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Non-probabilistic design arguments

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Biochemist Michael Behe has stated:

“A man from a primitive culture who sees an automobile might guess that it was powered by the wind or by an antelope hidden under the car, but when he opens up the hood and sees the engine he immediately realizes that it was designed. In the same way biochemistry has opened up the cell to examine what makes it run and we see that it, too, was designed.”

One needs no probabilistic calculation to infer design before a car or cell. Why — as Behe says — “he immediately realizes that it was designed”? Because such dynamic systems show clear hallmarks of organization. Some of them are:

(1) hierarchy of devices and functions (see my previous post);
(2) hierarchy of tasks and actions, when the system is in operation;
(3) implementation of the control-power paradigm (see here);
(4) implementation of the communication paradigm between sub-systems.

Why organization implies intelligent design? Because chance and necessity cannot create organization in principle.

In fact chance is simply a brute force of un-correlation. Example, in coin tossing any outcome is unrelated to the previous ones. Since organization eminently implies relations, how can a producer of non relations create it? Not only chance can do nothing to organize, even it destroys organization if it enter into the systems.

The same, necessity (aka natural laws) per se cannot be the cause of organization because they don’t potentially contain it. Natural laws are relatively simple mathematical equations. These equations don’t implicitly contain the specifications of the least organized system, as the simple function y=x^2 doesn’t contain, say, Riemann’s zeta function, which is of a far higher order than the quadratic one.

Neither the couple natural laws + randomness can create organization. In fact natural laws are a processor. If randomness provides garbage in input to it this processor necessarily outputs garbage.

The usual objections to this non-probabilistic ID argument are:

Objection #1: “This ID argument may be ok for the machines but it doesn’t apply to biological systems because they self-reproduce”.
Reply: On the contrary, the ID inference applies to biology to greater reason, because self-reproduction needs organization of the highest order. That was mathematically proved by J. von Neumann more than half century ago.

Objection #2: “In biology natural selection creates organization by optimizing random variations”.
Reply: Natural selection is simply an additional post processor in the chain of chance and necessity. I said above they provide garbage, so natural selection cannot produce new organization from random variations, because again “garbage in garbage out”.

Objection #3: “Non-probabilistic ID arguments are not scientific because they aren’t quantitative”.
Reply: Science is full of non quantitative arguments. Even entire fields of mathematics are not quantitative. Also, in general, all quantitative arguments are necessarily based on non quantitative assumptions.

Objection #4: “Simple rules can create complex patterns”.
Reply: These patterns have nothing to do with the least organized system.

Objection #5: “Your arguments are only philosophical assumptions”.
Reply: No, they are pure technical, engineering issues.

Objection #6: “Devices, functions, tasks, control-power, communication are only ideas in your mind”.
Reply: No, they are real things you see with your eyes. You deny evidence.

Objection #7: “Organization is not a well defined concept”.
Reply: It is so well defined and known that all technology is based on it. In industry the descriptions of their internal organization are the starting point for the construction of all engineering products. More, some measures of complexity of a system indeed are based on its technical descriptions.

Objection #8: “Natural laws are able to produce ordered configurations”.
Reply: Organization is fully different and far higher than simple order.

Objection #9: “We know that a car is designed only because we see its designers”.
Reply: If we find a machine on Mars we infer design also without knowing its designers.

Objection #10: “Organization makes sense only if you can measure it”.
Reply: No, precise quantitative measures are only an add-on for a design inference in most cases. Similarly, to say that a woman is very beautiful I don’t need to measure her body exactly. It is true — as Norbert Wiener said — that “The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree” but recognition of organization is possible also without precise measures of the amount of information (see here).

