Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Outsider Meddling — Skeptics Need Not Apply (or, Just Have Faith)

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Someone by the name of skeech is cluttering up UD with impervious sophistry and wasting a lot of our time.

His/her latest thesis is that “according to biologists…” there is a “credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed massive increases in biological information in a short time — followed by stasis.”

So, skeech assures us that “biologists” are universally agreed upon this proposition?

How about this and this?

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a boiling, ever-changing, amorphous cloud that is impenetrable and completely immune to critical analytical scrutiny. It was designed that way, for obvious reasons.

It should be noted that the “scientific” consensus in the early 20th century was the steady-state universe theory (that is, the universe is eternal, and has no beginning and no end). Those subscribing to the consensus were wrong (including Albert Einstein), and they put up a big fight until the end, when the evidence became overwhelming.

Continental drift theory was also ridiculed.

Wegener was the first to use the phrase “continental drift” (1912, 1915)… During Wegener’s lifetime, his theory of continental drift was severely attacked by leading geologists, who viewed him as an outsider meddling in their field.

The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”

The essence of Darwinian philosophy, presented as “science,” takes about 15 minutes to learn and understand: Random variation and natural selection explain everything — never mind the details, we’ll make up stories later to explain away the anomalies, contradictions, and improbabilities.

In the meantime, just have faith, and don’t ask any annoying questions.

This is not science, it’s religious indoctrination.

