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On the Magical Thinking Inherent in the New Atheism

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Our atheist friends delight in preening over their rejection of the “irrational” and “magic.”  Not so writes David Bentley Hart:

All of which is to say (to return to where I began) that it is absurd to think that one can profess atheism in any meaningful way without thereby assenting to an entire philosophy of being, however inchoate one’s sense of it may be. The philosophical naturalist’s view of reality is not one that merely fails to find some particular object within the world that the theist imagines can be descried there; it is a very particular representation of the nature of things, entailing a vast range of purely metaphysical commitments.

Principally, it requires that one believe that the physical order, which both experience and reason say is an ensemble of ontological contingencies, can exist entirely of itself, without any absolute source of actuality. It requires also that one resign oneself to an ultimate irrationalism: For the one reality that naturalism can never logically encompass is the very existence of nature (nature being, by definition, that which already exists); it is a philosophy, therefore, surrounded, permeated, and exceeded by a truth that is always already super naturam, and yet a philosophy that one cannot seriously entertain except by scrupulously refusing to recognize this.

It is the embrace of an infinite paradox: the universe understood as an “absolute contingency.” It may not amount to a metaphysics in the fullest sense, since strictly speaking it possesses no rational content—it is, after all, a belief that all things rest upon something like an original moment of magic—but it is certainly far more than the mere absence of faith.

Comments
Hart gives great insight into the fallacies of the claim that "magic" is only something that the theist use to account for the existence of such a complex universe. Atheism has their own magic tricks up their sleeve as well. Great job heart. The opponents of this argument continuously use circular reasoning, straw-men, and evasion to make their points. Nothing new here.ringo
August 20, 2017
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Seversky @ 62: "The fact that science has yet to discover and describe naturalistic causes for these phenomena does not mean that we never will and also does not mean that an alternative explanation such as God is necessarily true by default." Agreed. But it also doesn't mean that science WILL ever discover and describe naturalistic causes for these phenomena. Nor does it mean that a naturalistic explanation such as string or multiverse theory is necessarily true by default. Both theists and a/mats express FAITH in what they believe. Theists in a Supreme Being and a/mats in natural causes. Both are faith-based philosophical worldviews.Truth Will Set You Free
August 20, 2017
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Hart understands atheism as "after all, a belief that all things rest upon something like an original moment of magic." That most atheists do not share this understanding is of little consequence to Hart; he falls into a long line of theists who believe atheists just can't/don't/won't face the implications and presuppositions of their atheism. Some theist commenters here sit squarely in this camp. You know who you are. Most atheists, to my knowledge, explicitly and thoughtfully believe that whatever all things "rest upon," it is not (repeat: not) magical, no matter how like magic it might seem. Hart's "something like" betrays his strawman. In common usage, magic involves being able to sidestep natural causation. A magician's waving hands and incantation make an object disappear. An amulet glows for no apparent reason and causes someone to become violently ill suddenly. In other words, a belief in magic is a belief that the laws of nature can suddenly and arbitrarily be violated. But truly, such miracles are the provenance of theism and theists, including some commenters here. You know who you are. After all, magic is fully and obviously inconsistent with atheism. Not to think more about this is a basic error on Hart's part. Now he's both wrong on fundamentals and looking foolish in the process. Hallelujah, the good news is that he can start to self-correct by absorbing the idea that atheism really is not (repeat: not) "the mere absence of faith." At heart (pun intended), atheism is the reasoned and reasonable rejection of faith in gods generally and God specifically.LarTanner
August 20, 2017
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The analogue of creationism being true, then, would be something like that there is really no such entity as the number 4 because the axioms of arithmetic as we know them are blatantly inconsistent, and that the laws of physics act on neurons to make us unconsciously confabulate excuses for ignoring the physical effects of that.
Common descent is as demonstrable, necessary, and vital to human rationality as the axioms of arithmetic? I had no idea.LocalMinimum
August 20, 2017
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ET @ 9
Clarke’s 3 Laws:
#3- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
What appears as magic is just an event that is beyond our (current) comprehension. And that is just another reason why IS focuses on the Intelligent DESIGN.
So you are arguing - if I understand you correctly - that the Creation was brought about by some form of advanced technology. It was something far beyond our present understanding but still essentially naturalistic?Seversky
August 20, 2017
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john_a_designer @ 4
How did the universe originate from absolute nothing?
