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On worshiping the right God: Jerry Coyne asks a sensible question

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It had to happen sooner or later. Professor Jerry Coyne has identified what he sees as an inconsistency in Dr. William Lane Craig’s Divine Command theory of ethics, and after reading his latest post on the subject, I have to agree that Coyne is basically right and Craig is wrong. Consider the following statements by Professor Craig (see here and here):

Remember: on perfect being theology, God is a maximally great being, a being which is worthy of worship.

According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God.

On voluntaristic theories God’s commands are based upon His free will alone. He arbitrarily chooses what values are good or bad and what our obligations and prohibitions are….

Most divine command theorists [including Craig himself – VJT] are non-voluntarists who hold that moral values are not grounded in God’s will but in His nature. Moral duties are grounded in His will or commands; but moral values are prior to His will, since God’s own nature is not something invented by God. Since His will is not independent of His nature but must express His nature, it is logically impossible for Him to issue certain sorts of commands. In order to do so, He would have to have a different nature, which is logically impossible. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

So far, so good, but Craig also says this:

On divine command theory, then, God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

One might ask: could God legitimately command someone to kill, then, or would that be murder? Craig responds:

No, it’s not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God’s commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder.

Comments Coyne:

If that’s not voluntaristic DCT [Divine Command Theory], I don’t know what is. It basically says that God’s commands ARE the arbiter of right and wrong.

I have to say that I think Coyne has a legitimate point here. In order for Professor Craig to extricate himself from the inconsistency that he appears to have fallen into, he would have to do the following:

(1) show that there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do, because they would be contrary to His character;
(2) specify at least some of these things that God cannot command us to do; and
(3) explain why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Meeting the first requirement is fairly easy, if one defines God as a maximally perfect (and hence, all-loving) being, as Craig does. For then it follows that God could not command any action which can only be justified by appeal to values which run contrary to universal love.

The real problem, as I see it, lies in the second requirement. Consider the example of torture. If the infliction of torture is not self-evidently wrong, then it is hard to see what would be. But now consider a surgeon operating on a patient back in the old days before anesthetics had been invented. Surgical patients had to be forcibly held down during operations, because the pain was so great. Was that torture? “Obviously not!”, I hear you reply. “After all, the surgeon was intending to heal the patient, and the infliction of pain was unintentional.” But now consider this: what if God is like a surgeon, inflicting pain on us for our own good? C.S. Lewis explored this possibility in his book, A Grief Observed:

The terrible thing is that a perfectly good God is in this matter hardly less formidable than a Cosmic Sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe that there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed—might grow tired of his vile sport—might have a temporary fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intentions are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is, the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary, then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good Being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren’t.

But now ask yourself this: what if God, instead of inflicting these tortures on us Himself for our own good, were to ask some human being to inflict them, acting in His name? Would it be possible for an all-loving God to command someone to do that? If you are inclined to answer “Yes,” then you can no longer hold that God could never command us to torture someone.

“But surely,” it will be urged, “an all-loving God could never command the torture of innocent children?” Not so fast. What if God (by virtue of His infallible foreknowledge) foresees that if a certain degree of suffering is not inflicted on this child, he will grow up to become a bad person, and eventually be damned? Would it then be consistent with the character of an all-loving God to command a human being to inflict the torture on the child – perhaps because it would have a more salutary effect on the child if it is inflicted by a human authority figure (e.g. a parent or schoolmaster)? And where does one draw the line between corporal punishment and torture, anyway? It seems that someone acting with good intentions, and at the behest of a Being possessing unlimited foreknowledge could justly inflict any degree of pain on an innocent human being, provided they knew that it was necessary for that person’s ultimate good.

Now, someone might object that while it would be theoretically possible for God to act in this way, it would be epistemically irrational for any human being to trust what purported to be a vision of God commanding them to torture someone: for how could they be sure that the Being in the vision was God, and not the Devil? And since critical reason is a God-given gift, God could hardly blame us for prudently rejecting any such command – which in turn means that it could never be obligatory, which implies that God could never justly command such a thing in the first place. But this objection assumes that it is impossible in principle for a human being to distinguish a vision from God and one from the Devil. That hardly seems likely. And if it were true, it would rule out the possibility of our having a warranted belief in any revealed religion.

One way out of this ethical impasse would be to hold that there are certain things which it is morally acceptable for God to do, but which He may not command human beings to do. On this view, it may be all right for Him to inflict painful tribulations on people, for the sake of their ultimate good (i.e. their eternal salvation), but it could never be right for Him to command us to inflict these tribulations on our fellow human beings.

