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On the non-evolution of Irreducible Complexity – How Arthur Hunt Fails To Refute Behe

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I do enjoy reading ID’s most vehement critics, both in formal publications (such as books and papers) and on the, somewhat less formal, Internet blogosphere. Part of the reason for this is that it gives one something of a re-assurance to observe the vacuous nature of many of the critics’ attempted rebuttals to the challenge offered to neo-Darwinism by ID, and the attempted compensation of its sheer lack of explicative power by the religious ferocity of the associated rhetoric (to paraphrase Lynn Margulis). The prevalent pretense that the causal sufficiency of neo-Darwinism is an open-and-shut case (when no such open-and-shut case for the affirmative exists) never ceases to amuse me.

One such forum where esteemed critics lurk is the Panda’s Thumb blog. A website devoted to holding the Darwinian fort, and one endorsed by the National Center for Selling Evolution Science Education (NCSE). Since many of the Darwinian heavy guns blog for this website, we can conclude that, if consistently demonstrably faulty arguments are common play, the front-line Darwinism defense lobby is in deep water.

Recently, someone referred me to two articles (one, two) on the Panda’s Thumb website (from back in 2007), by Arthur Hunt (professor in Department of Plant and Soil Sciences at the University of Kentucky). The first is entitled “On the evolution of Irreducible Complexity”; the second, “Reality 1, Behe 0” (the latter posted shortly following the publication of Behe’s second book, The Edge of Evolution).

The articles purport to refute Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity. But, as I intend to show here, they do nothing of the kind!

In his first article, Hunt begins,

There has been a spate of interest in the blogosphere recently in the matter of protein evolution, and in particular the proposition that new protein function can evolve. Nick Matzke summarized a review (reference 1) on the subject here. Briefly, the various mechanisms discussed in the review include exon shuffling, gene duplication, retroposition, recruitment of mobile element sequences, lateral gene transfer, gene fusion, and de novo origination. Of all of these, the mechanism that received the least attention was the last – the de novo appearance of new protein-coding genes basically “from scratch”. A few examples are mentioned (such as antifreeze proteins, or AFGPs), and long-time followers of ev/cre discussions will recognize the players. However, what I would argue is the most impressive of such examples is not mentioned by Long et al. (1).

There is no need to discuss the cited Long et al. (2003) paper in any great detail here, as this has already been done by Casey Luskin here (see also Luskin’s further discussion of Anti-Freeze evolution here), and I wish to concern myself with the central element of Hunt’s argument.

Hunt continues,

Below the fold, I will describe an example of de novo appearance of a new protein-coding gene that should open one’s eyes as to the reach of evolutionary processes. To get readers to actually read below the fold, I’ll summarize – what we will learn of is a protein that is not merely a “simple” binding protein, or one with some novel physicochemical properties (like the AFGPs), but rather a gated ion channel. Specifically, a multimeric complex that: 1. permits passage of ions through membranes; 2. and binds a “trigger” that causes the gate to open (from what is otherwise a “closed” state). Recalling that Behe, in Darwin’s Black Box, explicitly calls gated ion channels IC systems, what the following amounts to is an example of the de novo appearance of a multifunctional, IC system.

Hunt is making big promises. But does he deliver? Let me briefly summarise the jist of Hunt’s argument, and then briefly weigh in on it.

The cornerstone of Hunt’s argument is principally concerned with the gene, T-urf13, which, contra Behe’s delineated ‘edge’ of evolution, is supposedly a de novo mitochondrial gene that very quickly evolved from other genes which specified rRNA, in addition to some non-coding DNA elements. The gene specifies a transmembrane protein, which aids in facilitating the passage of hydrophilic molecules across the mitochondrial membrane in maize – opening only when bound on the exterior by particular molecules.

The protein is specific to the mitochondria of maize with Texas male-sterile cytoplasm, and has also been implicated in causing male sterility and sensitivity to T-cytoplasm-specific fungal diseases. Two parts of the T-urf13 gene are homologous to other parts in the maize genome, with a further component being of unknown origin. Hunt maintains that this proves that this gene evolved by Darwinian-like means.

Hunt further maintains that the T-urf13 consists of at least three “CCCs” (recall Behe’s argument advanced in The Edge of Evolution that a double “CCC” is unlikely to be feasible by a Darwinian pathway). Two of these “CCCs”, Hunt argues, come from the binding of each subunit to at minimum two other subunits in order to form the heteromeric complex in the membrane. This entails that each respective subunit have at minimum two protein-binding sites.

