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On the non-evolution of Irreducible Complexity – How Arthur Hunt Fails To Refute Behe

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I do enjoy reading ID’s most vehement critics, both in formal publications (such as books and papers) and on the, somewhat less formal, Internet blogosphere. Part of the reason for this is that it gives one something of a re-assurance to observe the vacuous nature of many of the critics’ attempted rebuttals to the challenge offered to neo-Darwinism by ID, and the attempted compensation of its sheer lack of explicative power by the religious ferocity of the associated rhetoric (to paraphrase Lynn Margulis). The prevalent pretense that the causal sufficiency of neo-Darwinism is an open-and-shut case (when no such open-and-shut case for the affirmative exists) never ceases to amuse me.

One such forum where esteemed critics lurk is the Panda’s Thumb blog. A website devoted to holding the Darwinian fort, and one endorsed by the National Center for Selling Evolution Science Education (NCSE). Since many of the Darwinian heavy guns blog for this website, we can conclude that, if consistently demonstrably faulty arguments are common play, the front-line Darwinism defense lobby is in deep water.

Recently, someone referred me to two articles (one, two) on the Panda’s Thumb website (from back in 2007), by Arthur Hunt (professor in Department of Plant and Soil Sciences at the University of Kentucky). The first is entitled “On the evolution of Irreducible Complexity”; the second, “Reality 1, Behe 0” (the latter posted shortly following the publication of Behe’s second book, The Edge of Evolution).

The articles purport to refute Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity. But, as I intend to show here, they do nothing of the kind!

In his first article, Hunt begins,

There has been a spate of interest in the blogosphere recently in the matter of protein evolution, and in particular the proposition that new protein function can evolve. Nick Matzke summarized a review (reference 1) on the subject here. Briefly, the various mechanisms discussed in the review include exon shuffling, gene duplication, retroposition, recruitment of mobile element sequences, lateral gene transfer, gene fusion, and de novo origination. Of all of these, the mechanism that received the least attention was the last – the de novo appearance of new protein-coding genes basically “from scratch”. A few examples are mentioned (such as antifreeze proteins, or AFGPs), and long-time followers of ev/cre discussions will recognize the players. However, what I would argue is the most impressive of such examples is not mentioned by Long et al. (1).

There is no need to discuss the cited Long et al. (2003) paper in any great detail here, as this has already been done by Casey Luskin here (see also Luskin’s further discussion of Anti-Freeze evolution here), and I wish to concern myself with the central element of Hunt’s argument.

Hunt continues,

Below the fold, I will describe an example of de novo appearance of a new protein-coding gene that should open one’s eyes as to the reach of evolutionary processes. To get readers to actually read below the fold, I’ll summarize – what we will learn of is a protein that is not merely a “simple” binding protein, or one with some novel physicochemical properties (like the AFGPs), but rather a gated ion channel. Specifically, a multimeric complex that: 1. permits passage of ions through membranes; 2. and binds a “trigger” that causes the gate to open (from what is otherwise a “closed” state). Recalling that Behe, in Darwin’s Black Box, explicitly calls gated ion channels IC systems, what the following amounts to is an example of the de novo appearance of a multifunctional, IC system.

Hunt is making big promises. But does he deliver? Let me briefly summarise the jist of Hunt’s argument, and then briefly weigh in on it.

The cornerstone of Hunt’s argument is principally concerned with the gene, T-urf13, which, contra Behe’s delineated ‘edge’ of evolution, is supposedly a de novo mitochondrial gene that very quickly evolved from other genes which specified rRNA, in addition to some non-coding DNA elements. The gene specifies a transmembrane protein, which aids in facilitating the passage of hydrophilic molecules across the mitochondrial membrane in maize – opening only when bound on the exterior by particular molecules.

The protein is specific to the mitochondria of maize with Texas male-sterile cytoplasm, and has also been implicated in causing male sterility and sensitivity to T-cytoplasm-specific fungal diseases. Two parts of the T-urf13 gene are homologous to other parts in the maize genome, with a further component being of unknown origin. Hunt maintains that this proves that this gene evolved by Darwinian-like means.

Hunt further maintains that the T-urf13 consists of at least three “CCCs” (recall Behe’s argument advanced in The Edge of Evolution that a double “CCC” is unlikely to be feasible by a Darwinian pathway). Two of these “CCCs”, Hunt argues, come from the binding of each subunit to at minimum two other subunits in order to form the heteromeric complex in the membrane. This entails that each respective subunit have at minimum two protein-binding sites.

