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On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism

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I have sometimes had the idea that the best way for Intelligent Design advocates to make their case would be to build a giant museum replicating the complexity of the cell on a large scale, so that people could see for themselves how the cell worked and draw their own conclusions. Recently I came across an old quote from biochemist Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Adler and Adler, 1985) which put paid to that idea, but which raised an interesting philosophical puzzle for people who adhere to scientific naturalism – which I define here as the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]. Here is the first part of the quote from Denton, which I had seen before (h/t Matt Chait):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.

We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.

We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology.

What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. (pp. 328 ff.)

Reading this passage vindicated my belief that a museum of the cell would be a great way to promote ID. “If we build it, they will come,” I thought. But there was more to follow, which I hadn’t read before. It turns out that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

To gain a more objective grasp of the level of complexity the cell represents, consider the problem of constructing an atomic model. Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid.

Copying nature, we could speed up the construction of the model by using small molecules such as amino acids and nucleotides rather than individual atoms. Since individual amino acids and nucleotides are made up of between ten and twenty atoms each, this would enable us to finish the project in less than five million years. We could also speed up the project by mass producing those components in the cell which are present in many copies. Perhaps three-quarters of the cell’s mass can be accounted for by such components. But even if we could produce these very quickly we would still be faced with manufacturing a quarter of the cell’s mass which consists largely of components which only occur once or twice and which would have to be constructed, therefore, on an individual basis. The complexity of the cell, like that of any complex machine, cannot be reduced to any sort of simple pattern, nor can its manufacture be reduced to a simple set of algorithms or programmes. Working continually day and night it would still be difficult to finish the model in the space of one million years. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

But there’s more, as Matt Chait points out (emphasis mine):

And let me add my two cents to this astounding picture. The model that you would complete a million years later would be just that, a lifeless static model. For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways: charged in a way to find other molecular components and combine with them; charged in a way to fold into a shape and maintain that most important shape, and charged in a way to be guided by other systems of charges to the precise spot in the cell where that particle must go. The pattern of charges and the movement of energy through the cell is easily as complex as the pattern of the physical particles themselves.

Also, Denton, in his discussion, uses a tennis ball to stand in for an atom. But an atom is not a ball. It is not even a ‘tiny solar system’ of neutrons, protons and electrons’ as we once thought. Rather, it has now been revealed to be an enormously complex lattice of forces connected by a bewildering array of utterly miniscule subatomic particles including hadrons, leptons, bosons, fermions, mesons, baryons, quarks and anti-quarks, up and down quarks, top and bottom quarks, charm quarks, strange quarks, virtual quarks, valence quarks, gluons and sea quarks…

And let me remind you again, that what we are talking about, a living cell, is a microscopic dot and thousands of these entire factories including all the complexity that we discussed above could fit on the head of a pin. Or, going another way, let’s add to this model of twenty square kilometers of breath taking complexity another one hundred trillion equally complex factories all working in perfect synchronous coordination with each other; which would be a model of the one hundred trillion celled human body, your body, that thing that we lug around every day and complain about; that would, spread laterally at the height of one cell at this magnification, blanket the entire surface of the earth four thousand times over, every part of which would contain pumps and coils and conduits and memory banks and processing centers; all working in perfect harmony with each other, all engineered to an unimaginable level of precision and all there to deliver to us our ability to be conscious, to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, and to experience the world as we are so used to experiencing it, that we have taken it and the fantastic mechanisms that make it possible for granted.

My question is, “Why don’t we know this?” What Michael Denton has written and I have added to is a perfectly accurate, easily intelligible, non-hyperbolic view of the cell. Why is this not taught in every introductory biology class in our schools?

Based on the foregoing, I think it’s fair to say that we’ll never be able to construct a computer model of the cell either, down to the atomic level: the computing resources required would just be too huge. And in that case, it will never be scientifically possible to model a natural process (or a set of processes) and demonstrate that it could have given rise to the cell – or even show that it had a greater than 50% probability of doing so.

So here’s my question for the skeptics: if we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened? Knowledge, after all, isn’t merely a true belief; it has to be a justified true belief. What could justify the claim that abiogenesis actually occurred?

It gets worse. We cannot legitimately be said to know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that life could have arisen via unguided processes. But if we don’t know the latter, then we cannot know the former. Ergo, scientific naturalism, even if were true, can never be known to be true.