Hunt argues for the presence of yet another “CCC”:

[T]he ion channel is gated. It binds a polyketide toxin, and the consequence is an opening of the channel. This is a third binding site. This is not another protein binding site, and I rather suppose that Behe would argue that this isn’t relevant to the Edge of Evolution. But the notion of a “CCC” derives from consideration of changes in a transporter (PfCRT) that alter the interaction with chloroquine; toxin binding by T-urf13 is quite analogous to the interaction between PfCRT and chloroquine. Thus, this third function of T-urf13 is akin to yet another “CCC”.

He also notes that,

It turns out that T-urf13 is a membrane protein, and in membranes it forms oligomeric structures (I am not sure if the stoichiometries have been firmly established, but that it is oligomeric is not in question). This is the first biochemical trait I would ask readers to file away – this protein is capable of protein-protein interactions, between like subunits. This means that the T-urf13 polypeptide must possess interfaces that mediate protein-protein interactions. (Readers may recall Behe and Snokes, who argued that such interfaces are very unlikely to occur by chance.)

[Note: The Behe & Snoke (2004) paper is available here, and their response (2005) to Michael Lynch’s critique is available here.]

Hunt tells us that “the protein dubbed T-urf13 had evolved, in one fell swoop by random shuffling of the maize mitochondrial genome.” If three CCC’s really evolved in “one fell swoop” by specific but random mutations, then Behe’s argument is in trouble. But does any of the research described by Hunt make any progress with regards to demonstrating that this is even plausible? Short answer: no.

Hunt does have a go of guesstimating the probabilistic plausibility of such an event of neo-functionalisation taking place. He tells us, “The bottom line – T-urf13 consists of at least three ‘CCCs’. Running some numbers, we can guesstimate that T-urf13 would need about 10^60 events of some sort in order to occur.”

Look at what Hunt concludes:

Now, recall that we are talking about, not one, but a minimum of three CCC’s. Behe says 1 in 10^60, what actually happened occurred in a total event size of less that 10^30. Obviously, Behe has badly mis-estimated the “Edge of Evolution”. Briefly stated, his “Edge of Evolution” is wrong. [Emphasis in original]

Readers trained in basic logic will take quick note of the circularity involved in this argumentation. Does Hunt offer any evidence that T-urf13 could have plausibly evolved by a Darwinian-type mechanism? No, he doesn’t. In fact, he casually dismisses the mathematics which refutes his whole argument. Here we have a system with a minimum of three CCCs, and since he presupposes as an a priori principle that it must have a Darwinian explanation, this apparently refutes Behe’s argument! This is truly astonishing argumentation. Yes, certain parts of the gene have known homologous counterparts. But, at most, that demonstrates common descent (and even that conclusion is dubious). But a demonstration of homology, or common ancestral derivation, or a progression of forms is not, in and of itself, a causal explanation. Behe himself noted in Darwin’s Black Box, “Although useful for determining lines of descent … comparing sequences cannot show how a complex biochemical system achieved its function—the question that most concerns us in this book.” Since Behe already maintains that all life is derivative of a common ancestor, a demonstration of biochemical or molecular homology is not likely to impress him greatly.

How, then, might Hunt and others successfully show Behe to be wrong about evolution? It’s very simple: show that adequate probabilistic resources existed to facilitate the plausible origin of these types of multi-component-dependent systems. If, indeed, it is the case that each fitness peak lies separated by more than a few specific mutations, it remains difficult to envision how the Darwinian mechanism might adequately facilitate the transition from one peak to another within any reasonable time frame. Douglas Axe, of the biologic institute, showed in one recent paper in the journal Bio-complexity that the model of gene duplication and recruitment only works if very few changes are required to acquire novel selectable utility or neo-functionalisation. If a duplicated gene is neutral (in terms of its cost to the organism), then the  maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six. If the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer (not inclusive of the duplication itself). One other study, published in Nature in 2001 by Keefe & Szostak, documented that more than a million million random sequences were required in order to stumble upon a functioning ATP-binding protein, a protein substantially smaller than the transmembrane protein specified by the gene, T-urf13. Douglas Axe has also documented (2004), in the Journal of Molecular Biology, the prohibitive rarity of functional enzymatic binding domains with respect to the vast sea of combinatorial sequence space in a 150 amino-acid long residue (Beta-Lactamase).

What, then, can we conclude? Contrary to his claims, Hunt has failed to provide a detailed and rigorous account of the origin of T-urf13. Hunt also supplies no mathematical demonstration that the de novo origin of such genes is sufficiently probable that it might be justifiably attributed to an unguided or random process, nor does he provide a demonstration that a step-wise pathway exists where novel utility is conferred at every step (being separated by not more than one or two mutations) along the way prior to the emergence of the T-urf13 gene.

The Panda’s Thumb are really going to have to do better than this if they hope to refute Behe!