Fair enough; but then the nagging question arises: why, precisely? Why would it be wrong principle for us to do these things to others, if God may licitly do them? One plausible answer is that it would violate some principle of fellowship which we share with our fellow human beings: all men are brothers, and you don’t torture your own brother. But you don’t kill your own brother, either. If torturing another human being contravenes the principle of fellowship, then surely killing another human being does so, too. In that case, Professor Craig will be unable to meet the third requirement I specified above: explaining why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Another possible answer is that the act of inflicting torture is inherently desensitizing, for the person who inflicts it: it hardens the torturer’s heart and dehumanizes him in the process, corrupting his soul and placing his own salvation in mortal peril. And since God cares about the salvation of each and every human being, He could not justly command one person to inflict torture on another human being: while the act just might (conceivably) prove to be conducive to the eternal salvation of the victim, it would at the same time jeopardize the eternal salvation of the torturer. But once again, it seems that the same train of logic would rule out the possibility of God commanding one human being to kill another. For if killing someone is not desensitizing, then what is?

There’s another problem with the “desensitization” argument, too. God, being omnipotent, can heal the wounds of the heart. That which has been desensitized, he can re-sensitize. What if God were to reassure the torturer that He would reverse the hardening of the heart resulting from obeying His commands – or even better, prevent it from occurring in the first place?

Perhaps, then, we need a more radical solution. Perhaps it would be wrong not only for human beings, but also for God to deliberately inflict pain on human beings, even if it is intended for the sake of their ultimate good (e.g. to break their stubborn pride and induce them to repent). “Why?” one might ask. Because the supposition is premised on the assumption that God knows what would happen to us if the pain were not inflicted – in other words, that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, if placed in these particular circumstances (e.g. the statement that if I were to suffer paralysis, I would repent and turn to God). But if we have genuine libertarian free will, then it seems that such statements make no sense: for what they amount to is a kind of psychological determinism.

This sounds more promising, but it also entails that God may not justly bring about someone’s death for the sake of procuring their salvation – a conclusion that some believers may find surprising and even counterintuitive.

Another apparent problem with the radical solution proposed above is that while it seems absurd to suppose that there is a there is a true counterfactual statement about what I would or would not choose, in each and every possible situation, there are surely at least some true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations. For instance, if I were starving, I would surely eat a piece of bread that was dangled in front of my nose. And if I were an alcoholic, then there are surely some situations in which I would find a glass of wine irresistible.

Now, a libertarian might grant this, but still urge that to the extent that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations, then precisely to that extent, my will is not genuinely free. And since decisions which are not genuinely free are not truly choices on my part, they cannot possibly be conducive to my ultimate good or eternal salvation. (For if I am eventually saved, it can only be through some freely chosen act on my part, even if the supernatural grace required to make that choice can only come from God.) Hence it would be impossible for God to appeal to these counterfactuals in order to justify inflicting pain or death on innocent people.

In that case, then, we have to conclude that God is not like the surgeon after all: He does not inflict pain or death on people for their ultimate good.

So where are we now? It seems that the acts which God cannot command us to do – and which God cannot justly do either – are simply those which are not good for us. And we cannot appeal to counterfactuals about good consequences that would occur or bad consequences that would be avoided, in order to justify the performance of these acts. For as we have seen, these counterfactuals are irrelevant to the extent that we possess libertarian free will.

So far we have only spoken of the innocent, but what of the guilty? May God justly punish the guilty? Surely the answer is yes. May He then command human beings to punish the guilty, acting in His name? And if so, is there any limit to the punishment that one human being may inflict upon another, when acting at God’s behest?

Here, it seems, the difficulty is genuine. For whatever one thinks of corporal and capital punishment, there are surely some cases where the infliction of these punishments brings wicked people to their senses, causing them to repent of their sins. And who among us (little children excepted) is not guilty of some personal sin? (I am not speaking here of original sin.) It seems, then, that there is no reason in principle why God could not justly command one person to punish another. And the severity of that punishment might amount to what we would call torture.

The only answer I can propose here is that it would be out of place for God to ask a creature to perform a task which belongs to the Creator. Judgement of the wicked is a task for God (Who sees into our souls) to perform; punishments inflicted on the basis of that judgement are also God’s responsibility, not ours. Not can it be urged that the State is an instrument of God’s Will in this regard; for the purpose of the State is not to secure absolute justice, but social harmony, and lawbreakers are punished only insofar as they disrupt this harmony by tearing a hole in the fabric of society. For this reason, a pure theocracy, in which human judges strove to be instruments of God’s Will, would be a fundamentally immoral society.

And that’s about as far as my deliberations have taken me. But perhaps I have overlooked something. What do readers think?

