Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Optimus, replying to KN on ID as ideology, summarises the case for design in the natural world

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The following reply by Optimus to KN in the TSZ thread, is far too good not to headline as an excellent summary of the case for design as a scientifically legitimate view, not mere  “Creationism in a cheap tuxedo”  ideology motivated and driven by anti-materialism and/or a right-wing, theocratic, culture war mentality commonly ascribed to “Creationism” by its objectors:

______________

>> KN

It’s central to the ideological glue that holds together “the ID movement” that the following are all conflated:Darwin’s theories; neo-Darwinism; modern evolutionary theory; Epicurean materialistic metaphysics; Enlightenment-inspired secularism. (Maybe I’m missing one or two pieces of the puzzle.) In my judgment, a mind incapable of making the requisite distinctions hardly deserves to be taken seriously.

I think your analysis of the driving force behind ID is way off base. That’s not to say that persons who advocate ID (including myself) aren’t sometimes guilty of sloppy use of language, nor am I making the claim that the modern synthetic theory of evolution is synonymous with materialism or secularism. Having made that acknowledgement, though, it is demonstrably true that (1) metaphysical presuppostions absolutely undergird much of the modern synthetic theory. This is especially true with regard to methodological naturalism (of course, MN is distinct from ontological naturalism, but if, as some claim, science describes the whole of reality, then reality becomes coextensive with that which is natural). Methodological naturalism is not the end product of some experiment or series of experiments. On the contrary it is a ground rule that excludes a priori any explanation that might be classed as “non-natural”. Some would argue that it is necessary for practical reasons, after all we don’t want people atributing seasonal thunderstorms to Thor, do we? However, science could get along just as well as at present (even better in my view) if the ground rule is simply that any proposed causal explanation must be rigorously defined and that it shall not be accepted except in light of compelling evidence. Problem solved! Though some fear “supernatural explanation” (which is highly definitional) overwhelming the sciences, such concerns are frequently oversold. Interestingly, the much maligned Michael Behe makes very much the same point in his 1996 Darwin’s Black Box:

If my graduate student came into my office and said that the angel of death killed her bacterial culture, I would be disinclined to believe her…. Science has learned over the past half millenium that the universe operates with great regularity the great majority of the time, and that simple laws and predictable behavior explain most physical phenomena.
Darwin’s Black Box pg. 241

If Behe’s expression is representative of the ID community (which I would venture it is), then why the death-grip on methodological naturalism? I suggest that its power lies in its exclusionary function. It rules out ID right from the start, before even any discussions about the emprical data are to be had. MN means that ID is persona non grata, thus some sort of evolutionary explanation must win by default. (2) In Darwin’s own arguments in favor of his theory he rely heavily on metaphysical assumptions about what God would or wouldn’t do. Effectively he uses special creation by a deity as his null hypothesis, casting his theory as the explanatory alternative. Thus the adversarial relationship between Darwin (whose ideas are foundational to the MST) and theism is baked right into The Origin. To this very day, “bad design” arguments in favor of evolution still employ theological reasoning. (3) The modern synthetic theory is often used in the public debate as a prop for materialism (which I believe you acknowledged in another comment). How many times have we heard the famed Richard Dawkins quote to the effect that ‘Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist’? Very frequently evolutionary theory is impressed into service to show the superfluousness of theism or to explain away religion as an erstwhile useful phenomenon produced by natural selection (or something to that effect). Hardly can it be ignored that the most enthusiastic boosters of evolutionary theory tend to fall on the atheist/materialist/reductionist side of the spectrum (e.g. Eugenie Scott, Michael Shermer, P.Z. Meyers, Jerry Coyne, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Peter Atkins, Daniel Dennett, Will Provine). My point simply stated is that it is not at all wrong-headed to draw a connection between the modern synthetic theory and the aforementioned class of metaphysical views. Can it be said that the modern synthetic theory (am I allowed just to write Neo-Darwinism for short?) doesn’t mandate nontheistic metaphysics? Sure. But it’s just as true that they often accompany each other.

