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No evidence for God’s existence, you say? A response to Larry Moran

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Despite my disagreements with Professor Larry Moran over the years, I respect him as a fair-minded, intelligent and generally sensible person. Recently, however, he said something which can only be described as rather silly. In a post titled, Evidence for the existence of god(s), he wrote:

I am always on the lookout for evidence that some sort of god actually exists. The reason I’m an atheist is because I’ve never seen any evidence that’s the least bit convincing. I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.

Now, had Professor Moran merely remarked that he found the evidence for God’s existence less than compelling, or unsatisfactory, he would have had a leg to stand on. But he went much further: he declared it to be not in the least bit convincing, which can only mean that he sets its evidential value at zero. He then added: “I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.” The only conclusion I can draw is that Professor Moran really thinks there is no evidence for God. This interpretation is confirmed by a remark he makes in another post, where he declares that “[s]o far, the scientific way of knowing has uncovered no evidence of anything that exists outside of the natural world” (emphasis mine – VJT), although he allows that science may discover evidence of the supernatural, “at some time in the future.”

In his recent post, Professor Moran then proceeds to enumerate ten items of evidence listed by Barry Arrington in a post titled, Astonishingly Stupid Things Atheists Say, before throwing the floor open for discussion. According to Larry Moran, none of the items below counts as evidence – let alone good evidence – for the existence of God, or a supernatural reality:

  • The fine tuning of the universe.
  • The moral sense.
  • The fact that a natural universe cannot logically have a natural cause.
  • The fact that there is something instead of nothing.
  • The overwhelming odds against the Darwinian story being true (estimated at 10^-1018 by atheist Eugene Koonin).
  • The irreducible complexity of biological systems.
  • The vast amounts of complex computer-like code stored in DNA.
  • The miracles that have been reported throughout history.
  • My subjective self-awareness.
  • The fact that we do not even have plausible speculations to account for the origin of life.

In this post, I won’t be saying much about arguments for God based on the moral sense and subjective self-awareness, because (a) in my experience, attempting to convince atheists of God’s existence on the basis of these arguments is a waste of time, and (b) the arguments need to be formulated very carefully in order for them to work. I”ll just say a little about these arguments, at the end.

That leaves eight arguments, which I’ll address in my own order. I”ll begin with the scientific arguments.

The fine-tuning of the universe (Argument 1)

I’ve written a lot on the fine-tuning argument, and my recent post, Professor Krauss Objects, explains why I think that the various scientific objections to the argument – including the multiverse hypothesis – all fail miserably. I’m not going to repeat myself here. But I will say that anyone who could read Dr. Robin Collins’ essay, essay entitled, The Teleological Argument: An Exploration of the Fine-Tuning of the Universe (in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, edited by William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland, 2009, Blackwell Publishing Ltd.), and say that there is no evidence for God is really being rather uncharitable.

I might also mention that the late Christopher Hitchens, who was a self-described anti-theist, had a healthy respect for the argument from fine-tuning. In a post titled, Fine Tuning the Multiverse Theory, Christian apologist Peter May narrates the story of an amicable discussion between the late Christopher Hitchens and pastor Douglas Wilson, after one of their debates:

Hitchens raised the question as to which was the strongest argument used against atheists and he had no difficulty in identifying it. “The fine-tuning argument we all agree is the most intriguing. It is not trivial – we all say that.” Here he is clearly speaking for his New Atheist friends. Hitchens is emphatic and repeats the point, “We all agree about that.

Christopher Hitchens considered the fine-tuning argument to be the best evidence for God, and he also regarded it as intriguing – even if he himself was not convinced by it. Professor Moran, on the other hand, thinks that the argument doesn’t even deserve to be called “evidence,” since he writes: “I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.” I’ll let my readers judge whether Professor Moran is being unreasonably fussy, when it comes to what qualifies as “evidence.”

The origin of life (Arguments 5 and 10)

In his post, Barry Arrington refers to the work of evolutionary biologist Dr. Eugene Koonin, whose peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15, is available online. Using a “toy model” which makes some very generous assumptions, Dr. Koonin estimates that the odds of even a very basic life-form – a coupled replication-translation system – emerging in the observable universe are 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes. Dr. Koonin evades this difficulty by positing a multiverse – a “solution” which fails on no less than five grounds, which I discussed in detail in my recent post, Professor Krauss Objects.

Dr. Koonin’s paper passed a panel of four reviewers, including one from Harvard University, who wrote:

In this work, Eugene Koonin estimates the probability of arriving at a system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution and comes to a cosmologically small number…;

The context of this article is framed by the current lack of a complete and plausible scenario for the origin of life. Koonin specifically addresses the front-runner model, that of the RNA-world, where self-replicating RNA molecules precede a translation system. He notes that in addition to the difficulties involved in achieving such a system is the paradox of attaining a translation system through Darwinian selection. That this is indeed a bona-fide paradox is appreciated by the fact that, without a shortage [of] effort, a plausible scenario for translation evolution has not been proposed to date. There have been other models for the origin of life, including the ground-breaking Lipid-world model advanced by Segrè, Lancet and colleagues (reviewed in EMBO Reports (2000), 1(3), 217–222), but despite much ingenuity and effort, it is fair to say that all origin of life models suffer from astoundingly low probabilities of actually occurring

…[F]uture work may show that starting from just a simple assembly of molecules, non-anthropic principles can account for each step along the rise to the threshold of Darwinian evolution. Based upon the new perspective afforded to us by Koonin this now appears unlikely. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Think about that. A leading evolutionary biologist has calculated that the odds of even a very basic life-form – a coupled replication-translation system – emerging in the observable universe are 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes. To avoid the theistic implications of his argument, he posits a multiverse – a solution which, as I’ve argued, is shot through with holes. And Professor Moran thinks this doesn’t even constitute evidence for God’s existence, let alone proof? Frankly, I’m gobsmacked.

I’d also like to quote from an interview with Anthony Flew, who was arguably the leading philosophical atheist of the 20th century, and who converted to deism in 2004, when he was 81. Here’s a short excerpt from a 2004 interview between Flew and Christian philosopher Gary Habermas:

HABERMAS: … Which arguments for God’s existence did you find most persuasive?

FLEW: I think that the most impressive arguments for God’s existence are those that are supported by recent scientific discoveries. I’ve never been much impressed by the kalam cosmological argument, and I don’t think it has gotten any stronger recently. However, I think the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it.

HABERMAS: So you like arguments such as those that proceed from big bang cosmology and fine tuning arguments?

FLEW: Yes…

HABERMAS: So of the major theistic arguments, such as the cosmological, teleological, moral, and ontological, the only really impressive ones that you take to be decisive are the scientific forms of teleology?

FLEW: Absolutely. It seems to me that Richard Dawkins constantly overlooks the fact that Darwin himself, in the fourteenth chapter of The Origin of Species, pointed out that his whole argument began with a being which already possessed reproductive powers. This is the creature the evolution of which a truly comprehensive theory of evolution must give some account. Darwin himself was well aware that he had not produced such an account. It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.

Finally, I’d like to quote the testimony of Professor Richard Smalley (1943-2005), winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Towards the end of his life, Dr. Richard Smalley became an Old Earth creationist, after reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist). Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

“Puts the evolutionary model to death”?! These are pretty strong words for a Nobel scientist. And yet, despite this testimony from a Nobel Prize-winning chemist, Professor Moran thinks that there is no evidence for the existence of a supernatural Designer of life.

The irreducibility of biochemical systems (Argument 6)

I’d like to quote from ID advocate Casy Luskin’s article, Leading Biologists Marvel at the “Irreducible Complexity” of the Ribosome, but Prefer Evolution-of-the-Gaps over at Evolution News and Views. The article is about a roundtable symposium on the origin of life, entitled, “Life: What A Concept!”, which was held in 2008 and hosted by John Brockman. The participants included some very prominent people in the field of origin of life research and genomics, such as Freeman Dyson, J. Craig Venter, George Church, Robert Shapiro, Dimitar Sasselov, and Seth Lloyd. Here’s what George Church, Professor of Genetics at Harvard Medical School and Director of the Center for Computational Genetics, had to say about the complexity of the ribosome:

The ribosome, both looking at the past and at the future, is a very significant structure — it’s the most complicated thing that is present in all organisms. Craig does comparative genomics, and you find that almost the only thing that’s in common across all organisms is the ribosome. And it’s recognizable; it’s highly conserved. So the question is, how did that thing come to be? And if I were to be an intelligent design defender, that’s what I would focus on; how did the ribosome come to be?

Craig Venter then suggested that by sequencing the genomes of more organisms, scientists might be able to reconstruct a primitive precursor ribosome, but Church was doubtful:

But isn’t it the case that, if we take all the life forms we have so far, isn’t the minimum for the ribosome about 53 proteins and 3 polynucleotides? And hasn’t that kind of already reached a plateau where adding more genomes doesn’t reduce that number of proteins?

The conversation that ensued reveals the frustration of the participants, who are all convinced naturalists. Interestingly, the term “irreducible complexity” crops up:

VENTER: Below ribosomes, yes: you certainly can’t get below that. But you have to have self-replication.

CHURCH: But that’s what we need to do — otherwise they’ll call it irreducible complexity. If you say you can’t get below a ribosome, we’re in trouble, right? We have to find a ribosome that can do its trick with less than 53 proteins.