There’s more. Scientific naturalists are fond of claiming that there are only two valid sources of knowledge: a priori truths of logic and mathematics, which can be known through reason alone; and a posteriori empirical truths, which are known as a result of experience and/or scientific inquiry. The statement that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance on the primordial Earth is neither a truth of logic and mathematics nor a truth which can be demonstrated (or even shown to be probable) via experience and/or scientific inquiry. And since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance, it follows that the truth of scientific naturalism cannot be known through either of the two avenues of knowledge postulated by the skeptic. So either there must be some third source of knowledge (intuition, perhaps?) that the skeptic has to fall back on. Yeah, right.

And please, don’t tell me, “Well, scientists have explained X, Y and Z, so it’s only a matter of time before they can explain life.” First, that’s illicit reasoning: performing inductive logic over a set of things is problematic enough (black swans, anyone?), but performing it over a set of scientific theories, concocted during a time-span of just 471 years – the Scientific Revolution is commonly held to have begun in 1543 – is absolutely ridiculous. And second, as I’ve argued above, there’s good reason to believe that our computing resources will never be up to the task of showing that the first living cell could have arisen via a natural, unguided process.

One last question: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Checkmate, naturalists? Over to you.

Comments
bornagain77: Lynn Margulis Criticizes Second-hand quote mines don't constitute an argument. Lewontin was referring to pure equations of population genetics, which are very limited. Computer simulations provide a much better view of the process. In any case, population genetics explains many findings, such as the persistence of sickle cell anemia, sex ratios, how variants move through populations, kin selection, etc. Keep in mind that Neodarwinism is not current theory, so try to avoid arguing with a strawman. If you want to post something, try just posting a single link for discussion rather than a slew of only tangentially related claims and quote-mines.Zachriel
December 1, 2014
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#256 Graham2
BA77 has finally met his match.
The above quote clearly qualifies as the "most clueless statement of the year". Aren't GSG's ideas close to the 'third way' and other materialistic worldview positions, shared by Graham2 and his comrades? Are they so confused that can't even recognize their own buddies and fellow travelers? Obviously, GSG's worldview seems diametrically opposite to BA77's. They are irreconcilable. BA77 hasn't met his match yet, and most probably won't. :) His Maker created him unique. :)Dionisio
December 1, 2014
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Science owes nothing to Darwinism https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/science-owes-nothing-to-darwinism-jonathan-wells/#comment-531669bornagain77
December 1, 2014
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Zach as to: "Of course it does." (have observational evidence) No it doesn't! https://uncommondescent.com/news/horizontal-gene-transfer-discovered-from-bacteria-to-insects/#comment-533360 as to: "neodarwinism still has a great deal of utility, especially in terms of population genetics," Population genetics, contrary to what you believe, is a shining example of the failure of Neo-Darwinism to have 'testable entailments': Lynn Margulis Criticizes Neo-Darwinism in Discover Magazine (Updated) – Casey Luskin April 12, 2011 Excerpt: Population geneticist Richard Lewontin gave a talk here at UMass Amherst about six years ago, and he mathemetized all of it–changes in the population, random mutation, sexual selection, cost and benefit. At the end of his talk he said, “You know, we’ve tried to test these ideas in the field and the lab, and there are really no measurements that match the quantities I’ve told you about.” This just appalled me. So I said, “Richard Lewontin, you are a great lecturer to have the courage to say it’s gotten you nowhere. But then why do you continue to do this work?” And he looked around and said, “It’s the only thing I know how to do, and if I don’t do it I won’t get grant money.” - Lynn Margulis – biologist http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/04/lynn_margulis_criticizes_neo-d045691.html In fact, instead of a rigorous science, neo Darwinism is a full fledged pseudo-science on par with tea-leaf reading: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-day-another-bad-day-for-darwinism-pt-43/#comment-533577bornagain77
December 1, 2014
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bornagain77: Glad to see you finally agree with what I was telling you yesterday about Neo-Darwinism having no OBSERVATIONAL evidence to support its claims. Of course it does. While outmoded, neodarwinism still has a great deal of utility, especially in terms of population genetics, though it certainly is only an incomplete description of evolution.Zachriel
December 1, 2014
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#256 Graham2
BA77 has finally met his match.
The above quote clearly qualifies as the "most clueless statement of the year". That shows, once more, that some interlocutors here are not interested at all in having a serious discussion. Really pathetic.Dionisio
December 1, 2014
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as to: "Actually, what matters in science are its testable entailments." Glad to see you finally agree with what I was telling you yesterday about Neo-Darwinism having no OBSERVATIONAL evidence to support its claims.bornagain77
December 1, 2014