In chalking up ID to a massive attack of confused cognition, you overlook the substantive reasons why many (including a number of PhD scientists) consider ID to be a cogent explanation of many features of our universe (especially the bioshpere):

-Functionally-specified complex information [FSCI] present in cells in prodigdious quantities
-Sophisticated mechanical systems at both the micro and macro level in organisms (many of which exhibit IC)
-Fine-tuning of fundamental constants
-Patterns of stasis followed by abrupt appearance (geologically speaking) in the fossil record

In my opinion the presence of FSCI/O and complex biological machinery are very powerful indicators of intelligent agency, judging from our uniform and repeated experience. Also note that none of the above reasons employ theological presuppositions. They flow naturally, inexorably from the data. And, yes, we are all familiar with the objection that organisms are distinct from artificial objects, the implication being that our knowledge from the domain of man-made objects doesn’t carry over to biology. I think this is fallacious. Everyone acknowledges that matter inhabiting this universe is made up of atoms, which in turn are composed of still other particles. This is true of all matter, not just “natural” things, not just “artificial” things – everything. If such is the case, then must not the same laws apply to all matter with equal force? From whence comes the false dichotomy that between “natural” and “artificial”? If design can be discerned in one case, why not in the other?

To this point we have not even addressed the shortcomings of the modern synthetic theory (excepting only its metaphysical moorings). They are manifold, however – evidential shortcomings (e.g. lack of empirical support), unjustified extrapolations, question-begging assumptions, ad hoc rationalizations, tolerance of “just so” stories, narratives imposed on data instead of gleaned from data, conflict with empirical data from generations of human experience with breeding, etc. If at the end of the day you truly believe that all ID has going for it is a culture war mentality, then may I politely suggest that you haven’t been paying attention.>>

