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No evidence for God’s existence, you say? A response to Larry Moran

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Despite my disagreements with Professor Larry Moran over the years, I respect him as a fair-minded, intelligent and generally sensible person. Recently, however, he said something which can only be described as rather silly. In a post titled, Evidence for the existence of god(s), he wrote:

I am always on the lookout for evidence that some sort of god actually exists. The reason I’m an atheist is because I’ve never seen any evidence that’s the least bit convincing. I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.

Now, had Professor Moran merely remarked that he found the evidence for God’s existence less than compelling, or unsatisfactory, he would have had a leg to stand on. But he went much further: he declared it to be not in the least bit convincing, which can only mean that he sets its evidential value at zero. He then added: “I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.” The only conclusion I can draw is that Professor Moran really thinks there is no evidence for God. This interpretation is confirmed by a remark he makes in another post, where he declares that “[s]o far, the scientific way of knowing has uncovered no evidence of anything that exists outside of the natural world” (emphasis mine – VJT), although he allows that science may discover evidence of the supernatural, “at some time in the future.”

In his recent post, Professor Moran then proceeds to enumerate ten items of evidence listed by Barry Arrington in a post titled, Astonishingly Stupid Things Atheists Say, before throwing the floor open for discussion. According to Larry Moran, none of the items below counts as evidence – let alone good evidence – for the existence of God, or a supernatural reality:

  • The fine tuning of the universe.
  • The moral sense.
  • The fact that a natural universe cannot logically have a natural cause.
  • The fact that there is something instead of nothing.
  • The overwhelming odds against the Darwinian story being true (estimated at 10^-1018 by atheist Eugene Koonin).
  • The irreducible complexity of biological systems.
  • The vast amounts of complex computer-like code stored in DNA.
  • The miracles that have been reported throughout history.
  • My subjective self-awareness.
  • The fact that we do not even have plausible speculations to account for the origin of life.

In this post, I won’t be saying much about arguments for God based on the moral sense and subjective self-awareness, because (a) in my experience, attempting to convince atheists of God’s existence on the basis of these arguments is a waste of time, and (b) the arguments need to be formulated very carefully in order for them to work. I”ll just say a little about these arguments, at the end.

That leaves eight arguments, which I’ll address in my own order. I”ll begin with the scientific arguments.

The fine-tuning of the universe (Argument 1)

I’ve written a lot on the fine-tuning argument, and my recent post, Professor Krauss Objects, explains why I think that the various scientific objections to the argument – including the multiverse hypothesis – all fail miserably. I’m not going to repeat myself here. But I will say that anyone who could read Dr. Robin Collins’ essay, essay entitled, The Teleological Argument: An Exploration of the Fine-Tuning of the Universe (in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, edited by William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland, 2009, Blackwell Publishing Ltd.), and say that there is no evidence for God is really being rather uncharitable.

I might also mention that the late Christopher Hitchens, who was a self-described anti-theist, had a healthy respect for the argument from fine-tuning. In a post titled, Fine Tuning the Multiverse Theory, Christian apologist Peter May narrates the story of an amicable discussion between the late Christopher Hitchens and pastor Douglas Wilson, after one of their debates:

Hitchens raised the question as to which was the strongest argument used against atheists and he had no difficulty in identifying it. “The fine-tuning argument we all agree is the most intriguing. It is not trivial – we all say that.” Here he is clearly speaking for his New Atheist friends. Hitchens is emphatic and repeats the point, “We all agree about that.

Christopher Hitchens considered the fine-tuning argument to be the best evidence for God, and he also regarded it as intriguing – even if he himself was not convinced by it. Professor Moran, on the other hand, thinks that the argument doesn’t even deserve to be called “evidence,” since he writes: “I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.” I’ll let my readers judge whether Professor Moran is being unreasonably fussy, when it comes to what qualifies as “evidence.”

The origin of life (Arguments 5 and 10)

In his post, Barry Arrington refers to the work of evolutionary biologist Dr. Eugene Koonin, whose peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15, is available online. Using a “toy model” which makes some very generous assumptions, Dr. Koonin estimates that the odds of even a very basic life-form – a coupled replication-translation system – emerging in the observable universe are 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes. Dr. Koonin evades this difficulty by positing a multiverse – a “solution” which fails on no less than five grounds, which I discussed in detail in my recent post, Professor Krauss Objects.

Dr. Koonin’s paper passed a panel of four reviewers, including one from Harvard University, who wrote:

In this work, Eugene Koonin estimates the probability of arriving at a system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution and comes to a cosmologically small number…;

The context of this article is framed by the current lack of a complete and plausible scenario for the origin of life. Koonin specifically addresses the front-runner model, that of the RNA-world, where self-replicating RNA molecules precede a translation system. He notes that in addition to the difficulties involved in achieving such a system is the paradox of attaining a translation system through Darwinian selection. That this is indeed a bona-fide paradox is appreciated by the fact that, without a shortage [of] effort, a plausible scenario for translation evolution has not been proposed to date. There have been other models for the origin of life, including the ground-breaking Lipid-world model advanced by Segrè, Lancet and colleagues (reviewed in EMBO Reports (2000), 1(3), 217–222), but despite much ingenuity and effort, it is fair to say that all origin of life models suffer from astoundingly low probabilities of actually occurring

…[F]uture work may show that starting from just a simple assembly of molecules, non-anthropic principles can account for each step along the rise to the threshold of Darwinian evolution. Based upon the new perspective afforded to us by Koonin this now appears unlikely. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Think about that. A leading evolutionary biologist has calculated that the odds of even a very basic life-form – a coupled replication-translation system – emerging in the observable universe are 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes. To avoid the theistic implications of his argument, he posits a multiverse – a solution which, as I’ve argued, is shot through with holes. And Professor Moran thinks this doesn’t even constitute evidence for God’s existence, let alone proof? Frankly, I’m gobsmacked.

I’d also like to quote from an interview with Anthony Flew, who was arguably the leading philosophical atheist of the 20th century, and who converted to deism in 2004, when he was 81. Here’s a short excerpt from a 2004 interview between Flew and Christian philosopher Gary Habermas:

HABERMAS: … Which arguments for God’s existence did you find most persuasive?

FLEW: I think that the most impressive arguments for God’s existence are those that are supported by recent scientific discoveries. I’ve never been much impressed by the kalam cosmological argument, and I don’t think it has gotten any stronger recently. However, I think the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it.

HABERMAS: So you like arguments such as those that proceed from big bang cosmology and fine tuning arguments?

FLEW: Yes…

HABERMAS: So of the major theistic arguments, such as the cosmological, teleological, moral, and ontological, the only really impressive ones that you take to be decisive are the scientific forms of teleology?

FLEW: Absolutely. It seems to me that Richard Dawkins constantly overlooks the fact that Darwin himself, in the fourteenth chapter of The Origin of Species, pointed out that his whole argument began with a being which already possessed reproductive powers. This is the creature the evolution of which a truly comprehensive theory of evolution must give some account. Darwin himself was well aware that he had not produced such an account. It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.

Finally, I’d like to quote the testimony of Professor Richard Smalley (1943-2005), winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Towards the end of his life, Dr. Richard Smalley became an Old Earth creationist, after reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist). Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

“Puts the evolutionary model to death”?! These are pretty strong words for a Nobel scientist. And yet, despite this testimony from a Nobel Prize-winning chemist, Professor Moran thinks that there is no evidence for the existence of a supernatural Designer of life.

The irreducibility of biochemical systems (Argument 6)

I’d like to quote from ID advocate Casy Luskin’s article, Leading Biologists Marvel at the “Irreducible Complexity” of the Ribosome, but Prefer Evolution-of-the-Gaps over at Evolution News and Views. The article is about a roundtable symposium on the origin of life, entitled, “Life: What A Concept!”, which was held in 2008 and hosted by John Brockman. The participants included some very prominent people in the field of origin of life research and genomics, such as Freeman Dyson, J. Craig Venter, George Church, Robert Shapiro, Dimitar Sasselov, and Seth Lloyd. Here’s what George Church, Professor of Genetics at Harvard Medical School and Director of the Center for Computational Genetics, had to say about the complexity of the ribosome:

The ribosome, both looking at the past and at the future, is a very significant structure — it’s the most complicated thing that is present in all organisms. Craig does comparative genomics, and you find that almost the only thing that’s in common across all organisms is the ribosome. And it’s recognizable; it’s highly conserved. So the question is, how did that thing come to be? And if I were to be an intelligent design defender, that’s what I would focus on; how did the ribosome come to be?