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The Origin of Intelligent Design: A brief history of the scientific theory of intelligent design by Jonathan Witt, Ph.D. Executive Summary: Critics of the theory of intelligent design often assert that it is simply a re-packaged version of creationism, and that it began after the Supreme Court struck down the teaching of creationism in Edwards v. Aguillard in 1987. In reality, the idea of intelligent design reaches back to Socrates and Plato, and the term “intelligent design” as an alternative to blind evolution was used as early as 1897. More recently, discoveries in physics, astronomy, information theory, biochemistry, genetics, and related disciplines during the past several decades provided the impetus for scientists and philosophers of science to develop modern design theory. Many of the central ideas for the theory of intelligent design were already being articulated by scientists and philosophers of science by the early 1980s, well before the Edwards v. Aguillard decision. http://www.evolutionnews.org/The%20Origins%20of%20Intelligent%20Design.pdfbornagain77
December 1, 2014
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William J Murray: Indeed, the scientific method itself is dependent upon the assumption of a reliably consistent, orderly, law-bound universe – something we would only have an expectation for if we assumed something was imposing such an orderly, universal system onto the behavior of matter and energy in the first place. No. You just have to assume it's orderly, or rather act as if it is; methodological orderliness. What's interesting is that one of the fundamental ordering principles in biology is evolutionary descent. William J Murray: If you can point to where the actual theory of ID requires creationism, you’d have a point. It's pretty clear that modern ID evolved from creationism. http://ncse.com/creationism/legal/cdesign-proponentsists William J Murray: Once again, who offers the theory and why doesn’t make the theory a bad theory. Sure. William J Murray: What matters is what the theory actually asserts. Actually, what matters in science are its testable entailments.Zachriel
December 1, 2014
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Gary as to,,, "causes all of our complex intelligence related behaviors to connect back to the behavior of matter, which does not need to be intelligent to be source of consciousness.,,, It is not possible to rule-out electronic or algorithmic consciousness existing," It is on you to empirically prove that matter can be the source of subjective consciousness. It is not on those who find your claim unbelievable to prove it impossible. To see just how daunting of a task that is for you, please see this video on 'the hard problem' of consciousness by David Chalmers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoobornagain77
December 1, 2014
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Bornagain77, if you can meet the requirements of science with a testable model then you are welcomed to supply the missing information. From theory:
There is reciprocal cause in both forward and reverse directions, specifically (for any behavior) behavioral cause or (for intelligent behavior) intelligent cause. This behavioral pathway causes all of our complex intelligence related behaviors to connect back to the behavior of matter, which does not need to be intelligent to be source of consciousness. For sake of theory consciousness is considered to be in addition to intelligence, but not required for intelligence to exist. Otherwise the most rudimentary forms of intelligence even simple algorithm generated computer models of intelligent processes might be expected to be conscious of their existing inside of a personal computer. It is not possible to rule-out electronic or algorithmic consciousness existing, therefore even though consciousness is not expected to exist in a computer model it is still possible that any functioning intelligence system is somehow conscious of their existence. In either case, consciousness is not a requirement for intelligence.
Gary S. Gaulin
December 1, 2014
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Graham2 as to: "BA77 has finally met his match." Thanks for the unintended compliment, in your round-a-bout way, but I, as you noted IDers should, do not agree with Gary's premises,,, "Gary S. Gaulin, consciousness is not co-terminous with matter" https://uncommondescent.com/biology/enzymes-use-quantum-tunnelling/#comment-524013bornagain77
December 1, 2014
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I asked William J Murray: "You’re a theist who believes in one creator god and that that god is the source (creator) of all existence, right?" I got this and a lot of other evasive, diversionary gibberish from William in response: "It would be more accurate to say that I have chosen to provisionally assume and act as if such a god exists, not that I actually believe such a god exists. Whether such a god actually exists or not is largely irrelevant to me." With that in mind, here are some statements by William: "My premise that god is the source of cause and effect, existence, logic, intention is not the same as your misrepresentation that my premise allows for other, similar gods. I do not postulate god as “a” source of those things, but as “the” source of those things, which means – under my premise – that other such gods (as “the” source of those things) cannot exist." "Being uncaused, god has always existed" "As the premised god is the source of all existence, you cannot insert independent “conditions” or “a void” or “nothing” or “other entities’ that exist without being caused to exist by the very god I’ve premised as the source of all existence." "My belief that free will exists (necessitated by how I must actually behave) doesn’t comport (that I can tell) with any founding premise other than theism. Similarly (and in correlation), my beliefs of first/sufficient cause, an objective good, and that true statements exist and can be deliberately discerned do not comport with any fundamental premises other than theistic ones that I am aware of." "One can’t just “throw away” the premises and keep the product of those premises and still maintain that their worldview is logically justifiable (consistent). The idea of an “objective good” is especially untenable without a creator god." "Yes, it’s my view that an innate, eternal quality of the god that created existence is what we refer to as “good”. Thus, god cannot change what is good by command" "Second, we’re not talking about “a” creator, but “the” creator, as in the ground of being." "God is the ground of being, the source of mind, the source of existential purpose, that necessarily infuses its characteristics in that which it creates." "God doesn’t select from various purposes; god is the white light of pure, fundamental purpose; all other purposes are prism refractions, so to speak of that pure purpose; or exist as the rationally necessary lack thereof (not-A)." William really likes to go around in circles and argue just for the sake of arguing and I'm sure that he will respond accordingly.Pachyaena