Comments
Adapa:
The Intelligent Designer sure hates humans, doesn’t he?
That is both speciest, and sexist. Shame on you Adapa.Gary S. Gaulin
November 18, 2014
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Vishnu Now I ask you: how much prerequisite programming and information would be required by an intelligent designer/programmer to produce Earth’s animals, if any? What would it take to get such a system even started on earth? Do you have the foggiest idea?. That's a question for you, not me. I'm not the one claiming all of life is like a giant front-loaded and intelligently designed computer program with targeted goals. All evolution requires is imperfect self-replicators competing for resources and the unguided processes take over from there.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Vishnu That’s a “religious” topic. At the very least, it deals with the intent of a possible designer. I didn't mention religion at all. The simple fact is there are lots of nasty things out there that can kill us so if they were designed as you claim that says lots about the priorities of the Designer(s).Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Vishnu Of course there is a specific goal that the programmers intend: to produce objects with certain properties. The produced objects will always have certain properties no matter how hard you stomp your feet. The algorithms and fitness functions will see to it. That’s their job. You're still mistaking limits to the program with limits to the real world process being modeled. Mistaking the map for the territory. Lots of ID proponents make the same mistake. The soft robot simulator is wildly incomplete when it comes to modeling real world evolution The program was not written to model the whole biosphere, only one tiny aspect of it. Why do you keep demanding the program do something it was never written to do? There are all sorts of guides in place… put there by the intelligent designers. Still wrong. There are software limits to the size/functions of the morphospace being explored but no guides or pre-specified targets as to what may evolve in that space. The wildly different varieties of "walkers" it produced show that clearly. The process itself is unguided just like in the real world. Amazing that you seem incapable of understanding the difference.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Adapa: The Intelligent Designer sure hates humans, doesn’t he?
That's a "religious" topic. At the very least, it deals with the intent of a possible designer. How do such "arguments" help your "side"?Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Now, Adapa, If these programmers could come up with with a program that, given what we know about physics and chemistry, simulates an environment that would lead to something as sophisticated as the DNA/ribosomic replicator (which would be a quite feat, indeed), and further leading to something as sophisticated as a prokaryote, well, then I’d be knocked out. For sure. Now I ask you: how much prerequisite programming and information would be required by an intelligent designer/programmer to produce Earth’s animals, if any? What would it take to get such a system even started on earth? Do you have the foggiest idea? Please explain in detail, thanks.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Here M. Holcumbrink, here's another Behe quote for you:
Behe p.237: "Here’s something to ponder long and hard: Malaria was intentionally designed. The molecular machinery with which the parasite invades red blood cells is an exquisitely purposeful arrangement of parts. C-Eve’s children died in her arms partly because an intelligent agent deliberately made malaria or at least something very similar to it.
Malaria, Ebola, the Bubonic Plague, AIDS, Smallpox... The Intelligent Designer sure hates humans, doesn't he?Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Vishu: False. The system has many implicit guides built into it. That’s what a fitness function is. It’s a bias, a weight, an influence, to so a certain thing or go a certain way.
Adapa: The parameters put on the fitness function don’t have anything to do with the processes being modeled themselves being somehow guided or directed towards a specific goal. Same for the boundaries on the morphology. That's ridiculous to the point on incredulity. Of course there is a specific goal that the programmers intend: to produce objects with certain properties. The produced objects will always have certain properties no matter how hard you stomp your feet. The algorithms and fitness functions will see to it. That's their job. Again: You will never see one of these soft robots sprout "wings" and "fly" around their "room." Please answer: Why not?
Those are merely limits because the program is running on a computer with finite resources solving a specific problem.
It's more than that: the program is designed to produce object with certain properties. I'll say it again, so you really, really get it: You will never, ever see any of those soft robots spout "wings" and "fly" around their "room." Even if there was trillions of bytes and super computer power at their disposal. The algorithms and fitness functions cannot produce such objects as flapping wings. Or do you think they can? If so, please explain how in detail. By the way, have you reviewed their source code as I have been doing tonight?
You don’t seem to have the faintest clue about what the computer simulation is actually simulating.
I think I do.