It couldn't have.
Why does the universe appear to be fine-tuned for life, including advanced intelligent life?
Douglas Adams's "puddle" effect?
How did life originate from non-life?
I don't know and neither does anyone else as far as I know. Even Christians who believe it was created by God don't know how it was done.
How did chemistry “create”** code? (Like DNA and RNA.)
Again, no one knows.
How did a non-teleological process, like Darwinian evolution, “create” things that are clearly teleological?
See above
How did consciousness and mind originate from mindless matter and a mindless process?
See above
To answer any of these questions naturalistically, as far as I can see, requires the belief in what amounts to be a set of “naturalistic miracles.” How is a naturalistic miracle not an extraordinary [or “magical”] claim?
The fact that science has yet to discover and describe naturalistic causes for these phenomena does not mean that we never will and also does not mean that an alternative explanation such as God is necessarily true by default. And that's setting aside the objection that God as an explanation is different from the type of explanation being demanded of science.Seversky
August 20, 2017
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CR aks:
Where did I say that idea was justified?
You didn't say it. Your syntax implies it - as I said. You need better reading comprehension. You still fail to respond to the point: if it is not justifiable, why should I bother with it?
Where did I say it was merely a guess without being subject to and having survived criticism? That’s a straw man.
It would be a straw man if I had claimed you made your guess ".. without being subject to and having survived criticism." You see, that's your straw man, not mine. If we have no justified method or arbiter of criticism, what kind of criticism are we applying, and why should we care about it? IOW, what would justify me taking an interest in something you admit is not justifiable? Everything you say and claim and argue necessarily trace back to the assumption of fundamental justification or else there's no reason to even care what you say.
And if you have a better explanation for the growth of knowledge, please present it. I’m all ears.
Oh, you're mistaking my intention here. I'm not trying to educate you, I'm using you as an example of the folly of atheist thinking. You're incapable of understanding my point.
However, “Idea X is not justified” is not a valid criticism because it’s applicable to all ideas. So it cannot be used in a critical way.
ROFL. Is that a justifiable conclusion? Keep chasing your tail, CR.
So, you’re a proponent of solipsism? It’s not a bad explanation for what we experience? At this point, I’m really quite confused.
I didn't say I was a "proponent" of anything. There are more worldviews under the sky, oh bio-automaton, than are dreamt of in your programmed meat head. It's not a choice between an external physical reality and solipsism.William J Murray
August 20, 2017
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CR
06. Questions will lead to answers, that will lead to even better questions, which will lead to even better answers and even better questions, etc. As such, our knowledge will always be incomplete and contain errors to some degree. Since our knowledge comes from variation and criticism, some, ideas will remain uncorrected for hundreds, thousand of years, or possibly never if we decide to give up criticizing our knowledge. Again, this is because our ideas start out as educated guesses. Again, this is our current, best explanation for the growth of knowledge. If you have a better explanation, I’m all ears.
Your explanation assumes the existence of a brain that can process the information. Where did that brain come from? How do you know that questions will lead to better answers?bill cole
August 20, 2017
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@WJM
CR: IOW, we start out knowing our ideas are just guesses. They are not founded on anything and are therefore not justified by in this sense. WJM: Like the idea you are presenting above? If your idea is not justified, why should it be given any greater weight than any other unjustified guess?
Where did I say that idea was justified? Where did I say it was merely a guess without being subject to and having survived criticism? That's a straw man. And if you have a better explanation for the growth of knowledge, please present it. I'm all ears. However, "Idea X is not justified" is not a valid criticism because it's applicable to all ideas. So it cannot be used in a critical way.
CR: We start out with a problem: our sense input seems to suggest an external physical world exists. (There are alternative interpretations of our experience that suggest otherwise, but they too are bad explanations, which we all discard) WJM: Not only do you admit to having absolutely no justifiable reason for the claim “which we all discard”, it is factually false in my case.
So, you're a proponent of solipsism? It's not a bad explanation for what we experience? At this point, I'm really quite confused.critical rationalist
August 20, 2017
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@BA
Hart’s article (I suggest you read the whole thing instead of the snippet in the OP) is a discussion of ontology.