Hunt argues for the presence of yet another “CCC”:

[T]he ion channel is gated. It binds a polyketide toxin, and the consequence is an opening of the channel. This is a third binding site. This is not another protein binding site, and I rather suppose that Behe would argue that this isn’t relevant to the Edge of Evolution. But the notion of a “CCC” derives from consideration of changes in a transporter (PfCRT) that alter the interaction with chloroquine; toxin binding by T-urf13 is quite analogous to the interaction between PfCRT and chloroquine. Thus, this third function of T-urf13 is akin to yet another “CCC”.

He also notes that,

It turns out that T-urf13 is a membrane protein, and in membranes it forms oligomeric structures (I am not sure if the stoichiometries have been firmly established, but that it is oligomeric is not in question). This is the first biochemical trait I would ask readers to file away – this protein is capable of protein-protein interactions, between like subunits. This means that the T-urf13 polypeptide must possess interfaces that mediate protein-protein interactions. (Readers may recall Behe and Snokes, who argued that such interfaces are very unlikely to occur by chance.)

[Note: The Behe & Snoke (2004) paper is available here, and their response (2005) to Michael Lynch’s critique is available here.]

Hunt tells us that “the protein dubbed T-urf13 had evolved, in one fell swoop by random shuffling of the maize mitochondrial genome.” If three CCC’s really evolved in “one fell swoop” by specific but random mutations, then Behe’s argument is in trouble. But does any of the research described by Hunt make any progress with regards to demonstrating that this is even plausible? Short answer: no.

Hunt does have a go of guesstimating the probabilistic plausibility of such an event of neo-functionalisation taking place. He tells us, “The bottom line – T-urf13 consists of at least three ‘CCCs’. Running some numbers, we can guesstimate that T-urf13 would need about 10^60 events of some sort in order to occur.”

Look at what Hunt concludes:

Now, recall that we are talking about, not one, but a minimum of three CCC’s. Behe says 1 in 10^60, what actually happened occurred in a total event size of less that 10^30. Obviously, Behe has badly mis-estimated the “Edge of Evolution”. Briefly stated, his “Edge of Evolution” is wrong. [Emphasis in original]

Readers trained in basic logic will take quick note of the circularity involved in this argumentation. Does Hunt offer any evidence that T-urf13 could have plausibly evolved by a Darwinian-type mechanism? No, he doesn’t. In fact, he casually dismisses the mathematics which refutes his whole argument. Here we have a system with a minimum of three CCCs, and since he presupposes as an a priori principle that it must have a Darwinian explanation, this apparently refutes Behe’s argument! This is truly astonishing argumentation. Yes, certain parts of the gene have known homologous counterparts. But, at most, that demonstrates common descent (and even that conclusion is dubious). But a demonstration of homology, or common ancestral derivation, or a progression of forms is not, in and of itself, a causal explanation. Behe himself noted in Darwin’s Black Box, “Although useful for determining lines of descent … comparing sequences cannot show how a complex biochemical system achieved its function—the question that most concerns us in this book.” Since Behe already maintains that all life is derivative of a common ancestor, a demonstration of biochemical or molecular homology is not likely to impress him greatly.

How, then, might Hunt and others successfully show Behe to be wrong about evolution? It’s very simple: show that adequate probabilistic resources existed to facilitate the plausible origin of these types of multi-component-dependent systems. If, indeed, it is the case that each fitness peak lies separated by more than a few specific mutations, it remains difficult to envision how the Darwinian mechanism might adequately facilitate the transition from one peak to another within any reasonable time frame. Douglas Axe, of the biologic institute, showed in one recent paper in the journal Bio-complexity that the model of gene duplication and recruitment only works if very few changes are required to acquire novel selectable utility or neo-functionalisation. If a duplicated gene is neutral (in terms of its cost to the organism), then the  maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six. If the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer (not inclusive of the duplication itself). One other study, published in Nature in 2001 by Keefe & Szostak, documented that more than a million million random sequences were required in order to stumble upon a functioning ATP-binding protein, a protein substantially smaller than the transmembrane protein specified by the gene, T-urf13. Douglas Axe has also documented (2004), in the Journal of Molecular Biology, the prohibitive rarity of functional enzymatic binding domains with respect to the vast sea of combinatorial sequence space in a 150 amino-acid long residue (Beta-Lactamase).

What, then, can we conclude? Contrary to his claims, Hunt has failed to provide a detailed and rigorous account of the origin of T-urf13. Hunt also supplies no mathematical demonstration that the de novo origin of such genes is sufficiently probable that it might be justifiably attributed to an unguided or random process, nor does he provide a demonstration that a step-wise pathway exists where novel utility is conferred at every step (being separated by not more than one or two mutations) along the way prior to the emergence of the T-urf13 gene.

The Panda’s Thumb are really going to have to do better than this if they hope to refute Behe!