One last request. Could we please keep the Bible out of the arguments below, for the sake of polite discussion? I’d like readers to try to resolve the difficulties I have posed above, by appealing to general ethical principles. And now, over to you.

Comments
VJT,
But if we have genuine libertarian free will, then it seems that such statements make no sense: for what they amount to is a kind of psychological determinism.
I think that God plays it right down the middle. If He allows his presence to overwhelm us, for example, our behavior is psychologically determined since we are simply taken in with His majesty and we will have no choice but to be good. If, on the other hand, He provides no indication whatsoever of his existence, our behavior is equally determined inasmuch as all hope is lost and we will not even try to be good. Thus, God give us just enough information that we could go either way and are, thus. responsible for which way we go. Thus, our free will, in that context, would not seem to indicate psychological determinism.StephenB
September 21, 2014
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BTW - please ignore the grammatical and typographical errors above. ( e.g. "does NO invalidate ARE theory" ). I have often requested that permission be given to authors of posts to correct the grammatical errors in their posts. It does NOT invalidate OUR arguments if we are not accurate typists, or make an incorrect substitution of a homophone in a statement.JDH
September 21, 2014
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Hi Dionisio, for myself, I find education to be a valuable means of sharing moral, religious and spiritual teachings. I'm not sure why you disagree with that, but you seem to have strong beliefs about your views and I appreciate that. Thanks.Silver Asiatic
September 21, 2014
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Barry Arrington
I believe we submit to the tension between God’s sovereignty and our free will not by pure reason but by faith. Therefore, any suggestion that we can resolve the problem on the basis of general revelation or human reason alone is doomed to fail. Like the seemingly logically incoherent notion of the triune God itself, this is one of those places where our faith requires us to depend on special revelation and to affirm the truths taught in that special revelation even when we do not fully understand them.
:)Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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VJT - I think you have major problems in your thinking. You are making some arbitrary assumptions which cloud your judgement. It appears that you are trying to evaluate ONE moral act apart from the existence of all acts. "Is it wrong for God to ask someone to do (insert supposedly INDEPENDENT action here)?" I think we can learn something from physics here. A lot of the science of physics is learning what can be ignored AND how to estimate the error that is introduced by ignoring that factor. Physics also entails knowing when no answer is available at all without considering non-locality, non-linearity, etc. Thus when trying to solve for the trajectory of the baseball given its initial direction and velocity, we can choose to ignore wind resistance, and then admit our answer is only good for a baseball in reasonable conditions to within a certain error. It is important to be able to estimate what the error is. That way, a specific instance of a baseball being thrown in a hurricane does no invalidate are theory. Our answer is only good ignoring wind resistance. Sometimes the wind effects are so great that it is impossible to ignore them. For example, what is the trajectory of a baseball, given its initial direction and velocity, if thrown into a tornado. The problem is that the initial conditions are totally wiped out by the chaotic nature of the wind pattern in a tornado. There is no calculation we can do to get close to the right answer because the answer depends upon the trajectory inside a strong wind field with non-zero curl (i.e. the streamlines of flow double back onto each other ). There is NO way to figure out what can be ignored because the effect can not be ignored. So here is your problem. You are conflating the case where it is simple to decide INDEPENDENTLY whether an act is moral, with the case where all acts have to be summed up together to decide the morality of it. Bear in mind that the arbitrary distinction in time of what you consider a SINGLE act is just that, an arbitrary distinction. Sometimes that arbitrary distinction of labeling an act as something whose morality can be judged INDEPENDENT of all other actions is valid. A proper estimation can be done of the morality of that act ignoring all other acts. God gives us moral rules to help us in those cases. ( i.e. Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal). These moral laws help us because they give absolute guidance for actions where the estimate that this is an INDEPENDENT act is valid and gives the correct answer. However, in some cases, the arbitrary split of actions into INDEPENDENT moral actions is not valid. This is because the judgement of the action can not be estimated given the non-local in time evaluation that must take place. Your estimate of the action as a separate action falls apart because other actions ( which will occur later in time ) effectively make your answer not true. When considering actions of GOD, we must realize that GOD is a timeless creature that we can't even begin to comprehend. So as long as we try to insert the actions of GOD or the actions GOD asks a human to do into the finite time domain, we can only make an estimate about whether the action is moral or not based on a time-bound estimate of true morality and our assumption that this action can be judged independently. We can not make an absolute determination because the second we try to evaluate the arbitrarily labeled SINGLE action, we are making an invalid assumption. Thus your argument falls apart, not because there are compensations ( i.e. God doing one SINGLE act because it will be compensated by another SINGLE action in the future ) or justifications ( i.e. God doing one SINGLE act because it prevents another SINGLE worse act in the future ). Your argument falls apart because in the acts considered it is not valid to arbitrarily separate these as SINGLE actions. The morality of the whole events of time must be judged as one action over time. I hope this is clear. If not the blame is on me. I am trying to use the analogy of physics to show how we must differentiate between the cases where it is possible to estimate the morality of a SINGLE act, and where the totality of all acts must be considered to arrive at a good judgement. Conflating these two types of actions can get us confused.JDH