I have Barry. Let's try bullet points... 01. If Heart is merely referring to a uncaused cause, it doesn't need to be sentient, intelligent, etc. 02.. It's unclear why I should care some abstract, inexpcalqble uncaused cause that exists in an inexpcalqble uncaused realm, that operates in an inexpcalqble uncaused means and methods. The suggestion that I should implies more than merely an uncaused cause. I'm agnostic about this because, it seems inconsequential when attempting to take it seriously. 03. If Hart is referring to more than merely an uncaused cause, because it is the source of "the physical order" it's unclear how such a entity can be simple yet, intelligent, source of material order (which would reflect knowledge, etc) Apparently, it spontaneously generates knowledge? This hardly seems rational. 04. That all things need to have had a cause, causation, etc. are ideas that we simply lack good criticism of, as opposed to basic beliefs that are immune to criticism. For example quantum mechanics seems to suggest there are exceptions to this at the very small scale. (However, this can be addressed with the many worlds interpretation of QM) See my comment about 2+2=4 above. 05. There could just as well have been an eternal universe that has always existed. While our current theories break down under these conditions doesn't mean they always will. This this why it's irrational to make some arbitrary stopping point to in the face of an infinite regress. "I don't know" Is a reasonable response. 06. Questions will lead to answers, that will lead to even better questions, which will lead to even better answers and even better questions, etc. As such, our knowledge will always be incomplete and contain errors to some degree. Since our knowledge comes from variation and criticism, some, ideas will remain uncorrected for hundreds, thousand of years, or possibly never if we decide to give up criticizing our knowledge. Again, this is because our ideas start out as educated guesses. Again, this is our current, best explanation for the growth of knowledge. If you have a better explanation, I'm all ears.critical rationalist
August 20, 2017
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@mike1962
That’s cute, but did you know that the expression 1 + x = 2 has only a single solution for x? Well, I guess I could believe in one less solution for that, and sound cute. But it is middle school rhetoric.
Perhaps an example discussion on the Fabric of Reality list would help to clarify this…. The question asked was if is 2+2=4 falsifiable. Someone proposed the following test.
If Tommy has two cupcakes in a box and then Tommy puts two more cupcakes in a box and Tommy doesn't now have 4 cupcakes in a box then the idea has been proven false.
David Deutsch, the Oxford Physicist and author whom's work the list is based on, pointed out the the problem with this conclusion.
The thing is, if carried out under the conditions implied, the outcome would not refute the theory that 2+2=4 but rather, it would refute the theory that the Tommy-cupcake-box system accurately models the numbers 2 and 4 and the operation of addition. This is exactly analogous to why, as I argued, [a single] fossil rabbit in the Jurassic stratum would not refute the theory of evolution: experimental testing is useless in the absence of a good explanation. What would a good explanation that 2+2 doesn't equal 4 look like? I can't think of one; that's because the theory that it's true is, in real life, extremely hard to vary. That's why mathematicians mistake it for being self-evident, or directly intuited, etc. And it is of course my opinion that 2+2 does in fact equal 4, so I'm not expecting to find a contrary theory that is at all good as an explanation. But, for instance, Greg Egan's science-fiction story Dark Integers explores essentially that possibility (albeit only for very large integers). The analogy between the theory of evolution and the 2+2 theory is in fact closer than the mere difficulty of imagining a good explanation to the contrary. Both of them, if false, would seem to involve there being laws of physics that directly mess with the creation of knowledge, in what we would consider a malevolent way. This makes for very bad explanations, but that doesn't affect the logic of the issue so here goes: The analogue of creationism being true, then, would be something like that there is really no such entity as the number 4 because the axioms of arithmetic as we know them are blatantly inconsistent, and that the laws of physics act on neurons to make us unconsciously confabulate excuses for ignoring the physical effects of that.
In case this isn't clear, given the observations of the experiment, we would assume that something was tampering with Tommy's box, the cupcake, our neurons, etc., rather than conclude that 2+2 doesn't equal 4. This is because the explanation that 2+2 actually equals 4, in reality, is extremely hard to vary. Nor can we think of a better explanation as to why 2+2=4.
But anyway, some of us on this planet have had experiences with something “other.” We know it exists.
Did your experience come with a tag attached with the word "God" written on it, so you knew how to interpret it?
That you haven’t means you are like a blind man trying to understand color. You can’t. You never will. God help you.