VENTER: In the RNA world, you didn’t need ribosomes.

CHURCH: But we need to construct that. Nobody has constructed a ribosome that works well without proteins.

VENTER: Yes.

SHAPIRO: I can only suggest that a ribosome forming spontaneously has about the same probability as an eye forming spontaneously.

CHURCH: It won’t form spontaneously; we’ll do it bit by bit.

SHAPIRO: Both are obviously products of long evolution of preexisting life through the process of trial and error.

CHURCH: But none of us has recreated that any.

SHAPIRO: There must have been much more primitive ways of putting together.

CHURCH: But prove it.

I think it’s fair to conclude that the irreducible complexity (as far as we can tell) of the ribsome constitutes powerful prima facie evidence for an Intelligent Creator of the first life.

The vast amounts of computer-like code stored in DNA (Argument 7)

Let me begin with a quote from agnostic Bill Gates. Nearly twenty years ago, he wrote:

Biological information is the most important information we can discover, because over the next several decades it will revolutionize medicine. Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.
(Gates, The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996 p. 228)

ID advocate Casey Luskin’s article, A Response to Dr. Dawkins’ “Information Challenge” (Part 1): Specified Complexity Is the Measure of Biological Complexity over at Evolution News and Views, contains a very interesting quote from New Atheist Professor Richard Dawkins:

… [t]he machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer engineering journal.
(River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, pg. 17 (New York: Basic Books, 1995).)

Dawkins himself believes that processes of random mutation and unguided selection generated the information in genes. But is he right? I’d like to conclude with a quote from an article in a creationist journal by CSIRO botanist Alex Williams, titled, Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism (Journal of Creation 21(3) 2007). Some of the material in the article (including the ENCODE findings on junk DNA) remains hotly contested, but when I came across the article eight years ago, I was electrified by this passage:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page… DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards… No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

Information that reads both backwards and forwards, and which is multi-layered and multi-dimensional? And meta-information too? As someone who worked for ten years as a computer programmer, I have to say that sounds like the work of an intelligent agent to me.

The argument from the total contingency of the cosmos (i.e. the modal cosmological argument, as opposed to the kalam cosmological argument) (Arguments 3 and 4)

In his original post, Barry Arrington cited as evidence for God the fact that fact that a natural universe cannot logically have a natural cause, as well as the fact that there is something instead of nothing.

Now, I imagine many atheists would have retorted, “Of course a natural universe doesn’t have a natural cause! That’s because it doesn’t have any cause! And as for why there is something rather than nothing, that’s just a brute fact. For anything that exists – God included – you could always ask why it exists.” But these objections miss the underlying point that Barry Arrington was making: the universe is totally contingent. Absolutely nothing about the universe has to be the way it is. The laws could have been different, the initial conditions could have been different, and the entities populating it could have been different. A totally contingent reality, such as our universe, cries out for an explanation.

For those readers who are looking for a good introduction to the argument from the contingency of the cosmos, I would recommend Professor Robert Koons’ Western Theism lecture notes (lectures 2 to 10, and especially lectures 6 to 10), as well as Professor Paul Herrick’s highly readable article, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009).

For those who think they know what’s wrong with the argument, I would recommend Thomist philosopher Edward Feser’s excellent blog post, So you think you understand the cosmological argument? (July 16, 2011). A few highlights:

1. The argument does NOT rest on the premise that “Everything has a cause.”

Lots of people – probably most people who have an opinion on the matter – think that the cosmological argument goes like this: Everything has a cause; so the universe has a cause; so God exists. They then have no trouble at all poking holes in it. If everything has a cause, then what caused God? …

Here’s the funny thing, though. People who attack this argument never tell you where they got it from. They never quote anyone defending it. There’s a reason for that. The reason is that none of the best-known proponents of the cosmological argument in the history of philosophy and theology ever gave this stupid argument. Not Plato, not Aristotle, not al-Ghazali, not Maimonides, not Aquinas, not Duns Scotus, not Leibniz, not Samuel Clarke, not Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, not Mortimer Adler, not William Lane Craig, not Richard Swinburne. And not anyone else either, as far as I know.

2. “What caused God?” is not a serious objection to the argument.

The cosmological argument in its historically most influential versions is not concerned to show that there is a cause of things which just happens not to have a cause. It is not interested in “brute facts” – if it were, then yes, positing the world as the ultimate brute fact might arguably be as defensible as taking God to be… What [the argument] seeks to show is that if there is to be an ultimate explanation of things, then there must be a cause of everything else which not only happens to exist, but which could not even in principle have failed to exist

So, to ask “What caused God?” really amounts to asking “What caused the thing that cannot in principle have had a cause?” … or “What imparted a sufficient reason for existence to that thing which has its sufficient reason for existence within itself and did not derive it from something else?” And none of these questions makes any sense.

3. “Why assume that the universe had a beginning?” is not a serious objection to the argument.

The main reason this is a bad objection …is that most versions of the cosmological argument do not even claim that the universe had a beginning. Aristotelian, Neo-Platonic, Thomistic, and Leibnizian cosmological arguments are all concerned to show that there must be an uncaused cause even if the universe has always existed.

4. “No one has given any reason to think that the First Cause is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, etc.” is not a serious objection to the argument.

Aquinas in fact devotes hundreds of pages across various works to showing that a First Cause of things would have to be all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, and so on and so forth. Other Scholastic writers and modern writers like Leibniz and Samuel Clarke also devote detailed argumentation to establishing that the First Cause would have to have the various divine attributes.

5. “The argument doesn’t prove that Christianity is true” is not a serious objection to the argument.

No one claims that the cosmological argument by itself suffices to show that Christianity is true, that Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, etc. That’s not what it is intended to do.

6. “Science has shown such-and-such” is not a serious objection to (most versions of) the argument.

…[M]ost versions of the cosmological argument do not in any way depend on particular scientific claims. Rather, they start with extremely general considerations that any possible scientific theorizing must itself take for granted – for example, that there is any empirical world at all, or any world of any sort at all.

7. The argument is not a “God of the gaps” argument.

Since the point of the argument is precisely to explain (part of) what science itself must take for granted, it is not the sort of thing that could even in principle be overturned by scientific findings. For the same reason, it is not an attempt to plug some current “gap” in scientific knowledge…

The point is that the kind of criticism one might try to raise against [the argument] is simply not the kind that one might raise in the context of empirical science. It requires instead knowledge of metaphysics and philosophy more generally.

8. Hume and Kant did not have the last word on the argument. Neither has anyone else.

…I don’t think anyone who has studied the issue would deny that Elizabeth Anscombe presented a serious objection to Hume’s claim that something could conceivably come into existence without a cause. Nor is Anscombe by any means the only philosopher to have criticized Hume on this issue.

…Hume’s objection that the cosmological argument commits a fallacy of composition … assumes that the cosmological argument is concerned with explaining why the universe as a whole exists, and that is simply not true of all versions of the argument.

9. What “most philosophers” think about the argument is irrelevant.

The atheist philosopher of religion Quentin Smith maintains that “the great majority of naturalist philosophers have an unjustified belief that naturalism is true and an unjustified belief that theism (or supernaturalism) is false.” For their naturalism typically rests on nothing more than an ill-informed “hand waving dismissal of theism” which ignores “the erudite brilliance of theistic philosophizing today.” Thomists often emphasize that the argument of Aquinas’s On Being and Essence requires only the premise that something or other exists – a stone, a tree, a book, your left shoe, whatever.

Atheist Dan Linford, author of the blog article, How should one respond to the Argument from Contingency?, doesn’t think much of the sophomoric “Who made God?” objection, either:

This fails for a few different reasons.

First, we are talking about the argument from contingency. The argument from contingency argues that all of the contingent facts that there are require a non-contingent explanation. But any sort of non-contingent object that explains all of the contingent facts will not have an explanation for its existence beyond its non-contingency. It could not fail to exist.

Secondly, when we provide a scientific explanation E for some phenomenon x but we do not provide an explanation for E, often, this is not reason to reject E. For example, if we see a trail in a cloud chamber that curves a particular way in a magnetic field, an electron might be the best explanation of our observations, but it would be inappropriate to reject the electron-explanation if we were unable to answer what caused the electron. Likewise, if God is what explains the universe’s existence, yet we cannot explain God’s existence, this does not mean that we should reject theism.
Unfortunately, this last response has become quite popular since it was published in Dawkins’s God Delusion (it had previously appeared in Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not A Christian and in David Hume’s Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion). While it may be able to target some forms of the Cosmological Argument, it is not an appropriate response to the Argument from Contingency.

A better objection, argues Linford, is to ask the theist: “From whence did God’s reasons for creating the universe come?” If the reasons came from within God’s essence, then this means that God had no choice but to create, since God’s essence exists necessarily. But if they didn’t come from within God, then in creating the universe, God may have been acting freely, but He/She was also acting arbitrarily and capriciously. However, this objection has already been answered in Professor Paul Herrick’s highly readable article, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009):

…[W]e typically account for the free choices of others in terms of the reasons they have for their choices (along with their powers or capacities to implement those reasons), and that when we cite good reasons for a choice, along with adequate powers or capacities, we typically attain a rationally satisfying explanation for the choice, an explanation that makes sense of the choice and ends the questioning (with respect to the choice). Look and see for yourself: This is how we reach explanatory finality with respect to choices; this is how we make choices intelligible.