September 21, 2014
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#22 Silver Asiatic
D: The horrendous atrocities committed in the extermination camps in the referred years have not much to do with the power of modern weaponry at all. Please, try another explanation.
SA: In this case modern technology. How would you transport people to die in gas chambers before railroads and before poison gas? More importantly those crimes were committed by a small minority of humanity.
Let's put your latest statements against your original statements on your post #6
SA: As spiritual learning increases over generations, moral awareness increases. People learn more about God and pass that learning on. The human population was less educated, in general, in the past. So, moral understanding can be refined.
Many people who perpetrated and supported those crimes were very educated. Education 'per se' does not lead to better morality. Just look around us now. Remember that for cannibals it's fine to eat another person, although to you and me is a horrendous abomination. Education is good, but there must be an absolute moral standard against which we can measure all our thoughts and activities. That's priceless. The rest can be purchased with VISA or MasterCard. :) Here's an example of a German woman, who probably was not the most educated in that society, but referred to an absolute standard, hence she did not like the new doctrine they were imposing in those dark years of their history: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0825441595?ie=UTF8&tag=httpwwwgoodco-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0825441595&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2 Here's an example of a German man, who did not want to accept the imposed doctrine in those dark days: http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Hitler-Stories-Wilhelm-1897-1966/dp/0852349149/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396439821&sr=1-5&keywords=wilhelm+busch Both, the lady, along with her family, and the preacher, had one important thing in common: they both measured thoughts and actions according to an absolute standard that told them to love God with all your mind and strength (vertical component of the cross) and to love their neighbors as they loved themselves (horizontal component of the cross). They simply didn't want to compromise their principles. Unfortunately, many did compromise and surrendered -our of fear or for convenience- to the evil philosophy of the group in power. The rest is known history. A sad one for that matter. :( Jeremiah wrote that our hearts are deceiving and can't be understood. No education can remedy that. God has offered one unique cure. It's up to each of us to accept it or reject it. One day every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Christ is Lord. By then, it will be too late for many. That's why we should constantly say the good news to all. Some will still hear and recognize the voice of their Master and run to Him as prodigal children.Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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Because the supposition is premised on the assumption that God knows what would happen to us if the pain were not inflicted – in other words, that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, if placed in these particular circumstances (e.g. the statement that if I were to suffer paralysis, I would repent and turn to God). But if we have genuine libertarian free will, then it seems that such statements make no sense: for what they amount to is a kind of psychological determinism.
Christian X is a Calvinist. He believes in the concept of sovereign election or predestination. He believes that from the beginning of the universe God in his sovereignty intended for him to become a Christian. He believes in the “I” of TULIP, that the God’s grace is irresistible, which means he had no choice in the matter. This leaves little room for free will. Christian Z is an Arminian. He believes God gives us the ability to choose (or to reject) him, and the fact that God has perfect foreknowledge about who will choose him and who will reject him is not inconsistent with affirming that each person is nevertheless free to choose. This leaves little room for absolute determinism. I believe the two views cannot be reconciled. Either I have a choice or I do not have a choice. Either God is absolutely sovereign or he is not. I personally believe I have a choice. I also believe God is absolutely sovereign. I affirm both propositions, because they are both affirmed in scripture. I must live with the tension between those apparently contradictory beliefs until some day when “I know even as also I am known.” For now, it seems to me that this is one of those things we see only “through a glass darkly.” I think we have a hint about the truth in Romans 8: “those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.” If predestination were the only concept in view here, the comment about his foreknowledge would be superfluous; Paul might just as well have written “he predestined some to be conformed to the image of his Son.” Working on the assumption that the phrase is not superfluous, we ask ourselves why it is there. A possible answer is that God in his perfect foreknowledge knows absolutely how each person will exercise his free will. Based on that perfect foreknowledge he predestines each person to be saved or not according to how they will choose anyway. It is a mystery how his absolute foreknowledge about my choice can be reconciled with calling it a choice. At the very least, it seems to me that there is some scriptural warrant for rejecting the “absolute foreknowledge” equals “psychological determinism” premise of VJT’s argument. And this brings me to why I broke VJT’s rule about quoting scripture. As a Christian I believe we submit to the tension between God’s sovereignty and our free will not by pure reason but by faith. Therefore, any suggestion that we can resolve the problem on the basis of general revelation or human reason alone is doomed to fail. Like the seemingly logically incoherent notion of the triune God itself, this is one of those places where our faith requires us to depend on special revelation and to affirm the truths taught in that special revelation even when we do not fully understand them. Thus, VJT might just as well have written, please present an argument for how God can be three and one at the same time; don't quote scripture. Can't be done.Barry Arrington