Craig Venter then suggested that by sequencing the genomes of more organisms, scientists might be able to reconstruct a primitive precursor ribosome, but Church was doubtful:

But isn’t it the case that, if we take all the life forms we have so far, isn’t the minimum for the ribosome about 53 proteins and 3 polynucleotides? And hasn’t that kind of already reached a plateau where adding more genomes doesn’t reduce that number of proteins?

The conversation that ensued reveals the frustration of the participants, who are all convinced naturalists. Interestingly, the term “irreducible complexity” crops up:

VENTER: Below ribosomes, yes: you certainly can’t get below that. But you have to have self-replication.

CHURCH: But that’s what we need to do — otherwise they’ll call it irreducible complexity. If you say you can’t get below a ribosome, we’re in trouble, right? We have to find a ribosome that can do its trick with less than 53 proteins.

VENTER: In the RNA world, you didn’t need ribosomes.

CHURCH: But we need to construct that. Nobody has constructed a ribosome that works well without proteins.

VENTER: Yes.

SHAPIRO: I can only suggest that a ribosome forming spontaneously has about the same probability as an eye forming spontaneously.

CHURCH: It won’t form spontaneously; we’ll do it bit by bit.

SHAPIRO: Both are obviously products of long evolution of preexisting life through the process of trial and error.

CHURCH: But none of us has recreated that any.

SHAPIRO: There must have been much more primitive ways of putting together.

CHURCH: But prove it.

I think it’s fair to conclude that the irreducible complexity (as far as we can tell) of the ribsome constitutes powerful prima facie evidence for an Intelligent Creator of the first life.

The vast amounts of computer-like code stored in DNA (Argument 7)

Let me begin with a quote from agnostic Bill Gates. Nearly twenty years ago, he wrote:

Biological information is the most important information we can discover, because over the next several decades it will revolutionize medicine. Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.
(Gates, The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996 p. 228)

ID advocate Casey Luskin’s article, A Response to Dr. Dawkins’ “Information Challenge” (Part 1): Specified Complexity Is the Measure of Biological Complexity over at Evolution News and Views, contains a very interesting quote from New Atheist Professor Richard Dawkins:

… [t]he machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer engineering journal.
(River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, pg. 17 (New York: Basic Books, 1995).)

Dawkins himself believes that processes of random mutation and unguided selection generated the information in genes. But is he right? I’d like to conclude with a quote from an article in a creationist journal by CSIRO botanist Alex Williams, titled, Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism (Journal of Creation 21(3) 2007). Some of the material in the article (including the ENCODE findings on junk DNA) remains hotly contested, but when I came across the article eight years ago, I was electrified by this passage:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page… DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards… No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

Information that reads both backwards and forwards, and which is multi-layered and multi-dimensional? And meta-information too? As someone who worked for ten years as a computer programmer, I have to say that sounds like the work of an intelligent agent to me.

The argument from the total contingency of the cosmos (i.e. the modal cosmological argument, as opposed to the kalam cosmological argument) (Arguments 3 and 4)

In his original post, Barry Arrington cited as evidence for God the fact that fact that a natural universe cannot logically have a natural cause, as well as the fact that there is something instead of nothing.

Now, I imagine many atheists would have retorted, “Of course a natural universe doesn’t have a natural cause! That’s because it doesn’t have any cause! And as for why there is something rather than nothing, that’s just a brute fact. For anything that exists – God included – you could always ask why it exists.” But these objections miss the underlying point that Barry Arrington was making: the universe is totally contingent. Absolutely nothing about the universe has to be the way it is. The laws could have been different, the initial conditions could have been different, and the entities populating it could have been different. A totally contingent reality, such as our universe, cries out for an explanation.

For those readers who are looking for a good introduction to the argument from the contingency of the cosmos, I would recommend Professor Robert Koons’ Western Theism lecture notes (lectures 2 to 10, and especially lectures 6 to 10), as well as Professor Paul Herrick’s highly readable article, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009).

For those who think they know what’s wrong with the argument, I would recommend Thomist philosopher Edward Feser’s excellent blog post, So you think you understand the cosmological argument? (July 16, 2011). A few highlights:

1. The argument does NOT rest on the premise that “Everything has a cause.”

Lots of people – probably most people who have an opinion on the matter – think that the cosmological argument goes like this: Everything has a cause; so the universe has a cause; so God exists. They then have no trouble at all poking holes in it. If everything has a cause, then what caused God? …

Here’s the funny thing, though. People who attack this argument never tell you where they got it from. They never quote anyone defending it. There’s a reason for that. The reason is that none of the best-known proponents of the cosmological argument in the history of philosophy and theology ever gave this stupid argument. Not Plato, not Aristotle, not al-Ghazali, not Maimonides, not Aquinas, not Duns Scotus, not Leibniz, not Samuel Clarke, not Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, not Mortimer Adler, not William Lane Craig, not Richard Swinburne. And not anyone else either, as far as I know.

2. “What caused God?” is not a serious objection to the argument.

The cosmological argument in its historically most influential versions is not concerned to show that there is a cause of things which just happens not to have a cause. It is not interested in “brute facts” – if it were, then yes, positing the world as the ultimate brute fact might arguably be as defensible as taking God to be… What [the argument] seeks to show is that if there is to be an ultimate explanation of things, then there must be a cause of everything else which not only happens to exist, but which could not even in principle have failed to exist

So, to ask “What caused God?” really amounts to asking “What caused the thing that cannot in principle have had a cause?” … or “What imparted a sufficient reason for existence to that thing which has its sufficient reason for existence within itself and did not derive it from something else?” And none of these questions makes any sense.

3. “Why assume that the universe had a beginning?” is not a serious objection to the argument.

The main reason this is a bad objection …is that most versions of the cosmological argument do not even claim that the universe had a beginning. Aristotelian, Neo-Platonic, Thomistic, and Leibnizian cosmological arguments are all concerned to show that there must be an uncaused cause even if the universe has always existed.

4. “No one has given any reason to think that the First Cause is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, etc.” is not a serious objection to the argument.

Aquinas in fact devotes hundreds of pages across various works to showing that a First Cause of things would have to be all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, and so on and so forth. Other Scholastic writers and modern writers like Leibniz and Samuel Clarke also devote detailed argumentation to establishing that the First Cause would have to have the various divine attributes.

5. “The argument doesn’t prove that Christianity is true” is not a serious objection to the argument.

No one claims that the cosmological argument by itself suffices to show that Christianity is true, that Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, etc. That’s not what it is intended to do.

6. “Science has shown such-and-such” is not a serious objection to (most versions of) the argument.

…[M]ost versions of the cosmological argument do not in any way depend on particular scientific claims. Rather, they start with extremely general considerations that any possible scientific theorizing must itself take for granted – for example, that there is any empirical world at all, or any world of any sort at all.

7. The argument is not a “God of the gaps” argument.

Since the point of the argument is precisely to explain (part of) what science itself must take for granted, it is not the sort of thing that could even in principle be overturned by scientific findings. For the same reason, it is not an attempt to plug some current “gap” in scientific knowledge…

The point is that the kind of criticism one might try to raise against [the argument] is simply not the kind that one might raise in the context of empirical science. It requires instead knowledge of metaphysics and philosophy more generally.

8. Hume and Kant did not have the last word on the argument. Neither has anyone else.

…I don’t think anyone who has studied the issue would deny that Elizabeth Anscombe presented a serious objection to Hume’s claim that something could conceivably come into existence without a cause. Nor is Anscombe by any means the only philosopher to have criticized Hume on this issue.

…Hume’s objection that the cosmological argument commits a fallacy of composition … assumes that the cosmological argument is concerned with explaining why the universe as a whole exists, and that is simply not true of all versions of the argument.

9. What “most philosophers” think about the argument is irrelevant.

The atheist philosopher of religion Quentin Smith maintains that “the great majority of naturalist philosophers have an unjustified belief that naturalism is true and an unjustified belief that theism (or supernaturalism) is false.” For their naturalism typically rests on nothing more than an ill-informed “hand waving dismissal of theism” which ignores “the erudite brilliance of theistic philosophizing today.” Thomists often emphasize that the argument of Aquinas’s On Being and Essence requires only the premise that something or other exists – a stone, a tree, a book, your left shoe, whatever.

Atheist Dan Linford, author of the blog article, How should one respond to the Argument from Contingency?, doesn’t think much of the sophomoric “Who made God?” objection, either:

This fails for a few different reasons.

First, we are talking about the argument from contingency. The argument from contingency argues that all of the contingent facts that there are require a non-contingent explanation. But any sort of non-contingent object that explains all of the contingent facts will not have an explanation for its existence beyond its non-contingency. It could not fail to exist.