Now this is important: Unlike scientific explanations, which do cite sufficient conditions, notice that a personalistic explanation — an explanation of a choice — does not cite a causally sufficient condition for the choice. Common sense says that the fact that the father loves his children, that he knows how to make a sled, that he knows that a sled would be good for them, and so on, that does not in itself constitute a sufficient causal condition for his choice to build the sled; these factors do not completely cause him to build a sled, for (at least from the common-sense standpoint) we normally suppose that the father could have had those very same reasons and yet could have chosen not to act on them. Likewise, he could have had those same powers and could have chosen not to put them into effect. This is what we normally mean when we say that under the circumstances, he could have chosen otherwise. And this is why we normally suppose that the reasons and capacities of a chooser are not in themselves sufficient for the choice; we suppose that by themselves they do not guarantee that the choice actually gets made. Indeed, isn’t this why we give the father moral credit for making the choice — because he didn’t have to, that is, under the circumstances, he could have stayed inside to watch TV instead? Again, a personalistic explanation explains a choice not by citing a sufficient condition for the choice, but by making sense of the choice (by making the choice rationally intelligible), and it does this by making sense of the choice in terms of good reasons.

No evidence for God, you say? I can only ask: what is your alternative hypothesis?

Miracles (Argument 8)

Finally, we come to miracles. Because miracles are events that take place in the world, the investigation of miracles certainly falls within the purview of science.

The philosophical arguments against the possibility and/or credibility of miracles, have been dealt with by Dr. Timothy McGrew in his article, Miracles in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, so I won’t waste time on them here.

Professor Moran will want to see good evidence of miracles, so I’ll confine myself to one case: the 17th century Italian saint, Joseph of Cupertino, who was seen levitating well above the ground and even flying for some distance through the air, on literally thousands of occasions, by believers and skeptics alike. The saint was the phenomenon of the 17th century. Those who are curious might like to have a look at his biography by D. Bernini (Vita Del Giuseppe da Copertino, 1752, Roma: Ludovico Tinassi and Girolamo Mainardi). The philosopher David Hume, who was notoriously skeptical of miracle claims, never even mentions St. Joseph of Cupertino in his writings. Funny, that.

The evidence for St. Joseph’s flights is handily summarized in an article, The flying saint (The Messenger of Saint Anthony, January 2003), by Renzo Allegri.

The earthly existence of Friar Joseph of Cupertino was rich in charismatic gifts. However, the phenomenon which attracted the most attention occurred during his disconcerting ecstasies. Chronicles recount, as we have already said, that he need only hear the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint before going into an ecstasy. He used to let out a wail and float in the air, remaining suspended between heaven and earth for hours. An inadmissible phenomenon for our modern mentality.

“To doubt is understandable,” Fr. Giulio Berettoni, rector of the Shrine of St. Joseph of Cupertino in Osimo tells me “but it isn’t justifiable. If we take a serious look at the saint’s life from a historical point of view, then we see that we cannot question his ecstasies. There are numerous witness accounts. They began to be documented in 1628, and this continued until Joseph’s death in 1663, i.e. for 35 years. In certain periods, the phenomenon is recorded to have taken place more than once a day. It has been calculated that Joseph’s ‘ecstatic flights’ took place at least 1,000 to 1,500 times in his lifetime, perhaps even more, and that they were witnessed by thousands of people. They were the phenomenon of the century. They were so sensational and so public that they attracted attention from curious people from all walks of life, Italians and foreigners, believers and unbelievers, simple folk, but also scholars, scientists, priests, bishops and cardinals. They continued to occur in every situation, in whatever church in which the saint prayed or celebrated Mass. It is impossible to doubt such a sensational and public phenomenon which repeated itself over time. It is also worth noting that these events occurred in the seventeenth century, the time of the Inquisition. Amazing events, miracles and healings were labelled magic and the protagonists ended up undergoing a trial by the civil and religious Inquisition. In fact, St. Joseph of Cupertino underwent this very fate because of his ecstasies. But he was subjected to various trials without ever being condemned; final proof that these are sensational events, but also real, extraordinary and concrete facts.” (Emphases mine – VJT.)

In view of the fact that miracle claims can be found in many different religions, it would be imprudent to cite St. Joseph’s levitations and flights in support of any one particular religion. But miracles like this, which could be prompted by St. Joseph’s hearing – the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint – certainly constitute evidence for God’s existence. Professor Moran may or may not be persuaded by such evidence, but evidence it certainly is. In the meantime, he might like to have a look at an article by Dr. Michael Grosso, entitled, Hume’s Syndrome: Irrational Resistance to the Paranormal (Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 22, No. 4, pp. 549–556, 2008).

Finally, I should mention the Resurrection of Jesus, of which former atheist Anthony Flew (who nevcer accepted Christianity) declared in 2004: “The evidence for the resurrection is better than for claimed miracles in any other religion. It’s outstandingly different in quality and quantity, I think, from
the evidence offered for the occurrence of most other supposedly miraculous events.” He then adds that he thinks this evidence can be discredited, since we lack “evidence from anyone who was in Jerusalem at the time, who witnessed one of the allegedly miraculous events, and recorded his or her testimony immediately after the occurrence of that allegedly miraculous event.” Nevertheless, even Flew acknowledges that there is evidence for this miraculous event – he just doesn’t happen to think it’s very powerful evidence.

The moral sense

Atheists are fond of claiming that we don’t need God in order to be moral, because we have an independent guide: the Golden Rule. But although the Golden Rile allows us to distinguish good from evil in most situations, it cannot define the meaning of good and evil. For the Rule itself can only bind us if there are certain things which are objectively good for us as human beings – for instance, food, knowledge and companionship. In the absence of objective goods, the Rule degenerates into a pathetic exhortation to respect people’s subjective preferences – which invites the obvious riposte, “Why should I?” There is no reason why I should respect an individual’s subjective preferences – after all, we don’t give cocaine to drug addicts. Natural law is the only sensible foundation on which an atheist can build morality. But such an ethic only works if we treat Nature Herself as normative. The Golden Rule, taken by itself, cannot tell me whether it is morally permissible for me to change my nature by transforming myself into, say, a hyper-intelligent, hyper-sentient cyborg who is nonetheless devoid of empathy (and hence no longer bound by the Golden Rule). Only if we take as a given the fact that this is God’s world, can we view our natural ends as ethically normative, and as objective goods which we tamper with at our peril. In other words, we need to foster belief in God in order to cultivate true respect for Nature.

My subjective self-awareness

The point I’d like to make here is that from a purely naturalistic standpoint, the behavior which promotes survival in humans and other animals could have evolved, regardless of whether they were sentient or not. Currently, there is no conclusive scientific evidence showing that any non-human animals are conscious – a point which is explicitly acknowledged by Marian Stamp Dawkins, Professor of Animal Behavior and Mary Snow Fellow in Biological Sciences, Somerville College, Oxford University. Marian Dawkins is herself sympathetic to the view that a large number of animals may be conscious. Nevertheless, she writes:

“[F]rom a scientific view, we understand so little about animal consciousness (and indeed our own consciousness) that to make the claim that we do understand it, and that we now know which animals experience emotions, may not be the best way to make the case for animal welfare. Anthropomorphism (seeing animals as just like humans) and anecdote were assuming a place in the study of animal consciousness that, it seemed to me, leaves the whole area very vulnerable to being completely demolished by logical argument…

It is, perhaps, not a comfortable conclusion to come to that the only scientific view of consciousness is that we don’t understand how it arises, nor do we know for certain which animals are conscious.
(Marian Stamp Dawkins, Professor of Animal Behavior and Mary Snow Fellow in Biological Sciences, Somerville College, Oxford University, writing in an online article entitled, Convincing the Unconvinced That Animal Welfare Matters, The Huffington Post, 8 June 2012.)

In her recently published book, Why Animals Matter: Animal consciousness, animal welfare, and human well-being (Oxford University Press, 2012), Professor Dawkins discusses the different issues relating to animal consciousness. Throughout the discussion, she maintains a skeptical outlook, because the scientific evidence is “indirect” (p. 111) and that “there is no proof either way about animal consciousness and that it does not serve animals well to claim that there is.” (p. 112). Summarizing the data surveyed, she writes:

The mystery of consciousness remains. The explanatory gap is as wide as ever and all the wanting in the world will not take us across it. Animals and plants can ‘want’ very effectively with never a hint of consciousness, as we can see with a tree wanting to grow in a particular direction. Preference tests, particularly those that provide evidence that animals are prepared to pay ‘costs’ to get what they want, are perhaps the closest we can get to what animals are feeling, but they are not a magic entry into consciousness. They do not solve the hard problem for us because everything that animals do when they make choices or show preferences or even ‘work’ to get what they want could be done without conscious experience at all. We have seen (Chapters 4 and 5) just how much we humans do unconsciously and how powerful our unconscious minds are in making decisions and even in having emotions. What is good enough for us may well be good enough for other species.