Comments
DrBot: The image of the Virgin cannot be explained by scientists. Do you understand this and recognize this? If scientific methods fail to provided an explanation for an image---that is, a pattern, a design!---that is there for all to see, then, please, tell me what 'caused' the image to appear. Is it not an agency that falls outside of 'natural laws'? If you answer, "no", then why can't the image be explained using what is known of natural laws? The purpose of this exercise---an exercise that Mathgrrl keeps running away from---is to get you, and others, to see the effect of presupposing that everything can be explained by---and only!---forces acting according to natural laws. The effect is to limit what it is you can explain. The ID argument simply says that natural explanations, i.e., Darwinian mechanisms, are too limited: they CAN'T explain what we see happening in living entities. From the fact that the tilma's image cannot be reduced to natural forces, one is required to infer an outside agency. If you refuse to do that with what is right there before your eyes, and documented scientifically, then what chance is there you will make the proper inference to outside agency when the 'image' is 'hidden', so to speak? None, really. Thus, your inability, or unwillingness, to infer outside agency DRIVES you toward any kind of putative natural explanation for existent life---for, after all, that is all that Darwinism amounts to. Maybe you do it because you don't want to believe in God. Maybe Darwin did it because he couldn't believe that God would "create" the kinds of malignant things we find in nature. But these are theological/metaphysical concerns; not scientific. (N.B. I would recommend a very close reading of the first chapter of the Book of Job when we attack the issue of malignancy in our world.) From a purely scientific perspective, just as scientist say they cannot explain the image on Juan Diego's tilma, so, too, should they say they can't explain the diverse richness of life via Darwinian mechanisms. Humility is a good thing.PaV
February 28, 2011
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F/N: Dr Bot, once you see the role of D/RNA and the stored code in the manufacture and despatching of proteins to target points in the cell and even beyond it, it is quite plain that no D/RNA, and no code, no living cell. And there is absolutely zero evidence of operational metabolising and self-replicating biological life that is not based on cellular technologies; autocatalytic reaction sets don't even come close. Even, viri are parasites that hijack cellular machinery. So, since the D/RNA with their codes are a necessary part of the cell's core operations, then it is in fact reasonable to draw the conclusion that they were there from the beginning. Without them, no cell. And, they are replete with dFSCI, which we have excellent empirical and analytical grounds to see as a reliable sign of intelligent cause. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 28, 2011
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Stephen: Sadly, yes. Gkairosfocus
February 28, 2011
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Dr.Bot and Mathgirl to ID: ID supporters, explain yourself" ID: "OK. We know for a fact that the activities of intelligent agents always leave clues in the form of design patterns. Those same design patterns exist in nature, so we conclude that they, too, were caused by an intelligent agent." ID to DrBot and Mathgirl: "Darwinists explain yourself." DrBot and Mathgirl: "OK. We have no evidence whatsoever to justify our claim that naturalistic processes alone generated biodiversity. However, we have a strong faith in Darwinism that compensates for our lack of evidence. DrBot and Mathgirl to ID: "Your inference to the best explanation based on evidence is not good enough. Our leap of faith based on our fondest hopes is more than good enough." Welcome to the wacky world of Darwinism.StephenB
February 28, 2011
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DrBot and MathGrrl, please address the question I asked you,,, if you did not understand the full implications that this 'quantum' dilemma presents to the neo-Darwinian framework, let me try to make it simpler. Quantum entanglement is shown to be an effect that is instantaneous and universal, The Failure Of Local Realism – Materialism – Alain Aspect – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 i.e. entanglement is shown to be completely transcendent of any constraints of time or space, and entanglement is also shown to exercise dominion of 'material' particles. Particles which are themselves constrained by time and space. Yet, recently, quantum entanglement was shown to be integral in molecular biology,, Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to. Explanation: None, at least not yet.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ ,,,Yet how can entanglement in biology possibly be explained by by the reductive materialistic/local realism framework of neo-Darwinism when entanglement falsified the validity of reductive materialism in the first place??? It is simply ludicrous to appeal to the framework that has been falsified by the very effect you are seeking to explain!bornagain77
February 28, 2011
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Collin
A design inference is, IMO, just as legitimate as an inference to the Big Bang based on the redshift of light
Good point, but, as with physics, how do you proceed to test the hypothesis experimentally? Big bang theory offers us ways of testing the hypothesis, how do we test the ID hypothesis as it pertains to a specific question in biology? (e.g. origins of life)DrBot
February 28, 2011
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Mathgrrl, As to your first and third questions, I think that there is no empirical evidence. But as to your second I would say that the bacterial flagellum is empirical evidence of design. A computer is also empirical evidence of design. The design hypothesis does require an inference, but inferences are made in scientific hypotheses all the time. A design inference is, IMO, just as legitimate as an inference to the Big Bang based on the redshift of light and even more legitimate than the "multiverse" inference which has no empirical evidence whatsoever other than the mere existence of our universe.Collin
February 28, 2011