I'm not suggesting that people cannot experience profound and rare states of consciousness. I'm suggesting that it's not evidence for God's existence, because it's unclear how evidence can positively for anything without begging the question.critical rationalist
August 20, 2017
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I don't think CR understands the actual argument because he is a biological automaton that simply responds according to a algorithms when it spots certain sequences of words. The actual content of the subject is well beyond its ability to comprehend, so it (and the biological automaton known as rvb8) keep responding in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject. They recognize word sequences, search their database, and put together various iterations of posts we've seen and responded to hundreds of times.William J Murray
August 20, 2017
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CR @ 42 still wants to have his anti-justification cake and eat it, too, then proceeds with self-defeating expositions, such as:
IOW, we start out knowing our ideas are just guesses. They are not founded on anything and are therefore not justified by in this sense.
Like the idea you are presenting above? If your idea is not justified, why should it be given any greater weight than any other unjustified guess? Let's look at a preceding bit of CR madness:
We start out with a problem: our sense input seems to suggest an external physical world exists. (There are alternative interpretations of our experience that suggest otherwise, but they too are bad explanations, which we all discard)
Not only do you admit to having absolutely no justifiable reason for the claim "which we all discard", it is factually false in my case. Your entire post is full of this kind of nonsene and self-refutation. You continually employ the stolen concept of justificationism, which you deny valid but imply via syntax throughout your post - as if your argument is somehow related to justifiable knowledge you have already dismissed. You are making an argument you admit has no justifiable value or mooring. I think people like CR dismiss justificationism for the same reason they dismiss god; they deny that there is any final or objective authority or arbiter by which either their lives or their words and beliefs can be measured. One wonders, then, why they bother arguing them if they also claim there is no such objective or final arbiter. Well, the answer is simple: their biological programming makes them write this nonsense as if matters and as if it means something, all of which is just a subjective, biologically-induced delusion of feelings in their brain.William J Murray
August 20, 2017
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Mung, we are dealing with failure to properly address the logic of being in a world in which even our rationality is shot through with moral government.
Oh I fully agree. I have long noted the moral outrage of atheists. LoL.Mung
August 20, 2017
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CR @ 44. No. Hart's article (I suggest you read the whole thing instead of the snippet in the OP) is a discussion of ontology. You respond with a long-winded digression into epistemology. You seem smart enough to understand the difference between the two; yet you insist on ignoring the discussion on the table so you can ride your personal hobby horse. Do you understand that it is difficult to take you seriously when you do that?Barry Arrington
August 20, 2017
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CR @ 44, I've read this thread and your posts and have been impressed with your knowledge if not your understanding, and here is where you falter IMHO: "Knowledge doesn’t come from anywhere and is genuinely created." I beg to strongly differ. Knowledge is discovered not created. Knowledge, i.e. truth, exists independently of knowledge. It sits there waiting for us to find it. Many examples immediately jump to mind. Did gravity exist before we knew of it? Calculus? Did Newton create knowledge or did he simply reveal it? Truth is transcendent. It exists outside of nature, and therefore; is itself an example of the supernatural. Why is this? Why is there transcendence? Why does truth exist outside of mankind?Florabama
August 20, 2017
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PS: One of the consistent patterns we have found over the years is that the errors of evolutionary materialism trace to worldview issues and/or to problems of conception tied to fundamental principles of reasoning. Such are so dominant that it would be irresponsible for this blog's main contributors not to address such. Accordingly, we reject the sort of framing being imposed by RVB8 et al, that would try to block us from addressing the roots of their many errors.kairosfocus
August 20, 2017