… The similarity between the behavioral responses of animals and humans to such drugs make it tempting to assume that because the behavior is similar, the conscious experiences must be similar too. Of course they may be, but there is no more ‘must’ about it than in the claim that animals ‘must’ consciously experience thirst before they drink or ‘must’ consciously experience hunger while they are searching for food. They may well do so, as we saw in Chapter 8. But there is no must about it. Animal bodies have evolved by natural selection to restore imbalances of food and water and to repair wounds and other kinds of damage. Neither food deprivation nor water deprivation, nor the symptoms of inflamed joints, are necessarily accompanied by any conscious experiences at all, although they may be. Just as our wounds heal up without any conscious intention on our part and we like certain foods without knowing why, so other animals, too, have a variety of mechanisms, for repairing and restoring their bodies to proper working order. Preference and choice and ‘what animals want’ are part of those mechanisms. They may well be accompanied by conscious experiences. But then again, they may not be. Once again, our path to finding out the answer is blocked by the implacable, infuriating obstacle known as the hard problem.” (pp. 171-174)

Professor Marian Dawkins concludes that since at the present time, scientists don’t know which (if any) animals are conscious, it is better for animal welfare advocates to refuse to commit themselves on the question of which animals are conscious: “… it is much, much better for animals if we remain skeptical and agnostic [about consciousness] … Militantly agnostic if necessary, because this keeps alive the possibility that a large number of species have some sort of conscious experiences … For all we know, many animals, not just the clever ones and not just the overtly emotional ones, also have conscious experiences.” (p. 177)

Viewed from a naturalistic perspective, the existence of consciousness is a surprising fact – one which we have no reason to expect. From a theistic perspective, on the other hand, it makes perfect sense: one would expect a personal Creator to make beings who were capable of knowing and loving their Creator, if He were going to make a world at all. Since each of us possesses not only awareness but also subjective self-awareness, we can apply apply Bayesian logic and deduce that the existence of God is highly probable, unless it can be shown that God’s existence has a very low a priori probability, in the first place. Now, if a skeptic wants to argue that, then they are welcome to do so, but in that case, the onus is on them to put forward a case against God.

Summary

In this post, we have looked at several lines of argument which point to the conclusion that God exists. Leading scientific and philosophical atheists have acknowledged that these arguments count as evidence, even if they remain unpersuaded by this evidence. I can only conclude that Professor Moran’s recent claim that there is absolutely no evidence for God or the supernatural flies in the face of what intelligent, open-minded atheists have to say on the subject. Professor Moran is obviously an intelligent man, but I wonder if he is as open-minded as he claims to be.

What do readers think? Is there any evidence for God?