Comments
I've looked at the supplementary material, and the Denoeud, et. al., article was not the one I came across. When I have time, I'll look some more.PaV
March 2, 2011
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PS: Actually, that is a bit generous: consider how much background functionality has to be in place in a PC system for a hello world to work. Moving around in an island of function has to do more with specialisation, niches and small losses that do not destroy overall function, than with getting to an overall context of function to begin with.kairosfocus
March 2, 2011
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Dr Bot: Can you transform a hello world, one step at a time -- while preserving function -- into an operating system? That is the true problem. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 2, 2011
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Drbot and MG, If such an experiment were done, how would we know when we succeeded? I mean, with the monkey/typewriter experiement we would know when we got Shakespear. But that refers to information that we have already assembled and assigned meaning to it. How would we find the "meaning" in the CSI of the experiment?Collin
March 2, 2011
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Jonathan M: I think this is the citation: "Plasticity of Animal Genome Architecture Unmasked by Rapid Evolution of a Pelagic Tunicate" Science vol. 330, 3 Dec 2010 Denoeud, et al. The last sentence of the abstract speaks of "mechanisms of intron gain." While this isn't exactly a "de novo" gene, it is tantamount to it. Hope this helps.PaV
March 2, 2011
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Jonathan M: I've searched for the paper, but can't find it. I don't know if it's Coyne's or not. I remember not having access to the paper directly---which likely means either Science or Nature---but having access to the supplemental material. It was there that the overlay of sequences were shown. But I can't find any of that now. Sorry.PaV
March 2, 2011
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Thank you for affirming how computer programs with prescriptive information, are produced by intelligences.
It is remarkable that you would believe that anyone would think otherwise. We know the origin of computers, and computer programes - we observe them, but unlike life we have never observed computers reproducing on their own with variety.
The precise problem with ev et al as has already been pointed out, is that they put the contained small scale random variation on an island of function and set on the task of hill climbing. Through a bait and switch, this — not disputed by anyone — is then offered as evidence that we can get to the shores of such an island of function by the same means. Not so. In short, question-begging and bait and switch.
No bait and switch. MathGrrl was quite specific with her question - Can a genetic algorithm (and by implication Evolution) generate CSI. Evolutionary processes only apply to replicating systems (descent, modification and selection) so the question - quite explicitly stated - is about whether evolution as it operates on living systems can generate CSI, not about whether life can arise without intelligent causes. You said this:
The precise problem with ev et al as has already been pointed out, is that they put the contained small scale random variation on an island of function and set on the task of hill climbing.
This looks like an acknowlegement that evolution can generate CSI - If you are on the shore of an island of functionality and you climb to a hill on that island you are increasing complexity and/or functionality. If this is the case then with regard to MathGrrl's question you are answering Yes - evolutionary processes can genererate CSI. Don't keep trying to move the goalposts - this is a specific question to be addressed: Can core evolutionary processes (descent, modification and selection) increase CSI - YES or NO. 'We don't know' is a fine and admirable answer - MathGrrl is asking for help devising an experiment that will start to turn a 'we don't know' into a tentative yes or no - This should be welcomed, not subject to derision and dismissal.DrBot
March 2, 2011
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PaV, You wrote,
In a recent paper, a “de novo” gene was being touted. Guess what? It turns out that a portion of a “non-coding” gene and its flanking element was involved in the manufacturing of this “de novo” gene.
Could you supply a reference for this? Thanks. JJonathan M
March 2, 2011
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Dr Bot: Thank you for affirming how computer programs with prescriptive information, are produced by intelligences. In DNA, we see . . . discrete state, prescriptive information, in a program. So, we should conclude, therefore . . . ? GEM of TKI PS: The precise problem with ev et al as has already been pointed out, is that they put the contained small scale random variation on an island of function and set on the task of hill climbing. Through a bait and switch, this -- not disputed by anyone -- is then offered as evidence that we can get to the shores of such an island of function by the same means. Not so. In short, question-begging and bait and switch.kairosfocus
March 2, 2011
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MG: Further glancing down the list of posts since 140, it becomes evident that you are being willfully obtuse. CSI has long since been defined, and quantified, as you can see from even the UD weak argument correctives, top right this and every UD page. FSCI, is a very simple metric, the same sort of functional bits you use every time you say this file is 169 kbytes. The only special consideration is that once we see a functionally specific piece of information beyond 1,000 bits storage capacity, that means that we are looking at a potential configuration space with 1.07*10^301 or more possible arrangements. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you above -- but willfully ignored -- and as has been pointed out to you many times over over months at least to my certain knowledge, that is vastly more states than the whole observed cosmos, changing state every Planck time for its credible lifespan, could undergo. That is, the space cannot be searched, on the gamut of our cosmos. So, it is not credible that such functionality can be reached by unintelligent processes of chance and/or mechanical necessity. Unsurprisingly, as infinite monkeys tests affirm, there are no cases of FSCI beyond the 1,000 bit threshold being created by such forces. Those who claim or imply that that is empirically possible and credible as the source of the dFSCI in life need to SHOW that. The have not, nor is such in prospect. That seems to be the underlying motive for the rhetorical turnabout games you have resorted to in this thread. For, we see here a strong empirical and analysis support for the common sense observation that FSCI -- SUCH AS POSTS IN THIS THREAD -- IS ON UNIFORM OBSERVATION, THE PRODUCT OF AND A RELIABLE SIGN OF INTELLIGENCE. That seems to be a big, unwelcome truth. But, that does not change the fact that it is an abundantly supported empirical fact. But, it strongly points to design as the most credible explanation for the dFSCI in the heart of the living cell, and thus in the origin of the cell, given the central role of DNA in the cell's life. Enough, is enough. We have reached the reductio ad absurdum of blatant denial of facts plain to all, and of pretence that the plain and empirically well-warranted is obscure and dubious. Good day, madam. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 2, 2011
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Of course, the questions you ask are BS from the start. I may just as easily ask these exact same questions of you regarding your preferred explanation, and you will have the exact same answers as I do.
Hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed articles detailing research done over the past century and a half show your assertion to be blatantly incorrect. Look in any issue of Science, Nature, or hundreds of other scientific journals and you will see the results of scientists answering the what, when, where, and how questions that you refuse to answer for ID.
My point that you can't answer the same questions you pose to ID is "blatantly incorrect?" Really? Are you sure about that? It has now been openly demonstrated that you ask for answers from ID which you yourself cannot answer. Its gamesmanship being pawned off as a placemat for real inquiry. Yet, in response to having your hypocracy put on display, you've done what any good and faithful ideologue would do; you've chosen to double-down. You now want to pretend that there's a stack of research papers "detailing" the answers. Not only do you want to draw this picture for yourself, but apparently you want others to follow you into denial. I am more than happy to take that bet, although I am left to wonder how low your standards for "answers" will suddenly become once it is you that must provide them. Please point to a single one of the "hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed articles" that answers the "how" and "when" and "where" of Life's origins.Upright BiPed
March 2, 2011
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KF: All computational models (simulations) have to be written by people, this ought to be obvious. If I write a simulation of a chemical system I can use this to establish if the system under study can produce certain effects. This does not mean that the system being studied can only produce those effects because of design. It means I've designed a simulation that models real systems. Similarly you can construct a simulation of the various mechanisms of evolution - drawn from measurement and observation of reality - You can simulate an environment with resources, agents with bodies, genotypes that map to phenotypes. What MathGrrl is doing is perfectly reasonable as a scientific investigation: Create a realistic model of self replicating agents that produce variable copies, which operate in an environment where their phenotypic traits (their behavior) affect their reproductive success. Then calculate CSI for agents in subsequent generations as the simulation plays out. By saying 'the simulation was designed' you are just shifting goalposts about, the purpose here is to test the basic evolutionary process (descent, modification and selection) to see if CSI can increase over sucessive generations. It is a test of what the physical universe can do within its known laws. If you want to argue that the universe (or a simulation of part of the universe) has to be the result of design then I have no problem with that but MathGrrl is addressing a different question - 'what can the universe do?', not 'was it designed or not?'. MathGrrl, perhaps a better approach would be to assume, for the sake of the experiment, that the universe, and simple self replicators were the result of design. Now lets see if designed simple replicators, in a designed universe, can show an increase in CSI when subject to mutation and selection over many generations!DrBot
March 2, 2011
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MathGrrl:
Look in any issue of Science, Nature, or hundreds of other scientific journals and you will see the results of scientists answering the what, when, where, and how questions that you refuse to answer for ID.
Science, and Nature give us results that are found in the lab or found in nature today. But they give us no real understanding or knowledge of what happened, when it happened, where it happened or how it happened in the past. We have only guesses and speculations, and mere assertions. The reality is that what they allege happened, using known genetic processes cannot come close to explaining what they assert it does. This is the problem. Their answers are not coherent, and they don't want to admit to it. Then they run under a cloud of obfuscation. The entire field of biology is so vast and so complicated, that no one will take the time to connect all the dots. In surveys, most scientists simply "assume" that Darwinian concepts have been proven. Yet close inspection has these same mechanisms falling on their faces. This is the current state of things. Darwinism is fading away. But many want to hold onto it---and, for metaphysical reasons.PaV
March 2, 2011
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In short, MG, the time for rhetorical gamesmanship through stunts like you carried out at 140 is over.kairosfocus