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The digital code in D/RNA is there for all to see (...) and is so integral to how cells work that it was there from their origin. It is by definition, empirical.
It is observed, its origins were not, as you point out:
we are looking at the remote, unobservable past.
Yet you also claim:
it was there from their origin.
Now you say
So, the failure of providing evidence that chance plus necessity without intelligence can give rise to dFSCI, coupled to strained dismissals, shows only too plainly the real problem: ideological a prioi materialism, and associated question begging and selective hyperskepticism.
So when we don't know if something is possible we should conclude that some unobserved entity did it - a priori theism perhaps? - does this mean we should stop investigating? Not me, I prefer "We don't know" when I'm doing science. Time to think again, and without ideological blinkers, methinks. I have no problem entertaining the idea that the unknown is explainable by reference to God, but that doesn't stop be from checking to see if it is actually the result of Gods universe operating according to his rules. Mathgrrl is asking for evidence in support of the hypothesis that an intelligent entity intervened to create life, or to alter life. You claim that life cannot arise through the natural laws that (I believe) God created, therefore you are citing your belief that another hypothesis (natural processes) won't work as evidence in support of this hypothesis - Mathgrrl is asking for evidence in support of the ID hypothesis. Not good enough I'm afraid, and remember, chemistry is not random, what chemistry can do cannot be determined by looking at the output of a random number generator.DrBot
February 28, 2011
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MG: Do you imagine that by mislabelling instantiation as analogies, and by begging the question of empirically tested reliable signs, you can conclude:
I see some analogies, some attempted arguments against evolutionary theory, and some assertions about the purpose of ID, but no references to empirical evidence[?]
I suggest you take the time to read here, and in the onward linked, then respond on merits, not strawman mislabelling and begged questions. The digital code in D/RNA is there for all to see [it is not an analogy, it is instantiation, of a 4-state digital code that is also an algorithm, implemented through cellular, molecular scale nanomachines . . .which is what ribosomes etc plainly are], and is so integral to how cells work that it was there from their origin. It is by definition, empirical. It is a fact in evidence, and the only empirically reliable and infinite monkeys theorem credible source of such digitally coded, functionally specific, complex information -- on billions of test cases -- is intelligence. Further to this, we are looking at the remote, unobservable past. If you are consistent instead of selectively hyperskeptical, you just wrote off all claimed evidence of the origins past. but of course, you are not, you want to project tot the past the idea that chance chemistry and survival of what worled, was enough to create the cell out of whatever version of Darwin's warm little pond you faqvou5r. Only problem, you are trying to oppose to a known sufficient cause of dFSCI, what is credibly not causally sufficient. So, the failure of providing evidence that chance plus necessity without intelligence can give rise to dFSCI, coupled to strained dismissals, shows only too plainly the real problem: ideological a prioi materialism, and associated question begging and selective hyperskepticism. Time to think again, and without ideological blinkers, methinks. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 28, 2011
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MathGrrl, since I just asked Dr. Bot, I will ask you the same, Since quantum entanglement falsified reductive materialism, and since quantum entanglement is found embedded in life,,, Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ ,,, and since neo-Darwinism is premised upon reductive materialism, and quantum entanglement is found embedded in life, is not neo-Darwinism falsified since its reductive materialistic foundation is shown to be completely disconnected from the effect to be explained in the first place? If not, please explain exactly why not.bornagain77
February 28, 2011
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I've read through the responses since my last post on this thread and I see some analogies, some attempted arguments against evolutionary theory, and some assertions about the purpose of ID, but no references to empirical evidence. I don't want to put words in peoples' mouths, so I ask ID proponents to point out where I might have missed something. As near as I can tell, the following statements are true: - There is no empirical evidence that any intelligent agent existed at the time during which "design" presumably took place in the evolution of life on Earth. - There is no empirical evidence that any particular biological artifact is the result of intelligent agency. - There is no empirical evidence demonstrating how an intelligent agent might have manipulated a particular biological artifact. A scientific hypothesis is an explanation for empirical observations. Without any such observations, ID cannot logically derive an hypothesis. Without an hypothesis, no testable predictions can be made. This inability to answer the who, what, when, where, and how questions is why ID is not considered scientific. I am very interested in learning about the positive evidence for ID, the hypotheses that explain that evidence, and the testable predictions that those hypotheses entail. Can anyone here provide references?MathGrrl
February 28, 2011