Comments
Hi JimFit,
I mean that electrochemical reactions are the same everywhere, calling our thoughts electrochemical reactions you imply that in Nature every electrochemical reaction is a thought.
No, this doesn't follow. Sorry Jim but I don't think you have any understanding of philosophy of mind. I would suggest you read some other sources. I only looked at a few of your links, but none of them argued for dualism, theism, or anything else you believe in. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 27, 2015
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Hi Box,
Now, we have arrived at the next question: can there be in existence a physical law – which is (in your own words) induced from observation and descriptive – if physical entities to which the law pertains do not exist?
Instead of attempting to back me into a corner with your Socratic questions, please save us both some time and just say what you think and we can debate it. You have once again revealed a deep confusion regarding what a "law" is, vs. the natural entities and events that laws describe. Entities and events exist in nature. Laws are what people think up to describe them. If you understood this, you would not ask if a "law" could exist before the universe began. As I've explained endlessly, a "law" is something that human beings think up, and human beings did not exist before the universe began, so how exactly could this law "exist" before the universe began? Now of course you say, "Aha! I told you so! The law didn't exist before the universe began, and so it couldn't have been violated!" And I say: GOOD GRIEF, you haven't listened to a single thing I've said. We humans come up with provisional laws of physics (all scientific conclusions are always provisional), and then continually test them see if they are broken under various conditions, and these conditions may be in the past or they may be in the present. Get it? It just doesn't make sense to ask if the LAW existed sometime in the past. So, if one was to say that the law of conservation was violated at the Big Bang, they would be saying the following: 1) Human beings have thought of a law called the Law of Mass/energy conservation 2) This law seems to hold invariably in all in ordinary circumstances 3) It may be violated when applied to the entire universe (because its expansion, red shift energy loss, for example) 4) It may also have been violated if mass/energy was created at the Big Bang. I am sincerely hoping you now understand this simple point. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 27, 2015
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RDFish
Because regularities are not components of laws – they are what laws are about. They are the referrents of the laws we invent.
Finally, you understand that laws are descriptions about regularities in nature. The word, "invent," though is a little too facile, as I will explain later.
Huh? Conservation laws are limitive laws – like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, or the Pauli exclusion principle. They describe things that can NOT happen, not what MUST happen. Conservation of Mass/energy is induced from our observations of uncountable situations in which it is NEVER observed that mass/energy is created or destroyed.
So you think that the law of gravity is about what "cannot happen" or "must not happen?" Interesting. "Newton's law of universal gravitation states that any two bodies in the universe attract each other with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them." It doesn't seem like that law is about what cannot happen or what must not happen. It would appear that it is about what must happen. (Stay tune for RD's latest claim that he has been misunderstood or misrepresented.)
Oh good grief – you think I meant that when somebody makes up some law it somehow becomes true?
No. A subjectivist is someone who tries to remake reality according to own personal wishes. A good example would be RDFish, who thinks that causality submits to his personal preferences and operates only when he wants it to operate. Hence, for RDFish, causality need not apply to the universe. Or, someone like RDFish, who thinks that creating mass/energy violates mass/energy. Let the universe be what I want it to be. Oh yes, and never speak of a first cause. Or, someone like RDFish, who says that "something from nothing is the same as "ex-nihilo creation." That's right, folks, he did say that. That is subjectivism.
Let’s give it a try: I hereby decree the law “What goes down must come up”. Testing it now… hey, it doesn’t seem to work!?! Objectivism must be true after all! Hahahahahahahahahaha
You seem to be imploding.
It is just amazing that StephenB mistook what I meant. I said that Laws are made up by human beings, and he thought that meant human beings decide how the universe operates.
It seems that everyone misunderstands RD. I wonder why that might be. Perhaps that it is because RD doesn't understand himself. A law is our subjective description of objective regularities that occur in nature. Subjectivism is a philosophy--RD's philosophy.
What it means, of course, is that scientists make up laws that they THINK will describe the universe reliably, and then we do experiments and observations to see if they are right or not.
Not quite. Physical laws are conclusions in the form of a summary based on experiments and observations that become accepted by the scientific community. It's not just something that is "made up" or "invented." The word "law," after all, was chosen for a reason, indicating something that admits of no exceptions. "a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present. "the second law of thermodynamics"
It is fascinating to see how StephenB’s mind works. Since he thinks that God invented the physical laws of the universe, it made him completely misunderstand the obvious point that I made. His whole understanding of the world is skewed by this idea that there is some divine Lawmaker writing down laws that control how gravity works, and electricity, and so on.
Insofar as God is a lawmaker, He certainly does not "write down" physical laws, which are not made of matter (surprise, RD, physical laws don't have weight or size and are not extended in space). They are ways of making things happen by way of secondary causes. Clearly, though, the existence of laws that regulate the behavior of matter, or are at least associated with that regulation, must be explained. RD does not think they need to be explained, or that causal explanations should always be respected (when he would prefer not to have them around). Hence, he doesn't think that the law of matter/energy conservation needed to be caused. For RD, it could just as easily have "poofed into existence." Or, perhaps he thinks that the law of conservation is eternal. He is afraid to tell us. That is subjectivism. It doesn't submit to scrutiny---but oh, how it loves to scrutinize.StephenB
February 26, 2015
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I don’t know what you mean here.
*What difference there is in electrochemical reactions in nature from humans? * I mean that electrochemical reactions are the same everywhere, calling our thoughts electrochemical reactions you imply that in Nature every electrochemical reaction is a thought. If you find what chemicals take place in our brain and replicate them you will create thoughts according to your logic.
Physicalist theories of mind generally hold that neural activities do not precede thoughts, but rather that they comprise them.
So immaterial thoughts affect the material brain.
In some sense we do think all the time, but we are not consciously aware of most of our thoughts.
So consciousness precedes our thoughts aka our electrochemical reactions, that's why we are aware of them, that's dualism
If determinism is true then antecedent events determine our thoughts. In any case it is certainly “we” who control our thoughts – who else would be responsible?
For you to control your thoughts it means that you precede your thoughts and that's dualism, if we are what the brain is we wouldn't be able to do that.
It’s just that when physicalists say “we control our thoughts” they mean that we are physical systems that control themselves, rather than an immaterial soul that somehow operates our bodies.
How can you control something when you don't have free will? To control your brain you need a consciousness that precedes the brain.
I don’t know what you mean here.
I mean that if our brains determine everything then brains would be identical like 2 pcs but our brains change according to our will, if i decide to be a mathematician i will end up with a structurally different brain.. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26925271 The plasticity of the brain is a fact that materialism cannot solve.
First, “materialism” is a metaphysical position regarding ontology, not a scientific theory. Second, dualism does not solve problems such as these either. Third, there is no contradiction between brain plasticity, or placebo effects, and physicalism, your video notwithstanding.
I am happy that you recognize Materialism as metaphysical. Dualism just makes the claim that consciousness preceeds Materialism and we have evidence for this now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB7d5V71vUE Third of course there is contradiction between brain plasticity and physicalism. If i support that my arms chose to get some exercise and that's why i have muscles now i will be wrong since my arms doesn't have conscious thoughts, i chose to excersise my arms to have muscles not my arms. The brain is just another organ not the source of Consciousness. Quantum Enigma Observation in Quantum Mechanics and the 'Collapse of the Wavefunction' http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1961ZPhy..161..454J http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.47.777 http://philoscience.unibe.ch/documents/TexteHS10/bell1964epr.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7138/full/446866a.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvMx1baJwpA http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1026096313729 http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529 http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2007/apr/20/quantum-physics-says-goodbye-to-reality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nttB3Wze3Y8 http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9903047 http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim-scully/kim-scully-web.htm http://arxiv.org/abs/1106.4481 http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20600-quantum-magic-trick-shows-reality-is-what-you-make-it.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiNJRh2fxY8 http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.6578 http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070416/full/news070416-9.html http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.5294 http://www.pnas.org/content/108/4/1256.abstract http://meetings.aps.org/Meeting/MAR07/Event/57254 http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v7/n5/full/nnano.2012.34.html http://www.livescience.com/19268-quantum-double-slit-experiment-largest-molecules.html http://arxiv.org/abs/0909.1469 http://www.nature.com/news/2011/050411/full/news.2011.210.html http://www.wired.com/2009/09/quantum-entanglement/ http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100317/full/news.2010.130.html http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0801/0801.0337.pdfJimFit
February 26, 2015
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RDFish,
RDFish: if the law is stated as “each player moves a piece only if the other player moved previously”, then IF the other player hadn’t moved a piece previously (perhaps in another game?), then this law would be violated on the first move.
Thank you for answering my question. However I would also like you to respond on my follow up question, which I offered to you several times before. Here in its entirety:
Is it reasonable to state that the law of alternation is violated by the first move of the game? Or is it more accurate to say that at the moment the game started – during the completion of the first move – the law of alternation was not yet in effect. IOW that the law of alternation came into effect at the moment the first move was completed?
**now before you answer please don’t run off about whether it is an apt analogy or not with natural law. Or how confused I am. We can discuss all that later. Please focus on the law of alternation and chess.**
Box: REGULARITIES among physical things – (which we formulate as laws) – do not exist prior to the coming into existence of those physical things, energy space and time – prior to the big bang?
RDFish: Regularities cannot occur among physical entities that do not exist, quite obviously.
Thank you for answering my question. Indeed they can obviously not occur if they don’t exist. Again, thank you. Now, we have arrived at the next question: can there be in existence a physical law – which is (in your own words) induced from observation and descriptive - if physical entities to which the law pertains do not exist?Box
February 26, 2015
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It is just amazing that StephenB mistook what I meant. I said that Laws are made up by human beings, and he thought that meant human beings decide how the universe operates. That is so incredibly weird. What it means, of course, is that scientists make up laws that they THINK will describe the universe reliably, and then we do experiments and observations to see if they are right or not. It is fascinating to see how StephenB's mind works. Since he thinks that God invented the physical laws of the universe, it made him completely misunderstand the obvious point that I made. His whole understanding of the world is skewed by this idea that there is some divine Lawmaker writing down laws that control how gravity works, and electricity, and so on. Wow! So interesting!!!RDFish
February 26, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: ”An idea that scientists have come up with.” SB: “Notice that he says nothing about the objective regularities in nature. It’s all subjective. It’s all about ideas.
And you are patently confused about this. Of course any scientist can write down any law that he or she wishes to. That doesn't make the law valid. We test the law using objective methods of science. There is nothing subjective about it.
Clearly, you didn’t include regularity in nature as a component of a physical law.
Because regularities are not components of laws - they are what laws are about. They are the referrents of the laws we invent.
“So, a law tells us about what we have “never observed.” There is nothing there about what we have observed.