Secondly, when we provide a scientific explanation E for some phenomenon x but we do not provide an explanation for E, often, this is not reason to reject E. For example, if we see a trail in a cloud chamber that curves a particular way in a magnetic field, an electron might be the best explanation of our observations, but it would be inappropriate to reject the electron-explanation if we were unable to answer what caused the electron. Likewise, if God is what explains the universe’s existence, yet we cannot explain God’s existence, this does not mean that we should reject theism.
Unfortunately, this last response has become quite popular since it was published in Dawkins’s God Delusion (it had previously appeared in Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not A Christian and in David Hume’s Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion). While it may be able to target some forms of the Cosmological Argument, it is not an appropriate response to the Argument from Contingency.

A better objection, argues Linford, is to ask the theist: “From whence did God’s reasons for creating the universe come?” If the reasons came from within God’s essence, then this means that God had no choice but to create, since God’s essence exists necessarily. But if they didn’t come from within God, then in creating the universe, God may have been acting freely, but He/She was also acting arbitrarily and capriciously. However, this objection has already been answered in Professor Paul Herrick’s highly readable article, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009):

…[W]e typically account for the free choices of others in terms of the reasons they have for their choices (along with their powers or capacities to implement those reasons), and that when we cite good reasons for a choice, along with adequate powers or capacities, we typically attain a rationally satisfying explanation for the choice, an explanation that makes sense of the choice and ends the questioning (with respect to the choice). Look and see for yourself: This is how we reach explanatory finality with respect to choices; this is how we make choices intelligible.

Now this is important: Unlike scientific explanations, which do cite sufficient conditions, notice that a personalistic explanation — an explanation of a choice — does not cite a causally sufficient condition for the choice. Common sense says that the fact that the father loves his children, that he knows how to make a sled, that he knows that a sled would be good for them, and so on, that does not in itself constitute a sufficient causal condition for his choice to build the sled; these factors do not completely cause him to build a sled, for (at least from the common-sense standpoint) we normally suppose that the father could have had those very same reasons and yet could have chosen not to act on them. Likewise, he could have had those same powers and could have chosen not to put them into effect. This is what we normally mean when we say that under the circumstances, he could have chosen otherwise. And this is why we normally suppose that the reasons and capacities of a chooser are not in themselves sufficient for the choice; we suppose that by themselves they do not guarantee that the choice actually gets made. Indeed, isn’t this why we give the father moral credit for making the choice — because he didn’t have to, that is, under the circumstances, he could have stayed inside to watch TV instead? Again, a personalistic explanation explains a choice not by citing a sufficient condition for the choice, but by making sense of the choice (by making the choice rationally intelligible), and it does this by making sense of the choice in terms of good reasons.

No evidence for God, you say? I can only ask: what is your alternative hypothesis?

Miracles (Argument 8)

Finally, we come to miracles. Because miracles are events that take place in the world, the investigation of miracles certainly falls within the purview of science.

The philosophical arguments against the possibility and/or credibility of miracles, have been dealt with by Dr. Timothy McGrew in his article, Miracles in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, so I won’t waste time on them here.

Professor Moran will want to see good evidence of miracles, so I’ll confine myself to one case: the 17th century Italian saint, Joseph of Cupertino, who was seen levitating well above the ground and even flying for some distance through the air, on literally thousands of occasions, by believers and skeptics alike. The saint was the phenomenon of the 17th century. Those who are curious might like to have a look at his biography by D. Bernini (Vita Del Giuseppe da Copertino, 1752, Roma: Ludovico Tinassi and Girolamo Mainardi). The philosopher David Hume, who was notoriously skeptical of miracle claims, never even mentions St. Joseph of Cupertino in his writings. Funny, that.

The evidence for St. Joseph’s flights is handily summarized in an article, The flying saint (The Messenger of Saint Anthony, January 2003), by Renzo Allegri.

The earthly existence of Friar Joseph of Cupertino was rich in charismatic gifts. However, the phenomenon which attracted the most attention occurred during his disconcerting ecstasies. Chronicles recount, as we have already said, that he need only hear the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint before going into an ecstasy. He used to let out a wail and float in the air, remaining suspended between heaven and earth for hours. An inadmissible phenomenon for our modern mentality.

“To doubt is understandable,” Fr. Giulio Berettoni, rector of the Shrine of St. Joseph of Cupertino in Osimo tells me “but it isn’t justifiable. If we take a serious look at the saint’s life from a historical point of view, then we see that we cannot question his ecstasies. There are numerous witness accounts. They began to be documented in 1628, and this continued until Joseph’s death in 1663, i.e. for 35 years. In certain periods, the phenomenon is recorded to have taken place more than once a day. It has been calculated that Joseph’s ‘ecstatic flights’ took place at least 1,000 to 1,500 times in his lifetime, perhaps even more, and that they were witnessed by thousands of people. They were the phenomenon of the century. They were so sensational and so public that they attracted attention from curious people from all walks of life, Italians and foreigners, believers and unbelievers, simple folk, but also scholars, scientists, priests, bishops and cardinals. They continued to occur in every situation, in whatever church in which the saint prayed or celebrated Mass. It is impossible to doubt such a sensational and public phenomenon which repeated itself over time. It is also worth noting that these events occurred in the seventeenth century, the time of the Inquisition. Amazing events, miracles and healings were labelled magic and the protagonists ended up undergoing a trial by the civil and religious Inquisition. In fact, St. Joseph of Cupertino underwent this very fate because of his ecstasies. But he was subjected to various trials without ever being condemned; final proof that these are sensational events, but also real, extraordinary and concrete facts.” (Emphases mine – VJT.)

In view of the fact that miracle claims can be found in many different religions, it would be imprudent to cite St. Joseph’s levitations and flights in support of any one particular religion. But miracles like this, which could be prompted by St. Joseph’s hearing – the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint – certainly constitute evidence for God’s existence. Professor Moran may or may not be persuaded by such evidence, but evidence it certainly is. In the meantime, he might like to have a look at an article by Dr. Michael Grosso, entitled, Hume’s Syndrome: Irrational Resistance to the Paranormal (Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 22, No. 4, pp. 549–556, 2008).

Finally, I should mention the Resurrection of Jesus, of which former atheist Anthony Flew (who nevcer accepted Christianity) declared in 2004: “The evidence for the resurrection is better than for claimed miracles in any other religion. It’s outstandingly different in quality and quantity, I think, from
the evidence offered for the occurrence of most other supposedly miraculous events.” He then adds that he thinks this evidence can be discredited, since we lack “evidence from anyone who was in Jerusalem at the time, who witnessed one of the allegedly miraculous events, and recorded his or her testimony immediately after the occurrence of that allegedly miraculous event.” Nevertheless, even Flew acknowledges that there is evidence for this miraculous event – he just doesn’t happen to think it’s very powerful evidence.

The moral sense

Atheists are fond of claiming that we don’t need God in order to be moral, because we have an independent guide: the Golden Rule. But although the Golden Rile allows us to distinguish good from evil in most situations, it cannot define the meaning of good and evil. For the Rule itself can only bind us if there are certain things which are objectively good for us as human beings – for instance, food, knowledge and companionship. In the absence of objective goods, the Rule degenerates into a pathetic exhortation to respect people’s subjective preferences – which invites the obvious riposte, “Why should I?” There is no reason why I should respect an individual’s subjective preferences – after all, we don’t give cocaine to drug addicts. Natural law is the only sensible foundation on which an atheist can build morality. But such an ethic only works if we treat Nature Herself as normative. The Golden Rule, taken by itself, cannot tell me whether it is morally permissible for me to change my nature by transforming myself into, say, a hyper-intelligent, hyper-sentient cyborg who is nonetheless devoid of empathy (and hence no longer bound by the Golden Rule). Only if we take as a given the fact that this is God’s world, can we view our natural ends as ethically normative, and as objective goods which we tamper with at our peril. In other words, we need to foster belief in God in order to cultivate true respect for Nature.

My subjective self-awareness

The point I’d like to make here is that from a purely naturalistic standpoint, the behavior which promotes survival in humans and other animals could have evolved, regardless of whether they were sentient or not. Currently, there is no conclusive scientific evidence showing that any non-human animals are conscious – a point which is explicitly acknowledged by Marian Stamp Dawkins, Professor of Animal Behavior and Mary Snow Fellow in Biological Sciences, Somerville College, Oxford University. Marian Dawkins is herself sympathetic to the view that a large number of animals may be conscious. Nevertheless, she writes:

“[F]rom a scientific view, we understand so little about animal consciousness (and indeed our own consciousness) that to make the claim that we do understand it, and that we now know which animals experience emotions, may not be the best way to make the case for animal welfare. Anthropomorphism (seeing animals as just like humans) and anecdote were assuming a place in the study of animal consciousness that, it seemed to me, leaves the whole area very vulnerable to being completely demolished by logical argument…

It is, perhaps, not a comfortable conclusion to come to that the only scientific view of consciousness is that we don’t understand how it arises, nor do we know for certain which animals are conscious.
(Marian Stamp Dawkins, Professor of Animal Behavior and Mary Snow Fellow in Biological Sciences, Somerville College, Oxford University, writing in an online article entitled, Convincing the Unconvinced That Animal Welfare Matters, The Huffington Post, 8 June 2012.)