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Dr. Bot. please for give me for jumping in here, but I noticed you stated; 'certainly not evidence of divine intervention in biological processes.' It seems to me that there is now a 'fingerprint' of 'divine intervention in biological processes'; First we find that quantum entanglement falsifies reductive materialism (local reality),,, The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html ,,, and yet reductive materialism/local realism is the premise that neo-Darwinism is built on, and thus when quantum entanglement is found in biology,,, Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ ,,, Dr. Bot, does that not also falsify the reductive materialistic conjecture in biology of neo-Darwinism??? If not, why not? further note; Of related note; there is a mysterious 'higher dimensional' component to life: The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/#comment-369806 4-Dimensional Quarter Power Scaling In Biology - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5964041/ Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for 'random' Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this 'four dimensional scaling' of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional 'expectation' for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an 'emergent' property of the 3-D material realm. Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? A.C. McINTOSH Excerpt: It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. http://journals.witpress.com/journals.asp?iid=47bornagain77
February 28, 2011
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Does the tilma of Juan Diego represent sufficient evidence to you of outside agency?
Was the tilma of Juan Diego the result of divine intervention and how do we establish if it is - all we have to go on are some accounts from the 15th centuary, which vary and some of which refer to it as being painted by a native Mexican whilst others calim it appeared out of nowhere. I'm afraid I don't consider your personal belief that it is of divine provenance to count much as evidence, certainly not evidence of divine intervention in biological processes.DrBot
February 28, 2011
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KB: I am actually citing Dembski's reply to Miller of 2003. Gkairosfocus
February 28, 2011
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Mr Hunt "refutes" me concerning human chromosome 2 by: 1) misrepresenting what I'd said; 2) misrepresenting current scientific knowledge; 3) misrepresenting Darwinism; 4) engaging in easily identified logical fallacies ... and I'm no one. So, it seems to me that it rather stands to reason the Mr Hunt will be compelled to do likewise as he "refutes" Mr Behe.Ilion
February 27, 2011
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Intelligent Design is about the design not the designer(s)- that is its limits. But given any design inference the natural questions are "who, how, why, ie purpose, (where & when)". IOW research questions borne from the design inference, meaning the design inference is not a dead-end.Joseph
February 27, 2011
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---Pedant: "How does the ID scientist know her limitations? How does she know that there is a boundary to her inquiry concerning design in nature?" I don't think that the ID scientist knows her limitations in a final sense, but only in the context of the paradigm that she chosen. Perhaps a more expansive paradigm would reveal more information and allow the researcher to probe more deeply into the nature of the designer. What potential information, for example, is available to the researcher who conceives and applies the scientific paradigm of "irreducible complexity," or, for that matter, "specified complexity." It seems to me that the former yields information about the organism's unity, while the latter tells us something about its function. But notice that, in the first case, at least, I am using a philosophical principle [unity] to shed light on and interpret information made available by science. With science we can examine facts, isolate variables, and measure things, but with philosophy we can, perhaps, get at the meaning and significance of science's findings. Each discipline has its own methods, and each pursues one aspect of truth, but I think it is a mistake to put up a wall of separation between them. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of philosophy to illuminate science and not the other way around. Science can do nothing on its own. Without the first principles of right reason as a foundation, for example, science cannot even begin to function. ---"Again, What is the empirical/deductive process of reasoning that accounts for the confidence of the ID scientist that the nature of the designer is out of reach?" I am not sure that the nature of the designer is out of reach for science, in principle, but I think that the paradigm that the researcher chooses is self-limiting in the sense that it asks only a small number of questions for the sake of focus and precise measurement. Science does require certain trade offs, I think. Normally, the scientist only gets answers to the questions he/she asks. It takes a lot of skill to formulate those questions and isolate other questions. However, there is such a thing as serendipity and I wouldn't presume to rule it out. Sometimes, we do get answers to questions that we didn't ask, but only because we had enough disciplined control over what we were doing to recognize the anomalies that appear. Can science tell us about the designer's capacity for creativity, power, and intent. I suspect that it can with the help of philosophical reasoning, but I don't know if it can do it on its own. Evidence does, after all, need to be interpreted, and only philosophy can provide the rules of reason that eventually do the interpreting.StephenB
February 27, 2011
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Pedant:
Again, What is the empirical/deductive process of reasoning that accounts for the confidence of the ID scientist that the nature of the designer is out of reach? In the absence of direct observation or deigner input, the only possible way to makany scientificdetermination about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used, is by studying the design in quesion. With forenics the evidence and data don't always point to the criminal. It takes detective work to flesh him/ her out. So we do what we can with what we have available- resource and evidence wise. Heck how long have we been trying to unravel Stonehenge? Yet the best we can say is "humans didit".
Joseph
February 27, 2011
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Arthur Hunt:
(This is, of course, one of the points of the T-urf13 example. It shows quite clearly that functionality, even irreducible complexity, is not the stupendous impossibility that is claimed by Behe and others.)
Arthur, you are confused. How may components does t-urf13 code for? How many components in that irreducibly complex system? Comnare that to Dr Behe's mousetrap and you will see your example doesn't measure up. As for recombinations- how as it determined that recombinations are lind watchmaker processes?Joseph