Huh? Conservation laws are limitive laws - like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, or the Pauli exclusion principle. They describe things that can NOT happen, not what MUST happen. Conservation of Mass/energy is induced from our observations of uncountable situations in which it is NEVER observed that mass/energy is created or destroyed.
RDF: Of course anybody can make up whatever law they want – that has nothing to do with subjectivism. SB: It has everything to do with subjectivism. A subjectivist is someone who believes that our descriptions inform nature’s regularities. An objectivist is someone who believes that nature’s regularities inform our descriptions. Do you understand the difference?
Oh good grief - you think I meant that when somebody makes up some law it somehow becomes true? Hahahahahahahahahaha. I've said over and over and over and over again the law may well be completely ridiculous and fail every confirmation!!! Hahahahahahahahahaha Let's give it a try: I hereby decree the law "What goes down must come up". Testing it now... hey, it doesn't seem to work!?! Objectivism must be true after all! Hahahahahahahahahaha Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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Hi Box,
RDF: 5) Most importantly, do you agree that these laws of physics can be made up any time at all by human beings, and they are not “put into effect” at some point? No, I do not agree. It seems obvious to me that the laws are not in effect in situations where the corresponding physical phenomena are not in existence – e.g. prior to the big bang. It seems that we are in disagreement on this.
Ok, let's see if our disagreement is conceptual or semantic. We need to make a distinction between when a law is "in effect" and when it is "applicable". 1) When you say a law is "in effect", I take it to mean that the law, at that time, determines or constrains the behavior of physical entities - just like the rules of a game determines or constrains the behavior of the players. So, if the conservation law was not "in effect", this would mean nothing would preclude mass/energy from being created. Once something (a "creator" according to StephenB) decided to "put the law into effect", however, mass/energy could no longer be created. The law, in this case, determines the way the universe works (or the way a game is played). 2) When I say a law is "applicable", I mean that it is relevant to the situation being investigated. For example, Kepler's Laws describes planetary motion, but they would not applicable if there were no planets. It would still be "in effect", however, in the sense that if some planet existed and were orbiting a star, it would move in an ellipse, sweeping out equal areas in equal times, etc. Likewise the conservation law declares that mass/energy can't be created or destroyed, but it is not "applicable" if there was no such thing as mass/energy in existence.
RDFish:6) Do you agree that these laws (like the conservation laws, or laws of motion, etc) do not determine the behavior of physical entities, but rather attempts to describe them? BOX: This is a very interesting question. I’m not sure it’s crucial to our discussion though.
I think it is the central point of our discussion. You and Stephen are confusing prescriptive and descriptive laws, and it reflects a very interesting difference in the way we think about the world.
RDFish: 6) Do you agree that these laws (like the conservation laws, or laws of motion, etc) do not determine the behavior of physical entities, but rather attempts to describe them? For now, I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that laws are ontologically distinct from physical entities.
I don't understand your comment about ontology here, or why you disagree.
Allow me to post some thoughts by Berlinski:...In a Landscape in which anything is possible, nothing is necessary. In a universe in which nothing is necessary, anything is possible. It is nothing that makes the electron follow any laws. Which, then, is it to be: God, logic, or nothing?
I certainly don't think any of these three answer the question! The laws of nature are axiomatic, induced from our experience. Why they exist the way they do is a great question, and currently without an answer.
Firstly, the law of alternation is not ‘made up’, but is based on an observation of a game of chess in progress instead. Secondly, where does it state that the law of alternation can only be violated until at least two turns have been taken? Why is that obvious?
Sorry yes, I'd forgotten how you worded your example. Yes the law of alternation, in your scenario, is induced rather than arbitrarily declared. And yes, if the law is stated as “each player moves a piece only if the other player moved previously”, then IF the other player hadn't moved a piece previously (perhaps in another game?), then this law would be violated on the first move.
>> This post is my final request for an answer. Another dodge and I will have no choice but to stop discussing with you.
It's hysterical that people accuse me of dodging, when the majority of my points go answered each time I post :-) I have not tried to dodge anything, Box - I'm trying very hard to understand what you are getting at.
The coming into existence of the rule of alternation is by observation , so it is descriptive as I have pointed out several times....It doesn’t require two events.
Again, you are absolutely correct in this: In your imaginary scenario, you have induced the rule from your observations and not made them up. And with the particular way you've worded your "law of alternation", the first move of a game would indeed represent a violation IF the other player had not made a move previously. And likewise, IF the net mass/energy of the universe was created in the Big Bang, then it would represent a violation of mass/energy conservation. I still have no idea how you think your analogy refutes this.
REGULARITIES among physical things – (which we formulate as laws) – do not exist prior to the coming into existence of those physical things, energy space and time – prior to the big bang? YES or NO? **this is my last attempt**
Is your great granddaughter's grandson in the Army? YES or NO????? The answer, of course, is NOT APPLICABLE!!!! I have tried my hardest to explain to you. Perhaps the explicit distinction I've explained between "applicable" and "in effect" above will help you understand. Regularities cannot occur among physical entities that do not exist, quite obviously. But it is confused to say this means that laws that describe these regularities are "in effect" or not "in effect". You can only say they may not be relevant or applicable if the entities the law refers to don't exist.
Interestingly this is wrong.
Interestingly, this is controversial - I've read about various ways the expanding may violate m/e conservation (red shifted radiation is one way), but there is no consensus about it. Here's a paper that's a few years old: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0810/0810.1629.pdf If conservation is violated by expansion somehow, that would be just be another example of people devising rules that describe the way things work under one set of conditions, but do not hold in other situations. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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F/N: Note how studiously RDF has avoided what appears in 170 and again in 203 above. KFkairosfocus
February 26, 2015
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RDFish
Your anger and fear are once again getting the best of you, and you are losing the thread and resorting to insults, sarcasm, and silly strawmen.
I am not angry at all and I am certainly not afraid. Let's take your definition of a law one step at a time and consider my response:
”An idea that scientists have come up with.”
SB: "Notice that he says nothing about the objective regularities in nature. It’s all subjective. It’s all about ideas. Clearly, you didn't include regularity in nature as a component of a physical law. Don't you think it belongs there? Most people would say that a physical law does, at least in part, pertain to something that is happening in nature. I know I do. Do you disagree?
..."that describes the fact that we never have, under any circumstances, observed such a phenomenon.”
SB: "So, a law tells us about what we have “never observed.” There is nothing there about what we have observed. Are you now saying that you have changed your mind? Do you no longer believe that a law is about what we have "never observed." If you didn't mean that, then what did you mean? It is, after all, what you said. In what way did I misrepresent you?
Of course anybody can make up whatever law they want – that has nothing to do with subjectivism.
It has everything to do with subjectivism. A subjectivist is someone who believes that our descriptions inform nature's regularities. An objectivist is someone who believes that nature's regularities inform our descriptions. Do you understand the difference? Everything you have said suggests that you are in the first camp. Since you are afraid to answer my questions, I have to assume that you already know that the holes in your arguments are large enough to drive a truck through.StephenB
February 26, 2015
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RDFish, REGULARITIES among physical things – (which we formulate as laws) – do not exist prior to the coming into existence of those physical things, energy space and time - prior to the big bang? YES or NO? **this is my last attempt** - - - - BTW ...
RDFish: The Law of Mass/energy conservation has never been observed to be violated, (...)
Interestingly this is wrong. The universe expands. Empty space has weight. In fact empty space has more energy than everything else in the universe combined. The space that gets added while the universe expands has exactly the same weight. IOW mass/energy is created as we speak - the law is violated as we speak.Box
February 26, 2015
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RDFish,
RDFish: You have neglected to respond to the points I’ve made. Let’s try again: 1) Do you agree that physical phenomena (events) cannot be “violated”?
I’ll be happy to agree if only I could understand what you mean by this question. Maybe this is your point, so probably we are in agreement.
RDFish: 2) But rather, only generalizations (i.e. “inductions”, “rules”, or “laws”) that people think up – such as the “Law of Conservation of Mass/energy” – can be violated?
Sure, laws can be violated by events that are not in accord with those laws.
RDFish: 3) Do you agree that when people make up a law of physics, that law is tested by observing the phenomena that the law deals with and seeing if the law is contradicted under some circumstance?
Yes, of course.
RDFish: 4) And that laws can be observed to hold in a vast number of circumstances, but then can be found to be violated under circumstances that are very different (for example, in situations dealing with high energies, high velocities, large masses, and so on)?
Yes I agree.
RDFish: 5) Most importantly, do you agree that these laws of physics can be made up any time at all by human beings, and they are not “put into effect” at some point?
No, I do not agree. It seems obvious to me that the laws are not in effect in situations where the corresponding physical phenomena are not in existence – e.g. prior to the big bang. It seems that we are in disagreement on this.
RDFish: 6) Do you agree that these laws (like the conservation laws, or laws of motion, etc) do not determine the behavior of physical entities, but rather attempts to describe them?
This is a very interesting question. I’m not sure it’s crucial to our discussion though. For now, I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that laws are ontologically distinct from physical entities. Allow me to post some thoughts by Berlinski:
Joel Primack, a cosmologist at the University of California, Santa Cruz, once posed an interesting question to the physicist Neil Turok: “What is it that makes the electrons continue to follow the laws.” Turok was surprised by the question; he recognized its force. Something seems to compel physical objects to obey the laws of nature, and what makes this observation odd is just that neither compulsion nor obedience are physical ideas. (p.132) In a Landscape in which anything is possible, nothing is necessary. In a universe in which nothing is necessary, anything is possible. It is nothing that makes the electron follow any laws. Which, then, is it to be: God, logic, or nothing? This is the question to which all discussions of the Land-scape and the Anthropic Principle are tending, and because the same question can be raised with respect to moral thought, it is a question with an immense and disturbing intellectual power. (p.133) [Berlinski, The Devil’s Delusion.]
However, I think I can make my point without the assumption that laws and physical entities are ontologically distinct.
Box: Is it reasonable to state that the law of alternation is violated by the first move of the game?
RDFish: Rules for games are “in effect” as soon as you start playing the game, of course. These rules are arbitrary – the inventor of the game can make up any rule they wish to. For your particular rule of alternation, it obviously isn’t possible to violate the rule until at least two turns have been taken.
Firstly, the law of alternation is not ‘made up’, but is based on an observation of a game of chess in progress instead. Secondly, where does it state that the law of alternation can only be violated until at least two turns have been taken? Why is that obvious?
The law of alteration: “each player moves a piece only if the other player moved previously”.
The first move is played without “the other player moved previously”. Isn’t that a violation of the rule of alternation? At least that is part of the question put to you … >> This post is my final request for an answer. Another dodge and I will have no choice but to stop discussing with you. <<
RDFish: So your analogy fails for two reasons, Box: 1) Rules we construct for games are completely unlike the laws rules that we construct in physics. The former are arbitrary and prescriptive (they tell people what actions are allowed or disallowed), while the latter are induced from experience and descriptive (they make predictions regarding what we will observe).
The coming into existence of the rule of alternation is by observation , so it is descriptive as I have pointed out several times.
RDFish: 2) Your example requires at least two events in order to violate your rule, while the Law of Conservation would be violated as soon as mass/energy is created or destroyed.
It doesn’t require two events. That is to say, I wouldn’t know why. And BTW even if it does is that really a problem?Box
February 26, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
