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Of coin-tosses, expectation, materialistic question-begging and forfeit of credibility by materialists

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Yesterday, I crossed a Rubicon, for cause, on seeing the refusal to stop from enabling denial and correct and deal with slander on the part of even the most genteel of the current wave of critics.

It is time to face what we are dealing with squarely: ideologues on the attack.  (Now, in a wave of TSZ denizens back here at UD and hoping to swarm down, twist into pretzels, ridicule and dismiss the basic case for design.)

coin-flip
Flipping a coin . . . is it fair? (Cr: Making Near Future Predictions, fair use)

Sal C has been the most prolific recent contributor at UD, and a pivotal case he has put forth is the discovery of a box of five hundred coins, all heads.

What is the best explanation?

The talking point gymnastics to avoid the obvious conclusion that have been going on for a while now, have been sadly instructive on the mindset of the committed ideological materialist and that of his or her fellow travellers.

(For those who came in 30 years or so late, “fellow travellers” is a term of art that described those who made common cause with the outright Marxists, on one argument or motive or another. I will not cite Lenin’s less polite term for such.  The term, fellow traveller, is of obviously broader applicability and relevance today.)

Now, I intervened just now in a thread that further follows up on the coin tossing exercise and wish to headline the comment:

_____________

>> I observe:

NR, at 5: >> Biological organisms do not look designed >>

The above clip and the wider thread provide a good example of the sort of polarisation and refusal to examine matters squarely on the merits that too often characterises objectors to design theory.

coin_prob_percent
A plot of typical patterns of coin tossing, showing the overwhelming trend for the average percent of H’s to move to the mean, as a percentage even as the absolute difference between H and T will diverge across time.  (Credit: problemgambling.ca, fair use)

In the case of coin tossing, all heads, all tails, alternating H and T, etc. are all obvious patterns that are simply describable (i.e. without in effect quoting the strings). Such patterns can be assigned a set of special zones, Z = {z1, z2, z3 . . . zn} of one or more outcomes, in the space of possibilities, W.

Thus is effected a partition of the configuration space.

It is quite obvious that |W| >> |Z|, overwhelmingly so; let us symbolise this |W| >> . . . > |Z|.

Now, we put forth the Bernoulli-Laplace indifference assumption that is relevant here through the stipulation of a fair coin. (We can examine symmetry etc of a coin, or do frequency tests to see that such will for practical purposes be close enough. It is not hard to see that unless a coin is outrageously biased, the assumption is reasonable. [BTW, this implies that it is formally possible that if a fair coin is tossed 500 times, it is logically possible that it will be all heads. But that is not the pivotal point.])

When we do an exercise of tossing, we are in fact doing a sample of W, in which the partition that a given outcome, si in S [the set of possible samples], comes from, will be dominated by relative statistical weight. S is of course such that |S| >> . . . > |W|. That is, there are far more ways to sample from W in a string of actual samples s1, s2, . . . sn, than there are number of configs in W.

(This is where the Marks-Dembski search for a search challenge, S4S, comes in. Sampling the samplings can be a bigger task than sampling the set of possibilities.)

Where, now, we have a needle in haystack problem that on the gamut of the solar system [our practical universe for chemical level atomic interactions], the number of samples that is possible as an actual exercise is overwhelmingly smaller than S, and indeed than W.

Under these circumstances, we take a sample si, 500 tosses.

The balance of the partitions is such that by all but certainty, we will find a cluster of H & T in no particular order, close to 250 H: 250 T. The farther away one gets from that balance, the less likely it will be, through the sharp peaked-ness of the binomial distribution of fair coin tosses.

Under these circumstances, we have no good reason to expect to see a special pattern like 500 H, etc. Indeed, such a unique and highly noticeable config will predictably — with rather high reliability — not be observed once on the gamut of the observed solar system, even were the solar system dedicated to doing nothing but tossing coins for its lifespan.

That is chance manifest in coin tossing is not a plausible account for 500 H, or the equivalent, a line of 500 coins in a tray all H’s.

However, if we were now to come upon a tray with 500 coins, all H’s, we can very plausibly account for it on a known, empirically grounded causal pattern: intelligent designers exist and have been known to set highly contingent systems to special values suited to their purposes.

Indeed, such are the only empirically warranted sources.

Where, for instance we are just such intelligences.

So, the reasonable person coming on a tray of 500 coins in a row, all H, will infer that per best empirically warranted explanation, design is the credible cause. (And that person will infer the same if a coin tossing exercises presented as fair coin tossing, does the equivalent. We can reliably know that design is involved without knowing the mechanism.)

Nor does this change if the discoverer did not see the event happening. That is, from a highly contingent outcome that does not fit chance very well but does fit design well, one may properly infer design as explanation.

Indeed, that pattern of a specific, recognisable pattern utterly unlikely by chance but by no means inherently unlikely to the point of dismissal by design, is a plausible sign of design as best causal explanation.

The same would obtain if instead of 500 H etc, we discovered that the coins were in a pattern that spelled out, using ASCII code, remarks in English or object code for a computer, etc. In this case, the pattern is recognised as a functionally specific, complex one.

Why then, do we see such violent opposition to inferring design on FSCO/I etc in non-toy cases?

Obviously, because objectors are making or are implying the a priori stipulation (often unacknowledged, sometimes unrecognised) that it is practically certain that no designer is POSSIBLE at the point in question.

For under such a circumstance, chance is the only reasonable candidate left to account for high contingency. (Mechanical necessity does not lead to high contingency.)

So, we see why there is a strong appearance of design, and we see why there is a reluctance or even violently hostile refusal to accept that that appearance can indeed be a good reason to accept that on the inductively reliable sign FSCO/I and related analysis, design is the best causal explanation.

In short, we are back to the problem of materialist ideology dressed up in a lab coat.

I think the time has more than come to expose that, and to highlight the problems with a priori materialism as a worldview, whether it is dressed up in a lab coat or not.

We can start with Haldane’s challenge:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter. [[“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]

This and other related challenges (cf here on in context) render evolutionary materialism so implausible as a worldview that we may safely dismiss it. Never mind how it loves to dress up in a lab coat and shale the coat at us as if to frighten us.