In her recently published book, Why Animals Matter: Animal consciousness, animal welfare, and human well-being (Oxford University Press, 2012), Professor Dawkins discusses the different issues relating to animal consciousness. Throughout the discussion, she maintains a skeptical outlook, because the scientific evidence is “indirect” (p. 111) and that “there is no proof either way about animal consciousness and that it does not serve animals well to claim that there is.” (p. 112). Summarizing the data surveyed, she writes:

The mystery of consciousness remains. The explanatory gap is as wide as ever and all the wanting in the world will not take us across it. Animals and plants can ‘want’ very effectively with never a hint of consciousness, as we can see with a tree wanting to grow in a particular direction. Preference tests, particularly those that provide evidence that animals are prepared to pay ‘costs’ to get what they want, are perhaps the closest we can get to what animals are feeling, but they are not a magic entry into consciousness. They do not solve the hard problem for us because everything that animals do when they make choices or show preferences or even ‘work’ to get what they want could be done without conscious experience at all. We have seen (Chapters 4 and 5) just how much we humans do unconsciously and how powerful our unconscious minds are in making decisions and even in having emotions. What is good enough for us may well be good enough for other species.

… The similarity between the behavioral responses of animals and humans to such drugs make it tempting to assume that because the behavior is similar, the conscious experiences must be similar too. Of course they may be, but there is no more ‘must’ about it than in the claim that animals ‘must’ consciously experience thirst before they drink or ‘must’ consciously experience hunger while they are searching for food. They may well do so, as we saw in Chapter 8. But there is no must about it. Animal bodies have evolved by natural selection to restore imbalances of food and water and to repair wounds and other kinds of damage. Neither food deprivation nor water deprivation, nor the symptoms of inflamed joints, are necessarily accompanied by any conscious experiences at all, although they may be. Just as our wounds heal up without any conscious intention on our part and we like certain foods without knowing why, so other animals, too, have a variety of mechanisms, for repairing and restoring their bodies to proper working order. Preference and choice and ‘what animals want’ are part of those mechanisms. They may well be accompanied by conscious experiences. But then again, they may not be. Once again, our path to finding out the answer is blocked by the implacable, infuriating obstacle known as the hard problem.” (pp. 171-174)

Professor Marian Dawkins concludes that since at the present time, scientists don’t know which (if any) animals are conscious, it is better for animal welfare advocates to refuse to commit themselves on the question of which animals are conscious: “… it is much, much better for animals if we remain skeptical and agnostic [about consciousness] … Militantly agnostic if necessary, because this keeps alive the possibility that a large number of species have some sort of conscious experiences … For all we know, many animals, not just the clever ones and not just the overtly emotional ones, also have conscious experiences.” (p. 177)

Viewed from a naturalistic perspective, the existence of consciousness is a surprising fact – one which we have no reason to expect. From a theistic perspective, on the other hand, it makes perfect sense: one would expect a personal Creator to make beings who were capable of knowing and loving their Creator, if He were going to make a world at all. Since each of us possesses not only awareness but also subjective self-awareness, we can apply apply Bayesian logic and deduce that the existence of God is highly probable, unless it can be shown that God’s existence has a very low a priori probability, in the first place. Now, if a skeptic wants to argue that, then they are welcome to do so, but in that case, the onus is on them to put forward a case against God.

Summary

In this post, we have looked at several lines of argument which point to the conclusion that God exists. Leading scientific and philosophical atheists have acknowledged that these arguments count as evidence, even if they remain unpersuaded by this evidence. I can only conclude that Professor Moran’s recent claim that there is absolutely no evidence for God or the supernatural flies in the face of what intelligent, open-minded atheists have to say on the subject. Professor Moran is obviously an intelligent man, but I wonder if he is as open-minded as he claims to be.

What do readers think? Is there any evidence for God?