______________

Well worth reflecting on, and Optimus deserves to be headlined. END

Comments
other mouth:
Yes, I can understand it was present before and after but logically the values would have changed.
Not necessarily- see "Signature in the Cell" for an explanation- or allow me: In a design scenario the information to make the change is already present. And that means, no there wasn't any change in value from before to after. Just as there wasn't any change in value with each generation of dawkins' "weasel". All the information was there from the beginning. And for the record- the other mouth won't understand any of that...Joe
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
04:17 AM
4
04
17
AM
PDT
F/N: Is anyone out there willing to argue that MS Office is optimal? Would one infer therefrom that its FSCO/I can be wholly accounted for on chance variation and happenstance of incremental improvements? KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
04:12 AM
4
04
12
AM
PDT
That was light ;)Joe
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
04:11 AM
4
04
11
AM
PDT
Joe, useful points, do, go a little light on tone. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
04:02 AM
4
04
02
AM
PDT
WJM: The setting up of a demanded standard of perfection as seen by us, is a strawman tactic. One that also ignores the problem of over-specialisation, AKA overly narrow optimisation leading to brittleness in a world of varying circumstances. Do such remember post optimality sensitivity analysis in courses that looked at optimisation? If your optimum is brittle, in the real world watch out! KF PS: BA, useful clips and links as so usual.kairosfocus
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
04:00 AM
4
04
00
AM
PDT
other mouth reponding to Optimus:
The problem I have is that given an arbitrary object, X, you cannot tell me how to calculate the FSCI/O present.
It all depends on the object. Some things are not easily amendable to FSCI/O. IOW it is a limited tool.
Nor can a generic pseudocode be given that describes how to calculate the FSCI/O present.
We have told you how to measure FSCI/O.
What is the FSCI/O in Lenski’s bacteria before and after they obtained the ability to digest citrate?
FSCI/O was present in both cases. It is present in ALL living organisms.
What is the FSCI/O in a point mutation before and after the mutation?
That doesn't even make any sense and exposes your total ignorance. And Lizzie chimes in with het=r usual nonsense:
We know that Dembski’s CSI can be created by Darwinian means, ...
Liar. No one has ever observed darwinian means producing CSI- NEVER. You are either a liar or just full of it. I notice that you didn't provide any evidence for your claim. Lizzie Liddle, long on bald assertions and nonsense. Very short on actual evidence.Joe
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
03:59 AM
3
03
59
AM
PDT
“Perfect design would truly be the sign of a skilled and intelligent designer. Imperfect design is the mark of evolution ...
One wonders what Coyne was referring to if, as Dr. Liddle and so many others say, there is no evidence of design in biological features. If there is no evidence of design in biological features, how can "imperfect design" be "the mark of evolution"?
Thus, to sum it all up, in order to rationally practice science in the first place, one is forced to make certain theological presuppositions about the comprehensibility of the universe and our ability to understand it.
Well said. The problem is, when you're debating those that refuse to accept that there is any objective source of truth or arbiter of true statements, they are free to wallow in self-refuting nonsense and sophistry. Unfortunately, by denying rationality as binding, and by denying free will, they have no means by which to extricate themselves from their foolishness.William J Murray
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
03:53 AM
3
03
53
AM
PDT
And to this Day we can still see this false conception of God, 'a false idol' if you will, that Darwin erected in 'Origin' grounding the primary arguments of Darwinism.
Dr. Seuss Biology | Origins with Dr. Paul A. Nelson - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVx42Izp1ek
In this following video Dr. William Lane Craig is very surprised to learn that evolutionary biologist Dr. Ayala uses theological argumentation in his book to support Darwinism and invites him to present evidence, any evidence at all, that Darwinism can do what he claims it can:
Refuting The Myth Of 'Bad Design' vs. Intelligent Design - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg
Here, at about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his, in my opinion, excellent lecture by noting, with surprise, that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do, and the critique from Nature was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism:
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
And in the following quote, Dr. John Avise explicitly uses his false conception as to what God would and would not allow so as to try to make his case for Darwinism:
It Is Unfathomable That a Loving Higher Intelligence Created the Species – Cornelius Hunter - June 2012 Excerpt: "Approximately 0.1% of humans who survive to birth carry a duplicon-related disability, meaning that several million people worldwide currently are afflicted by this particular subcategory of inborn metabolic errors. Many more afflicted individuals probably die in utero before their conditions are diagnosed. Clearly, humanity bears a substantial health burden from duplicon-mediated genomic malfunctions. This inescapable empirical truth is as understandable in the light of mechanistic genetic operations as it is unfathomable as the act of a loving higher intelligence. [112]" - Dr. John Avise - "Inside The Human Genome" There you have it. Evil exists and a loving higher intelligence wouldn’t have done it that way. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html
What’s especially ironic about Dr. Avise's theological argument for Darwinism from the overwhelming rate of negative mutations that his argument is actually(without Darwinian Theological blinders on), a very powerful ‘scientific’ argument against Darwinism: http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/evolution-professor-special-creation.html?showComment=1340994836963#c5431261417430067209 Here are a few more 'theological' quotes from Darwinists:
"The human genome is littered with pseudogenes, gene fragments, “orphaned” genes, “junk” DNA, and so many repeated copies of pointless DNA sequences that it cannot be attributed to anything that resembles intelligent design. . . . In fact, the genome resembles nothing so much as a hodgepodge of borrowed, copied, mutated, and discarded sequences and commands that has been cobbled together by millions of years of trial and error against the relentless test of survival. It works, and it works brilliantly; not because of intelligent design, but because of the great blind power of natural selection." – Ken Miller "Perfect design would truly be the sign of a skilled and intelligent designer. Imperfect design is the mark of evolution … we expect to find, in the genomes of many species, silenced, or ‘dead,’ genes: genes that once were useful but are no longer intact or expressed … the evolutionary prediction that we’ll find pseudogenes has been fulfilled—amply … our genome—and that of other species—are truly well populated graveyards of dead genes" – Jerry Coyne "We have to wonder why the Intelligent Designer added to our genome junk DNA, repeated copies of useless DNA, orphan genes, gene fragments, tandem repeats, and pseudo¬genes, none of which are involved directly in the making of a human being. In fact, of the entire human genome, it appears that only a tiny percentage is actively involved in useful protein production. Rather than being intelligently designed, the human genome looks more and more like a mosaic of mutations, fragment copies, borrowed sequences, and discarded strings of DNA that were jerry-built over millions of years of evolution." – Michael Shermer
Thus, to sum it all up, in order to rationally practice science in the first place, one is forced to make certain theological presuppositions about the comprehensibility of the universe and our ability to understand it. Darwin made many false theological presuppositions so as to ground his theory. Thus the current reasoning in evolution is built on, and absolutely reliant upon, a false conception of God that nobody really believes in in the first place. i.e. a 'strawman' version of God! Moreover, the theological 'bad design' argument, which Darwinists unwittingly continually use to try to make their case seem rational, is actually its own independent discipline of study within Theology itself called Theodicy:
Is Your Bod Flawed by God? - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: Theodicy (the discipline in Theism of reconciling natural evil with a good God) might be a problem for 19th-century deism and simplistic natural theology, but not for Biblical theology. It was not a problem for Jesus Christ, who was certainly not oblivious to the blind, the deaf, the lepers and the lame around him. It was not a problem for Paul, who spoke of the whole creation groaning and travailing in pain till the coming redemption of all things (Romans 8). http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201002.htm#20100214a
Indeed, Jesus Christ was CERTAINLY NOT oblivious to the pain, the suffering, and especially the death present in this world: Music and verse:
Natalie Grant - Alive (Resurrection music video) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX Acts 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
bornagain77
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
03:35 AM
3
03
35
AM
PDT
optimus well said,,, as to you first 2 points:
(1) metaphysical presuppostions absolutely undergird much of the modern synthetic theory. This is especially true with regard to methodological naturalism (of course, MN is distinct from ontological naturalism, but if, as some claim, science describes the whole of reality, then reality becomes coextensive with that which is natural). (2) In Darwin’s own arguments in favor of his theory he rely heavily on metaphysical assumptions about what God would or wouldn’t do. Effectively he uses special creation by a deity as his null hypothesis, casting his theory as the explanatory alternative. Thus the adversarial relationship between Darwin (whose ideas are foundational to the MST) and theism is baked right into The Origin. To this very day, “bad design” arguments in favor of evolution still employ theological reasoning.
Optimus, I think that Dr. Craig, in his recent debate with Dr Alex Rosenberg, in his usual direct and to the point style, clearly exposes the major fatal flaws in MN thinking
Does Epistemological Naturalism Imply Metaphysical Naturalism? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yNddAh0Txg Is Metaphysical Naturalism Viable? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS_CQnmoLQ
As to point #2, it is crucial to note that the practice of science is absolutely dependent on Theological presuppositions.
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 debate available on the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://theresurgence.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist
In fact it is no small coincidence, that modern science was born in the matrix of Christian Theism where it was presupposed that nature was/is rational, approachable, and understandable by the 'mind' of man, since we were/are held to be made in God's image:
The Origin of Science Excerpt: Modern experimental science was rendered possible, Jaki has shown, as a result of the Christian philosophical atmosphere of the Middle Ages. Although a talent for science was certainly present in the ancient world (for example in the design and construction of the Egyptian pyramids), nevertheless the philosophical and psychological climate was hostile to a self-sustaining scientific process. Thus science suffered still-births in the cultures of ancient China, India, Egypt and Babylonia. It also failed to come to fruition among the Maya, Incas and Aztecs of the Americas. Even though ancient Greece came closer to achieving a continuous scientific enterprise than any other ancient culture, science was not born there either. Science did not come to birth among the medieval Muslim heirs to Aristotle. …. The psychological climate of such ancient cultures, with their belief that the universe was infinite and time an endless repetition of historical cycles, was often either hopelessness or complacency (hardly what is needed to spur and sustain scientific progress); and in either case there was a failure to arrive at a belief in the existence of God the Creator and of creation itself as therefore rational and intelligible. Thus their inability to produce a self-sustaining scientific enterprise. If science suffered only stillbirths in ancient cultures, how did it come to its unique viable birth? The beginning of science as a fully fledged enterprise took place in relation to two important definitions