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F/N: One aspect of being with distinct identity is that it has characteristics which must all obtain at once of the same thing for it to be that thing. This implies that such must be mutually consistent, thus why a square circle is impossible of being: core characteristics for one half cannot hold while those for the other half also hold. So, a serious candidate being must be internally coherent in its core, defining characteristics. Of such [for all we know] possible beings, we have contingent and necessary beings. The first obtain in at least one but not in all possible worlds, reflecting that they are causally dependent on prior, external, enabling on/off factors, cf a fire and need for heat, fuel, oxidiser as well as a viable chain reaction. necessary beings are tied to the framework for any world to exist and so are present in all worlds, we see two-ness as a case in point. This then leads to the point that a serious candidate necessary being must either be impossible of being or else it will exist in any world. In this context the atheist cannot simply quip about believing in one fewer god-candidate than monotheists, but need to address being, existence of a world and existence of us as rational, responsible, morally governed creatures in it. As God is the most serious candidate necessary being, they also need to show cause as to why they imply that such a being is impossible. And, logic of being is rational evidence. Where also, understanding being, cause etc provide ground work for scientific thought on actual beings, causes, dynamics, etc. This includes that structure and quantity are characteristics of beings, thus we see the relevance of Mathematics and its power in Science and life. Again and again, philosophical considerations are key to understanding and undergirding science. KFkairosfocus
August 20, 2017
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Mung, is a necessary being caused? Is there any possibility of a world without distinct identity, thus two-ness? Can utter non-being give rise to anything by exerting causal influence? Were there ever only true nothing, then, would that not forever obtain? Thus, do we not face the futility of proposed transfinite causal sucession to now or else a finitely remote necessary being world root? One, sufficient to account for rational, responsible, morally governed creatures . . . us? Is it then even up to the level of the high achievement, error, to imagine that everything has a cause? (Instead of merely manifesting utter -- and too often, willfully insistent -- ignorance and failure to understand, acknowledge and respect as significant what is meant when serious thinkers speak of God.) KFkairosfocus
August 20, 2017
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RVB8, again, kindly provide a credibly empirically observed case where functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information (especially text but also that implied by coherent, functional configuration) comes about by blind chance and mechanical necessity. Similarly, kindly show us how intelligence reduces to mechanical configurations originating by such blind chance and necessity, while preserving the credibility of knowing, reasoning and responsibly deciding. Further, kindly show us that scientific inference, theorising and explaining can be implicitly confined to a physicalist, evolutionary materialistic circle without begging questions regarding the goal of science as seeking truth about our world warranted by empirical evidence obtained via observation. And the like. If you look at that seriously, you will see that ID is about a major new issue in science: studying signs of intelligence and where they point regarding the objects, processes and phenomena of our world. Also, that such issues raise questions about ideologies embedded in science and education, the media, policy-making circles and more, requiring an effort to also address underlying worldviews and cultural agenda questions. KF PS: Have you been able to acknowledge as yet that many dozens of ID-supporting contributions are now part of the corpus of peer reviewed, scientifically oriented literature? (Your attempt to push ID into "humanities" strongly suggests, no. Even, as it points to your support for self-refuting scientism. FWIW, the notion that "Science" effectively monopolises knowledge is a self-undermining philosophical claim. This illustrates the too often unacknowledged value of philosophical considerations in doing sound science. I suggest that a pondering of Newton, Opticks, Query 31, will do some good. Likewise, the General Scholium to his Principia.)kairosfocus
August 20, 2017
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Barry @41, what is the point of a 'science' blog that never introduces new science, or science related topics? "On The Magical Thinking Inherent In The New Atheism." Really? Judge Jones said ID would be perfectly acceptable as a subject for study in Public Schools, so long as it was confined to the Humanities; Social Studies, History etc. This blog would make a lot more sense if it had a title like; 'Uncommon Descent: A Philosophical Journey Through Creation.'rvb8
August 19, 2017
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Mung, we are dealing with failure to properly address the logic of being in a world in which even our rationality is shot through with moral government. That is how central, how foundational, the IS-OUGHT gap is. (Cf my 38 and 41above.) KFkairosfocus
August 19, 2017
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CR:
My criticism is that, like most claims here, adding God merely pushes the problem up a level without actually solving it.
Who designed the designer? What caused God? How did God come to exist from nothing? Is that what you're talking about? What problem is it that is being pushed "up a level"?Mung
August 19, 2017
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@BA
I have a question for you. What, exactly, is the point of coming into this thread and dropping comments into the combox without ever actually addressing the argument raised in the OP? It seems pointless to me.