March 2, 2011
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MG: Re 140, do let me know, is it not commonly known that Ev et al are programs written by individuals? is it not known that these programs have in them digitally coded, symbolic functional info beyond 125 bytes? Does not that show that again the FSCI criterion reliably identifies such an entity as designed, per the design inference, confirmed by direct knowledge? In short, your remark just above comes across as willfully obtuse. I think you need to account to me for how you tried that rhetorical gambit before any reasonable discussion can be possible. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 2, 2011
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Eugen,
Now seriously , do you have any ideas for real experiment?
Normally it is the responsibility of the proponents of an hypothesis to provide testable entailments that could serve to falsify it. If that can't be done, the hypothesis is unfalsifiable and hence non-scientific. That being said, I am interested in running some simulations to determine whether or not known evolutionary mechanisms can create CSI. In order to do that, I need ID proponents to rigorously define CSI and show how to measure it. Are you willing to help?MathGrrl
March 2, 2011
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Upright BiPed,
Of course, the questions you ask are BS from the start. I may just as easily ask these exact same questions of you regarding your preferred explanation, and you will have the exact same answers as I do.
Hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed articles detailing research done over the past century and a half show your assertion to be blatantly incorrect. Look in any issue of Science, Nature, or hundreds of other scientific journals and you will see the results of scientists answering the what, when, where, and how questions that you refuse to answer for ID.MathGrrl
March 2, 2011
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DrBot,
I think there are two issues that need clear seperation (from your comments I suspect you are aware of them but I thought I would spell it out for the sake of clarity): 1 Generating CSI from a pre-biotic perspective. 2 Generating CSI from a post-biotic perspective. Using a GA is only relevant to the second case because it is a model of reproducing systems (Reproduction with mutation and selection) – as KF would put it, it is exploring an island of functionality.
Thank you for the clarification. I am, indeed, discussion only case 2.
Some ID proponents here seem to feel that even in case 2 a GA cannot generate CSI (I disagree, I’ve worked with GA’s!)
This is exactly what I hope to model, with the assistance of any interested ID proponents to rigorously define CSI such that we can measure it objectively.MathGrrl
March 2, 2011
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kairosfocus,
As tothe calculations on Ev and the like, it is plain that these “evolved” organisms are intelligently directed products of an intelligently designed process, so from the outset your attempt to estimate the scale of dFSCI involved is pointless.
I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying that dFSCI is by definition only produced by intelligence or are you saying that it is impossible to model any observed mechanisms to determine if they generate dFSCI (or both)?
What is the file size of Ev or Avida? Is it beyond 125 bytes? If so, the programs are beyond the credible reach of chance and blind mechanical necessity, on the gamut of our observed cosmos. Thus the presence of dFSCI in the programs already warns us what we know by more direct means: they are intelligently designed.
Clearly the ev, Tierra, and Steiner Problem simulators are designed. I'm talking about the digital organisms that evolve within those simulators. Many of those exceed 25 bytes in length -- would you agree that they may possess dFSCI? From one of your followup posts:
Do you accept that where we can do direct empirical testing, dFSCI in particular turns out to be a very reliable sign of design, as with say posts on this thread?
No. Thus far neither dFSCI nor any other CSI variant have been rigorously defined and no demonstrations of how to calculate these metrics for real world biological systems have been provided. Given that level of definition, they are essentially meaningless terms. I am very interested in running some simulations to measure the generation of CSI via evolutionary mechanisms. I hope that at least one or two ID proponents here share that interest. Any assistance you can provide would be greatly appreciated.MathGrrl
March 2, 2011
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Pedant [110]:
So, it seems that the ID squad here is promoting the proposition that miracles (events that run counter to the usual course of observation) occur.
Miracles like the Shroud of Turin---contra MathGrrl's assertions, the Shroud has NOT be proven to be a fake; rather, a theory has been presented and tested by one of the original scientists making the C14 dating, and accepted as a probable explanation for the later dating of the Shroud via C14 methods---are simply a way of pointing out the presuppositions that many bring to the whole question of evolutionary mechanisms. When MathGrrl insists on who, what, how, when and where, these miracles provide all of the answers (more or less) in what is right before our eyes, unlike any mechanism that the Designer may have used. Let's note that it is quite simple to turn this question back at MathGrrl: I want to know how, when, where, and what caused evolution to occur. Can she provide those answers? No. She can try and provide neo-Darwinian explanations, which faintly have relevance in these matters, and which fails terribly at answering the more necessary and fundamental questions we may pose. I have spent much time and much energy searching everywhere for some plausible material explanation for evolution. Simply answer: it cannot be found. It's nowhere to be found. Meanwhile, you can find many sources demonstrating the diminished capacity of Darwinian mechanisms to explain the progressive complexity life presents to us. I came to UD via Panda's Thumb, arguing there about the inadequacies of Darwinian theory long before I became familiar with ID tenets. No one at PT could satisfactorily point to a plausible explanation. But, I digress . . . MathGrrl:
I’m very interested in testing the claim that CSI can only be the result of intelligent agency. In order to do so, I need the help of ID proponents to rigorously define CSI and demonstrate how to objectively measure it. That will allow me, hopefully, to use an evolutionary simulation to determine whether or not known evolutionary mechanisms are capable of generating CSI.
From my own experience, you need to tackle No Free Lunch, and really make an effort at understanding Dembski's notion of rejection regions. There are all kinds of tricky aspects to it. I've had discussions with Ph'D's in probability theory and even they don't understand Dembski correctly---mainly because they're not interested in understanding him; they simply dismiss him. Another fine source is Sir Fred Hoyle's book, The Mathematics of Evolution. He develops there his own brand of population genetics which is completely adequate and persuasive in pointing out the impossibility of Darwinian mechanisms doing what they are claim to do. Hoyle was an atheist. His answer to life's complexity was to, like Paul Davies, believe in panspermia. So, from a completely irreligious point of view, the inadequacies of Darwinian theory are made rather clear. Look, e.g., at his treatment of Cytochrome C.PaV
March 1, 2011
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---mathgirl: "Please provide references to the empirical evidence for the existence of an intelligent agent that has intervened in biological evolution, the empirical evidence that shows exactly what this agent did, the empirical evidence that shows when this intervention took place, the empirical evidence that shows where this intervention happened, and the empirical evidence that shows how the intervention was accomplished." On the one hand, you say ID paradigms are not precise enough, or narrow enough, or well-defined enough to be measured. On the other hand, you claim that ID should abandon the narrow focus that makes precision possible, broaden the investigation, and start asking new questions about who did the designing, when it happened, and how it happened, none of which could ever hoped to measured with the paradigms being used. Frankly, I don’t know how anyone could be as confused as you appear to be.StephenB
March 1, 2011
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Hi again Mathgrrl " Please provide references to the empirical evidence for the existence of an intelligent agent…" This could prove an intelligent agency. Once I played 3 chess games against the bear . I won 2:1. Now seriously , do you have any ideas for real experiment?Eugen
March 1, 2011
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F/N: it is also to be noted that there is no one standard or smoothly varying embryological development pattern. Even in quite similar animals there can be radically divergent development paths, and homologous structures notoriously come about by drastically different embryological processes and sources. GEM of TKI.kairosfocus
March 1, 2011
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Dr Bot Did you read or just skim? For, a significant part of the post above pointed to just the reasons why we are looking at such islands of function, and major discontinuities at body plan level. Remember, a new body plan at phylum or sub-phylum level is a new way of doing business for an organism, requiring new tissues, new organs and new organisation, thus new cell times and regulatory programs. The 10 m bases estimate is a low estimate for the amount of re-organisation to achieve that. Let me cite an excerpt in my always linked, which addresses this issue in Section C: _______________ >> The Cambrian explosion represents a remarkable jump in the specified complexity or "complex specified information" (CSI) of the biological world. For over three billions years, the biological realm included little more than bacteria and algae (Brocks et al. 1999). Then, beginning about 570-565 million years ago (mya), the first complex multicellular organisms appeared in the rock strata, including sponges, cnidarians, and the peculiar Ediacaran biota (Grotzinger et al. 1995). Forty million years later, the Cambrian explosion occurred (Bowring et al. 1993) . . . One way to estimate the amount of new CSI that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93) . . . the more complex animals that appeared in the Cambrian (e.g., arthropods) would have required fifty or more cell types . . . New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. New proteins, in turn, require new genetic information. Thus an increase in the number of cell types implies (at a minimum) a considerable increase in the amount of specified genetic information. Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI . . . . In order to explain the origin of the Cambrian animals, one must account not only for new proteins and cell types, but also for the origin of new body plans . . . Mutations in genes that are expressed late in the development of an organism will not affect the body plan. Mutations expressed early in development, however, could conceivably produce significant morphological change (Arthur 1997:21) . . . [but] processes of development are tightly integrated spatially and temporally such that changes early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream. For this reason, mutations will be much more likely to be deadly if they disrupt a functionally deeply-embedded structure such as a spinal column than if they affect more isolated anatomical features such as fingers (Kauffman 1995:200) . . . McDonald notes that genes that are observed to vary within natural populations do not lead to major adaptive changes, while genes that could cause major changes--the very stuff of macroevolution--apparently do not vary. In other words, mutations of the kind that macroevolution doesn't need (namely, viable genetic mutations in DNA expressed late in development) do occur, but those that it does need (namely, beneficial body plan mutations expressed early in development) apparently don't occur.6 [Meyer, The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories, PBSW, ed Sternberg. And despite many talking points to the contrary this did pass proper peer review by "renowned scientists" ] >> ______________ This is just one aspect of the problem, which starts with the need to code for foldable, active proteins and the regulatory systems to control their expression and use. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 1, 2011