September 21, 2014
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#16 William J Murray
WJM: God doesn’t give commands in any significant sense of the term.
Dionisio: Can you prove it?
WJM: Of course not. I’m expressing my personal view, which I can argue for.
Dionisio: Agree, you can't prove it, hence your statement could be false in absolute terms. Therefore, God may give commands, according with the purpose of His sovereign will. Arguing won't change this.
WJM: God no more has to (or can) “command” what is right in a given situation.
Dionisio: How do you know that? Can you prove it?
WJM: It’s a belief, not knowledge. Of course I can’t prove it, although I can argue for it.
Dionisio: Which means that what you wrote is not true in absolute terms. Is it? God may not have to command anything, but He may want to, according to the purpose of His will. And as you well stated, you can't prove it or disprove it. Therefore your statement could be false in absolute terms. Arguing won't change this.
WJM: It’s just not reasonable to commit what one knows to be an otherwise immoral act because one thinks god is commanding him to do so.
Dionisio: what one knows? How does one know? one thinks? Is this OP about what we think or about what God commands?
WJM: which should the person in question consider to be less fallible – his innate sense of morality, or his capacity to understand that it is in fact God that is commanding him to do what appears to be something immoral?
Dionisio: Very simple: both are equally fallible, because both are subjective, i.e. not absolute, hence both could be wrong. Where does that person get "his innate sense of morality" from? How? In any context, how can that person discern a command from wishful thinking or biased preference? Maybe Hitler claimed to be under divine guidance to lead his people to a better future, but genuine followers of the One who claimed to be "Via, Veritas et Vita", would have seen an irreconcilable conflict between His command to love our neighbors as we love ourselves vs. the Nazi party's Kristallnacht, just to provide an example, though there are many more available in recent history. There are some examples of German citizens who did not want to compromise with the Nazi doctrine: http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Hitler-Stories-Wilhelm-1897-1966/dp/0852349149/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396439821&sr=1-5&keywords=wilhelm+busch http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0825441595?ie=UTF8&tag=httpwwwgoodco-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0825441595&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2 However, even that command, given by Jesus Himself, has to be analyzed very carefully in exegetical details: what does it mean "as one loves oneself"? Well, that's a long discussion that does not fit in this post, but basically, every statement we hear, read, write or say, should be tested against an absolute standard, before we can conclude on its validity. And we should be open to constructive criticism. At the end of the day, the real problem is what one uses as the ultimate absolute standard. That's priceless. Everything else can be purchased with VISA or MasterCard. :)Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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Candylolz @23, thanks for the kind words. We both seem to agree that this is a vitally important topic.StephenB
September 21, 2014
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Mung
Third, the nature of God can’t depend on the fallible interpretation of fallible men of a book written and/or passed on by fallible men.
Important point. When it comes to divine commands, what we get in the bible has been mediated to us indirectly. The command was usually received by one person (some exceptions are when the command was received by a group "this is my beloved son, listen to him"). Then there is the writer of the book. After that there is an interpreter of the written word explaining what is a command and what isn't (Book of Leviticus, for example).Silver Asiatic
September 21, 2014
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From a Christian perspective which means that the bible has to be a relevant issue, God is unfathomable because He is infinite and we are mere slugs in comparison. In Job, the worms have a better understanding of humans then we have of God. Yes, we can know some aspects of Him from reason and we know more from revelation. But it is just a spoonful out of the ocean. If God commands some human to kill, God is doing the killing and there is no big deal here for Christians. Life on this earth for every creature is infinitesimally brief and the shortening of anyone's life by God is so small as to make no difference. The Christian God offers eternity for all, so that any shortening of a life or even millions of lives is insignificant. We must assume as Christians that God has plans for those who lives are shortened by others or natural events. When one focuses on the loss of worldly benefits or happiness, then we are saying that this is more important than what God extends to everyone for eternity. Eternity is something that is hard to understand so we emphasize what we do know and that is existence here and now. But for Christians that is a lesser importance. I am not saying God does not want something out of us while we are here and who knows how we will be judged. Maybe, we are obliged to make existence on earth as nice as possible. Groundhog Day was an illustration of what we should be doing on earth but it is not the end game. To look on the actions in this world in terms of earthly happiness only is in the end trivial for those who believe in salvation. That is why any argument about evil is meaningless. Because the so called evil act is trivial unless in has relevance for salvation. So maybe the bible in certain areas has to be an issue since it says that what happens here in terms of well being in irrelevant except as it is a means for us to achieve something higher. The atheist does not believe in God but he cannot make us some criteria of a God for others that doesn't exist. Coyne is not addressing the Christian God with his examples, only some make believe creature that he hopes will discredit something that says he is wrong in what he believes.jerry