My criticism is that, like most claims here, adding God merely pushes the problem up a level without actually solving it. It's as if you're in an eating contest with non-thestis and claimed to have won by merely pushing the food around on your plate. However, it's still staring you in the face. I suspect we don't actually have the same goals. You're concerned with justifng knowledge, to prevent it from changing, because true knowledge comes to us in a pure form from an authoritative source. It's all down hill from there. Everyone knows the one Truth, because God want's us to. So we can't be genuinely mistaken, but only choose to deny and rebel against it. There can be no knowledge without a knowledge giver. On the other hand, I'm concerned with criticizing the contents of knowledge, so we can improve it, because it starts out as educated guesses. Knowledge doesn't come from anywhere and is genuinely created. All of our theories are incomplete and contain errors to some degree. Denying the means to correct errors is immoral. Would you say that is fairly accurate? If not, then where did I get it wrong? Please be specific. (Note how I'm putting my money where my mouth is by conjecturing your position and inviting you to correct it.)critical rationalist
August 19, 2017
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critical rationalist And that’s why I believe in one God less than you. That's cute, but did you know that the expression 1 + x = 2 has only a single solution for x? Well, I guess I could believe in one less solution for that, and sound cute. But it is middle school rhetoric. But anyway, some of us on this planet have had experiences with something "other." We know it exists. That you haven't means you are like a blind man trying to discuss color. You can't. You don't have a seat at the table. God help you. That's my take, anyway.mike1962
August 19, 2017
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@BA and WJM Let me back up a bit, as WJM seems to be confused about my earlier comment. We start out with a problem: our sense input seems to suggest an external physical world exists. (There are alternative interpretations of our experience that suggest otherwise, but they too are bad explanations, which we all discard) Our current, best, universal explanation for the growth of knowledge is some form of variation controlled by criticism. That is, it’s unclear how anyone can infallibly identity an infallible source of knowledge or infallibly interpret it, should one even exist. Nor does the contents of our theories come from observations. Specifically, no one has formulated a principle of indication that works in practice. To do so, they would need a way for it to provide guidance as to which experiences would continue and which would not. (We know things because “that’s just what God must have wanted” is yet another bad explanation, as defined below) IOW, we start out knowing our ideas are just guesses. They are not founded on anything and are therefore not justified by in this sense. As such, we expect our theories to contain errors and to be incomplete, to some degree. We take theories seriously, as if they are true in reality, along with the rest of our current best explanations, for the purpose of criticism. For example, I don’t have to believe that Superman actually exists to criticize a claim that a woman who was injured after being shot with conventional rounds of ammunition, while thwarting a bank robbery, was Superman. I just need to take the “theory” of Superman seriously for the purpose of criticizing that claim. With that out of the way, one conjectured theory you, and others have presented, is that some non-contingent being “grounds of all contingent being”. However, as I’ve pointed out, the idea that everything needs to be grounded or justified in some way, via some basic belief that is immune to criticism, is a philosophical idea. Nor is it unique to theism. You’re stuck with those to options by nature of being a justificatiiist. So, you’re projecting your problem on me. God is just such a supposedly basic belief that is supposedly immune to criticism by nature of merely being defined as non-contingent. Another idea is that the Bing Bang is actually the other side of a black hold or a Big Crunch. However, as indicated above, all of our knowledge contains errors and is incomplete. All of our theories break down under those conditions. For example, since we do not yet have a working theory of quantum gravity, we know that GR, QM or both contain errors or incomplete. So, the universe could have always existed in some form. Again, all of these ideas have started out as guesses. We make progress when we criticize our guesses and discard errors we find. A such good explanations consist of long chains of hard to vary, independently formed assertions about how the world works. They cannot be easily modified without significantly reducing their ability to explain the phenomena in question. Theories are not positively justified by this property, but have more ways to be found wrong. Philosophy and science consists of criticizing conjectured ideas. In the case of science, this criticism also take the form of empirical tests. However, theories are tested by observations, not derived from them. How can we find the idea that God “causes photons” to be wrong? How would such a universe look different than an eternal universe that collapsed in Big Crunch and exploded in a Big Bang? Why, when faced with an infinite regress, why must I either be irrational or ground reality on some uncaused cause that is supposedly immune from criticism? To quote Heart…
Principally, it requires that one believe that the physical order, which both experience and reason say is an ensemble of ontological contingencies, can exist entirely of itself, without any absolute source of actuality. It requires also that one resign oneself to an ultimate irrationalism: For the one reality that naturalism can never logically encompass is the very existence of nature (nature being, by definition, that which already exists); it is a philosophy, therefore, surrounded, permeated, and exceeded by a truth that is always already super naturam, and yet a philosophy that one cannot seriously entertain except by scrupulously refusing to recognize this.