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Mathgrrrl,
That is simply not true. In fact, some respondents have explicitly said that such answers cannot be provided. To be fair, though, I may have missed the answers you claim have been provided. Please provide references to the empirical evidence for the existence of an intelligent agent that has intervened in biological evolution, the empirical evidence that shows exactly what this agent did, the empirical evidence that shows when this intervention took place, the empirical evidence that shows where this intervention happened, and the empirical evidence that shows how the intervention was accomplished.
Like I said, this is just gamesmanship. It certainly isn’t a search for clarity, truth, or understanding. You know very well that ID cannot tell you when and where. ID cannot tell you these things because the observable evidence offers no way to know them. This fact gives ideologues like yourself the desperately-needed respite to say “Aha!” there’s nothing there. Of course, the questions you ask are BS from the start. I may just as easily ask these exact same questions of you regarding your preferred explanation, and you will have the exact same answers as I do. So, it’s nothing but a game. Although neither camp can answer these particular questions, that doesn’t mean however that the camps are equal. They are certainly not equal; they are as different as their explanations. The ID camp says that an act of volitional agency is necessary for the sequencing of chemical symbols within DNA, whereas the materialist camp says that the sequencing happened as a byproduct of chance and physical necessity. One explanation is purely mechanistic while the other is specifically not. Surely a Sous Chef can tell you the mechanistic steps for baking a cake, but the existence of that cake is not reducible to those steps. Conversely, the materialist’s explanation says the cake baked itself. One explanation has nothing but material causes to explain the origin of the evidence, while the other does not propose a material origin to begin with. It proposes an act of volition instead. This is not the only way in which the two camps are unequal. For instance, the ID camp has man’s universal experience of the natural world at the core of its explanation. It is our universal experience (throughout all history) that digitally-encoded information is the product of an agent. The ID camp is completely congruent with that empirical fact, while the materialist’s camp simply ignores it. So you see, it’s nothing but (illogical) gamesmanship for you to repeatedly ask for a material origins checklist from an explanation that doesn’t posit a material origin. Do you not understand this? A tornado is a purely material object; no reference to an act of volition is necessary in order to explain it. A red plastic ball is material as well, however, an act of volition is necessary to explain it because there is nothing in the material (the plastic) that would cause it to form a sphere and dye itself red. So the origin of a tornado is completely explicable by referencing its material composition, but it is impossible to do that with a red plastic ball. To ask “how” and “when” and “where” from the plastic, is simply ridiculous. Even so, it is your camp that claims that purely mechanistic forces can create the sequencing in DNA – and that it can be no other way. Not only does your camp make this claim, but they also marshal national organizations and legal teams to enforce their unsupported beliefs upon others. So, where’s your checklist? Of course, we all know you don’t have one - which is precisely why you play these games.Upright BiPed
March 1, 2011
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I'm just about to rush off so no time to respond except to this:
It’s very simple: while hill-climbing algors can move around within islands of function, they cannot jump the sea of non-function to get to new body plans.
On what evidence have you determined that different body plans are not on the same island (or perhaps continent) of functionality?DrBot
March 1, 2011
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Dr Bot: It's very simple: while hill-climbing algors can move around within islands of function, they cannot jump the sea of non-function to get to new body plans. Without a root, OOL, the Darwinian tree of life has no basis to stand. The smallest genomes of unicellular life are north of 100 k bases, and 1 million is more reasonable for first life as the smaller ones are parasitic on more complex life for key nutrients. Anyway use 100 k bases and generously treat it as having enough redundancy to make that equivalent to 100 k bits dFSCI. You are trying to find islands of function in a space of 2^100 000 = 9.99 *10^30,102 configs. With only 10^150 Planck-time states to work with on the gamut of our observed cosmos, that is hopeless, a practical zero. To get to novel body plans you have to add 10's or 100's or more of millions of bases, dozens of times over. 2^10, 000,000 = 9,05 *10^3,010, 299. Dozens of times over, on just this earth you have to bridge that sort of sea, to jump from one island to another, just to get TO a shoreline of function in the archipelago of life. But, the tree of life model means there is just one continent with peninsulas, so once you start you just move from mountain 5range to range, peninsula to peninsula emerging! Big problem: the tree of life model exists only on paper, the evidence shows strongly that from protein folds up to body plans, the architectures of functional life forms is discontinuous. No wonder, there is an overwhelming pattern in the fossils of discrete body plans emerging and then either still being around or dying out. A neat branching pattern smoothly graded fitness landscape, we plainly have not got. And the gaps between islands of function in config spaces that are that large are well beyond bridgeable. You cannot transform hello world into ev, one tiny functional change at a time. Nor can you transform "See spot run. Spot catches the ball," one step at a time at random, functional all the way, into the contents of a library. Intelligence is the only empirically known, causally sufficient source of dFSCI such as we find in the library, on the web or in DNA. This (as demonstrable a claim as any empirical fact is) is beginning to look like one of Ilion's Big Truths, truths so big and heavy with significance, that -- regardless of their degree of warrant -- they are very hard for those locked into the present order to accept or acknowledge, or even seriously entertain. I am beginning to think the real issue is now this backed up by this, and with this lurking in the background as the biggest unwelcome Big truth of all, not the balance of merits on evidence or logic. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 1, 2011