September 21, 2014
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I really liked your comment StephenB. Very well put.Candylolz
September 21, 2014
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The horrendous atrocities committed in the extermination camps in the referred years have not much to do with the power of modern weaponry at all. Please, try another explanation.
In this case modern technology. How would you transport people to die in gas chambers before railroads and before poison gas? More importantly those crimes were committed by a small minority of humanity.Silver Asiatic
September 21, 2014
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It seems evident that Divine Command theory, precisely because it seems to attribute a different morality to God than to us, must be wrong. Surely, morality can be rational only if it is understood in terms of God’s unchanging nature. Otherwise, we fall into the same trap as Islam and the irrational notion that God can literally change His mind about what is right and wrong. Who wants to aim at a moving moral target? Who wants to build a life of virtue and self-sacrificial love only to have God pull the rug out at the last minute with a new set of rules? At the same time, it seems evident that we just don’t know all there is to know about morality, although we can deepen our understanding through time. It is a question of progressive knowledge. If we could live long enough and remain good enough (be holy like God), we would eventually come to the point where we think exactly like God about all moral issues. Accordingly, we do not need the Bible in the beginning since we can apprehend the natural moral law through the exercise of our reason. Indeed, one can build a credible moral life and learn good moral habits by consulting the wisdom of conscience, unless of course, conscience has been compromised through ideological brainwashing or immoral behavior. However, morality doesn't end there because natural moral law also bids us to follow the light we are given, and part of the task in following that light is to continue searching, which means being open to Divine revelation--if that revelation is grounded in rationality, and if it has the capacity to illuminate reason once it has passed the test of reason. Although the Old and New Testaments present the same moral law, for example, The Ten Commandments do not contain the subtle aspects found in the Sermon on the Mount, which in turn, does not articulate every possible detail that a saint would learn who has been applying the unchanging Biblical morality to his ever-changing circumstances for fifty years. Wisdom = morality + reason + practice. Obviously, God doesn’t need practice, being the manifestation of perfect wisdom. He understands and lives by the same moral code that we do, while understanding it at a deeper level. Just as humans, who have advanced beyond a primitive knowledge of morality, can know that it is moral to kill an aggressor to save one’s own life, God may know (I am speculating) that it is moral to kill if is necessary to preserve His plan of salvation. It’s just a question of having a deeper understanding of the same moral law. Humans are responsible for knowing right from wrong, meaning that they must follow their rational understanding of the moral law, but they are also responsible for knowing what they don’t know, meaning that they may not play God and presume to decide who deserves to live and die or who should suffer and who should not. When it comes to the morality of suffering, many factors come into play. There is the question of guilt or innocence, the degree of suffering, its duration, the reasons it is deemed necessary, what the end result will be, and the capacity of the sufferer to endure it. Thus, it doesn’t follow that when God does something that we cannot immediately justify, that He is playing by a different set of rules. It is more the case that He understands the rules better than we do, meaning that we do not have enough wisdom to weight all the variables and cannot, therefore, presume to act as if we did. Although a ten year old child has free will, he will exercise that free will under different moral circumstances than an adult, who, by virtue of his maturity and experience, is better equipped to appropriate the natural moral law in complex circumstances. In this case, it is the child’s moral duty, though he is bound by the same moral law as adults, to obey his parents because he is not equipped to decide on some moral matters. In like fashion, we must, under some circumstances, obey God until we gain sufficient understanding to go ahead on our own. We already know that God allows a measure of suffering and even asked his own Son to endure it for our sake. So suffering, while evil, is not unconditionally evil. That doesn’t mean we can ask our children or someone else to suffer for some perceived motive, nor does it mean that God is playing by a different set of rules than we are. It’s simply a question of knowing what we know, knowing what we don’t know, and acting accordingly.StephenB
September 21, 2014