February 27, 2011
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Miller: "Hence Miller’s reference to “an outside designer violat[ing] the very laws of nature he had fashioned.” Kairo: "As I’ve pointed out to Miller on more than one occasion, this criticism is misconceived... Intelligent design therefore makes an epistemological rather than ontological point."
And unlike what Miller does, ID does not make a theological point. Miller does this when he rejects ID on the basis of "an outside designer violat[ing] the very laws of nature he had fashioned." Firstly, ID does not necessarily claim that the designer of earth's life is "outside of the laws of nature". Secondly, even if the designer is outside the "laws of nature", the "laws of nature" are A) merely man's description of the regular patterns of evidence of nature as we know it, and B) there is no reason why the designer should be limited by these regularities other than THEOLOGICAL reasons. Miller is free to reject whatever he wants for whatever reasons he wants, but in this case, the reason is patently theological, and not on any scientific basis.kornbelt888
February 27, 2011
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StephenB:
The ID scientist, unlike the Darwinist, knows his limitations, meaning that he doesn’t make claims that he cannot defend. The current ID paradigms cannot detect the designer’s modus operandi and the ID scientist knows that.
Thank you for your courtesy in replying so informatively. I will not pursue this matter further, except to ask, How does the ID scientist know her limitations? How does she know that there is a boundary to her inquiry concerning design in nature?
If you mean “is the designer’s “identity” out of reach for current scientific paradigms, the answer would be yes.
Again, What is the empirical/deductive process of reasoning that accounts for the confidence of the ID scientist that the nature of the designer is out of reach?Pedant
February 27, 2011
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MathGrrl[53]:
No, my question is: Where is the empirical evidence to support the claim that an intelligent designer exists and did intervene in the evolution of life on this planet?
So we're right back to what I originally said:
Math Girl, if you can’t explain the tilma’s image, then admit outside agency. If you refuse to admit outside agency, then admit that you’re completely closed to the possibility of any kind of outside agency.
Does the tilma of Juan Diego represent sufficient evidence to you of outside agency? It would seem that if an image can appear out of nowhere and you deny that an outside agency CAN and DOES intervene in bringing it about, then what possible evidence would ever satisfy you when it comes to the world of biology. So, it gets back to my originalPaV
February 26, 2011
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StephenB, the knowledge is there for the gap to be bridged, if someone comes along (a genius) who can synthesize it into proper logical form that will truly be a thing of beauty.bornagain77
February 26, 2011
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bornagain, I am not sure we disagree, but I am definitely intrigued by this subject matter. When I say that ID cannot bridge the gap between the designer's existence and the designer's identity, I speak mainly of the formal ID paradigms that stop at the functional threshold, as is the case with Dembski, Behe, Meyer et al. or those which stop at measuring finely-tuned constants. I am not prepared to say, in principle, that science is confined to that level of discovery, so we may be on the same wavelength here. Indeed, as Father Thomas Dubay, Benjamin Wiker, and others have pointed out, nature exhibits beauty as well as design, and science can, at some level, measure beauty, especially in terms of balance and proportion. That fact alone points to something more than the existence of a designer. All we may need is one more genius to stand on Behe's and Dembski's shoulders [I consider each to be a genuis] and conceive a new paradigm that will make the hoped for stretch. Or, perhaps someone else is working in a mode I don't know about and has already broken the ice. I do not think, though, that we can do it without that new paradigm and that new genius. What do you think?StephenB
February 26, 2011
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StephenB, this is one of the few times I find that I disagree with you somewhat, for I think we live at such a privilege time of 'advanced' knowledge, into the workings of nature, through quantum mechanics, special and general relativity, that it is possible to 'know' with a very high degree of certainty, the transcendent characteristics of the Designer. But seeing as the atheists/neo-Darwinists who visit UD will not even concede the blatantly obvious fact that vastly superior design exists in life, I have to agree with you that your approach is by far the most pragmatic, since it does indeed lend itself most readily and primarily to defend the main point to be defended against the neo-Darwinists. i.e. that life clearly exhibits all the hallmarks of a superior craftsman.bornagain77
February 26, 2011
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--Pedant: "Why not? Why would that be a presumption? What is preventing ID from investigating the designer’s modus operandi?" The ID scientist, unlike the Darwinist, knows his limitations, meaning that he doesn't make claims that he cannot defend. The current ID paradigms cannot detect the designer's modus operandi and the ID scientist knows that. So, he makes only a modest claim that he can support with evidence: certain features in nature were likely designed. It is not necessary to know how a thing was designed in order to know that it was designed, as any archeologist or forensic scientist will attest. --Is the designer assumed or posited to be beyond the reach of empirical research?" If you mean "is the designer's "identity" out of reach for current scientific paradigms, the answer would be yes. If you mean is the fact of the designer's "existenc" of out reach," the answer would be no. [It is not incumbent on the scientist to validate a hypothesis that he doesn’t make…] ---"On the contrary, it is incumbent on anyone who makes an empirical knowledge claim to acknowledge the existence of entailments of that claim and to respond