Comments
Hi RD
I think that like all the rest of our concepts (time, space, temporal order, locality, physical laws, etc) causality is something that makes sense only within certain realms of experience, and once we extend our investigation beyond those limits, the concept becomes meaningless.
Do you think that causality is a real power in nature, or do you think that is only a mental concept? This is an important question that we cannot just gloss over. What is your position?
I explained to you that our conception of causality appears to be violated in phenomena in extraordinary circumstance, and that the birth of spacetime would be an extraordinary circumstance. I never ventured any guess about where mass/energy may have come from.
Well, that is not really what I am getting at. Is it your position that if a horse suddenly appeared in your living room without a cause (something you believe is unlikely, but possible) it could only occur if pre-existent matter was being configured (or re-configured)? Or, could it also occur even if no pre-existent matter was involved, in other words, from nothing at all?
For the third time: Quantum effects – like things spontaneously appearing – do not happen in the classical world, but not because they are prohibited by physical laws; rather, they do not happen because they are too improbable.
What is the probability that a horse could appear in your living room without a cause?
Right – exactly. In other words, the law of conservation would be violated by the creation of mass/energy, so if mass/energy was created at the birth of the universe, that law was violated (in other words, there was no such law in effect).
I don’t understand your comment. How can a non-existent law be violated? The law of conservation could only be violated if it pre-existed the birth of the universe. If it came with the material universe, then it is subject to being violated only after matter came into existence. Do you have any evidence to support the idea that the law of conservation preceded the existence of time/space/matter?
What is a creator?
For our purposes, it is an intelligent agent with a free will capable of producing a universe and all its laws, including the law of conservation. Note that I am not "assuming" the existence of libertarian free will. I am drawing the logical conclusion that only someone with a free will can decide to create.StephenB
February 22, 2015
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RDFish
There is no room that the balloon floats within – there is just the balloon and nothing else, not even space.
I understand what you're trying to say, but it's inexplicable. We define the earth by its boundaries. As I said, earth and non-earth. A thing is finite because it has boundaries or limits. A finite universe is contingent. The universe does not explain why it has this finite limitation verses that. Science cannot model or explain something that "has nothing outside of it". It's a paradox and similar to some of the examples you've given about quantum effects. These things are incomprehensible - beyond our comprehension. But for some reason you're able to accept them while you're not able to discuss the existince of a first cause, for similar reasons. It seems inconsistent to me.Silver Asiatic
February 22, 2015
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F/N: On nothingness vs necessary being and root cause of the cosmos. Let us stipulate what nothing truly means. Not primordial matter-energy in some state such as a quantum foam in a pre-existent space-time matrix. Patently, such would be some-thing, something. Nothing, proper is just that: non-being. Which, having no properties cannot cause or constrain anything. If ever there were an utter nothing, tthat would forever obtain. But we live in a cosmos, so there never was an utter nothing. There always was something, pointing to the root: a necessary being causally adequate to account for an orderly, organised, fine tuned cosmos fitted for C-chemistry, cell based, aqueous medium life. A designer. Sitting at the root of reality, adequate to cause a cosmos and a necessary being. (One having no dependence on external on/off factors so that if possible a serious candidate to be such will be present in all possible worlds. That is we see the need for a necessary being at the root of reality and that a designer and maker of the cosmos is a serious candidate. A candidate that fills the bill to be God. And whoever above was talking about ID and God needs to understand the distinction between design in the world of life that in principle needs no more than an advanced molecular nanotech lab, and origin of the cosmos by a designer able to monkey with physics such that the very elements and their critical chemical properties are put-up jobs. And I here deliberately use the language of the distinguished astrophysicist, lifelong agnostic and Nobel-equivalent prize holder Sir Fred Hoyle, who went on to infer that there are no blind forces of consequence in our world.) But then we see objectors perfectly willing to burn down first principles of reason and dress up in the quantum theory lab coat to do it. And of course such irrationality must pretend that rationality is nonsensical. Which readily -- but sadly -- explains recent rhetoric: you no writa da inglish good so I ignore your evidence and reasoning, pretending you don't exist. (That's move 2 on that little bit of rhetoric; to which the astute reader will respond by seeing that a classical dirty rhetorical tactic -- try Wilson's The Arte of Rhetorique -- has long been to studiously ignore what one has no answer to if one thinks one can get away with it. The proper answer to that is to draw attention to what is being rhetorically suppressed. And shoot at the messenger does not change the objective state of facts and reasoning, or the balance of a matter on the merits. Which should drive our reasoning.) KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2015
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Re RDF, 115: The other shoe drops, on attempted dismissal of causality:
[SB, 113:] [a] How do the laws of physics support your proposition that the universe may have been uncaused? [RDF, 115:] Because other events appear to be uncaused (such as radioactive decay, virtual particle creation, etc).
Of course RDF (who has seriously mischaracterised and falsely accused the undersigned) refuses to read what appears under my handle. This is for record. It is simple to note that absent a radioactive atom -- or more properly a population of same -- there will be no radioactive decay. That is, we identify a necessary . . . enabling, on/off . . . causal factor. We know as well that atoms face inner forces of instability and that radioactive decay is in effect a stabilising effect of those forces. Yes, there is a stochastic process reflecting in randomness and probabilities; that is not unusual. But the coming into existence of such a population of atoms with such a stochastic process is itself a proper case of an effect -- typically tracing to what happens in and around big enough stars. (We do start out with mostly H and He.) Thus, radioactive decay shows itself to be subject to causal roots. As to virtual particles, this is generally held to be rooted in an underlying energy base in space and matter. Where it is also generally subject to the constraint of the Einstein energy-time uncertainty relationship: delta-E * delta-t is at least h-bar/2. Such, again implies underlying causes that constrain possibilities. Overall, the implication is, we are here dealing with a breakdown of right reason tied to rejection of its first principles and to a scientism that fails to understand the dependence of both physics and mathematics on said first principles. Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit is not a wise move. So, we are now back to the error of trying to pop a whole cosmos out of a non-existent hat. KFkairosfocus
February 21, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
The edge of the earth is where we distinguish earth from non-earth.
No, you misunderstand. A "surface" is two dimensional. If the Earth was flat then there would be edges to the Earth's surface, but there are no edges to the Earth's surface because the Earth is a sphere. So the surface of the Earth is not infinite, but neither does it have edges - there is nothing beyond the surface of the Earth in two dimensions. This is an analogy to help you understand how the universe can be finite but without boundaries. In the case of the universe, it exists in four dimensions rather than two, so it is difficult for us to conceptualize.
You’ve said that there is nothing beyond the universe – thus a distinction between the universe and nothing.
:-) No, when I say "there is nothing beyond the universe", I do not mean "there is something beyond the universe that I refer to as 'nothing'". Rather, I mean just what I said: There is nothing beyond the universe. People unfamiliar with cosmosology imagine a universe with boundaries that exists in some larger space, like a balloon floating within a room. But universe does not exist within space - it is space itself (and time). There is no room that the balloon floats within - there is just the balloon and nothing else, not even space. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 21, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
I am asking you to disclose your position. Does causality exist as a real power in nature or is it solely a mental phenomenon?
I think that like all the rest of our concepts (time, space, temporal order, locality, physical laws, etc) causality is something that makes sense only within certain realms of experience, and once we extend our investigation beyond those limits, the concept becomes meaningless.
RDF: These are not my opinions – they are uncontroversial results of the most successful and precisely confirmed scientific theory of all time (quantum theory). SB: Is it your position that it is both possible and highly improbable that a horse can appear in your living room without a cause?
These are not my opinions – they are uncontroversial results of the most successful and precisely confirmed scientific theory of all time (quantum theory).
There seems to be a disconnect here. First, you say that a universe could, in principle, spontaneously appear even in the absence of pre-existent matter.
Nope, not what I said. I explained to you that our conception of causality appears to be violated in phenomena in extraordinary circumstance, and that the birth of spacetime would be an extraordinary circumstance. I never ventured any guess about where mass/energy may have come from.
Now you are saying that some things can spontaneously appear as long as they are configurations of pre-existent matter.
For the third time: Quantum effects - like things spontaneously appearing - do not happen in the classical world, but not because they are prohibited by physical laws; rather, they do not happen because they are too improbable.
First you say causality can be suspended for universes and quantum events,
Nope, never said causality can be "suspended", nor have I offered a theory about causality and the origin of the universe. I did explain to you that classical causality did not appear to apply to certain quantum phenomena, and I also said that the birth of spacetime would be an extraordinary realm where our conception of causality may not apply.
... and now you are saying that, in principle, causality can be suspended for anything at all.
When did I ever say that? What I said was this:
A textbook example of this is the car on one side of a hill suddenly disappearing and reappearing on the other side without driving over the top. This is something that would seem to violate the laws of physics. Yet this very phenomenon is easily observed in the quantum realm with tiny particles instead of macro objects like cars, and so there is a finite (but practically zero) probability that it could happen to actual cars as well.
What makes you think that there was a law of conservation to be violated when mass/energy was created?
Right - exactly. In other words, the law of conservation would be violated by the creation of mass/energy, so if mass/energy was created at the birth of the universe, that law was violated (in other words, there was no such law in effect).
Are you suggesting that the law of conservation is eternal?
Perhaps mass/energy has always existed, or perhaps there is something that allows a temporary violation of conservation, analogous to the way virtual particles violate conservation but only within the limits of Heisenberg uncertainty.
If not, where would it come from if not a creator?
What is a "creator"? How can a creator create the law of conservation? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 21, 2015
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RDF
The surface of the Earth is finite, as there are only so many square miles of surface area. But it doesn’t have any boundaries – there is no edge of the Earth.
The edge of the earth is where we distinguish earth from non-earth. You've said that there is nothing beyond the universe - thus a distinction between the universe and nothing.Silver Asiatic
February 21, 2015