You seem to think because the program has built in boundaries that real world evolution must have built in boundaries too.
I haven't even begun to deal with real world evolution. You haven't even come to grips with what this toy software is doing. So I have no desire to go down that rabbit trail with you yet.
To go back to the gravity example, if you write a gravity simulator and the software limits the height you can drop a simulated object from to 1000? does that mean in real life gravity doesn’t work above 1000??
No. But it does mean that the simulator is incomplete. Moreover, I am reasonably sure that a simulator that is programmed to simulate gravity (to whatever degree) would never end up having a baseball, stop midair, and fly back up into the "sky." And I'll ask you: Why not? The soft robot simulator is wildly incomplete when it comes to modeling real world evolution. Moreover, nobody I know denies that programmers can write software to mimic certain aspects of evolution. (Reread my post @ 76) But in all such cases, they are designed to evolve along certain lines and will produce objects with certain predetermined properties.
<Your don’t seem like a dumb guy but man you’re making some really dumb arguments here.
No, I think you are completely missing my point. Perhaps I am missing yours. If your point is that human engineers can write algorithms that mimic certain aspects of evolution, I agree, would never disagree, and probably nobody on UD would disagree. But it you are asserting there is something profound going on with the soft robots, when it comes to "unguided" evolution you are mistaken. There are all sorts of guides in place... put there by the intelligent designers.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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M. Holcumbrink you have clearly not read the book. You don't even understand Behe's principle argument for ID it contains. You are an example of why IDers get laughed and then ignored at by the scientific community. I won't waste any more time on your abysmal ignorance and brazen lies.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Adapa @ 74, You have clearly not read the book. The quote from p. 61 is about humans, not malaria (it even says so in the quote!). And the quote from p. 237 is in regards to the edge of evolution, which is two point mutations. Anything more than two point mutations is too improbable. So the malarial parasite with two point mutations is sitting at the edge, yet is still possible through a Darwinian process (but barely), which is Behe's main point of the book, and which is why he uses chloroquine resistance as an example. Without having to buy the book, Adapa, you can read Behe's main premise here, which is the last of three articles about chloroquine resistance that Behe wrote himself, which links to the other two. And I'm pretty sure Behe knows what is in his own book. If you are an example of the type of individual that get banned from UD, it is no marvel why it happens. Your comments are abysmally ignorant at best, and brazen lies at worst. I will not waste any more of my time on you.M. Holcumbrink
November 18, 2014
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Vishnu False. The system has many implicit guides built into it. That’s what a fitness function is. It’s a bias, a weight, an influence, to so a certain thing or go a certain way. The parameters put on the fitness function don't have anything to do with the processes being modeled themselves being somehow guided or directed towards a specific goal. Same for the boundaries on the morphology. Those are merely limits because the program is running on a computer with finite resources solving a specific problem. You don't seem to have the faintest clue about what the computer simulation is actually simulating. You seem to think because the program has built in boundaries that real world evolution must have built in boundaries too. To go back to the gravity example, if you write a gravity simulator and the software limits the height you can drop a simulated object from to 1000' does that mean in real life gravity doesn't work above 1000'? Your don't seem like a dumb guy but man you're making some really dumb arguments here.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Niwrad's design arguments are very strong. These arguments from organization stem, I believe, from holism. Allow me to explain. When we observe an organism, we observe a whole. We do not observe a bag of chemicals, as materialism/Darwinism wants us to believe. What we see is obviously more than parts. But how does one scientifically prove this? Can we measure 'wholeness', or 'unity'? Not directly. So, we have to focus on properties that result from wholeness, like 'organization'. Look how it all the parts work together! How can we explain this from the parts themselves? Why would the parts do this? How would they do this? Where does the information in order to this come from? - Another property that results from wholeness is (Wagner's) "robustness". In this post I argue that it is a mistake, wrt Darwinism, to bring this up.Box
November 18, 2014
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Adapa:
Well, I see clearly how your thinking works now...
The simulation demonstrates that unguided evolutionary processes produce morphological novelties.