of the Magisterium of the Church. The first was the definition at the Fourth Lateran Council in the year 1215, that the universe was created out of nothing at the beginning of time. The second magisterial statement was at the local level, enunciated by Bishop Stephen Tempier of Paris who, on March 7, 1277, condemned 219 Aristotelian propositions, so outlawing the deterministic and necessitarian views of creation. These statements of the teaching authority of the Church expressed an atmosphere in which faith in God had penetrated the medieval culture and given rise to philosophical consequences. The cosmos was seen as contingent in its existence and thus dependent on a divine choice which called it into being; the universe is also contingent in its nature and so God was free to create this particular form of world among an infinity of other possibilities. Thus the cosmos cannot be a necessary form of existence; and so it has to be approached by a posteriori investigation. The universe is also rational and so a coherent discourse can be made about it. Indeed the contingency and rationality of the cosmos are like two pillars supporting the Christian vision of the cosmos. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/science_origin.html
Thus since Theistic presuppositions were, and still are, absolutely necessary for the founding, and continued practice, of modern science, it is crucial to note exactly what role Theology played, an still plays, in Darwin's formulation of evolution, and in current evolutionary reasoning, so as to give Darwinism a semblance of being 'scientific':
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human begins are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html The Descent of Darwin - Pastor Joe Boot - (The Theodicy of Darwinism) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKJqk7xF4-g Finding Darwin's Real God - Michael Flannery - October 11, 2012 Excerpt: Even since the publication of Ken Miller's Finding Darwin's God, the Brown University biologist and leading spokesman for theistic evolution has claimed to have found deity in "the coherent power of Darwin's great idea" (p. 292). Miller sees no contradiction between Charles Darwin's theory and the three great Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. For him, there is "no reason for believers to draw a line in the sand between God and Darwin" (p. 267). Francis Collins seems to suggest much the same in his Language of God. Of course they weren't the first; long before Miller and Collins there was Charles Kingsley (1819-1875). But is the god of Darwin really a "coherent" power for these faiths, wholly compatible with any or all of them? Wishful thinking aside, a little investigation reveals the true theistic evolutionary equation: Darwin + god = Man. Put more simply Darwin's god was Man. To see this clearly we must go to Darwin's own writings.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/finding_darwins_1065211.html
bornagain77
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
03:35 AM
3
03
35
AM
PDT
nightlight @ 2: My view is that if anti-ID advocates are going to take every possible chance to derail the ideas of the debate down into definitional and semantic rabbit holes, including denying the obvious, there's no sense expending the effort to constantly qualify every term and phrase in an attempt to avoid "misunderstanding". If you cannot even get your debate opponent to agree that the LNC is binding, why bother trying to explain to him or her what you mean by the term "evolution" in a particular context? If they cannot glean from the context what Dr. Hunter means when he uses the word "evolution", it is not because Dr. Hunter is careless (IMHO), but rather because those readers are on a mission to misunderstand.William J Murray
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
03:31 AM
3
03
31
AM
PDT
PS: A current case of Berra's blunder.kairosfocus
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
03:23 AM
3
03
23
AM
PDT
NL: First, welcome to UD, I do not recall seeing you here before. An interesting comment. I would suggest: 1 --> There is a problem of multiple meanings of and contexts for "evolution," which has frequently been remarked on here at UD. Such meanings range from minor population variations (sometimes cyclical as with the Finches and the Moths) to a claimed theory of the origin and diversity of body plans, and with extensions that would see evolution as the driving dynamic of the cosmos from hydrogen to humans. 2 --> However, it must be understood that Darwin's theory was a macro-theory from the first as the conclusion to Origin highlights. 3 --> Similarly, he did have a clear de-Christianising "free thought" worldview and cultural agenda context -- though he did not want to rail at "religion" but to fundamentally discredit it in the name of science, as was admitted in the Oct 13 1880 letter to Aveling:
. . . though I am a strong advocate for free thought [--> NB: free-thought is an old synonym for skepticism, agnosticism or atheism] on all subjects, yet it appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity & theism produce hardly any effect on the public; & freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men’s minds, which follows from the advance of science. It has, therefore, been always my object to avoid writing on religion, & I have confined myself to science. I may, however, have been unduly biassed by the pain which it would give some members of my family [--> NB: especially his wife, Emma], if I aided in any way direct attacks on religion.
4 --> To this end, part of what he did repeatedly was to suggest that there are natural theology challenges to positions like those of Paley et al [BTW, I have never ceased to marvel at how often in dismissing the watch in the field of Ch 1 in Paley, objectors so rarely address the thought exercise of the self replicating watch in Ch 2), and in promoting a redefinition of science and its methods that is being pushed so hard in our day, that science must be naturalistic, with the only contrast presented being the despised "supernatural." (The issue of art detectable on reliable empirical signs is ever so often suppressed or overlooked, even by those with responsibility to know and do better.) 5 --> Consequently, over the past 150 years and especially in recent years, there has been a strong, increasing tendency on the part of promoters of "Evolution" to conflate minor population variations with origin of body plans, to suggest that origin of life can similarly be explained successfully on blind chance and necessity, to insist that science must operate on methodological naturalism [which begs big questions], to infer to or assume evolutionary materialism [recall the forgotten, dismissed status of Wallace, once he opted for a non materialist view], and to generally see Evolution as having changed the world. 