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Hypothetical questions are problematic because they require you to accept something bizarre as the Immutable Truth, and then act on it. The resulting implication is that this hypothetically immutable truth has equal standing to anything you accept on faith---after all, someone might be just as convinced of the hypothetical truth as you are of yours. For example: * If God were truly evil, delighting in carnage an suffering while lying to his creation, would you join the devil in a rebellion against such a God? (After all, carage and suffering is easily observable, and God claims he's all powerful.) * If it could be demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt that women unconsciously enjoyed rape, and it were proven scientifically beyond any shadow of doubt that the greater genetic diversity that resulted were vital for the survival of the human race, would you accept this important role and rape women? * If the voices in your head were truly from God, and you were ordered to assassinate your postman, would you obey God? Well then, what right do you have in critizing someone with different beliefs if they hold to them in all sincerity? If the premise is false, everything else that follows is untrustworthy. How do you really tell? Jesus said that you would be able to key a tree from its fruit, the results. He also said that his sheep would know his voice, which implies a personal revelation of some kind. Personal revelation through a dream or vision is a common experience in some religiously oppressive countries. -QQuerius
September 21, 2014
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#15 Silver Asiatic
The number of people killed in modern wars is a function of modern weaponry.
The horrendous atrocities committed in the extermination camps in the referred years have not much to do with the power of modern weaponry at all. Please, try another explanation. Thank you.Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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It seems to me that there shouldn't be a problem bringing the Bible in at this point in the argument. The argument has already been made that if objective moral values and duties exist at all, they must be ultimately grounded in the nature of God, or, more specifically, that moral values are rooted in his nature and his commands, issued in accord with his nature, constitute our moral duties. The challenge here seems to be that, on Divine Command Theory, there exists a potential for God to issue commands to humans that are contrary to what we perceive our objective moral values and duties to be, such that God might command us to torture someone; perhaps a child. Well, it seems to me, based on the title of this post (among other things), that what we're interested in here is a particular model of Divine Command Theory, situated within a particular framework of belief, that works and is not subject to this problem. If the Christian one, and specifically the Biblical one, gives us that, why should we ignore it? After all, we're not trying to prove God's existence at this point. All we're doing at this point is trying to determine whether there's a system of belief that is consistent with the extra-Biblical arguments for God's existence and also happens to resolve some of the secondary questions they may raise, such as this one.HeKS
September 21, 2014
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Why not have a God that’s based on the bible, otherwise your just making up a story?
Why present a false dichotomy? First, Christianity holds that the attributes of God can be known through natural reason. Second, the Bible hasn't always been available to all people. Third, the nature of God can't depend on the fallible interpretation of fallible men of a book written and/or passed on by fallible men.Mung
September 21, 2014
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WJM:
God doesn’t give commands in any significant sense of the term.
Dionisio:
Can you prove it?
Of course not. I'm expressing my personal view, which I can argue for. WJM:
God no more has to (or can) “command” what is right in a given situation.
Dionisio::
How do you know that? Can you prove it?
It's a belief, not knowledge. Of course I can't prove it, although I can argue for it. WJM:
It’s just not reasonable to commit what one knows to be an otherwise immoral act because one thinks god is commanding him to do so.
Dionosio:
what one knows? How does one know? one thinks? Is this OP about what we think or about what God commands?
It's a matter of premise characterizations. The premise vjtorley uses is one reconciling a supposed command from god that appears to conflict with what the person in question would otherwise consider to be immoral. Command morality as a concept has a problem here - which should the person in question consider to be less fallible - his innate sense of morality, or his capacity to understand that it is in fact God that is commanding him to do what appears to be something immoral? I don't know how Craig or anyone else solves this dilemma (not to mention the free will dilemma it raises); it's not part of my moral philosophy. I don't believe god issues commands in any meaningful sense of the word - well, any more than gravity issues commands.William J Murray
September 21, 2014
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Dionisio
spiritual learning? What’s that?
It's teaching, learning and knowledge about religion, spiritual values, moral obligations, prayer, theology, etc.
moral awareness increases? On what basis? On education?
Yes, in the fullest extent of what education means.
Wasn’t the world population more educated in the 1940s than before that time? So why were more people massacred in those years than in the preceding years?
A couple of answers ... 1. The people in Noah's time were worse since God had to wipe out all of humanity except for Noah's family. 2. The number of people killed in modern wars is a function of modern weaponry. The USA, for example, killed about 200,000 people by dropping atomic bombs on Japan. That kind of rapid death-rate would not have been possible in previous generations. I'll just say that it's difficult to measure the spiritual and moral quality of a population based on the number of people killed in wars. Often, wars and their consequences are the decisions of only a small minority within the public.Silver Asiatic
September 21, 2014
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Peter #10
Why not have a God that’s based on the bible, otherwise your just making up a story?
Not everybody accepts the bible as divine or authoritative.
Would an all-loving god wipe out all of humanity except Noah and his family, Sodom, etc.
God is all-good. So God loves the good. All-loving doesn't mean that God loves both good and evil in equal measure.
Everything thing written on this subject is a total waste of time until you can incorporate an understanding of God that is based on God’s revelation.