So, the reasonable person, in the face of such evidence, will accept the credibility of the sign — FSCO/I — and the possibility of design that such a strong and empirically grounded appearance points to.

But, notoriously, ideologues are not reasonable persons.

For further illustration, observe above the attempt to divert the discussion into definitions of what an intelligent and especially a conscious intelligent agent is.

Spoken of course, by a conscious intelligent agent who is refusing to accept that the billions of us on the ground are examples of what intelligent designers are. Nope, until you can give a precising definition acceptable to him [i.e. inevitably, consistent with evolutionary materialism — which implies or even denies that such agency is possible leading to self referential absurdity . . . ], he is unwilling to accept the testimony of his own experience and observation.

I call that a breach of common sense and self referential incoherence.>>

____________

The point is, the credibility of materialist ideologues is fatally undermined by their closed-minded demand to conform to unreasonable a prioris. Lewontin’s notorious cat- out- of- the- bag statement in NYRB, January 1997 is emblematic:

. . . . the problem is to get [the public] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . .

[T]he practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. of course, it is a commonplace materialist talking point to dismiss such a cite as “quote mining. I suggest that if you are tempted to believe that convenient dismissal, kindly cf the linked, where you will see the more extensive cite and notes.]

No wonder, in November that year, ID thinker Philip Johnson rebutted:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Too often, such ideological closed-mindedness and question-begging multiplied by a propensity to be unreasonable, ruthless and even nihilistic or at least to be an enabler going along with such ruthlessness.

Which ends up back at the point that when — not if, such an utterly incoherent system is simply not sustainable, and is so damaging to the moral stability of a society that it will inevitably self-destruct [cf. Plato’s warning here, given 2,350 years ago]  — such materialism lies utterly defeated and on the ash-heap of history, there will come a day of reckoning for the enablers, who will need to take a tour of their shame and explain or at least ponder why they went along with the inexcusable.

Hence the ugly but important significance of the following picture in which, shortly after its liberation, American troops forced citizens of nearby Wiemar to tour Buchenwald so that  the people of Germany who went along as enablers with what was done in the name of their nation by utterly nihilistic men they allowed to rule over them, could not ever deny the truth of their shame thereafter:

Buchenwald01
A tour of shame at Buchenwald, showing here the sad, shocking but iconic moment when a woman from the nearby city of Wiemar could not but avert her eyes in horror and shame for what nihilistic men — enabled by the passivity of the German people in the face of the rise of an obviously destructive ideology since 1932 — had done in the name of her now forever tainted nation

It is time to heed Francis Schaeffer in his turn of the 1980’s series, Whatever Happened to the Human Race, an expose of the implications and agendas of evolutionary materialist secular humanism that was ever so much derided and dismissed at the time, but across time has proved to be dead on target even as we now have reached the threshold of post-birth abortion and other nihilistic horrors:

[youtube 8uoFkVroRyY]

And, likewise, we need to heed a preview of the tour of shame to come, Expelled by Ben Stein:

[youtube V5EPymcWp-g]

Finally, we need to pause and listen to Weikart’s warning from history in this lecture:

[youtube w_5EwYpLD6A]

Yes, I know, these things are shocking, painful, even offensive to the genteel; who are too often to be found in enabling denial of the patent facts and will be prone to blame the messenger instead of deal with the problem.

However, as a descendant of slaves who is concerned for our civilisation’s trends in our time, I must speak. Even as the horrors of the slave ship and the plantation had to be painfully, even shockingly exposed two centuries and more past.

I must ask you, what genteel people sipping their slave-sugared tea 200 years ago,  thought of images like this:

African_woman_slave_trade
An African captive about to be whipped on a slave-trade ship, revealing the depravity of ruthless men able to do as they please with those in their power (CR: Wiki)

Sometimes, the key issues at stake in a given day are not nice and pretty, and some ugly things need to be faced, if horrors of the magnitude of the century just past are to be averted in this new Millennium. END