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MathGrrl I think there are two issues that need clear seperation (from your comments I suspect you are aware of them but I thought I would spell it out for the sake of clarity): 1 Generating CSI from a pre-biotic perspective. 2 Generating CSI from a post-biotic perspective. Using a GA is only relevant to the second case because it is a model of reproducing systems (Reproduction with mutation and selection) - as KF would put it, it is exploring an island of functionality. In case 1 a GA is not an appropriate model because you do not have reproduction, just complex chemical processes - Reactions and persistence if you will. Again, as KF would put it, it is about finding an island of functionality. Some ID proponents here seem to feel that even in case 2 a GA cannot generate CSI (I disagree, I've worked with GA's!) Case 1 is far more interesting and is basically the OOL problem - can natural forces generate self replicating systems. Of course we also have case 3 if we want to push the goalposts back that far - Is the universe designed or not - but I'm not sure how to devise an experiment to test that. It would be noce if everyone could focus on one of these questions first, I suggest the one I believe MathGrrl is asking about (Case 2):
I’m very interested in testing the claim that CSI can only be the result of intelligent agency. In order to do so, I need the help of ID proponents to rigorously define CSI and demonstrate how to objectively measure it. That will allow me, hopefully, to use an evolutionary simulation to determine whether or not known evolutionary mechanisms are capable of generating CSI.
Of course we can always move the agency back (to case 3) and say that a GA can produce CSI but an intelligence was required to create a universe in which evolution can take place ;) Lets stick to investigating case 2 for the moment though - can evolution generate (or perhaps increase) CSI.DrBot
March 1, 2011
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,, it should be noted that one of the primary reasons that Mathgrrl argues for a medieval origin in the first place is because of the inexplicable photographic negative/3-Dimensional properties of the image,, shroud skeptics think that perhaps a 'mad genius' could have forged the image :) ,,, The Turin Shroud - Comparing Image And Photographic Negative - interactive webpage (Of note: The finding of a photographic negative image on the Shroud is still as much a mystery today as when it was first discovered by Secondo Pia in 1898.) http://www.shroud.com/shrdface.htm Shroud Of Turin's Unique 3 Dimensionality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041182 Shroud Of Turin - Photographic Negative - 3D Hologram - The Lamb - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/ How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581 etc.. etc... Myself, I am very impressed that this was recently found by holographic imaging,, Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205 So MathGrrl, according to your unsubstantiated hypothesis, a 'mad genius' knew about photography 500 years before it was invented, knew about holography almost 600 years before it was invented, and hid the words 'The Lamb', that could only be decoded through holography??? Moreover your 'mad genius' accomplished all this using techniques that still can't be replicated to this day,,, "The shroud image is made from tiny fibres that are (each) 1/10th of a human hair. The picture elements are actually randomly distributed like the dots in your newspaper, photograph or magazine photograph. To do this you would need an incredibly accurate atomic laser. This technology does NOT exist (even to this day)." Kevin Moran - Optical Engineer ,,, moreover this 'mad genius' accomplished this unrivaled feat of technological prowess without revealing any of his secrets to his peers??? :) ,,, Oh what a tangled web we weave MathGrrl!bornagain77
March 1, 2011
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MathGrrl you state; 'The shroud of Turin has been clearly and repeatedly demonstrated to be of 14th century, human origin.' Repeatedly??? Really MathGrrl?? The ONLY solid piece of evidence that ever suggested that the Shroud could have been of medieval origin was the Carbon dating!!! But the carbon dating has now been overturned, by Los Alamos National Laboratory no less!!! “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. Robert Villarreal http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 further note; New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4222339 The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating: Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory: Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/ MathGrrl you state 'REPEATEDLY shown to be of medieval origin' and yet I can think of no solid evidence to support your position now that the carbon dating fiasco has been overturned, whereas I can provide several pieces of evidence for ancient origination in first century Jerusalem; THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE - Evidence of Authenticity http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Shroud Of Turin - Sewn From Two Pieces - 2000 Years Old - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109101 The Sudarium of Oviedo http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htmbornagain77
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