As above, not everybody accepts the Bible as true revelation. If you have to start with an acceptance that the Bible is true, then there's no argument against atheism since the bible says that God exists. The only argument there is "accept that the bible is true". But that doesn't work very well for people who don't accept it. You have to show that God exists and has a certain nature without reference to the bible, at least at first.
... Western civilization. It turned secular from Christian ... In America secular whites are being replaced by Hispanics ...
Hispanics are predominantly Christian, so as they replace secular whites, that's a good thing, right?Silver Asiatic
September 21, 2014
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@Peter http://www.str.org/blog/why-would-a-loving-god-create-a-place-like-hell#.VB7WNOdqS3sVunderGuy
September 21, 2014
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@Peter You forget, as many people often do, that in addition to his Mercy, God is also Just. http://www.str.org/Search?q=Hell+VunderGuy
September 21, 2014
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#6 Silver Asiatic
As spiritual learning increases over generations, moral awareness increases. People learn more about God and pass that learning on. The human population was less educated, in general, in the past. So, moral understanding can be refined.
spiritual learning? What's that? moral awareness increases? On what basis? On education? Wasn't the world population more educated in the 1940s than before that time? So why were more people massacred in those years than in the preceding years? Thank you.Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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" maximally perfect (and hence, all-loving) " Why not have a God that's based on the bible, otherwise your just making up a story? Would an all-loving god wipe out all of humanity except Noah and his family, Sodom, etc. Everything thing written on this subject is a total waste of time until you can incorporate an understanding of God that is based on God's revelation. God must be feared by his worshipers. That is a divine command stated numerous times in the bible. And why must he be feared if he is only loving? Obviously he is not only loving, He will evict any unworthy tenant, in other words he will wipe the unworthy off the face of the earth. If this is to abstract for you to understand try looking at what is happening to Western civilization. It turned secular from Christian. Shortly afterward feminism lowered the birth rate below replacement (the family is the means God created to sustain the life of a society). Now the secular are being rapidly replaced by God fearing Muslims. In America secular whites are being replaced by Hispanics and Muslims. 'Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the world." So try incorporating the basic truths of God before you waste your time building this worthless theology.Peter
September 21, 2014
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"But if we have genuine libertarian free will, then it seems that such statements make no sense: for what they amount to is a kind of psychological determinism." Ummm... no... God knowing what any creature would freely do in a given situation does not imply that we don't have free will, Libertarian of otherwise and the assertion that it does assumes that the number of actions and situations a person my find themselves in is are both A) Unpredictable, B) That Predictability and Free Will are uncompatable and C) That the number of actions and situations a person may do and may find themselves in go on ad infinitum.VunderGuy
September 21, 2014
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#1 William J Murray
It’s just not reasonable to commit what one knows to be an otherwise immoral act because one thinks god is commanding him to do so.
what one knows? How does one know? one thinks? Is this OP about what we think or about what God commands? In any situation -i.e. at work, on the street, in the army, etc.- how does one recognize a command? IOW, how to distinguish an authorized command from personal wishful thinking? Then how does one recognize the authority of the entity issuing such a command? For example, at work or in the army or even in the street traffic, how does one distinguish a command from a rumor or opinion or biased preference or convenience? Also, how does one understand the exact meaning of a command? Thank you.Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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I think listening to Craig himself on the subject a bit more would be a bit more enlightening. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/argument-from-morality http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-god-a-consequentialist http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-moral-values-be-based-in-god http://www.reasonablefaith.org/if-isis-god-were-real-would-i-be-obliged-to-follow-him http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument-for-god http://www.reasonablefaith.org/how-are-morals-objectively-grounded-in-godVunderGuy
September 21, 2014
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1. Why is an all-powerful being, like the one or ones who created the universe, worthy of worship,
Because that being is All-Good. Worship = Love. The more good a thing is, the more it is worthy of being loved (worshipped).
and why would such beings care that we worshipped them?
Because that being wants what is best, so therefore wants us to love what is most Good.
3. Morality is a feature of human culture, and varies between cultures and over time within the same culture.
As spiritual learning increases over generations, moral awareness increases. People learn more about God and pass that learning on. The human population was less educated, in general, in the past. So, moral understanding can be refined.Silver Asiatic
September 21, 2014
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#1 William J Murray
God no more has to (or can) “command” what is right in a given situation...
How do you know that? Can you prove it? Is that an absolute statement? Thank you.Dionisio
September 21, 2014
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