to challenges." The logic of entailments does not require a scientist to explain anything outside of the paradigmatic constructs he is using. Indeed, it would be impossible to do so since it would rule out the possibility of measurement. "Irreducible complexity," for example, is a claim about function. It is not a claim about a process. Darwinism is a claim about a process. ID scientists provide evidence that the functions they observe have been designed. Darwinists, on the other hand, provide no evidence that their process they describe can do what they say it can do. ---"It looks like you employ a double standard of criticism." I simply ask the scientist to show me his methods and provide evidence for the claims he makes, not for the methods he doesn't use or claims he doesn't make. What could be more reasonable than that? ---"If by “process,” you mean how something works, that has become a key question for science since the 16th Century." Yes, a key question, but not the only question.StephenB
February 26, 2011
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kf, I beg your patience. I don't want to be your adversary. I don't see that as a pathway to increasing my understanding of Intelligent Design as a scientific program. I do think it would assist my understanding if you or StephenB would kindly answer the question that I posed to him above:
What is preventing ID from investigating the designer’s modus operandi? Is the designer assumed or posited to be beyond the reach of empirical research?
I hope you will consider that a fair question.Pedant
February 26, 2011
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F/N 2: I should add to the above, that not all scientific questions are dynamical. Some are historical of factual, indeed there used to be a term, natural history. Others, are about cause. And, here we have three main classes of cause: chance, mechanical necessity (what dynamics like Newtonian dynamics are classically about) and intelligence. When, for instance, one wishes to scientifically validate the Glasgow Coma Scale, one is not interested in the dynamics by which conscious mind gives rise to speech, just that speech that is contextually responsive and coherent, is a sign of consciousness. And, that scale is used in literally life or death situations. That should -- pardon the directness, but it seems well warranted and needed -- underscore the underlying intellectual irresponsibility of the evasive distractors that have been presented above. We know on abundant evidence that FSCO/I is a reliable index pointing to intelligence as its cause. The proposition of the evolutionary materialistic establishment, is that chance plus necessity are causally sufficient to account for it. On being challenged to empirically substantiate such a claim without begging questions, we routinely see - as again above -- evasions, turnabout tactics, and the like. That pattern -- a very familiar one for those of us who had to deal with Marxists and the like 30 years ago -- tells us beyond reasonable doubt that the evo mat position is ideological, not scientific. And so, one of the most important services of ID theory to the cause of the advancement of science, is to help liberate science from ideological captivity. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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UB: Welcome. Information can be explicitly coded in dFSCI. It can be implicit in organisation of discrete elements, and it can be implicit in the 3-d structure of a unified entity that takes a functionally specific form, i.e. whatever specifies the mould from which it came, or the NC machine or the like. Gkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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F/N: Onlookers, in the already linked discussion in response to Miller on the T3SS, in 2003, Dembski responded to the sort of objection just above as follows: _____________ >>Conflating ID with Interventionism: According to Miller, intelligent design "requires that the source of each and every novelty of life was the direct and active involvement of an outside designer whose work violated the very laws of nature he had fashioned.... The notion at the heart of today's intelligent design movement is that the direct intervention of an outside designer can be demonstrated by the very existence of complex biochemical systems" Miller and I have discussed this criticism in public debate on several occasions. By now [2003!] he should know better. Intelligent design does not require organisms to emerge suddenly or be specially created from scratch by the intervention of a designing intelligence. To be sure, intelligent design is compatible with the creationist idea of organisms being suddenly created from scratch. But it is also perfectly compatible with the evolutionist idea of new organisms arising from old by a process of generation. What separates intelligent design from naturalistic evolution is not whether organisms evolved or the extent to which they evolved but what was responsible for their evolution. Naturalistic evolution holds that material mechanisms [= chance plus necessity, which as you can see eight years later we still cannot get a sound empirical support for] alone are responsible for evolution (the chief of these being the Darwinian mechanism of random variation and natural selection). Intelligent design, by contrast, holds that material mechanisms are capable of only limited evolutionary change and that any substantial evolutionary change would require input from a designing intelligence. Moreover, intelligent design maintains that the input of intelligence into biological systems is empirically detectable, that is, it is detectable by observation through the methods of science. For intelligent design the crucial question therefore is not whether organisms emerged through an evolutionary process or suddenly from scratch, but whether a designing intelligence made a discernible difference regardless how organisms emerged. For a designing intelligence to make a discernible difference in the emergence of some organism, however, seems to Miller to require that an intelligence intervened at specific times and places to bring about that organism and thus again seems to require some form of special creation. This in turn raises the question: How often and at what places did a designing intelligence intervene in the course of natural history to produce those biological