Comments
Sal:
I read by I can’t always understand what is being said.
What does that mean? Are you in support of what KF posts or not?Jerad
June 29, 2013
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Second, it is indeed the case that reliably, with all but certainty, on the gamut of the solar system, we would not arrive at the 500 H even if we were to convert the solar system into a giant, ultrafast [Chem rxn speed] coin tossing machine. Picking, blindly, a one straw sized sample from a cubical haystack 1,000 light years on the side is not a way to ever be confident of getting anything but the overwhelming bulk.
Look, it's a simple situation, its it possible or not. Cast aside all the flowery language. Is it possible?
Your remarks about fewest assumptions and the like are a disguised, self-congratulatory way for you to assert that you believe a designer at the relevant point in time and place was IMPOSSIBLE.
Which shows how little you understand my approach. And so it goes.
That is, a reliable sign of design is evidence of design, whether or not it is perfect and beyond dispute evidence of design. (For instance that is close indeed to the basis on which we accept the 2nd law of thermodynamics: provisional but tested and found reliable inductive generalisation.)
What you find reliable others will dispute. Along with the notion that sign of design is evidence of design. And WTF does it have to do with the 2nd law of thermodynamics? And your last sentence, dude, that's just random.
You will find that there is a very specific context of dealing with denial of abuses by nihilists rooted in amoral worldviews [there are three whole movies on the subject embedded in the OP], by passivity, that is the context of the issue on tours of shame, and that the case of informing people about the horrific realities of the slave trade — there is more, on things like throwing slaves to the sharks in the ocean and more, much more — was a major part of awakening the conscience of the British people to abolish the slave trade and to abolish the slave system after that.
Good lord. Can anyone make sense of this?
Those are the sort of things that are at stake when you begin to resort to slanderously associateing people with Nazis, the exact context for the OP. (I will bet you did not read the onward link on the incident at TSZ, and the further incident of enabling behaviour for such slander by blatantly false denial that what happened, happened. FYI, when you start pushing people into the same boats with Nazis, you are declaring open season on them, and I am not going to quietly accept that sort of bullying and defamation — the Jews of Germany made that mistake 80 years ago, and paid a bitter price. So, now you need to ask yourself to what extent your own behaviour just above turns into enabling.) And believe you me there are serious matters at stake today with the ongoing rise of evolutionary materialism as a culturally domineering — yes I mean just that — worldview.
The Jews of Germany made what mistake 80 years ago? Really? You are going to stand by that claim? They are complicit in their demise? Really? They could have done something differently and prevented the holocaust. Is that what you're claiming? You best think long and hard about such a claim. Really long and hard. Sal, Barry, Denyse, Donald . . Are you standing by this? Are you supporting this stance? Your names are on this blog. And you will be associated with this stance unless you say otherwise.Jerad
June 29, 2013
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Jerad asked, Sal, are you really in agreement with this?
I read by I can't always understand what is being said.
Seriously? Don’t you think your own credibility is at stake here?
I have no reputation worth defending. I'm at UD and TSZ to learn and refine my thoughts. My essays and comments are a public diary of my thought process. I occasionally like having my ideas challenged and debated. This isn't a website where immutable pronouncements are made, it's a place to put forward ideas have them debated, improved, and occasionally thrown out.scordova
June 29, 2013
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KF,
Not interested in other threads...
You're interested in lots of other threads, KF. The reason you (and your fellow commenters) are not interested in that one is that you know you would lose the debate. Only Joe and BA77, who don't know any better, are persisting.
...and the linked highlights the problems with mind and morality that evo mat faces. In fact it self-refutes.
"Evo mat" doesn't self-refute, but even if it did, that wouldn't solve your problem. Your position isn't merely the denial of "evo mat". You positively believe in an immaterial soul, and so your problem is to reconcile that belief with the evidence from split-brain patients. It's amazing to me that so many people here at UD believe in the immaterial soul, yet none of you can defend it against the split-brain evidence. Doesn't that bother you?
Second, it is indeed the case that reliably, with all but certainty, on the gamut of the solar system, we would not arrive at the 500 H even if we were to convert the solar system into a giant, ultrafast [Chem rxn speed] coin tossing machine. Picking, blindly, a one straw sized sample from a cubical haystack 1,000 light years on the side is not a way to ever be confident of getting anything but the overwhelming bulk.
It's good to see that you've backed off from your original statement, which was:
Start with the little toy example of 500 coins and why, reliably we would not on the gamut of he solar system, by blind chance tossing ever arrive at 500 H’s as an outcome. [emphasis mine]
Your original statement is wrong, but your revised version is better.
The presence of something like a tray full of 500 coins all H, is a sign of design, and so, more broadly is FSCO/I.
Only if non-chance, non-design hypotheses are unlikely. That's the problem with Sal's homochirality argument. He thinks that if he rules out pure chance, then design is the only remaining possibility. It's not, of course. He also needs to consider the possibility that homochirality is the result of evolution (or some other non-chance, non-design mechanism). If he could demonstrate that the probability of 'homochirality by evolution' is as low as the probability of 'homochirality by pure chance', then he might have a case. He hasn't done so, and I don't believe he can. Until he does, his homochirality argument fails.keiths
June 29, 2013
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jerad: 1: cf the just above. 2: Your remarks about fewest assumptions and the like are a disguised, self-congratulatory way for you to assert that you believe a designer at the relevant point in time and place was IMPOSSIBLE. 3: I assure you, that is a tough claim to ground. And it is an approach that is inconsistent with a LOT of science. 4: A sensible view, instead, is that something like FSCO/I is an inductively well demonstrated sign of design, and so if we see it, it is reasonable, however provisionally, to infer design as best empirically grounded explanation. 