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RDFish
I agree that it’s confusing. Hume of course denied any sort of existence to causality; Kant attempted to rehabilitate it, but there is still no general agreement on who was correct.
I am well aware of the historical record. I am asking you to disclose your position. Does causality exist as a real power in nature or is it solely a mental phenomenon?
These are not my opinions – they are uncontroversial results of the most successful and precisely confirmed scientific theory of all time (quantum theory).
Is it your position that it is both possible and highly improbable that a horse can appear in your living room without a cause?
But there are no physical laws that preclude pre-existing matter/energy from being spontaneously configured into outlandishly improbable states.
There seems to be a disconnect here. First, you say that a universe could, in principle, spontaneously appear even in the absence of pre-existent matter. Now you are saying that some things can spontaneously appear as long as they are configurations of pre-existent matter. Which is your position?
A textbook example of this is the car on one side of a hill suddenly disappearing and reappearing on the other side without driving over the top. This is something that would seem to violate the laws of physics. Yet this very phenomenon is easily observed in the quantum realm with tiny particles instead of macro objects like cars, and so there is a finite (but practically zero) probability that it could happen to actual cars as well.
First you say causality can be suspended for universes and quantum events, and now you are saying that, in principle, causality can be suspended for anything at all. Which is your position?
Finally, if you would like to point out that the creation of the mass/energy in the universe violates conservations laws – of course that is correct.
What makes you think that there was a law of conservation to be violated when mass/energy was created? Are you suggesting that the law of conservation is eternal? If not, where would it come from if not a creator?StephenB
February 21, 2015
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I thought ID had nothing to do with god or religion...CHartsil
February 21, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Earlier, you stated that the origin of the universe was an “extraordinary event,” and on those grounds may have been uncaused. Now you are saying that it may have been uncaused because it is just like many other quantum events, which occur daily. So, which is it? Was it an ordinary or extraordinary event?
What I mean by "extraordinary" is that it is outside of our "ordinary" realm of experience - hence extraordinary. Quantum events are extraordinary in this sense, because they are far removed from our ordinary experience, since they are so small, and they behave in ways that are very much foreign to the way we understand things (time, space, location, movement, and so on). Very massive things like black holes are also extraordinary, and behave in ways that contradict our normal experience. Likewise when things move with relative velocities approaching lightspeed. So in this sense of "extraordinary", the birth of the universe would clearly be extraordinary.
Are you saying that causality does not reflect the activity of the real world and exists only in the mind of the investigator?
I think causality is hard to understand, but it doesn't have the same sort of existence as mass/energy or gravitation. And causality as we understand it from our ordinary experience does appear to be violated in the extraordinary realms that I've discussed and cited.
Are you saying that causality began to exist only when scientists and philosophers started asking questions about it? There seems to be much confusion here.
I agree that it's confusing. Hume of course denied any sort of existence to causality; Kant attempted to rehabilitate it, but there is still no general agreement on who was correct. That is exactly why it is futile to argue for the existence of (your conception of) God by relying on the sort of causality we induce from our everyday experience.
RDF: A horse in a living room is clearly in the classical realm, and so we can be certain that horses will not appear spontaneously.” SB: The question is this: Is it possible that a horse could appear in your living room without reason or cause? You seem to be saying no, but you are not being very clear.
I answered as clearly as I could without over-simplifying. Could a broken egg be put in a blender and reassemble into a whole egg? Of course no reasonable person would expect this to ever happen, and it is safe to say we could run this experiment for countless millenia and never observe it to happen. But the laws of physics (e.g. 2nd Law of TD) do not actually prohbit such a thing - they simply tell us that it is astronomically improbable. Same with quantum physics - they are probabilistic in nature, and so they do not actually say various things are impossible, but only wildly improbable.
So you are saying that it is improbable, but definitely possible, for a brick wall to appear in front of your moving automobile without a reason or cause? Is it the same with the horse in your living room? You think it is highly improbable, but definitely possible, that it may appear without a reason or cause. Is that your final answer?
These are not my opinions - they are uncontroversial results of the most successful and precisely confirmed scientific theory of all time (quantum theory). Now, there are some things that physics does say is impossible - violation of conservation laws, for example, so if the appearing horse required a violation of mass/energy conservation it would be impossible. But there are no physical laws that preclude pre-existing matter/energy from being spontaneously configured into outlandishly improbable states. A textbook example of this is the car on one side of a hill suddenly disappearing and reappearing on the other side without driving over the top. This is something that would seem to violate the laws of physics. Yet this very phenomenon is easily observed in the quantum realm with tiny particles instead of macro objects like cars, and so there is a finite (but practically zero) probability that it could happen to actual cars as well. Finally, if you would like to point out that the creation of the mass/energy in the universe violates conservations laws - of course that is correct. It means even our notion of conserved quantities break down at the extraordinary circumstance of the beginning of spacetime. And of course, positing some conscious being who could violate the conservation laws doesn't somehow remedy that. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 21, 2015
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Hi Box,
The universe cannot be non-contingent or self-explanatory if its existence is dependent upon other things.
I won't argue that, but I don't understand why you think the universe is dependent upon other things just because it contains different things.
The balloon is dependent the material it is made from and the shape that it was designed to be to hold air, etc. Without the material and shape the balloon does not exist. So, the balloon is contingent on its material, shape and design. The universe is dependent on the things that comprise the universe. Without those things, there is no universe. So, the universe is a contingent thing.
Here you seem to be alluding to the concept of conservation: You are saying that the mass/energy of the universe had to come from somewhere, just as the rubber from the balloon had to come from somewhere. It's true that we have a number of important scientific laws identifying various conserved quantities such as mass/energy, linear and angular momentum, electric charge, etc. These are things that have never been observed to be be either created or destroyed. So where did they come from? Now, either the stuff in the unvierse has always existed, or it began to exist, right? If it always existed, we have no need to hypothesize something that created it. If it began to exist, then conservation has obviously been violated at some point, and hypothesizing a god (a conscious being) that could create mass/energy, charge, momentum, etc. out of nothing doesn't obviate that problem, since that too would represent a violation of conservation.
RDF: There is no such thing as the non-universe. SA: The only way this could be true is if the universe was infinite, eternal and unlimited by boundaries of any kind. Do you believe the universe is infinite, eternal and without any boundaries?
No, the universe may be without boundaries but still not be infinite. If you don't understand how this could be, you need to read an introduction to cosmology. But until you do, consider this: The surface of the Earth is finite, as there are only so many square miles of surface area. But it doesn't have any boundaries - there is no edge of the Earth. Analogously, the volume of the universe can be finite, but have no boundaries - no edge of the universe, and nothing beyond the universe .
Wouldn’t you need to know something about the first cause to determine if it exists or not?
I'm thinking of "cause" as we do in the ordinary sense. It is not clear that anything caused the universe in that sense.
For example, could you evaluate arguments for and against the idea that there could be only one first cause and not many?
I don't think there is anything to argue here, since nobody really has a scientific theory for how the universe came to exist. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 21, 2015
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RDFish
Because other events appear to be uncaused (such as radioactive decay, virtual particle creation, etc).
Earlier, you stated that the origin of the universe was an "extraordinary event," and on those grounds may have been uncaused. Now you are saying that it may have been uncaused because it is just like many other quantum events, which occur daily. So, which is it? Was it an ordinary or extraordinary event?
Causality is a principle that we use to understand the world – not some physical force or particle that emerged at some time or “became a reality”
Are you saying that causality does not reflect the activity of the real world and exists only in the mind of the investigator? Are you saying that causality began to exist only when scientists and philosophers started asking questions about it? There seems to be much confusion here.
A horse in a living room is clearly in the classical realm, and so we can be certain that horses will not appear spontaneously."
The question is this: Is it possible that a horse could appear in your living room without reason or cause? You seem to be saying no, but you are not being very clear.
....it is only because it is (astronomically) too improbable for it to happen. Same with quantum physics: The laws that explain the foundation of physical reality are statistical in nature.
So you are saying that it is improbable, but definitely possible, for a brick wall to appear in front of your moving automobile without a reason or cause? Is it the same with the horse in your living room? You think it is highly improbable, but definitely possible, that it may appear without a reason or cause. Is that your final answer?StephenB
February 21, 2015
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RDFish
I think all you are saying is that there are lots of different things in the universe. I agree there is mass/energy and various forces. I don’t see why this implies that the universe is not necessary.
The universe cannot be non-contingent or self-explanatory if its existence is dependent upon other things. "This balloon is necessary - it explains itself and is non-contingent". Not correct. The balloon is dependent the material it is made from and the shape that it was designed to be to hold air, etc. Without the material and shape the balloon does not exist. So, the balloon is contingent on its material, shape and design. The universe is dependent on the things that comprise the universe. Without those things, there is no universe. So, the universe is a contingent thing. It does not explain itself - it is explained by what it contains. It could and does contain different things all the time - so these things change what the universe is from minute to minute. If something else defines what the universe is, then we cannot say that the universe is non-contingent. A non-contingent thing has an existence that is independent of anything else. It explains itself and is uncaused by anything else. It is not dependent on what it contains. Everything else is dependent on it - since it is the ultimate cause of all things. The universe cannot be non-contingent because it is dependent on other things to define it.
There is no such thing as the non-universe.
The only way this could be true is if the universe was infinite, eternal and unlimited by boundaries of any kind. Do you believe the universe is infinite, eternal and without any boundaries?
If what you mean by “God” is “first cause of the universe”, then yes, “God” refers to something that nobody understands, and may well be as far beyond our comprehension as the laws of quantum physics are beyond the comprehension of a mouse ...