5 --> Thus we end up at notions like Dawkins' that Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist and the like. 6 --> By contrast, design theory is not about such grand schemes. It pivots on a key issue: is it possible to scientifically detect design as credible cause per empirically reliable sign, essentially functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information? 7 --> The answer is -- on abundant evidence -- yes, but precisely because cell based life is chock full of FSCO/I, all sorts of subterfuges are reverted to to dismiss such once we come to the world of life. This takes in a great many people who look to science as the most prestigious institution in the civilisation presently. (There is a related problem of scientism, that imagines that science is the be all and end all of knowledge, that its bounds cover the limits of what exists or can be known, and that if you are not thinking or arguing in the methodologically naturalistic circle, you are irrational. This of course deeply poisons discussions, and adherents usually don't begin to understand how deeply ill-informed and hopelessly fallacious it is.) 8 --> Insofar as "evolution" means change across time, and does not necessarily exclude intelligent guidance -- cf. here, Berra's blunder and Darwin's tendency to cite artificial selection by breeders as an exemplar for the powers of natural selection acting on chance variations through differential reproductive success -- evolution and design are compatible. 9 --> Indeed one of the two leading members of the design theory school of thought, Behe, believes in universal common descent. His main conceptual presentation, the concept of irreducible complexity, points to a barrier to blind watchmaker darwinian evolution, not to a barrier to intelligently guided or orchestrated or chosen evolutionary development. 10 --> I think your conception of "complexity based arguments" is not complete. the issue is, that once we have especially functionally specified complexity, there is a very large config space of possibilities, so large that the atomic resources of our solar system or the observed cosmos on the usual timelines, cannot scratch the surface of the field of possibilities. So, on needle in haystack grounds -- at 500 bits, the solar system's search capacity is as one straw to a cubical hay bale 1,000 LY on the side, about as thick as our galaxy's main disc. 11 --> We would be only warranted in expecting such a search of a bale superposed on our galaxy to pick up to all but certainty, straw. That is, given that specificity of configuration to get well matched parts to fit and work together puts us in narrow and unrepresentative zones in the space of possibilities -- islands of function -- it becomes utterly unlikely for blind searches to land on such islands, on the gamut of our solar system or the observed cosmos. The only known, observed means of bridging that gap is intelligence; i.e. FSCO/I is an empirically reliable index of design, on billions of tests. That is why we do routinely observe something like Berra's line of descent of Corvettes since the 1950's. However, a key part of the descent lies through the minds of generations of engineers, i.e. designers. 12 --> And that extends to technological evolution in general. including, of courser the common taxonomic "tree" of descent example, the paper clip family. So, nope, complexity is not an argument against INTELLIGENT design. _________ I trust this helps. KFkairosfocus
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
03:12 AM
3
03
12
AM
PDT
KN was quite right about the conflation reflex, although he didn't identify properly the worst type of such conceptual blurring, the one which is the most harmful to the scientific ID position and which makes some sympathizers, including myself, cringe while reading such materials. The most damaging (for ID as a scientific position) is the conflation of "evolution" as: a) process in biological systems b) neo-Darwinian theory of (a) Cornelius Hunter, the author of Darwin's God blog (as well as several posters here and elsewhere) don't make any distinction between (a) and (b), and keep objecting to some generic "evolution", as if their irreducible complexity/FSCI based arguments apply to (a). Such arguments, which are applicable to (b), don't transfer to (a), otherwise one could use the same complexity based arguments to "refute" evolution of technology, science, arts etc., which are intelligently guided processes analogous to (a). After bringing this objection to Cornelius on Darwin's God blog, although he acknowledged the distinction betwen (a) and (b), and that his complexity based critique applies only to (b), he still fails to see a need to refine his terminology, as if wishing to somehow make (a) go away by his critique of (b). I think that this kind of wishful "logic" only weakens the perfectly legitimate ID argument against (b). In the above discussion, I ended up battling against both sides, which made it clear that this conflation and resulting wishful transfer of argument from (b) to (a) are pretty widespread among ID supporters. (Caution: there is a foul-mouthed neo-Darwinian dogmatist character posting there, a robot named Thorton, who merely plays back the official ND-E mantras which are triggered by the first few keywords in a post he recognizes, without ever reading or understanding the arguments being made; trying to discuss with him is a waste of time.)nightlight
March 28, 2013
March
03
Mar
28
28
2013
02:02 AM
2
02
02
AM
PDT
And, yes, we are all familiar with the objection that organisms are distinct from artificial objects, the implication being that our knowledge from the domain of man-made objects doesn’t carry over to biology. I think this is fallacious. Everyone acknowledges that matter inhabiting this universe is made up of atoms, which in turn are composed of still other particles. This is true of all matter, not just “natural” things, not just “artificial” things – everything. If such is the case, then must not the same laws apply to all matter with equal force? From whence comes the false dichotomy that between “natural” and “artificial”? If design can be discerned in one case, why not in the other?
Very well put.Mapou
March 27, 2013
March
03
Mar
27
27
2013
11:21 PM
11
11
21
PM
PDT
1 8 9 10

Leave a Reply