So, the problem with God creating mass/energy is that the act of creation would violate the law of conservation.But that’s really not a problem, for a number of reasons.
Of course - I never have argued that the violation of conservation is some sort of argument against God. On the contrary, I've pointed out that presumably an omnipotent god would have no trouble violating any natural law. This is why I'm baffled by folks here insisting that if mass/energy was created in the Big Bang, then it shouldn't be considered to be a conservation violation. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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Hi JimFit,
What difference there is in electrochemical reactions in nature from humans?
I don't know what you mean here.
If electrochemical reactions precede what we call a thought...
Physicalist theories of mind generally hold that neural activities do not precede thoughts, but rather that they comprise them.
(A) Why we don’t think all the time?
In some sense we do think all the time, but we are not consciously aware of most of our thoughts.
If you can’t control our thoughts and are just reactions what determines them?
If determinism is true then antecedent events determine our thoughts. In any case it is certainly "we" who control our thoughts - who else would be responsible? It's just that when physicalists say "we control our thoughts" they mean that we are physical systems that control themselves, rather than an immaterial soul that somehow operates our bodies.
(B) Why our brains are the product of our thoughts?
I don't know what you mean here.
The plasticity of the brain is a fact that materialism cannot solve.
First, "materialism" is a metaphysical position regarding ontology, not a scientific theory. Second, dualism does not solve problems such as these either. Third, there is no contradiction between brain plasticity, or placebo effects, and physicalism, your video notwithstanding. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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Just to get grounded again, this is RDFish's point (121):
Now, either the stuff in the unvierse has always existed, or it began to exist, right? If it always existed, we have no need to hypothesize something that created it. If it began to exist, then conservation has obviously been violated at some point, and hypothesizing a god (a conscious being) that could create mass/energy, charge, momentum, etc. out of nothing doesn’t obviate that problem, since that too would represent a violation of conservation.
So, the problem with God creating mass/energy is that the act of creation would violate the law of conservation. But that's really not a problem, for a number of reasons.Silver Asiatic
February 26, 2015
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Ok, and if porcupines are animals, then all animals are porcupines. Are you StephenB’s logic coach, by any chance?
What difference there is in electrochemical reactions in nature from humans? If electrochemical reactions precede what we call a thought (A) Why we don't think all the time? If you can't control our thoughts and are just reactions what determines them? (B) Why our brains are the product of our thoughts? The plasticity of the brain is a fact that materialism cannot solve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70JimFit
February 26, 2015
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Hi Stephen, Your anger and fear are once again getting the best of you, and you are losing the thread and resorting to insults, sarcasm, and silly strawmen. Of course anybody can make up whatever law they want - that has nothing to do with subjectivism. Some laws might be perfectly ridiculous and be observed to be violated routinely, in which case we would say that the law has no scientific validity. The "red sky in the morning" law, for example, is not inviolate, and so is not considered to be a scientific law. What is relevant here is that the laws that scientists have induced and reliably confirmed under the ordinary circumstances of our experience have in the past been violated under extraordinary circumstances, requiring reformulation of those laws. For example, Newton's laws of motions were found to be perfectly predictive and never violated for hundreds of years, and are still routinely used in ordinary circumstances. Yet they are now known to be violated under extraordinary circumstances (high energies, high relative velocity, and so on) and have been replaced by relativistic laws (and that means the laws of the Theory of Relativity, not laws that are epistemically relative!!!!) The Law of Mass/energy conservation has never been observed to be violated, but if mass/energy was created in the Big Bang, that would by definition represent a violation of that law. It would not at all be the first time that a scientific law that has held in all known situations was violated in an extraordinary circumstance. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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Hi Box, You have neglected to respond to the points I've made. Let's try again: 1) Do you agree that physical phenomena (events) cannot be "violated"? But rather, only generalizations (i.e. "inductions", "rules", or "laws") that people think up - such as the "Law of Conservation of Mass/energy" - can be violated? 2) Do you agree that when people make up a law of physics, that law is tested by observing the phenomena that the law deals with and seeing if the law is contradicted under some circumstance? And that laws can be observed to hold in a vast number of circumstances, but then can be found to be violated under circumstances that are very different (for example, in situations dealing with high energies, high velocities, large masses, and so on)? 3) Most importantly, do you agree that these laws of physics can be made up any time at all by human beings, and they are not "put into effect" at some point? Do you agree that these laws (like the conservation laws, or laws of motion, etc) do not determine the behavior of physical entities, but rather attempts to describe them? It's important that we settle these in order to prevent further confusion. Now I will respond to your post.
RDFish: Here is your confusion on display. Laws in legal systems or games can be “put into effect”, or suspended, or rescinded. Natural laws are not like this. Instead, natural laws are (…) BOX: Why would I be confused?
I believe you are confused because you think of laws of physics as being like the rules of a game, or laws in a legal system, which can be "put into effect" at someone's discretion, rather than what these laws actually are, which are generalizations about phenomena we observe.
We are in fact talking about a law concerning a game, are we not?
The subject was whether or not it would be a violation of the Law of Conservation of Mass/energy for mass/energy to be created in the Big Bang. You brought up the analogy of a game in order to make some point.
You state that those laws can be put into effect and so forth.
Sure.
Is it reasonable to state that the law of alternation is violated by the first move of the game?
The law that you made up requires two different events in order to determine if it has been violated. So in that respect it obviously isn't a good analogy to the Law of Conservation of Mass/energy in physics, which would be violated immediately upon mass/energy being created or destroyed.
Or is it more accurate to say that at the moment the game started – during the completion of the first move – the law of alternation was not yet in effect.
Rules for games are "in effect" as soon as you start playing the game, of course. These rules are arbitrary - the inventor of the game can make up any rule they wish to. For your particular rule of alternation, it obviously isn't possible to violate the rule until at least two turns have been taken. So your analogy fails for two reasons, Box: 1) Rules we construct for games are completely unlike the laws rules that we construct in physics. The former are arbitrary and prescriptive (they tell people what actions are allowed or disallowed), while the latter are induced from experience and descriptive (they make predictions regarding what we will observe). 2) Your example requires at least two events in order to violate your rule, while the Law of Conservation would be violated as soon as mass/energy is created or destroyed. Now, scientist are not at all sure that mass/energy was in fact created in the Big Bang for various reasons (for example, because gravitational potential energy is a negative quantity which might cancel out the potential and kinetic energy of the mass), but the fact remains: Simply by the definition of the Conservation of Mass/energy, if mass/energy really was created in the Big Bang, that would by definition represent a violation of mass/energy conservation. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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F/N: I think 170 is still relevant, so here it is again: __________ >> 170 kairosfocus February 25, 2015 at 5:47 am Re RDF: Let’s look at the logic of:
RDF, 166: Both Box and StephenB are arguing that since there was no mass/energy before the Big Bang, then there was no Law of Mass/energy conservation before the Big Bang. Therefore, they reason, if mass/energy was created in the Big Bang, the Law of Conservation was not violated – because it was not yet in effect. I’ve pointed out that this is ridiculous, because to say “mass/energy was created” is to say “mass/energy conservation was violated” – they mean exactly the same thing.
Let us use some symbolisation, with t for timeline, W for the world and m/E[W(t)] standing for sum total mass/energy at timeline point t: 1: set m/E[W] = 0 at t = -1, and 2: allow t to proceed along a global cosmological timeline to t = 0, 1, 2 etc, in arbitrary units . . . say, Planck time units [with 0 the big bang and/or whatever initiation event one prefers], where 3: m/E[W(t)] = m/E[W(t+), imposing a global m/E conservation rule. The conclusion is, for all t = 0, 1, 2 . . . m/E[W(t)] = m/E[W(-1)] = 0 So, SB and Box are patently right. In a world with current mass and energy holding a large positive value . . . negative values not being available [per e = m*c^2 where m is positive or zero], AND having a beginning where m/E[W(beginning)] = 0, an external initiatory event that sets mass and energy to a non zero value is required. That is, a world with a beginning from a singularity is inherently contingent. And, we see a wider pattern to the law we observe at some t >> 0, perhaps 13.7 BY later. Namely, that we should distinguish world initiation from world continuation. The well-established broader law of mass-energy conservation we see reflects conditions post world-initiation. And indeed it is a commonplace of discussion of the big bang scenario, that our physics is post big bang. Let us observe Wiki:
The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model for the earliest known periods of the universe.[1][2][3] It states that the Universe was in a very high density state and then expanded.[4][5] If the known laws of physics are extrapolated beyond where they are valid there is a singularity. Modern measurements place this moment at approximately 13.8 billion years ago, which is thus considered the age of the universe.[6] After the initial expansion, the Universe cooled sufficiently to allow the formation of subatomic particles, and later simple atoms. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through gravity to form stars and galaxies. The Big Bang theory does not provide any explanation for the initial conditions of the Universe; rather, it describes and explains the general evolution of the Universe going forward from that point on.[4] Since Georges Lemaître first noted, in 1927, that an expanding universe might be traced back in time to an originating single point, scientists have built on his idea of cosmic expansion. While the scientific community was once divided between supporters of two different expanding universe theories, the Big Bang and the Steady State theory, accumulated empirical evidence provides strong support for the former.[7] In 1929, Edwin Hubble discovered indications that all galaxies are drifting apart at high speeds. In 1964, the cosmic microwave background radiation was discovered, which was crucial evidence in favor of the Big Bang model, since that theory predicted the existence of background radiation throughout the Universe before it was discovered. The known physical laws of nature can be used to calculate the characteristics of the Universe in detail back in time to an initial state of extreme density and temperature.[8][9][10]
One may speculate on a multiverse or a base world that gives rise to ours perhaps by quantum fluctuation etc, but such is effectively philosophy done while wearing lab coats and using the languages and symbols of mathematics and physics. But, it is not privileged as coming from empirical warrant and must learn to humbly sit at the table of comparative difficulties analysis among significant worldview options. KF>> _____________ See why there must be initiation before continuation and conservation, and why it cannot follow the same rules, so to speak of violation is not relevant. Especially as effects cannot happen before causes? KFkairosfocus
February 26, 2015
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Box
IOW those regularities – like the law of conservation – do not exist prior to the big bang?
RDFish
I’ve explained this endlessly now. Let me be as clear as I possibly can.
No, you dodged the question again, as you always do.
the Conservation Law is an idea that scientists have come up with that describes the fact that we never have, under any circumstances, observed such a phenomenon.
Let us examine this bizarre statement: ..."An idea that scientists have come up with." Notice that he says nothing about the objective regularities in nature. It's all subjective. It's all about ideas. (At least for now. This can change at any moment). ...."that describes the fact that we never have, under any circumstances, observed such a phenomenon." So, a law tells us about what we have "never observed." There is nothing there about what we have observed. (Again, this can change at any moment. Stay tuned). Isn't subjectivism fun?StephenB
February 26, 2015
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Box
Is it reasonable to state that the law of alternation is violated by the first move of the game? Or is it more accurate to say that at the moment the game started – during the completion of the first move – the law of alternation was not yet in effect. IOW that the law of alternation came into effect at the moment the first move was played?