Wouldn't you need to know something about the first cause to determine if it exists or not? For example, could you evaluate arguments for and against the idea that there could be only one first cause and not many?Silver Asiatic
February 21, 2015
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Hi Box,
Because consciousness absolutely must have a material cause, at least according to RDFish.
Don't put words into my mouth - I've never said that.
BTW “hard to swallow” is an understatement: RDFish absolutely refuses to even consider another possibility.
This is also untrue. I have always consistently held that consciousness is mysterious, and that we have no understanding of how it arises, whether it is causal, and so on. What the evidence does suggest however is that it appears to be critically dependent upon certain neural processes.
Therefor it’s very striking that RDFish has no problem whatsoever ‘swallowing’ that the entire universe came into existence without a cause.
And once again you mischaracterize my position, which is that nobody knows how the universe came into existence. It's a lot more interesting if you try to debate against what I think rather than just making up both sides of the argument yourself, Box. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 21, 2015
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RDFish: I find it hard to swallow that something with conscious awareness could exist without a brain.
Because consciousness absolutely must have a material cause, at least according to RDFish. BTW "hard to swallow" is an understatement: RDFish absolutely refuses to even consider another possibility. Therefor it's very striking that RDFish has no problem whatsoever 'swallowing' that the entire universe came into existence without a cause.Box
February 21, 2015
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Hi Siver Asiatic,
The universe is the sum of various parts and elements which all exist together to form a composite. The universe cannot exist by itself because it is not a thing that is itself. It is a thing which is many other things put together. By its nature it is contingent on many things and not self-explained. It is explained by the sum of other contingent things – matter, energy and the particular results of matter and forces that caused planets and stars, etc.
I think you've muddled up the difference between "explanation" and "composition" here.
Planets and stars cannot exist by themselves – they require other things to exist. Therefore the universe cannot exist by itself.
I think all you are saying is that there are lots of different things in the universe. I agree there is mass/energy and various forces. I don't see why this implies that the universe is not necessary.
We distinguish space from non-space.
I don't understand this sentence.
We distinguish one place from another. Unless you’re saying that the universe is infinite and has no boundaries, the universe is contingent on the non-universe in order to have definition and exist.
I think you are still confused about the concept of space. The universe does not exist in space. There is no such thing as the non-universe.
RDF: I don’t mean anything by that term [God] at all SA: Then how can you say that God is beyond our comprehension?
I've never said that. What I said was that the first cause of the universe, if such a thing exists, is beyond our comprehension. If what you mean by "God" is "first cause of the universe", then yes, "God" refers to something that nobody understands, and may well be as far beyond our comprehension as the laws of quantum physics are beyond the comprehension of a mouse. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 21, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Oh please, RD. You are revealing your own ignorance if you don’t know that there are at least ten different interpretations of quantum events. Each one of them is based on empirical evidence and can be justified mathematically.
What you are speaking about is the measurement problem, and your point is exactly the point I've been arguing against ba77 here! He has chosen one particular interpretation - one that hardly any living physicist believes - and decided it is true, and also that it proves the existence of God somehow. So thank you for pointing out his error there. In contrast, there is the hard science that is confirmed by experiment - ba77 has provided hundreds of links to these results, and I just gave you four that I found in a few seconds - that strongly suggest what I have been explaining to you: There is no interpretation of these results that is compatible with our classical notions of causality, locality, simultaneity and temporal ordering, and realism. Did you bother to read the links I gave you? How about the one in Nature that definitively states that certain phenomena violate causal ordering? Or you just don't want to know?
The real task is to interpret quantum events in a rational way. Philosophers of science, who are the only ones qualified to speak about causality, typically argue that the Copenhagen interpretation (or any model that posits acausality) is incoherent.
Again, this is not about the interpretation of the measurement problem - the collapse of the waveform, etc. This has nothing to do with the Copenhagen interpretation. Rather, I am pointing out that the results of experiments (like variations of the quantum eraser) that do not admit any interpretation that adheres to our classical notions of causality. And by the way, even if there was controversy about the violation of causality in QM, that would still undermine your position that causation is a logical truism OR an empirically established fact!
Meanwhile, you are dodging all my questions:
I never dodge your questions :-)
[a] How do the laws of physics support your proposition that the universe may have been uncaused?
Because other events appear to be uncaused (such as radioactive decay, virtual particle creation, etc).
[b] If, as you clearly believe, the universe may have just “poofed” into existence,...
What I clearly believe - and I don't think I could have made this any clearer - is that nobody knows how the universe came to exist.
...then it follows that causality is not prior to that event. If causality is not prior to that event, then when did causality become a reality?
Causality is a principle that we use to understand the world - not some physical force or particle that emerged at some time or "became a reality". What the evidence suggests is that the way we consider causality holds in classical realms (not too large or small or fast or massive) but not in quantum or relativistic realms. I know you don't like this fact, but there it is.
[c] Is it possible that the origin of life was uncaused? Yes or no.
Since life exists in the classical realm I would say there were causal antecedents for the origin of life (although ba77 likes to point out all of the quantum phenomena that have implications in the macro world).
[d] Is it possible that the origin of information was uncaused? Yes or no.
I don't understand this question, sorry.
[e] Is it possible for a horse to appear in your living room uncaused? Yes or no.
As I've tried to explain to you several times now, classical causality holds reliably in the classical realm - that is, again, situations where we are not dealing with things that are too massive, or too small, or with too much relative velocity where we have to use relativistic and/or quantum physics to understand it. A horse in a living room is clearly in the classical realm, and so we can be certain that horses will not appear spontaneously.
(f) Is it possible for a brick wall to appear uncaused in front of your moving automobile. Yes or no.
See (e) - same point. Note however, that just like the 2nd law of thermodynamics, these statements are statistical in nature. We all know that an egg will not reassemble once broken because of the 2nd law, but it is only because it is (astronomically) too improbable for it to happen. Same with quantum physics: The laws that explain the foundation of physical reality are statistical in nature.
(g) Can you provide any rational justification for your claim that the universe may not be contingent?
I just did. For all we know, the universe may be uncaused and necessary. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 21, 2015
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RDFish
How do you know the universe cannot exist by itself?
The universe is the sum of various parts and elements which all exist together to form a composite. The universe cannot exist by itself because it is not a thing that is itself. It is a thing which is many other things put together. By its nature it is contingent on many things and not self-explained. It is explained by the sum of other contingent things - matter, energy and the particular results of matter and forces that caused planets and stars, etc. Planets and stars cannot exist by themselves - they require other things to exist. Therefore the universe cannot exist by itself. We distinguish space from non-space. We distinguish one place from another. Unless you're saying that the universe is infinite and has no boundaries, the universe is contingent on the non-universe in order to have definition and exist.
I don’t mean anything by that term [God] at all
Then how can you say that God is beyond our comprehension?Silver Asiatic
February 21, 2015
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RDFish
You might have at least tried to search for a few references before you revealed your ignorance.
Oh please, RD. You are revealing your own ignorance if you don’t know that there are at least ten different interpretations of quantum events. Each one of them is based on empirical evidence and can be justified mathematically. The real task is to interpret quantum events in a rational way. Philosophers of science, who are the only ones qualified to speak about causality, typically argue that the Copenhagen interpretation (or any model that posits acausality) is incoherent. Meanwhile, you are dodging all my questions: [a] How do the laws of physics support your proposition that the universe may have been uncaused? [b] If, as you clearly believe, the universe may have just "poofed" into existence, then it follows that causality is not prior to that event. If causality is not prior to that event, then when did causality become a reality? (You have been running away from this question for weeks). [c] Is it possible that the origin of life was uncaused? Yes or no. [d] Is it possible that the origin of information was uncaused? Yes or no. [e] Is it possible for a horse to appear in your living room uncaused? Yes or no. (f) Is it possible for a brick wall to appear uncaused in front of your moving automobile. Yes or no. (g) Can you provide any rational justification for your claim that the universe may not be contingent?StephenB
February 21, 2015
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F/N: While there is indeed confusion and debate, in fact once we understand that necessary causal factors are just that . . . causal factors . . . it is readily, almost trivially, apparent that ignorance of sufficient factors to determine an outcome or to even set up a stochastic pattern or probability distribution of outcomes does not imply events that are a-causal. And, there is no strict requirement that a cause be present before an effect begins; only, that it be present when an effect occurs. For instance, no radioactive nucleus, no possibility of alpha decay (e.g. for a Schrodinger's cat- in- a- box thought exercise) but so soon as a sufficient population of atoms is present, decays will be detectable (the cat thought exercise pivots on a low enough population that decays are fairly rare, but in fact as a rule of thumb, I would expect about 15 decays/minute from a typical GM counter just sitting there and tuned to the plateau zone, as background . . . the implication is, very heavy shielding etc). Likewise -- and this is historically important -- the photoemissive photo-electric EFFECT is just that; an effect rooted in the impact of causal factors, including a surface, light at or below a certain threshold. And so forth. Indeed, routinely, physicists investigate causal factors in setting up quantum-related experiments in which circumstances of interest are set up and manipulated to see responses of systems. KF PS: On wider matters of Quantum Theory and laws of thought, it may be helpful to see here, from the UD WACs: https://uncommondescent.com/hasnt-quantum-theory-proved-that-the-law-of-non-contradiction-that-id-thinkers-use-is-outdated/kairosfocus
February 21, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Yes, RD, we’ve got it. If the effect is too big, it doesn’t need a cause; If it is too small, it also doesn’t need a cause. If it is just the right size, then maybe, if you approve, it needs a cause.
It isn't my approval, but rather the laws of physics, that are relevant here.
Can you understand why some of us think that your world view is a bit irrational?
Yes: I would say the reason would be that you are not aquainted with modern physics.