False. The system has many implicit guides built into it. That's what a fitness function is. It's a bias, a weight, an influence, to so a certain thing or go a certain way. That's why, while you may get different permutations of these limited kinds of shapes, you are never going to get a "flying" creature with "wings" (flapping or otherwise), nor a conveyer belt traversing around the display, nor the face of the child. Their fitness functions simply do not have those sorts of rewards in place to produce such "objects." Their fitness functions can only generate objects with a certain pre-defined limited set of properties. Moreover, the soft robot functions will never produce anything remotely as sophisticated as the functions themselves and the infrastructure it takes to run them.
There was no front loading of the morphotypes;
No front loading of specific ones, but it does have specifications and boundries for what can occur, given the fitness functions. Do you think just any shape or function can emerge out of that program?
the ‘fitness function’ is just a simulation of environmental selection pressures. No smuggled in “active information”, no special tricks. Just plain vanilla evolutionary processes doing their thing.
Bwahaha. "Just" he says. That just seems to roll off your fingertips. You're dead wrong. I've been studying their source code. There are limits to the kind of shapes their code can produce. You will never see any of these shapes sprout "wings" and "fly" around the "room." Or do you think otherwise? Do you think their soft robot program is capable of generating "robots" that sprout "wings" and "fly" around their "room"? Please give a detailed explanation for your answer one way or the other.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Vishnu Can you demonstrate that completely unguided evolution could have produce the grand sweep of life without intelligent front-loading of information and fitness functions? The simulation demonstrates that unguided evolutionary processes produce morphological novelties. There was no front loading of the morphotypes; the 'fitness function' is just a simulation of environmental selection pressures. No smuggled in "active information", no special tricks. Just plain vanilla evolutionary processes doing their thing. All programmed by highly intelligent humans. Not an example of completely unguided evolution. Don't be dense. If you program a simple gravity simulator that doesn't mean gravity is guided. This board needs a facepalm emoticon. I just love when ID-Creationists try to hand wave away computer simulation results because the computer was intelligently designed or programmed. I asked (myself), “how long will those intelligent designers (those guys who wrote the [soft robot] program) have to wait until their program generates an “animal” that sprouts wings and flies around?” Looking at their fitness functions, I can say the answer is “never.” There will be no soft flying robots in that simulator, unless, of course, the intelligent designers put fitness and animation function in there for “flying.” Another facepalm worthy statement. The program was looking at one small specific problem - ground locomotion - being solved by unguided evolution. It wasn't trying to recreate the entire Earth biosphere. Good grief...Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Adapa, Another thing you're not going to see this soft robot program do is create something that looks like a conveyor belt that loops around the screen. It will never build anything that looks like a mousetrap. it will never build anything that has gears. More "edges" to its evolution. By the way, I found a section of code in one of their modules that says, "this functionality was never coded." That kinda made me laugh a little with a slight ironical tone.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Adapa, I asked (myself), “how long will those intelligent designers (those guys who wrote the [soft robot] program) have to wait until their program generates an “animal” that sprouts wings and flies around?” Looking at their fitness functions, I can say the answer is "never." There will be no soft flying robots in that simulator, unless, of course, the intelligent designers put fitness and animation function in there for "flying." There is an "edge" to their evolution.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Adapa and soft robots, I've got the source code and am looking it over now. So, now....
Adapa: Chance alone can’t do it. Necessity (laws) alone can’t do it. But iterative processes that combine both chance and necessity with selection driven feedback do it quite nicely. Evolution is just such a process.
Can you demonstrate that completely unguided evolution could have produce the grand sweep of life without intelligent front-loading of information and fitness functions?
It’s been empirically observed to produce both increased complexity and organization in life forms.
What increased "organization" are you referring to?
There are numerous evolution simulating programs readily available where you can watch the combination of simple chance and laws produce all sorts of amazing and functional objects.
All programmed by highly intelligent humans. Not an example of completely unguided evolution.
Here is a good example where computer generated “soft robots” using just simple evolutionary processes evolved different ways to walk.