5: That is, a reliable sign of design is evidence of design, whether or not it is perfect and beyond dispute evidence of design. (For instance that is close indeed to the basis on which we accept the 2nd law of thermodynamics: provisional but tested and found reliable inductive generalisation.) KF PS: have you actually read the OP with any reasonable care and attention? You will find that there is a very specific context of dealing with denial of abuses by nihilists rooted in amoral worldviews [there are three whole movies on the subject embedded in the OP], by passivity, that is the context of the issue on tours of shame, and that the case of informing people about the horrific realities of the slave trade -- there is more, on things like throwing slaves to the sharks in the ocean and more, much more -- was a major part of awakening the conscience of the British people to abolish the slave trade and to abolish the slave system after that. Those are the sort of things that are at stake when you begin to resort to slanderously associateing people with Nazis, the exact context for the OP. (I will bet you did not read the onward link on the incident at TSZ, and the further incident of enabling behaviour for such slander by blatantly false denial that what happened, happened. FYI, when you start pushing people into the same boats with Nazis, you are declaring open season on them, and I am not going to quietly accept that sort of bullying and defamation -- the Jews of Germany made that mistake 80 years ago, and paid a bitter price. So, now you need to ask yourself to what extent your own behaviour just above turns into enabling.) And believe you me there are serious matters at stake today with the ongoing rise of evolutionary materialism as a culturally domineering -- yes I mean just that -- worldview. kairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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KS: Not interested in other threads, and the linked highlights the problems with mind and morality that evo mat faces. In fact it self-refutes. Second, it is indeed the case that reliably, with all but certainty, on the gamut of the solar system, we would not arrive at the 500 H even if we were to convert the solar system into a giant, ultrafast [Chem rxn speed] coin tossing machine. Picking, blindly, a one straw sized sample from a cubical haystack 1,000 light years on the side is not a way to ever be confident of getting anything but the overwhelming bulk. And, that is the optimistic case with every atom in the solar system every 10^-14 s as an observer for 10^17 s. There are somethings that are simply nor plausibly observable, that are reliably unobservable based on blind chance and/or me3chanical necessity. Those same things are routinely produced by intelligence and indeed are inductively explored to be only and strongly associated with intelligent action. That gives us an epistemic right to treat them as reliable signs -- as opposed to whatever may be abstractly logically possible. The presence of something like a tray full of 500 coins all H, is a sign of design, and so, more broadly is FSCO/I. In short, a sensible person, on seeing such a sign would reasonably and for good cause infer to design as material cause, which trends to come with an entity capable of designing. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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Keiths @53:
The goal is far more modest. These programs demonstrate that Darwinian processes have the ability to generate adaptations, and they provide a convenient and simplified environment in which to study the process through which that happens. So of course these programs assume the prerequisites of Darwinian evolution: inheritance with random mutation and natural selection. Without those, you don’t have a Darwinian process, and if you don’t have a Darwinian process, you can’t very well study it! ID proponents (at least the sane ones) accept the reality of inheritance, random mutation and natural selection — after all, who would be silly enough to deny that those happen? So there is no doubt, even among IDers, that Darwinian evolution exists in nature. The question is whether it is powerful enough to explain what we observe.
I'm well aware of that. And I agree with you that one key question is indeed whether Darwinian processes are powerful enough to explain what we observe. But there is another critical question. Namely, do the Darwinian processes programmed in the computer actually, in reality represent anything resembling the real world. Everyone agrees that if sight successive steps from A to Z exist, and if each step along the way is easily traversable, and if each step confers a survival advantage, and if each step is carefully rewarded along the way, and if we have enough organisms, and if we have enough time, then you can get from A to Z. And the fact that I can construct something through such a process that ends up having multiple inter-related parts, each of which is required for the final function is not a surprise. Shoot, I can build you the Space Shuttle using that approach. That is not even in dispute. So statements like Elizabeth's @64 are simply wrong. The question is not whether such a process, with all its assumptions, can produce something. Everyone knows it can. The question is whether such a process exists in the real world. No genetic algorithm has answered that question, and until they simulate, with at least some level of fidelity, real-world processes, the entire effort is an exercise in irrelevance. Notably, with the oft-cited Avida study (in Nature, if memory serves), the authors acknowledged that if the program required a couple of parts to come along simultaneously that their digital organisms never "evolved" the final goal. That was precisely Behe's point. He argues there is good reason to believe that -- in reality, not in silico -- there are molecular machines that require multiple parts to come along at once and that such machines are not amenable to a Darwinian process. Ironically, then, the main result from the Avida study (at least the result that didn't assume away all the key issues) confirmed Behe's suspicion. Avida most certainly doesn't prove that Darwinian processes can build the amazing things we see in biology.
Avida and other similar programs show that Darwinian evolution is quite powerful.
The certainly don't. What they show is that if you assume away all the challenging and relevant issues you can get some interesting things. Just as importantly, they show that if you let a little reality intrude, they don't do much of anything interesting.Eric Anderson
June 29, 2013
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Now, we put forth the Bernoulli-Laplace indifference assumption that is relevant here through the stipulation of a fair coin. (We can examine symmetry etc of a coin, or do frequency tests to see that such will for practical purposes be close enough. It is not hard to see that unless a coin is outrageously biased, the assumption is reasonable. [BTW, this implies that it is formally possible that if a fair coin is tossed 500 times, it is logically possible that it will be all heads. But that is not the pivotal point.]) When we do an exercise of tossing, we are in fact doing a sample of W, in which the partition that a given outcome, si in S [the set of possible samples], comes from, will be dominated by relative statistical weight. S is of course such that |S| >> . . . > |W|. That is, there are far more ways to sample from W in a string of actual samples s1, s2, . . . sn, than there are number of configs in W. (This is where the Marks-Dembski search for a search challenge, S4S, comes in. Sampling the samplings can be a bigger task than sampling the set of possibilities.) Where, now, we have a needle in haystack problem that on the gamut of the solar system [our practical universe for chemical level atomic interactions], the number of samples that is possible as an actual exercise is overwhelmingly smaller than S, and indeed than W.
Why is it so hard just to say things simply and clearly?
Under these circumstances, we have no good reason to expect to see a special pattern like 500 H, etc. Indeed, such a unique and highly noticeable config will predictably — with rather high reliability — not be observed once on the gamut of the observed solar system, even were the solar system dedicated to doing nothing but tossing coins for its lifespan. That is chance manifest in coin tossing is not a plausible account for 500 H, or the equivalent, a line of 500 coins in a tray all H’s.
But it could happen. You've said nothing which precludes that. And, more importantly, there is no reason to ascribe such an occurrence to anything other than dumb luck, chance, which does not require the supposition of some undefined, unspecified and otherwise undetected intelligent agent. It's not a matter of saying no designer is possible but rather looking at the explanation which includes the fewest unproven assumptions.
And, perhaps you have not noticed, but the rhetorical pattern of red herring distractors, led away to strawmen caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight to polarise, cloud and poison the atmosphere is a strongly marked pattern of too many evolutionary materialism advocates, one that reflects exactly the rhetorical and agitation rules advocated by Saul Alinski, whose tactics are exactly what has come to dominate far too much of discussion in our day. It is highly significant as a lesson from history that Plato in The Laws Bk X anticipated what would happen based on the case of Alcibiades and co.