structures that are beyond the power of material mechanisms? Thus, according to Miller, intelligent design draws an unreasonable distinction between material mechanisms and designing intelligences, claiming that material mechanisms are fine most of the time but then on rare (or perhaps not so rare) occasions a designing intelligence is required to get over some hump that material mechanisms can't quite manage. Hence Miller's reference to "an outside designer violat[ing] the very laws of nature he had fashioned." As I've pointed out to Miller on more than one occasion, this criticism is misconceived. The proper question is not how often or at what places a designing intelligence intervenes but rather at what points do signs of intelligence first become evident. Intelligent design therefore makes an epistemological rather than ontological point. To understand the difference, imagine a computer program that outputs alphanumeric characters on a computer screen. The program runs for a long time and throughout that time outputs what look like random characters. Then abruptly the output changes and the program outputs the most sublime poetry. Now, at what point did a designing intelligence intervene in the output of the program? Clearly, this question misses the mark because the program is deterministic and simply outputs whatever the program dictates. There was no intervention at all that changed the output of the program from random gibberish to sublime poetry. And yet, the point at which the program starts to output sublime poetry is the point at which we realize that the output is designed and not random. [notice, dFSCI as a reliable and recognisable sign of design] Moreover, it is at that point that we realize that the program itself is designed. But when and where was design introduced into the program? Although this is an interesting question, it is ultimately irrelevant to the more fundamental question whether there was design in the program and its output in the first place. We can tell whether there was design (this is ID's epistemological point) without introducing any doctrine of intervention (ID refuses to speculate about the ontology of design) Intelligent design is not a theory about the frequency or locality at which a designing intelligence intervenes in the material world. It is not an interventionist theory at all. Indeed, intelligent design is perfectly compatible with all the design in the world being front-loaded in the sense that all design was introduced at the beginning (say at the Big Bang) and then came to expression subsequently over the course of natural history much as a computer program's output becomes evident only when the program is run. This actually is an old idea, and one that Charles Babbage, the inventor of the digital computer, explored in the 1830s in his Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (thus predating Darwin's Origin of Species by twenty years). Let's be clear, however, that such preprogrammed evolution would be very different from evolution as it is now conceived. Evolution, as currently presented in biology textbooks, is blind -- nonpurposive material mechanisms run the show. Within this naturalistic conception of evolution, the origin of any species gives no evidence of actual design because mindless material mechanisms do all the work. Within a preprogrammed conception of evolution, by contrast, the origin of some species and biological structures would give evidence of actual design and demonstrate the inadequacy of material mechanisms to do such design work. Thus naturalistic evolution and preprogrammed evolution would have different empirical content and be distinct scientific theories. Of course, such preprogrammed evolution or front-loaded design is not the only option for the theory of intelligent design. Intelligent design is also compatible with discrete interventions at intermittent times and diverse places. Intelligent design is even compatible with what philosophers call an occasionalist view in which everything that occurs in the world is the intended outcome of a designing intelligence but only some of those outcomes show clear signs of being designed. In that case the distinction between natural causes and intelligent causes would concern the way we make sense of the world rather than how the world actually is (another case of epistemology and ontology diverging). We may never be able to tell how often or at what places a designing intelligence intervened in the world or even whether there was any intervention in Miller's sense of violating natural laws. But that's okay. What's crucial for the theory of intelligent design is the ability to identify signs of intelligence in the world -- and in the biological world in particular -- and therewith conclude that a designing intelligence played an indispensable role in the formation of some object or the occurrence of some event. That is the start. Often in biology there will be clear times and locations where we can say that design first became evident. But whether that means a designing intelligence actually intervened at those points will require further investigation and may indeed not be answerable. As the computer analogy above indicates, the place and time at which design first becomes evident need have no connection with the place and time at which design was actually introduced. In the context of biological evolution, this means that design can be real and discernible in evolutionary change without requiring an explicit "design event," like a special creation, miracle, or supernatural intervention. At the same time, however, for evolutionary change to exhibit actual design would mean that material mechanisms were inadequate by themselves to produce that change. The question, then, that requires investigation is not simply what are the limits of evolutionary change, but what are the limits of evolutionary change when that change is limited to material mechanisms. This in turn requires examining the material factors within organisms and in their environments capable of effecting evolutionary change. The best evidence to date indicates that these factors are inadequate to drive full-scale macroevolution. Something else is required -- intelligence. >> ______________ In short, we are seeing an old long since cogently rebutted tactic replayed, and to the same evasive end. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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