December 1, 2014
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Querius said: "By resorting to abuse, they have conceded the argument." Yeah, I've noticed the abuse by Joe, kairosfocus, Quest, Box, Vishnu, Mung, Mapou, Gary, and plenty of other IDers too.Pachyaena
December 1, 2014
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BA77 has finally met his match.Graham2
December 1, 2014
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Querius @ 254,
Good points all, Gary.
Yes Gary, specially the incredible way you predict evolution of intelligence with the help of a read/write operation graph:
The familiar lines seen here are predicted to be representative of the development of multicellular intelligence just prior to and through the Cambrian Explosion.
Me_Think
December 1, 2014
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Good points all, Gary. I enjoyed your website as well. Some of the detractors here have offered nothing but unsupported assertions and mean-spirited vituperation as we can all see. My suggestion is simply to ignore them---just let them rant and rave. By resorting to abuse, they have conceded the argument. Best wishes, -QQuerius
December 1, 2014
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Graham2,
A ‘squeaky toy’. You really are terrible, aren’t you.
You've got to admit, it's the perfect metaphor. :-)keith s
November 30, 2014
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Graham2:
GSG: I did a quick scan through the PDF. Not a thorough read, but I think I got the drift. Its heavy on the machine-control stuff (im tangentially involved in this sort of stuff myself) but I have absolutely no idea how it is related to ID. Sure, the little critter may display clever behaviour, but its no more than any well-programmed system could do. But what does any of this have to do with an intelligent creator ? Are you suggesting the machine displays intelligence ? I don’t get the point.
I am showing what happens when the scientific evidence is properly followed to wherever it leads in search of an "intelligent creator" (or whatever you want to call what created us) starting from the premise of ID theory which states:
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
The journey lead to ID Labs at Planet Source Code, where in the how-to community it's a "goal of further research and challenge for all" to experiment with: http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/ShowCode.asp?txtCodeId=74175&lngWId=1 And there is no telling what will happen next to help antiquate the Darwinian mindset, like this new challenge that helps makes things much more scientifically challenging than getting away with throwing insults: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-day-another-bad-day-for-darwinism-pt-43/#comment-533655 All together is this illustration to show where intelligent causation is at, and when it first happened on this planet: https://sites.google.com/site/intelligenceprograms/Home/Causation.GIF Instead of whining and complaining about people wanting to discover new things that muddle the Darwinian empire I'm helping out by showing what scientifically defeats their opponents, while remaining thousands of times more faith friendly than the generalization filled Darwinian paradigm that it antiquates. Regardless of the theory being made of routine cognitive science basics that explain how intelligence works and "intelligent cause" being something already being programmed towards it's still a whole lot better than the ID movement having nothing at all in the science arena that easily enough beats their Darwinian opponents at their own game.Gary S. Gaulin
November 30, 2014
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A 'squeaky toy'. You really are terrible, aren't you.Graham2
November 30, 2014
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GSG: I did a quick scan through the PDF. Not a thorough read, but I think I got the drift. Its heavy on the machine-control stuff (im tangentially involved in this sort of stuff myself) but I have absolutely no idea how it is related to ID. Sure, the little critter may display clever behaviour, but its no more than any well-programmed system could do. But what does any of this have to do with an intelligent creator ? Are you suggesting the machine displays intelligence ? I don't get the point.Graham2
November 30, 2014
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Graham2:
I clicked on the link … jeeeez. Why am I reminded of the time-cube ?
Gary is a squeak toy for the regulars at AtBC. There's an entire thread dedicated to his nonsense.keith s
November 30, 2014
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Graham2:
I clicked on the link … jeeeez. Why am I reminded of the time-cube ? I don’t think GSG is welcome here: what he is proposing looks completely materialistic, no gods, no mind, no soul, no morality.
And there we go again. While I was writing my reply to you you were were writing junk that does not even address the actual content of the theory. It is nothing less than irresponsible to say that a theory to (from the genome up) explain how intelligence and intelligent cause works is explaining "no mind". Talking about "gods" like you did is not even science, but who cares right?Gary S. Gaulin