Oh dear, feeling a bit under pressure are we? You still seem to think that your view is an all-or-nothing situation. We're with your or against you in all ways.
I am sure by now that you know that the twisted about, turnspeech accusation or insinuation [especially in the form of pretending that that which was true of that movement was so for others -- usually falsely] was a favourite ploy of a certain unlamented movement from 85 – 70 years ago and especially its two chief propagandists.
Sigh. We disagree with you so we're some kind of evil.
It is in that wider context that I have had occasion to speak to the march of folly, to the tendency to abuse those who do not toe the fashionable materialist party line, and that of too many to be enablers by denial and passivity. Which brings us full circle to the relevance of key cases from history on where when the horror was defeated, there was a forced tour of shame — classically that by the people of Wiemar of Buchenwald as is captured in the iconic photo in the OP. It is also where it is highly relevant that the expose of slave ship and slave plantation conditions materially contributed to the breaking of the trade then of the institution itself
I think you're equating us ID-denialists with people who allowed the holocaust. I could be wrong but that is a blatant, non-sensical and insulting charge.
Of course the matter starts in the warm little pond or the like where from chemicals and physical forces that are blind, one needs to plausibly account for OOL of life or the Darwinist tree of life has no root. The FSCO/I in life as seen and as analysed, makes this a first uncrossed gap that for a long time now has not been cogently and sufficiently addressed. Info gap, not 500 bits, but much bigger, credibly 100k – 1 Mn bits. And after that, to get to the islands of function for complex life forms with new body plans looks like 10 – 100+ mn bits each. Equally unbridged. Where for every bit past 500, the scale of the info space DOUBLES. Just moving to 501 bits means that the size of the figurative haystack for a solar system level search moves to 1,260 LY on the side, not just 1,000. 502 bits requires 1,590 LY on the side, 503 requires 2,000 LY on the side and so forth. Where in each case, we are sampling — per the resources of the solar system applied across its lifespan — the equivalent of a one straw sized sample.
Hard to even find a complete sentence in that. Let alone a coherent concept. Sal, are you really in agreement with this? Seriously? Don't you think your own credibility is at stake here?Jerad
June 29, 2013
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keiths is still confused. I never tried to defend an immaterial soul. I just easily refuted his feeble-minded attempt at refuting the premise of an immaterial soul.Joe
June 29, 2013
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KF, My beef was with the way you phrased this:
Start with the little toy example of 500 coins and why, reliably we would not on the gamut of he solar system, by blind chance tossing ever arrive at 500 H’s as an outcome.
To say that we "reliably would not ever arrive at 500 H's" sure sounds like a statement of impossibility to me. But of course it's not impossible; just very, very unlikely. I think the problem originates in Dembski's introduction of the "universal probability bound." Its name, and the way it is calculated, invite readers to conclude that events beyond the bound are impossible. In reality, the UPB is mostly arbitrary. It just needs to be small enough that people, upon seeing an event that falls beyond it, will not be satisified with the explanation "that was just a fluke." It is always possible that it was due to pure chance, but if the possibility is remote enough, people will look for alternative explanations (including evolution and design).keiths
June 29, 2013
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KF, I'm not trying to divert the thread. I'm inviting you to join the other thread, where bornagain77 and Joe are trying unsuccessfully to defend the notion of an immaterial soul against the evidence from observations of split-brain patients. Are you up to the challenge? It's interesting that while fools rush in, the more intelligent IDers seem to be avoiding the topic. As you would say, that speaks volumes about their lack of confidence. Are you confident in your ability to reconcile the soul with the facts regarding split-brain patients?keiths
June 29, 2013
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F/N: I see KS is trying to divert the thread to a discussion of the immaterial soul. Sounds like a distraction effort, which tells us something about the balance of the above on the merits. Of course, what evolutionary materialists need to ground is the reality of both mind and morals that makes us a knowing, morally governed creature. Cf here on, the result of looking at this topic is that evolutionary materialism is self referentially incoherent and necessarily false, never mind how it likes to dress up in a lab coat and shake it at us. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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PPS: Dollar to a doughnut, that the default values were knowingly set to give the outcomes that were desired, regardless of the empirical evidence that pointed to how unrealistic such values were.
Sorry to be anal but given the price of a doughnut is about 80 cents today, if its price rises above one dollar, that expectation value of that wager will no longer be favorable in the future. :-) Just a caution, that's all, but I agree with the point you're trying to make.scordova
June 29, 2013
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PPS: Dollar to a doughnut, that the default values were knowingly set to give the outcomes that were desired, regardless of the empirical evidence that pointed to how unrealistic such values were.kairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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unless of course you really enjoy the tortures of shouting matches.
Here is a video of a Darwinist arguing with (presumably) a Creationist. The Creationist simply held up a sign that said: "It's easy to be an atheist if you don't think about where everything came from". The Darwinist obviously was getting high on shouting matches. Even one way shouting matches. WARNING Some Vulgarity: http://youtu.be/XBVefn6e5-A Does that remind you of some of tone of debate as evidenced in Larry Moran's site, PandasThumb, Pharyngula, and other sites? :-) HT Mike GENEscordova
June 29, 2013
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F/N some links on AVIDA (from a search at UD and onward links): 1: David Tyler 2: Robert Marks 3: Nelson and Sanford No 3 has already been cited. Let me cite no 1: ____________ >> Inevitably, all simulation models have simplified the system being investigated. This is not, in itself, a problem as long as validation work is undertaken to establish what features in the simulated system can be mapped against the real-world system. So, for example, "key terms such as nucleotide, gene, heritability, selection, and fertility lack a clear equivalent in the software" (p.8). This can be OK, but users must not imagine an equivalence when none exists. Validation work to establish application areas is therefore both relevant and essential. One problem with Avida has been the high values assigned to beneficial mutation rates and fitness effects. "Previous experiments using Avida have studied the evolutionary emergence of complex features resulting from high-impact beneficial mutations. Avida's default settings provide mutational fitness effects of 1.0-31.0 for beneficial mutations that give rise to certain computational operations [. . .]