This is an interesting analogy and an excellent question. RDFish will respond in one of two ways: [a] He will probably refuse to answer the question, but if he does, [b] He will say that it doesn't apply.StephenB
February 26, 2015
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RDFish #198,
Box: is it reasonable to state that the law of alternation is violated by the first move of the game? Or is it more accurate to say that at the moment the game started – during the completion of the first move – the law of alternation was not yet in effect.
RDFish: Here is your confusion on display. Laws in legal systems or games can be “put into effect”, or suspended, or rescinded. Natural laws are not like this. Instead, natural laws are (...)
Why would I be confused? We are in fact talking about a law concerning a game, are we not? You state that those laws can be put into effect and so forth. So why not answer my question, without assuming that I'm talking about something other (natural laws) then the subject at hand?Box
February 26, 2015
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Hi StephenB, Rather than respond to your increasingly bizarre "arguments" and even more bizarre insults, please refer to my response to Box @198 where I make your errors as clear as any reasonable person might want. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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Hi Box,
IOW those regularities – like the law of conservation – do not exist prior to the big bang?
I've explained this endlessly now. Let me be as clear as I possibly can. * There are two things under discussion here: (1) Mass/energy being created, and (2) Conservation Laws * As for the (1), mass/energy is something we can observe and measure, and the creation of mass/energy is something - a phenomenon - that we could potentially observe and measure, although we never have. * As for (2), the Conservation Law is an idea that scientists have come up with that describes the fact that we never have, under any circumstances, observed such a phenomenon. * You and StephenB are confused about (2). You see it as something real - a phenomenon - that exists in nature, when in fact it is just an idea that human beings came up with. In other words, you have made the error of reifying the Law of Conservation. StephenB has said that the law was created at by a "creator" at some point, and so before that the law didn't exist, as though a divine lawgiver wrote down the law and all of a sudden subatomic particles and forces were bound to operate according to this decree. I believe your understanding is similar to this. It is this confusion on your part that has been the issue of our recent posts.
RDFish: Mass/energy conservation is not a phenomenon, not an event, not something that can be observed. (…) This is not a phenomenon, quite obviously – it is in fact a generalization about the absence of a phenomenon.
This is correct - I've been saying this all along, over and over again.
The violation of a non-phenomenon, which is the generalization about the absence of a phenomenon, doesn’t sound like a big deal :)
Phenomena are not violated, box - that is just a non-sequitur. Laws may be violated, but not phenomena. Phenomena are things that happen in the world, not laws that can be violated. I really can't think of a way to make this any clearer to you.
Or is it more accurate to say that at the moment the game started – during the completion of the first move – the law of alternation was not yet in effect.
Here is your confusion on display. Laws in legal systems or games can be "put into effect", or suspended, or rescinded. Natural laws are not like this. Instead, natural laws are inductions (generalizations) that we come up with, and then we look at nature to see when these generalizations hold and when they don't. Nobody "puts them into effect" - they are not "in effect" at some particular time or other. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 26, 2015
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RDFish
That is ridiculous, as my example with dogs illustrated perfectly well. I suspect you are flailing because you know you have been wrong about every single point you’ve made in this thread.
Don't get so excited, RD. I was just pointing out that you run away from my questions. It is a fact that you do. Just saying that you are right and I am wrong doesn't really help you. You must present arguments.
I can’t even understand what you are saying here.
Well, of course. you don't. When confronted with a hard question, you pretend not to know what it means.
Is the Law of Red Sunrise something in nature that a creator created? No.
How, pray tell, would you know that? One minute you tell us that we know nothing at all about the situation before the big bang; the next minute you tell us, without warrant or a shred of evidence, that the Law of the Red Sunrise was definitely not created. One thing sure, the Law of the Red Sunrise (the regularity in nature) is completely independent of our definition of that law. (Of course, you haven't defined it, so you can now define it after the fact and say that I got it wrong. How sweet it is). This is what you do not understand, RD. The sun once started rising and setting, but the occasion of that event, or the law that governs it, had nothing to do with our definition of it. Nature doesn't care what you think about it.
Is the Law of Red Sunrise ever violated? Sure – every time there is a red sunrise and no storm that day.
Hmmm. ---First, you call it a "law" and then you say that it is routinely violated. I am beginning to understand why you never define your terms.
This is exactly the situation with the Law of Conservation – and all laws of physics. They are not phenomena in nature, they are things that human beings make up to try and explain and predict what happens in the world. They are not something in nature that was created by God – they are just ideas from human beings. And sometimes they can be violated.
Oh, so now they are "just ideas." So much for regularities in nature. In almost every comment, your subjectivism overrides your logic.
Aside from evading my questions and responses, and from blatantly mischaracterizing me, there really isn’t much you do. I obviously have said nothing of the sort; what I’ve said is that conservation is not something that “arrives” or gets “put into effect by a creator”. It is a generalization that people make about what we observe in nature.
I never mischaracterize you and never evade your questions. Now you have reduced your self to lying. The problem is you aren't consistent and often don't know what you are saying. First, you admit, when pressed, that conservation is a regularity in nature, but when I press you about that regularity, you change your tune and tell me that aa law is only a "generalization that people make." First you say that it is not a "phenomenon" and then you say that it is something that we "observe." Remarkable.
I have also made the self-evident point that the creation of mass/energy violates the principle that says mass/energy can’t be created. Duh.
You are the only person I know who can contradict himself twice in the same sentence: First, we know that you reject all self evident truths. You are on record as saying so. Second, you can't violate a principle by creating it, nor can it violate itself by simply coming to be even if it isn't created. It is logically impossible. SB: The principle of mass/energy conservation in nature can only be violated after it arrives, not as it arrives.
Principles do not “arrive”. They are authored by human beings. You are so very confused.
No, RD. I assure you that the confusion is all yours. Principles do occur in nature. Principle (second definition) "a fundamental source or basis of something." The problem is that you think that nature has no source or no basis. Indeed, you don't even think it had to be caused. You think everything is subjective. It isn't. Not everything is a definition. Some things actually exist independently of your subjective fantasies. Again, though, this is the way you do business. Notice how you completely evade the point: In fact, the regularities in nature did arrive with the big bang. In order to evade that point, you start laboring over something that doesn't matter.StephenB
February 26, 2015
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RDFish
And we discussed the everything we know if either is a composite of things or may be (even electrons or quarks). I don’t see the relevance.
A thing that is contingent is dependent on other things. This gives us a regress of causes. The universe cannot be both necessary and contingent.
You declare that thoughts are immaterial – more metaphysical speculation rather than science. Most scientists believe that thoughts are physical states of our brains.
There is no evidence that thoughts are physical things. Thoughts have no physical properties. So, until it can be shown otherwise, the best explanation is that thoughts are immaterial. Science is immaterial, logic is immaterial, mathematics is immaterial, language is immaterial, beauty is immaterial, dreams are immaterial. This can all be falsified by showing that these are physical things.
Whether there is anything else going on or not (and I am agnostic on that) there is certainly no science to suggest that thoughts are “immaterial things that have physical causality”.
What kind of science could conclude that something is immaterial? Do you think empirical science can observe immaterial entities?
But the important point here is really that just as you say, there is no agreement among physicists (let alone non-physicists!) regarding these deep questions, including how the universe began. Nobody knows – that is my point.
You claimed that the universe was surrounded by nothingness. You made this appear as if it was a scientific certainty. But as I showed, nobody knows what nothingness is. I was pointing to an inconsistency in your thought. You were willing to draw some conclusions about nothingness which is something science cannot comprehend. But you are unwilling to draw some conclusions about the origin of the universe or the existence of God because you feel these are things science cannot comprehend. That's not consistent. The idea of an eternal, necessary, non-contingent universe has a lot of problems. We'd have to accept many things that "just are that way" - blunt facts. The universe is finite and limited to a specific size and shape - for no other reason than "that's the way it is". The singularity just always existed. At one moment in time, the big bang occurred (after an infinite delay) - just because that's what happened. The universe has certain properties and is governed and shaped by laws and forces. It is comprised of a variety of things, some which come into existence others which disappear. The origin of these things would also simply be "the way it is". Then, there would have to be "nothing" outside of the universe, although nobody knows what nothing is. We'd have to say the universe "just is", even though we can observe it changing over time and moving to a future state, which would have already arrived if the universe was eternal. The alternative view is that there is a God who created the universe. With this, we solved the origin of laws, forces, matter, movement, change and the existence of things in themselves. We do not need to posit "nothingness" (which cannot produce anything), but rather the "fullness of being" which can confer existence on other things. So, we'd also have answers for the limitations of the universe and a beginning point as a moment of creation. We'd have a non-contingent, necessary being as the first cause of all other beings, and as the first mover of all sequences of causes. I understand that you prefer the idea that the universe is simply necessary and non-contingent. But I think that view leaves a lot more unanswered questions than does the idea that God exists as the creator of the universe.Silver Asiatic
February 26, 2015
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Silver Asiatic, Thank you. I agree that Me_Think answered it correctly in 171. - - Only now I notice that a couple of times I wrote "alteration" instead of "alternation". This is an obvious mistake on my part, hopefully my mistake didn't cause any confusion.Box
February 26, 2015
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Box Your law of alternation is a good analogy. Me_Think answered it correctly in 171Silver Asiatic
February 26, 2015
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RDFish, Let’s start anew. When observing a chess game in progress we observe that each player moves a piece only if the other player moved previously. From this we can formulate the law of alteration.
The law of alteration: “each player moves a piece only if the other player moved previously”.
Now it seems to me a separate matter to define when and how this law can be violated. It seems to me an odd thing to include in the very definition of the law itself examples of ways in which the law can be violated. So stuff like “twice in a row” or “moves a piece more than once” are not part of the law itself.
RDFish: Is there something ambiguous about “twice in a row”? Fine! The law of alternation is violated when one player moves a piece more than once without the other player moving a piece.”?
You are perfectly right of course that this is a fine example of a violation of the law of alternation. I just note that descriptions under which the law of alteration is violated are not part of the law itself. Which brings us to the problem of the FIRST MOVE. here is my question again:
is it reasonable to state that the law of alternation is violated by the first move of the game? Or is it more accurate to say that at the moment the game started – during the completion of the first move – the law of alternation was not yet in effect. IOW that the law of alternation came into effect at the moment the first move was played?
Box
February 26, 2015
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RDFish,
Box: Okay, so the REGULARITIES among physical things – which we formulate as laws – do not exist prior to the coming into existence of those physical things, energy space and time. IOW those regularities – like the law of conservation – do not exist prior to the big bang?
RDFish: I just answered this.
Would you be so kind to repeat your answer to my question, because I'm unable to locate it. - thank you StephenB #188 - -- -- edit: as a side note:
RDFish: Mass/energy conservation is not a phenomenon, not an event, not something that can be observed. (...) This is not a phenomenon, quite obviously – it is in fact a generalization about the absence of a phenomenon.
The violation of a non-phenomenon, which is the generalization about the absence of a phenomenon, doesn't sound like a big deal :)Box
February 26, 2015
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