioned in order to compete in the majors with men? We all know why they don't, don't we? One reason I think this IS a science issue - not just a political one - is that the very concept of evidence from nature is at stake if we can't take such things seriously at face value. How odd if Darwinians, of all people, would want to take the side of the Woke in this one.News
March 23, 2022
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@Seversky@22 Your plea to institute new sport classifications has been heard: Ms Samson Agonistes, President of the influential rights group, Women With Testicles, speaking at a ceremony to induct Lia Thomas into the Women With Testicles Hall of Fame, has called for a new classification in sport. “The time is now to get away from the bipolar classification of sports into men’s and women’s. We see in future, for example, Men’s Baseball, Women’s Baseball, and Women With Testicles’ Baseball.” Head of Fox Sports, Dropkick Murphy, said he generally supports the idea but doubts if there were enough players in the third category to make two teams.Belfast
March 23, 2022
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Sev, kindly note my context. Your construct is first comparable to here is a nine sided hexagon, and is enabling of the agenda of blatant untruth imposed by power in attack on sound conscience that does contribute bit by bit to the sort of 1984 style undermining I pointed to; which is what can indeed do serious harm to civilisation. Already, your country, to this geostrategic analyst as concerned onlooker, is contemplating appointing to your nine member co monarchy, one whose want of judicious temperament is seen through this same issue among others. Already, conversion of a high court into such a co monarchy is more than dangerous enough -- why wasn't this stoutly fought and corrected long since? Now, the slippery slope ratchet moves on to the next notch or two. So, no, I do not buy that this is of little consequence and can be ignored, a ratchet cumulatively trends somewhere. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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Kairosfocus/17
* F/N, given certain red guard faux rage tactics, kindly note I am of afro-euro-indio-Caribbean ethnicity and not an American but I am going to champion basic civilisation; which is patently under assault by barbarians in the gates who don’t realise the consequences of toppling what they seek to overturn. So, kindly refrain from silly rhetoric about race or misogyny. Instead, read and ponder Plato’s Ship of State parable i/l/o Athens’ failure through the Peloponnesian war.
I may be wrong but I doubt that allowing a transgender woman to compete in a swimming event is going to be sufficient to bring about the collapse of Western civilization.Seversky
March 23, 2022
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Sev, the power backed championing of patent absurdity is championing of untruth in intimidation of truth and sound conscience; injustice is founded on untruth and attacks sound conscience. KF PS, And yes, I am pointing to the branch on which we all cannot but sit, self evident first principle nature of the Ciceronian first duties of reason . . . foundational to sound civilisation: Kindly, see Dallas Willard on the legitimate authority of knowledge (vs the radical narrative of oppression) https://uncommondescent.com/education/lfp-48i-dallas-willard-on-the-legitimate-authority-of-knowledge-vs-the-radical-narrative-of-oppression/ note the list of first duties:
1st – to truth, 2nd – to right reason, 3rd – to prudence [including <a href = "">warrant], 4th – to sound conscience, 5th – to neighbour; so also, 6th – to fairness and 7th – to justice [ . . .] xth – etc.
kairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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Sev, "The pragmatic solution, it seems to me, bla bla bla" Or they can stop lying. There is no such thing as a transgender woman if by "transgender woman" one means a man who has, somehow, become a woman. That does not happen. It will never happen. Sev, the problem with your "solution" is that it is based on the unstated premise that we should change women's sports to accommodate men pretending to be women. Back up Bubba. Explain to me why we should do that before explaining to me how we should do that.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2022
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for example, is never pitted against a heavyweight against whom the lighter man would stand very little chance. I don’t think it is beyond the wit of man – or woman – to devise such a scheme, is it?
You obviously don’t understand the difference between men and women in terms of physical characteristics. They have different muscle development as well as weight and body size. Look at the women who actually won. She’s tall and thin and I bet with small breast. But probably fairly strong. (Remember I pointed out the odd thing is the woman from Texas who actually finished second. She’s unlike nearly every top swimmer I have known because of body shape. Especially for freestyle.) I’m aware of several outstanding female high school athletes who never developed any further because their bodies changed dramatically as they got older. They might just want to have a category for other.jerry
March 23, 2022
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I think the NCAA decision was ill-considered but to call it evil is hyperbole. The pragmatic solution, it seems to me, if transgender women are to be allowed to compete in such events, is to follow the example of boxing where it is divided into weight divisions so that a featherweight, for example, is never pitted against a heavyweight against whom the lighter man would stand very little chance. I don't think it is beyond the wit of man - or woman - to devise such a scheme, is it?Seversky
March 23, 2022
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FE, the tactic is part of the agit prop agenda, turnabout projection. I need not identify the two most notorious practitioners, whose surnames started with G and H. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2022
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ChuckyD, Since you have calmed down a little, maybe you could explain why this OP in particular triggered you? If you could address the content of the OP that would help with some understanding. It's pretty unclear why the cryptic hit and run at #1. Andrewasauber
March 23, 2022
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So "Jessica" responds, "Here’s an idea: you could make your point respectfully." I have always been amazed at how progressives accuse conservatives of doing what they themselves do all the time. The only times I have been flamed, cancelled, or publicly whipped on social media is when I respectfully disagreed with some progressive opinion or statement. It seems that progressives can be civil only when you agree with them, and they seem to think it their duty to attack by any means - fair or otherwise - anything they disagree with. Very one sided arguments result; which, of course, is what they want.Fasteddious
March 23, 2022
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