. However, fitness effects this large are extremely rare in nature." (p.3) Avida is constructed according to the Darwinian paradigm. The software is designed so that variations appear using mechanisms of mutation and natural selection. Avida assigns a high proportion of the digital genome to functionless code. Just as Darwinists imagine happens in the real world, so Avida has a genome much of which can be disturbed without disrupting fitness, but which is also capable of experiencing mutations that result in functionality. We now know that this is not a valid representation of the real world. The authors indicate that 85% of the Avida genome is initially benign, but it has the potential to contrinbute to fitness after certain mutations occur. However, as more and more functions are found for junk DNA, this aspect of Avida's design appears increasingly anachronistic. "Mutations randomly substitute, insert, or delete single instructions in an Avidian genome, drawing upon 26 available instructions defined in the software. The ancestral genome devotes about 15 instructions to the essential replication code, while the remaining 85 positions are occupied by benign no-operation instructions, analogous to inert "junk DNA" that can be used as raw material for evolutionary tinkering." (p.3) Although the software has been developed with Darwinian mechanisms in mind, the use of more realistic parameters needs attention - principally fitness effects and the proportion of advantageous mutations. The results reported by the authors do not confirm that Darwinian mechanisms can deliver the transformations that Darwinists claim. The problem with gradual incremental evolution is that small advantages are not selected naturally and do not become dominant in the population. Avida assumes and implements a scheme in which complex features can be built step-wise. Whether this is true for biological organisms is another question entirely. "We observed that, when fitness effects in Avida are small, all advantageous logic operations are lost. Though digital organisms are peculiar in that they can survive such a loss, these data confirm that the accumulation of slightly deleterious mutations can lead to decreasing biological functionality and potentially eventual extinction. Because deleterious mutations are much more common than advantageous mutations in most systems studied, reduction in the efficacy of selection imposes strong directionality on evolution by favoring the fixation of deleterious mutations. The conditions under which fitness recovery may be possible should be studied more thoroughly using computational approaches." (p.12) The most far-reaching conclusion relates to adaptation. "Plausible" adaptation accounts are pervasive in the literature of Darwinism (see here and here) but few of them are supported by empirical evidence. The Avida findings imply that "plausible" only means "realistic" when mutational fitness effects are large. With only marginal benefits, it is far more likely that "plausible" scenarios turn into "adaptationist just-so-stories". "In contrast to Avida's default settings, most mutations in biological organisms are low-impact, and this class of mutations may dominate evolutionary change. When Avida is used with more realistic mutational fitness effects, it demonstrates a clear selection threshold. Mutations that influence fitness by approximately 20% or less come to be dominated by random genetic drift. Mutations that affect fitness by 7.5 - 10.0% or less are entirely invisible to selection in this system. These results provide evidence that low-impact mutations can present a substantial barrier to progressive evolution by natural selection. Understanding mutation is of primary importance, as selection depends on the mutational production of new genotypes. Numerous changes that would be beneficial may nevertheless fail to occur because mutation cannot produce them in the time available. Further, it is important for biologists to realistically appraise what selection can and cannot do under various circumstances. Selection may neither be necessary nor sufficient to explain numerous genomic or cellular features of complex organisms." (p.13) >> ____________ Marks' video will also be well worth watching. DV, I will add it in an original post "soon." KF PS: Pardon use of edit feature to write a comment in two stages. kairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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Strange that when AVIDA is given realistic parameters nothing IC evolves. 1- Avida "organisms" are far too simple to be considered anything like a biological organism 2- Avida organisms "evolve" via unreasonable parameters: The effects of low-impact mutations in digital organisms Chase W. Nelson and John C. Sanford Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, 2011, 8:9 | doi:10.1186/1742-4682-8-9
Abstract: Background: Avida is a computer program that performs evolution experiments with digital organisms. Previous work has used the program to study the evolutionary origin of complex features, namely logic operations, but has consistently used extremely large mutational fitness effects. The present study uses Avida to better understand the role of low-impact mutations in evolution. Results: When mutational fitness effects were approximately 0.075 or less, no new logic operations evolved, and those that had previously evolved were lost. When fitness effects were approximately 0.2, only half of the operations evolved, reflecting a threshold for selection breakdown. In contrast, when Avida's default fitness effects were used, all operations routinely evolved to high frequencies and fitness increased by an average of 20 million in only 10,000 generations. Conclusions: Avidian organisms evolve new logic operations only when mutations producing them are assigned high-impact fitness effects. Furthermore, purifying selection cannot protect operations with low-impact benefits from mutational deterioration. These results suggest that selection breaks down for low-impact mutations below a certain fitness effect, the selection threshold. Experiments using biologically relevant parameter settings show the tendency for increasing genetic load to lead to loss of biological functionality. An understanding of such genetic deterioration is relevant to human disease, and may be applicable to the control of pathogens by use of lethal mutagenesis.
Whoopsie....Joe
June 29, 2013
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For many ID proponents, the stake are high in that some believe in eternal life and God, but given the payoff is zero for Darwinists at the personal level if Darwin was right, why waste trying to disprove ID. It is not a rational wager, imho. You’re time in otherwords, doesn’t seem well invested in this debate unless of course you really enjoy the tortures of shouting matches.
That's because they're really expressing other psychological issues, IMO.William J Murray
June 29, 2013
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keiths:
These programs demonstrate that Darwinian processes have the ability to generate adaptations, and they provide a convenient and simplified environment in which to study the process through which that happens.
No, keiths. Those programs do NOT demonstrate that darwinian proceses have any ability at all. Those programs have nothing to do with darwinian processes. Evos are such dishonest people. They have no place to talk about morals...Joe
June 29, 2013
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Elizabeth:
So it is disproof-of-concept that if a thing is IC it can’t evolve.
That isn't what IC says. IC says it could not evolve via blind and undirected chemical processes, ie darwinian processes. The problem here is Lizzie doesn't understand ID and she surely does not understand what is being debated.Joe
June 29, 2013
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Kairos Focus, What does "F/N" mean? Sal FOOTNOTE, KFscordova
June 29, 2013