November 30, 2014
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Graham2:
GSG: You piqued my interest: what has your job got to do with ID ? How could criticisms of ID ‘slow down my Science work’ ? Do you mean you actually work in ID ? (surely not!)
I work in the graphics arts industry (yes surely not in ID) at a family printshop where my job is to keep the machinery repaired and running on a shoestring budget that does not afford calling up a repair tech when something is not right. The pay is not all that great (could be worse though) but it's not a bad job for someone like me who likes electronics, mechanics and other sciences that the job involves. As with Barry who more or less had a similar meltdown in his Moderation at UD article I also have a job and my ID related work is an unpaid and often thankless labor of love, not a job that I can support myself with! Complaints about not having completed several hundred thousand hours of additional work necessary to please everyone are ridiculous demands to expect of me. My ID science work is in addition to paleontology related work at Gaulin Tracksite that is thankfully right here in my yard because I can't afford a car to get around with anymore. I am known and respected by local scientists, teachers and I am in no need to make a name for myself, I feel I already did. The best of the trace fossils found at the site are now at the Springfield Science Museum including a relatively large amount safely stored in the basement vault and is being documented by those who have the experience to do so, which I do not have but others I know who are experienced academic scientists get that science work done right. From many years of earlier work I am not at all a scientific outcast or feel shunned by academia. It's more the opposite. I know I am lucky to have made it where I did in science. The problem is that I already have an overwhelming amount of science work, in addition to my day-job, and don't have time for the headgames! I have the theory in book/booklet form that you may have already seen and I could print some sample copies at any time. But getting an honest opinion from those who appointed themselves to be the science defenders is almost useless. Instead of mentioning where I could add or improve a sentence I have to endure excuses for brushing off the whole thing, which attempt to destroy my scientific credibility then I get stuck having to defend myself against mostly personal attacks. I don't mind legitimate scientific challenges, but most of what I get is of no help at all. It's like I ended up having to constantly stop all the science work that I can afford, just to battle stereotypes that sabotaged it.Gary S. Gaulin
November 30, 2014
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I clicked on the link ... jeeeez. Why am I reminded of the time-cube ? I don't think GSG is welcome here: what he is proposing looks completely materialistic, no gods, no mind, no soul, no morality.Graham2
November 30, 2014
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Graham2 @ 244 Gary S. Gaulin is a leading proponent of ID :-) He has a 51 page pdf document on " Intelligence Design Laboratory and its Theory of Operation the Theory of Intelligent Design" (just click on his name to go to his awesome blog) . He also has a VB6 program of intelligent critter. He is able to predict evolution of intelligence with the help of a read/write operation graph:
The familiar lines seen here are predicted to be representative of the development of multicellular intelligence just prior to and through the Cambrian Explosion.
Me_Think
November 30, 2014
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GSG: You piqued my interest: what has your job got to do with ID ? How could criticisms of ID 'slow down my Science work' ? Do you mean you actually work in ID ? (surely not!)Graham2
November 30, 2014
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Graham2:
… just another stereotype filled trash talking troll … Where is Barry when we need him. ?
Well the bright side is that I now feel much better, after having personally taken care of that one. I did not intend to get so emotional. But I too have a job that takes a lot of my time and deserve better than constant slaps in the face from those who see nothing wrong with repeating harmful stereotypes that slow down and destroy my credibility, science work, life, everything. It's a very frustrating situation to be in.Gary S. Gaulin
November 30, 2014
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... just another stereotype filled trash talking troll ... Where is Barry when we need him. ?Graham2
November 30, 2014
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Zachriel:
But ID advocates never actually do that. Study it, that is. They conclude design and then stop.
That is a very defamatory statement. Especially from someone who did not even bother to properly study what an ID advocate such as myself has been explaining. For example: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-day-another-bad-day-for-darwinism-pt-43/#comment-533481 You are just being another stereotype filled trash talking troll filling up the forum with scientifically irresponsible junk. Instead of studying and discovering how intelligence and intelligent cause works, as at least some of us are making progress in, you and others only throw insults in order to justify your scam that gives control of everything to an academic industry where you must be affiliated with a prestigious institution or not even bother putting your name on it because you're already marked as a nobody in that realm anyway. All else that goes on in science and science education is easily unfairly discredited by a discriminatory system that is not as fair as it claims to be. Even defamatory statements and appeal to authority are by you believed to be how the integrity of science is maintained. I find your tactics to be very disturbing.Gary S. Gaulin
November 30, 2014
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