Apparently, you didn’t know that physics is based on causality and not the other way around.
You might have at least tried to search for a few references before you revealed your ignorance. Here are some academic references to how the laws of physics are at odds with our classical notions of causality that I found in just a few seconds of searching: http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199279739.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199279739-e-0034 http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n10/full/ncomms2076.html http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.0167 http://phys.org/news/2012-10-quantum-causal.html
Really, RD, you are living in the twilight zone. I recommend that you stop reading the books you have been reading and acquaint yourself with better authors.
StephenB, I've mentioned this before, but it still amazes me: I'm not saying anything here that ba77 hasn't posted zillions of times. He is actually familiar with how modern physics violates our classical understanding of causality, temporal ordering, locality, and realism (but he draws harebrained conclusions from unjustified philosophical extrapolations therefrom). You, on the other hand, apparently have no familiarity at all with the results of physics in the last 100+ years. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 20, 2015
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F/N, Re RDF: I again draw attention to 66 above, which shows the root problems with his rhetorical tactic of "You no writa da Inglish good" which he hopes to use to evade addressing issues. However, it is now buried in a stream of comments so it helps to clip: ________________ >> Let’s roll the tape: RDF, 39, to BA [35]: >>[BA, 35:] Can you point to any particular “thing” in the universe that is other than contingent? {RDF, 39:} We have no way of knowing, of course! [--> note the dismissal of a basis of warrant for knowledge on contingency, part of a far wider problem with fundamental reasoning RDF has demonstrated in and around UD for some years] I think perhaps it’s you who hasn’t quite understood the concept. [--> note the implication that contingency needs to be clarified and that in the context of the observed cosmos] As far as you or I can tell, it could be the case that nothing is contingent. [--> inviting correction by correctly identifying what contingency of being is] Just because things in our experience change, begin to exist, and cease to exist, does not mean that they might have been different [--> inviting more of the same by way of trying to twist what contingency of being means into pretzels] . Prove [--> as in, show per evidence and warrant] otherwise!>> KF, 41, responding to this error by specifically clarifying what contingency speaks to, in the context of the observed cosmos: >> First, contingency of being implies dependency on external enabling factors or circumstances (think on the fire example). [--> for more cf current post in deeper response here, which uses the fire tetrahedron to show how contingency of being indicates dependence on external enabling on/off causal factors, leading to how things begin, are sustained in existence and cease; or using possible worlds talk, that for a contingent being c there is a possible world PW1 where it is, and another PW2, where it does not due to one of those factors being off. So for instance I switch on the gas flow and strike a spark to light up a stove burner, then adjust and turn off by closing off the flow of fuel. Thus we see how c begins, is sustained and ceases based on those enabling factors. Where, years ago, this same example of a fire as paradigm contingent being was discussed in RDF's presence and that of others. ] Second a world of contingent beings calls forth a necessary causal root, so the discussion is about that root. Third, parsimony is a recommendation for economy of thought and not a proper criterion of truth or warrant. Finally, we have empirical observational experience of just one cosmos, which is based on matter-energy in space-time undergoing change processes. Processes that since the 1920's and esp. the 1960?s, we have had strong reason to understand trace to a finitely remote beginning at a singularity, c 10 – 20 BYA. (That loose number is projectable from various astronomical data, starting with patterns of HR curves for clusters, red shift, etc.) The contingency of the observed cosmos is well established. It is not about to go away. And, this happens to be the only credibly observed cosmos to date; never mind multiverse speculations. So, by direct extension the contingency of matter and of energy forms linked to that is also well grounded. Exponentiate all by the strong pattern of fine tuning that sets the observed cosmos at a deeply isolated operating point. So, even through a multiverse model, we face contingency requiring necessary being as causal root. Linked to this, locally deeply isolated fine tuning points to as best explanation design. It is exactly not what we would reasonably expect on a multiverse blind needle in haystack search. Indeed, a Boltzmann brain popping up would be on argument a more likely outcome than what we have. So, we have reason to accept that we live in a contingent cosmos that began c 13.7 BYA, and shows strong signs of being designed for C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life . . . >> RDF, 42: >> Everything you say is complete nonsense, and none of it ever responds to a single point I make.>> The tape speaks for itself, and not in RDF’s favour. He has committed the error of red herrings led off to strawman caricatures then soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere. >> ________________ Thus stands exposed RDF's personality-laced false statement at 42 which has become the basis for a drumbeat of false accusations that he now spreads to others. The resort to such agit-prop stunts demonstrates one thing: he has no answer on the merits and is therefore taking flimsy excuses to attack the man and evade addressing the issue. Which, sadly, goes to character. It is high time that RDF did better. KFkairosfocus
February 20, 2015
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Uncaused is the natural state of affairs. The appearance of RDFish here at UD is proof.Mung
February 20, 2015
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RDFish
We invariably identify causes for effects in our ordinary existence – that is, circumstances where things are neither too large (like a galaxy) nor too small (like an electron) nor too fast (like a photon) nor too massive (like a black hole) and so on. What we’ve found, however, is that when we extend our investigations into these extraordinary realms, the things we find utterly obvious and common-sense – things like time, space, simultaneity, locality, causality and even realism – break down.
Yes, RD, we've got it. If the effect is too big, it doesn't need a cause; If it is too small, it also doesn't need a cause. If it is just the right size, then maybe, if you approve, it needs a cause. Can you understand why some of us think that your world view is a bit irrational?
Again: The generalizations (inductions) we make about our ordinary world that seem so rock-solid do not apply when we look at things in extraordinary circumstances – at very different scales of size, masses, relative velocities and so on. If you don’t understand this, I would recommend any number of books that explain modern physics (relativity and quantum theory) at a non-technical level.
Apparently, you didn't know that physics is based on causality and not the other way around. Or, did you labor under the illusion that scientific discoveries determine the principle of causality? Didn't you know that it was through the principle of causality that we make scientific discoveries, including the discovery of the same quantum theory that you are appealing to. Really, RD, you are living in the twilight zone. I recommend that you stop reading the books you have been reading and acquaint yourself with better authors.
Once you understand this, you will see that the moment the universe began is very clearly an extraordinary circumstance, and the generalizations we make from our ordinary world here on Earth don’t apply.
So, now your standard for causality is that it applies to "ordinary" events? Quantum events are ordinary events. Are they caused by virtue of being ordinary? Oh wait, you think they are uncaused, like "wetness," and "universes," What about the origin of life or the origin of information? Were those events uncaused by virtue of being extraordinary events? Or, were they not extraordinary enough? Please fine tune your standard so that we can all understand. What about a horse that appears in your living room? Do you think it must be caused? That would be an extraordinary event, so I guess you think it would be uncaused?StephenB
February 20, 2015
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RDFish is an admitted subjectivist. Beware his constant attempts to introduce some objectivist judgement. He continually seeks to employ the very thing he would attempt to deny to those with whom he disagrees. Sad. Pathetic. But nonetheless, True.Mung
February 20, 2015
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RDFish chooses to not engage me in "debate" because I continually expose his lies. The irony consists in the denial by RDFish of any objective reason for refusing to engage in "debate" with me, KF, or Joe. His excuses are entirely Subjective. Self-serving. Cowardly.Mung
February 20, 2015
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RDFish:
Hi KF, I enjoy hearing other people’s views and exchanging relevant arguments.
Liar.
With you, however, it just isn’t possible. I think it might be a language problem – is English your native language?
Liar.
Again, I don’t mean to be hostile
Liar.
I’m just pointing out why you (along with some others like Mung and Joe) are not able to debate here.
Liar. Pathetic.Mung
February 20, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
That makes things easy. I don’t think it is possible to have a rational discussion with someone who believes that effects can occur without causes. Judge: “You were the only person in the room. Someone placed those stab wounds in that poor man’s back.” Defendent: Not necessarily, your honor. Some stab wounds can appear without a cause.”
Ah, now I see your confusion: You are suffering from hasty generalization. We invariably identify causes for effects in our ordinary existence - that is, circumstances where things are neither too large (like a galaxy) nor too small (like an electron) nor too fast (like a photon) nor too massive (like a black hole) and so on. What we've found, however, is that when we extend our investigations into these extraordinary realms, the things we find utterly obvious and common-sense - things like time, space, simultaneity, locality, causality and even realism - break down. Again: The generalizations (inductions) we make about our ordinary world that seem so rock-solid do not apply when we look at things in extraordinary circumstances - at very different scales of size, masses, relative velocities and so on. If you don't understand this, I would recommend any number of books that explain modern physics (relativity and quantum theory) at a non-technical level. Once you understand this, you will see that the moment the universe began is very clearly an extraordinary circumstance, and the generalizations we make from our ordinary world here on Earth don't apply. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 20, 2015
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RDFish
There is nothing in either logic nor the laws of physics that requires all things that begin to exist to have causes.
That makes things easy. I don't think it is possible to have a rational discussion with someone who believes that effects can occur without causes. Judge: "You were the only person in the room. Someone placed those stab wounds in that poor man's back." Defendent: Not necessarily, your honor. Some stab wounds can appear without a cause."StephenB
February 20, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
We know that something caused it to exist because everything that begins to exist requires a cause. I understand that you reject the principle causality, but there it is.
There is nothing in either logic nor the laws of physics that requires all things that begin to exist to have causes. What causes, for example, a single radioactive atom to decay (and form new particles)? There is no cause identified for this event. Likewise, the formation of virtual particles: A particular pair of virtual particles pops into existence at some random time, and as far as physics can tell, without any cause at all.
Don’t allow your metaphysical beliefs to cloud your judgment.
My metaphysical beliefs, as you should know by now, are constrained by sufficient warrant: I do not believe that we should pretend we have logically and/or empirically justified solutions to these longstanding philosophical problems just because we don't like the feeling of not knowing. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 20, 2015
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