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F/N: I see where, elsewhere AF -- after eight years of hanging around UD -- is asking what relevance the 500 coin type exercise has to the design inference and to macroevo etc. That after eight years he cannot seem to understand the implications of sampling blindly from a needle in a haystack space, speaks volumes. (Maybe, he has so convinced himself that design thinkers can only be one of more of ignorant, stupid, INSANE -- cf. above -- or wicked, that he has not paid serious attention.) Of course the matter starts in the warm little pond or the like where from chemicals and physical forces that are blind, one needs to plausibly account for OOL of life or the Darwinist tree of life has no root. The FSCO/I in life as seen and as analysed, makes this a first uncrossed gap that for a long time now has not been cogently and sufficiently addressed. Info gap, not 500 bits, but much bigger, credibly 100k - 1 Mn bits. And after that, to get to the islands of function for complex life forms with new body plans looks like 10 - 100+ mn bits each. Equally unbridged. Where for every bit past 500, the scale of the info space DOUBLES. Just moving to 501 bits means that the size of the figurative haystack for a solar system level search moves to 1,260 LY on the side, not just 1,000. 502 bits requires 1,590 LY on the side, 503 requires 2,000 LY on the side and so forth. Where in each case, we are sampling -- per the resources of the solar system applied across its lifespan -- the equivalent of a one straw sized sample. In short the challenge of blind search is not being processed seriously by design objectors. Which is the heart of the design inference issue. It is precisely because of the search challenge that blind chance and mechanical necessity are not credible explanations of FSCO/I, whether for OOL or OO body plans or OO a tray of 500 coins all H, etc, that we note the relevance of the only empirically warranted source of such, design. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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LoL! keiths links to his oft-refuted tripe pertaining to unguided evolution! keiths can't even produce a testable hypothesis for unguided evolution, let alone provide positive evidence for it. BTW AVIDA is NOTHING like darwinian evolution. And it does NOT demonstrate IC systems can evolve via darwinian mechanisms. Elizabeth, keiths and the rest of the darwinian faithful are lying if they say it does,Joe
June 29, 2013
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SC: Too many objectors are betting on hopes of advantage in the system, but may be forgetting that they might just be in a Plato's Cave of a sort, playing a game in the face of easily accessible evidence that there is much more to reality than that. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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Correction, I think the house edge formula should be [1 – [(2^500-1)/(2^500)]] – [(2^500-1)/(2^500) = 99.9999999999999999999999…..% which given the large numbers is almost a moot point!scordova
June 29, 2013
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You’ve failed to comprehend that the probability of flipping all heads is tiny, but not zero.
I think everyone accepts that. A better way of framing the argument is whether its an outcome worth betting on. From a gambling stand point, one would wager on the chance outcome unless the payoff justified it, and even then, that presumes one will have enough trials of this game to rely on the convergence to expectation. For example, in casino gambling, just because a gambler has a 3% advantage over the house in a bet, it is ill advised he wager his life savings, and the case of 500 coins it's even more true because the "casino" the "house" has a 1 - [(2^500-1)/(2^500)] = 99.9999999999999999999999.....% edge over the player. It's not a favorable wager. There is actually a whole discipline of Kelly fraction and risk management to size ones wagers to avoid gambler's ruin but that a whole nother topic! And curiously, in the case of Darwinian evolution, there isn't any payoff anyway if the chance hypothesis (or the Darwinian variation thereof) is correct. On a philosophical grounds and at a personal level, it's dubious that so many people stake their lives and reputations on Darwinian evolution being correct. There is no payoff, imho. The atheist agnostic Bertrand Russell said it well:
Such, in outline, but even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which Science presents for our belief. Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins -- all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand.
I'm grateful Darwinists show up and debate us. It's beneficial to ID proponents that we have our ideas vetted, but what benefit is it to Darwinists to debate us. Why are the stakes so big for you guys as if your souls depended on it. For many ID proponents, the stake are high in that some believe in eternal life and God, but given the payoff is zero for Darwinists at the personal level if Darwin was right, why waste trying to disprove ID. It is not a rational wager, imho. You're time in otherwords, doesn't seem well invested in this debate unless of course you really enjoy the tortures of shouting matches.scordova
June 29, 2013
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KS: With all due respect, it is obvious you have not bothered to simply read with attention and respect for accuracy, truth and fairness, what I have actually said:
You’ve failed to comprehend that the probability of flipping all heads is tiny, but not zero.
That is not a point at issue at all, but it has been the hook that ever so many objectors have sought to hang a strawman from. The best corrective is to excerpt my argument in the OP, which in turn is a headlining of an argument made elsewhere for emphasis and it is similar to arguments presented by several others up to and including Professor Sewell. Indeed, it is close indeed to the definition of CSI in Dembski's NFL on p. 144. That is, there is no excuse whatsoever to caricature the actual point being made as above:
In the case of coin tossing, all heads, all tails, alternating H and T, etc. are all obvious patterns that are simply describable (i.e. without in effect quoting the strings). Such patterns can be assigned a set of special zones, Z = {z1, z2, z3 . . . zn} of one or more outcomes, in the space of possibilities, W. Thus is effected a partition of the configuration space. It is quite obvious that |W| >> |Z|, overwhelmingly so; let us symbolise this |W| >> . . . > |Z|. Now, we put forth the Bernoulli-Laplace indifference assumption that is relevant here through the stipulation of a fair coin. (We can examine symmetry etc of a coin, or do frequency tests to see that such will for practical purposes be close enough. It is not hard to see that unless a coin is outrageously biased, the assumption is reasonable. [BTW, this implies that it is formally possible that if a fair coin is tossed 500 times, it is logically possible that it will be all heads. But that is not the pivotal point.]) When we do an exercise of tossing, we are in fact doing a sample of W, in which the partition that a given outcome, si in S [the set of possible samples], comes from, will be dominated by relative statistical weight. S is of course such that |S| >> . . . > |W|. That is, there are far more ways to sample from W in a string of actual samples s1, s2, . . . sn, than there are number of configs in W. (This is where the Marks-Dembski search for a search challenge, S4S, comes in. Sampling the samplings can be a bigger task than sampling the set of possibilities.) Where, now, we have a needle in haystack problem that on the gamut of the solar system [our practical universe for chemical level atomic interactions], the number of samples that is possible as an actual exercise is overwhelmingly smaller than S, and indeed than W. Under these circumstances, we take a sample si, 500 tosses. The balance of the partitions is such that by all but certainty, we will find a cluster of H & T in no particular order, close to 250 H: 250 T. The farther away one gets from that balance, the less likely it will be, through the sharp peaked-ness of the binomial distribution of fair coin tosses. Under these circumstances, we have no good reason to expect to see a special pattern like 500 H, etc. Indeed, such a unique and highly noticeable config will predictably — with rather high reliability — not be observed once on the gamut of the observed solar system, even were the solar system dedicated to doing nothing but tossing coins for its