Either the universe is the way it is merely because “That’s just some an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm that operates by inexplicable means and methods, must have wanted” or God had to make the universe a certain way for some reason X, in which reason X explains why the world works the way it does, not God. Either way, adding Heart’s God to the equation adds nothing. As such, Heart’s God is inconsequential to the choices I face every day. As such I discard it. “I don’t know” is a perfectly rational response. So, apparently, you’re only interested in justifying existence, not explaining it. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t find that particularly valuable or interesting. Again, what I want from theories are their content, not their providence. That God cares if I know he exists, is conscious, intelligent, put the knowledge of what transformations are necessary to create organisms etc. is where my criticism of a complex God become relevant. And that’s why I believe in one God less than you. When you take away that last God, you’re left with what is effectively inconsequential.critical rationalist
August 19, 2017
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Critical Rationalist, I have a question for you. What, exactly, is the point of coming into this thread and dropping comments into the combox without ever actually addressing the argument raised in the OP? It seems pointless to me.Barry Arrington
August 19, 2017
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F/N: Just to give perspective, maybe the best definition of Math I learned is, the [study of the] logic of structure and quantity. That logic pivots on coherence, e.g. the use of reductio arguments in proofs. The notion that only observed concrete entities and empirical tests may be admitted in our world of thought is deeply flawed. KF PS: As noted, things like distinct identity thus two-ness (so at least some numbers) are necessary beings. To overcome prejudice or intuitive doubts regarding NB's try to imagine a world without distinct identity, A vs NOT-A, thus two-ness. Such did not begin, cannot cease, is framework for any world to exist. NB's are real.kairosfocus
August 19, 2017
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The point of Hart’s argument is that there can be only one God who is defined as infinite actuality, the ground of all being.
Aquinas 101.Mung
August 19, 2017
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Folks, Pausing a moment. The root issue is the logic of being -- and logic tests all sorts of things, natural and beyond natural. Scientism is inherently incoherent as a philosophical claim that undermines all phil claims. Back on point, were there ever utter non-being (a genuine nothing) as such has no causal powers, it would forever obtain. So, that a world is entails that SOMETHING always was, something that is a necessary being, world root. The issue is, what. As a simple illustration no world is possible without distinct identity so also two-ness. To posit infinite regress of something like the current order raises many utter implausibilities about traversing a transfinite causal succession. A beginning of this order is plausible by contrast. But, not a beginning from utter non-being. So the issue is what is a reasonable, necessary being world root. This, being further conditioned by our existence as a class of morally governed creatures. Even our reasoning is morally governed towards truth and right on pain of becoming just another delusion and means of manipulation. That is part of the context on which I have put it on the table that the only serious candidate necessary being to fill that bill -- requiring fusing IS and OUGHT in the world root -- is the inherently good creator God, a necessary, maximally great being worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing good in accord with our nature. That is the context for this in the FT article:
In the words of the great Swami Prabhavananda, only the one transcendent God is “the uncreated”: “Gods, though supernatural, belong . . . among the creatures. Like the Christian angels, they are much nearer to man than to God.” This should not be a particularly difficult distinction to grasp, truth be told. To speak of “God” properly—in a way, that is, consonant with the teachings of orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Vedantic and Bhaktic Hinduism, Bahá’í, much of antique paganism, and so forth—is to speak of the one infinite ground of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things. God so understood is neither some particular thing posed over against the created universe, in addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being, at least not in the way that a tree, a clock, or a god is; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are. He is the infinite wellspring of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He may be said to be “beyond being,” if by “being” one means the totality of finite things, but also may be called “being itself,” in that he is the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity underlying all things. To speak of “gods,” by contrast, is to speak only of a higher or more powerful or more splendid dimension of immanent reality. Any gods who might be out there do not transcend nature but belong to it.
And BTW, those denying God must either show good cause that he is not a serious candidate necessary being (and remember reasoning is morally governed) or else show that God is as impossible as a square circle is. A tough row to hoe. But that's so once we have a serious candidate NB, as if possible then actual. For NB's are framework to worlds existing -- try to imagine a world without distinct identity. NB's of course, are necessarily eternal, without beginning or end. They cannot be destroyed. And, more. KFkairosfocus
August 19, 2017
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