See my previous post.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Adapa and the soft robots, I just watched the video. Clever, cute, and fun. However, the first question that popped in my mind was, "how long will those intelligent designers (those guys who wrote the program) have to wait until their program generates an "animal" that spouts wings and flies around?" Second question is: can I get a copy of their source code? (I'll try.) Obviously this soft robot program required an immense number of prerequisite processes and information to get started. For example, computers, factories, transportation systems, electicity generators, etc, etc, that built them (again, by by intelligent designers). And let's not forgot the the designers themselves, with their 100 trillion brain cells each, with dendrite connections into the 100 (or more) trillions, wired up in a unique way that allows them to design factories, computers, and cute little robot programs. Which leads to my third question: how much prerequisite programming and information of Earth's animals was required by an intelligent source? Personally, I'm not very bowled over by this cute toy that some intelligent students designed and programmed. I've known long for a long time that humans can devise evolutionary algorithms, and self-modifying ones. (I use them myself.) But in every case, where the origin is not in dispute, it always comes from some very intelligent human. So congrats to them, they've demonstrated once again that humans can be quite clever, and write a program on a very sophisticated computer to simulate a very limited aspect of biological evolution. Whoopie! Now, if they can come up with with a program that, given what we know about physics and chemistry, simulates an environment that would lead to something as sophisticated as the DNA/ribosomic replicator (which would be quite enough), and further leading to something as sophisticated as a prokaryote, well, then I'd be knocked out. For sure.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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Adapa, Even if you assume an evolutionary simulation has no more intelligent input beyond the initial setup/algorithm, and the algorithm iteratively stumbles upon "solutions" that increase its fitness thereby producing "new" information, you have to ask yourself a few questions: 1) in real life biological systems, probabilistically most random mutations would be considered errors and this would be systematically disastrous unless you have the error-detection and prevention mechanism in place, while for computer programs it's merely a condition that is treated passively (ie: no harm done), one therefore need not worry in a computer simulation about increasing the iterative frequency - ie: accumulating errors until those errors turn out to be a "solution". 2) Many evolutionary algorithms/simulations work their way top-down/reverse ie: one would specify the input parameters considered the output, the algorithm then traverses context-specific "search space" until the results matches the input. The results could be a circuit diagram/schematic or a new antenna or whatever. Under this circumstance additional intelligent input was obviously required, had it not, you may have had ANY solution, and that ANY solution would likely be non-functional.computerist
November 18, 2014
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M. Holcumbrink You are mistaken. Behe believes the “evolutionary warfare” between the malarial parasite and humans is within the boundary of what he calls the edge of evolution, because it involves at most two coordinated point mutations. He actually suggests a maximum number of coordinated mutations that a Darwinian process would be able to stumble upon, which is based on empirical data (can’t remember what it is – something like 3 or 4 point mutations, but it’s in the single digits). Sorry M. Holcumbrink if you did read the book you have completely misunderstood Behe's argument for ID. When talking about the malaria's becoming resistant to current drugs, resistance that required two mutations he says:
Behe p.61: "No mutation that is of the same complexity as chloroquine resistance in malaria arose by Darwinian evolution in the line leading to humans in the past ten million years" and Behe p. 237: "In other words, more than two evolutionary steps would have to be skipped to achieve resistance, effectively ruling out Darwinian evolution."
Since you missed the whole point of the book I don't know what else to say.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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niwrad If that new “part/feature” is really organization then it must be potentially contained in the GA just from the beginning, by means of what Dembski and Mark call “active information” frontloaded into the system. You cannot get something from nothing. Then demonstrate it, don't just assert it. Use the 'walking robots' example and show me where any additional "active information" above and beyond evolutionary processes was introduced.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Adapa @ 69, You are mistaken. Behe believes the “evolutionary warfare” between the malarial parasite and humans is within the boundary of what he calls the edge of evolution, because it involves at most two coordinated point mutations. He actually suggests a maximum number of coordinated mutations that a Darwinian process would be able to stumble upon, which is based on empirical data (can’t remember what it is – something like 3 or 4 point mutations, but it’s in the single digits). Adapa, have you even read the book?M. Holcumbrink
November 18, 2014
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Adapa #65