lifespan. That is chance manifest in coin tossing is not a plausible account for 500 H, or the equivalent, a line of 500 coins in a tray all H’s. However, if we were now to come upon a tray with 500 coins, all H’s, we can very plausibly account for it on a known, empirically grounded causal pattern: intelligent designers exist and have been known to set highly contingent systems to special values suited to their purposes. Indeed, such are the only empirically warranted sources. Where, for instance we are just such intelligences. So, the reasonable person coming on a tray of 500 coins in a row, all H, will infer that per best empirically warranted explanation, design is the credible cause. (And that person will infer the same if a coin tossing exercises presented as fair coin tossing, does the equivalent. We can reliably know that design is involved without knowing the mechanism.) Nor does this change if the discoverer did not see the event happening. That is, from a highly contingent outcome that does not fit chance very well but does fit design well, one may properly infer design as explanation. Indeed, that pattern of a specific, recognisable pattern utterly unlikely by chance but by no means inherently unlikely to the point of dismissal by design, is a plausible sign of design as best causal explanation. The same would obtain if instead of 500 H etc, we discovered that the coins were in a pattern that spelled out, using ASCII code, remarks in English or object code for a computer, etc. In this case, the pattern is recognised as a functionally specific, complex one. Why then, do we see such violent opposition to inferring design on FSCO/I etc in non-toy cases? Obviously, because objectors are making or are implying the a priori stipulation (often unacknowledged, sometimes unrecognised) that it is practically certain that no designer is POSSIBLE at the point in question. For under such a circumstance, chance is the only reasonable candidate left to account for high contingency. (Mechanical necessity does not lead to high contingency.) So, we see why there is a strong appearance of design, and we see why there is a reluctance or even violently hostile refusal to accept that that appearance can indeed be a good reason to accept that on the inductively reliable sign FSCO/I and related analysis, design is the best causal explanation. In short, we are back to the problem of materialist ideology dressed up in a lab coat.
Which, is where Lewontin's cat out of the bag statement cited in the OP and the four other major cases cited and commented on with it including the US NAS and NSTA are highly relevant to understanding the ideological captivity of science and formal as well as informal science education in our day. And, perhaps you have not noticed, but the rhetorical pattern of red herring distractors, led away to strawmen caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight to polarise, cloud and poison the atmosphere is a strongly marked pattern of too many evolutionary materialism advocates, one that reflects exactly the rhetorical and agitation rules advocated by Saul Alinski, whose tactics are exactly what has come to dominate far too much of discussion in our day. It is highly significant as a lesson from history that Plato in The Laws Bk X anticipated what would happen based on the case of Alcibiades and co. In that context, it is highly significant that you tried to twist about my point that there is a too common pattern of drumbeat repetition of false and fallacious talking points pushed by evolutionary materialism advocates and fellow travellers, into a dismissal as obviously false or irrelevant, arguments I freely acknowledge making over and over BECAUSE THEY ARE WELL WARRANTED AND ARE ROUTINELY IGNORED BY THOSE WHO DO OR SHOULD KNOW BETTER. I am sure by now that you know that the twisted about, turnspeech accusation or insinuation [especially in the form of pretending that that which was true of that movement was so for others -- usually falsely] was a favourite ploy of a certain unlamented movement from 85 - 70 years ago and especially its two chief propagandists. Now, as for Avida, ev et al, going all the way back to Dawkins' Weasel, I have not given a detailed critique above, you know that such is not germane to the major issues in this thread, and that more than adequate critiques are to be found elsewhere. I confined myself to two things, first pointing out that they all beg the question, being intelligently defined algorithms executed on equally intelligently designed machines that start within an island of function where the problem is to arrive at such islands of function in the spaces W, on samples si that are so relatively tiny that we have no reason to expect any such up to the gamut of resources of solar system or observed cosmos, to hit anything but the overwhelming bulk partition, non-function. And, in that context, if an objector is unwilling to face the patent, openly argued, explained and stated outcome of the 500 coins exercise, we have grounds for no confidence in such a party having sufficient of an open mind to be led by evidence and reason on any further matter. It is in that wider context that I have had occasion to speak to the march of folly, to the tendency to abuse those who do not toe the fashionable materialist party line, and that of too many to be enablers by denial and passivity. Which brings us full circle to the relevance of key cases from history on where when the horror was defeated, there was a forced tour of shame -- classically that by the people of Wiemar of Buchenwald as is captured in the iconic photo in the OP. It is also where it is highly relevant that the expose of slave ship and slave plantation conditions materially contributed to the breaking of the trade then of the institution itself. As a classic on this, after the 1831 uprising in Jamaica which was brutally put down, including an attempt to hang dissenter missionaries as instigators, and the burning of 13 dissenter chapels, one of the missionaries -- who by rights SHOULD be a national hero of Jamaica -- William Knibb went to England ant told the truth to the public of England, especially the marginalised but electorally important Dissenters [in the midst of a major political ferment in England] -- what "their brethren" in Jamaica were suffering. None were able to successfully refute his testimony and evidence, and when the report of the burning of chapels arrived it led to the train of political events that ended in legal, gradual abolition in 1834 - 38. Yes, a tour of shame is very important, and I am confident that the three videos embedded in the OP are a beginning. (Notice, onlookers, just how silent objectors have been on the substance in those videos.) So, KS, I put it to you that you need to think again. KFkairosfocus
June 29, 2013
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I explored the practical and philosophical implications of expectation values in this thread: Holy Rollers, Pascal's Wager, If ID is wrong it was an honest mistakescordova
June 29, 2013
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bpragmatic:
I am really curious. Somewhere along the line, I think that it was said that you are, or were, a “brain surgeon”? I was wondering how it is you are spending so much time on your the blogs championing the causes of a self described ” atheist materialist Darwinist”. Unless maybe you are retired? Are you getting paid for your involvement? If so, I can’t help but wonder where the money is coming from. Where is it coming from, if that is the case?
I am not a brain surgeon, bpragmatic. I am a cognitive neuroscientist. And I am not championing any cause. I like discussing things, and I'm interested in why people think the things they do and whether their arguments make sense. And if you want to know where I get the time, I'd invite you to look my pile of unwashed laundry and my kitchen sink. But it's not a pretty sight.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 29, 2013
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The first paragraph above is from computerist at 48. Not sure what happened to my blockquote tags!Elizabeth B Liddle
June 29, 2013
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