If a GA or an actual evolutionary process integrates a new part or new feature to an existing system which they are empirically observed to do then it has created new organization by definition.
If that new "part/feature" is really organization then it must be potentially contained in the GA just from the beginning, by means of what Dembski and Mark call "active information" frontloaded into the system. You cannot get something from nothing.niwrad
November 18, 2014
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Adapa: It’s still not an evolution simulator so has no relevance to the “walking robot” example I provided.
I'll have to see about that. At any rate, I disagree. The Weasel system certainly evolves, but in an intelligent way toward a certain goal... unless you have some specific, limited definition of what "evolve" means. Intelligently designed evolution is still evolution.
V: It’s impossible to answer the question without having detailed understanding of all the processes and information in the system at its initial condition. A: Which means that claims actual [blind] evolutionary processes have barriers are specious at best.
It's an open question.
Science has quite a bit of evidence on all of those topics. Take body plan development for example. In the last two decades a whole new branch of science called evolutionary developmental biology (EvoDevo for short) has arisen. There is a ton of work on HOX genes and how they produce body plans. A good layman’s overview is the book Endless Forms Most Beautiful by biologist Sean Carroll.
I know all about it. I'll have more to say about it. I'll leave you with this for now, HOX genes appears to me to be part of an intelligently designed evolution. Not a blind evolutionarily system.Vishnu
November 18, 2014
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M. Holcumbrink Regarding what Behe says in Edge of Evolution, you will need to cite a chapter and page number. It is my understanding that Behe believes chloroquine resistance in malaria is the effect of a random mutation, not that chloroquine resistance was designed. Behe's whole point in the book is that things like certain malarial drug resistance are beyond evolution's capability to produce and therefore must have been designed. Hence the title "Edge of Evolution".Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Andre Does Adapa believe what he says? Went it is fast its a beneficial trait, when its slow its a beneficial trait….. You still don't understand the concept that beneficial is only in reference to the local environment. If you're in a place where speed helps you either catch food or escape predators then speed is beneficial (gazelles, cheetahs). If you're in an environment where speed isn't a benefit but moving slow to conserve energy or avoid detection helps you survive then moving slow is better (tortoises). Basic concepts here. Basic concepts. The fit survive and those who survive are fit….. That isn't the definition of reproductive fitness. Fitness is your probability of surviving and reproducing relative to your neighbors. Not all of the fittest survive, not all of the survivors are the most fit but on average across the population that is the outcome. Another basic concept.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Adapa @ 60, Regarding what Behe says in Edge of Evolution, you will need to cite a chapter and page number. It is my understanding that Behe believes chloroquine resistance in malaria is the effect of a random mutation, not that chloroquine resistance was designed.M. Holcumbrink
November 18, 2014
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Adapa @ 60, I’m not suggesting that the diseases were not designed as-is, but that they were never meant to be inside the human body. Ebola apparently does not harm bats, but is deadly to humans. Likewise, screws are beneficial when used as fasteners, but are not that great of a lubricant. And in regards to there being two designers, that is at least plausible, though I like the idea of decay being the main cause of much evil in the world, as opposed to sabotage, which is certainly a very distinct possibility; like when you pour sugar in someone’s gas tank. Is it not the holy grail of Governments across the globe to design the perfect deadly pathogen? Or at least to weaponize existing pathogens commonly found in the soil? Design can be implemented with evil intent, friend. That should go without saying. I hope that’s clear enough.M. Holcumbrink
November 18, 2014
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niwrad After all “Ada”, beyond to be the name of a famous computer programming language especially used in avionics, seems a fem name… My user name isn't "Ada". “Meanwhile there’s still no barrier to the accumulation of GA or evolutionary changes.” These changes are zero from the point of view of organization If a GA or an actual evolutionary process integrates a new part or new feature to an existing system which they are empirically observed to do then it has created new organization by definition.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Does Adapa believe what he says? Went it is fast its a beneficial trait, when its slow its a beneficial trait..... The fit survive and those who survive are fit..... Adapa some advice, a theory that explains everything, really explains nothing... Evolution materialist style is such a theory....Andre
November 18, 2014
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