Comments
Stephen B in #79 I have tried to come back only to have my comments "moderated" while others have commented after me with no moderation whatsoever. I have exposed this policy on my weblog on the "Why Banishment? thread. Since discriminatory moderation persists, I have exposed that again as well and will continue to do so until I am treated exactly as any other user of this weblog. I don't expect this to be published because it allows me to explain my feelings about being treated as a second class citizen by the management of Uncommon Descent. I have presented nothing abusive or even controversial and the referees here know it. I am quite willing to allow Uncommon Descent to treat me with contempt for as long as it chooses. I will continue to expose those tactics with printout copies on my weblog or anywhere else I am allowed to speak freely. I was a vociferous proponent of Intelligent Design when most of you folks were in diapers. The fact that most of my sources are now dead is a reflection on the diligence the Darwinians have exhibited in pretending that they never had any critics. Neo-Darwinism remains the greatest hoax in the history of science, dwarfing the Phlogiston of Chemistry and the Ether of Physics. Natural selection never had anything to do with the origin of species or of any other taxanomic category. That is no longer a matter for conjecture and certainly not for debate. I repeat - The matter is in the hands of the management of Uncommon Descent. Remember - "What happens on the internet stays on the internet." That is the way it is supposed to be. Now go right ahead and hold this message for as long as you choose for what you call "moderation." I call it censorship!JohnADavison
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PDT
StephenB [139], the question is not whether Gnostic texts (and others -- there are plenty of non-Gnostic non-canonical early texts) can be reconciled with doctrinal Christianity. The question was whether they have any historical relevance. And as I have pointed out, serious historical scholars take them seriously not as doctrine (which is not a historical question). You can call Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels a lot of things -- evangelical scholars don't like them one bit -- but it's a little silly to call them "uninformed." In short, the issue of heresy begs the historical question.David Kellogg
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
08:59 AM
8
08
59
AM
PDT
----David Kellogg: "DATCG [114], your rather long diatribe against the non-canonical writings about Jesus are rather strange. What has Dan Brown to do with any of this? Scholars who take the non-canonical writings seriously are quite plentiful, and are not limited to the Jesus Seminar folks: Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels come to mind." It really doesn’t matter how many uninformed commentators on exegetic theology “take Gnosticism seriously.” What matters is whether they are serious thinkers and whether they can reason in the abstract. In fact, Gnosticism cannot be reconciled with Christianity in any way. Gnostics believed that the Abrahamic God was, in fact, two separate and independent entities. The “Demiurge” was the God of the Israelites and the Old Testament. He was reputed to be a “bad creator”, because of his violent intrusions on mankind’s self-styled behavior. According to their perverse Biblical interpretation, Jesus Christ came to save humanity from sin and suffering, AND the “evils of the MATERIAL world.” Thus, Gnosticism militates against the Genesis account, which holds that everything God created was good. This anti-Christian belief system produced what is called “Manicheism,” the idea that a good God created a world of spirit, an evil God created a world of matter, and that the two worlds are irreconcilable. Thus, it confuses Christianity’s moderate dualism, [good spirit, good matter] with Gnosticism’s radical dualism, [good spirit, evil matter]. It is the latter world view that Augustine held before he converted to Christianity. So, the point at issue is a simple matter of fact. “Gnostic gospels” are parasites on Christianity and were established to compete against it as an alternative, heretical world view. Under the circumstances, DATCG's extended comments @114 were completely on target.StephenB
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
Joseph, Evolutionary theory predicted that there would be fish-land animal transitional species in late Devonian aged rocks. that prediction was put to the test through 5 years of hard digging and was eventually shown correct w the discovery of tiktaalik.Khan
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
07:16 AM
7
07
16
AM
PDT
Joseph @134
The ToE did not predict Tiktaalik.
Read the section on discovering Tiktaalik. Modern evolutionary theory was instrumental in predicting where to look and what type of fossil would be found. There are literally hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers that document the testing of testable predictions based on MET. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.
It doesn’t predict anything.
Continuing to repeat a clearly refuted claim does not make it any more valid. JJJayM
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
06:54 AM
6
06
54
AM
PDT
Here is a PDF showing what I mean, Joe. See how it shows a branching pattern. (HT to rossum)Alan Fox
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
06:03 AM
6
06
03
AM
PDT
The ToE did not predict Tiktaalik. It doesn’t even predict fish. It doesn’t predict anything.
The ToE posits an unbroken chain of descent through a hierarchy of organisms who were all at least viable enough to produce viable offspring. It predicts that evidence of ancestral forms such as fossils like Tiktaalik roseae will be consistent with a nested hierarchy. I am sure I do not need to remind Joe about nested hierarchies.Alan Fox
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
05:33 AM
5
05
33
AM
PDT
oops- the ToE can predict that populations will either change or remain the same.Joseph
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
05:20 AM
5
05
20
AM
PDT
Ludwig, The geocentric PoV also made correct predictions. And if we look to the Bible it predicts the universe had a beginning.Joseph
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
04:52 AM
4
04
52
AM
PDT
JayM, The ToE did not predict Tiktaalik. It doesn't even predict fish. It doesn't predict anything.Joseph
April 3, 2009
April
04
Apr
3
03
2009
04:50 AM
4
04
50
AM
PDT
Jerry John Davison can't come back because Gil Dodgen won't permit it. Isn't that right Gil?JohnADavison
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
05:47 PM
5
05
47
PM
PDT
Ludwig, For front loading, I am not sure since I have not really thought about it much. Nor have I ever seen anyone discuss it in much detail except for John Davison's work. I find the front loading concept hard to believe because there would have to be an awfully lot of data in the original genomes and then to assume that at various points over time, a lot of it was lost as a new species branched off. Present species do not seem to have any of it today. The other thing I have a hard time with front loading is where did the gene pool variation come from to fuel all the species variation that descended from it. For example, where did all the variation for birds come from. Since it had to be front loaded, why would the creation of a species come with substantial variation. The origin of variation is the mystery of evolution. Some of this may be cleared up as more and more genomes are mapped and phenotype characteristics are associated with various genomic elements. There are occasional reports of species with all sorts of variation potential within them that is not manifest and which probably originated prior to the Cambrian Explosion. This seems to be support for a lot of unnecessary variation available in a short time after multi-celled life appeared. Maybe if John Davison comes back you could ask him.jerry
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
02:46 PM
2
02
46
PM
PDT
By showing patterns that do not fit the theory.
Okay. What kind of pattern would not fit the theory? Could you provide an example?Ludwig
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
12:23 PM
12
12
23
PM
PDT
"But isn’t that a weakness for a scientific theory? How would you know if you were wrong?" By showing patterns that do not fit the theory. I am not convinced by front loading and essentially I am in "it is a mystery" camp but there is a lot of data that suggest that a lot of information existed early in life and where did it come from. Despite all the protestations by the Darwinian loyalists, information does not come out of nowhere by random processes. The punctuated equilibrium form of gradualism and traditional Darwinian gradualism do not fit the evidence either for later day evolution. At least as of today. All of which cries for an honesty in biology classes that we do not know the origin of species. As I said the only honest answer is that it is a mystery and that Darwin's ideas are out of favor by many. Micro evolution is fine and teaching that is all the students will ever have to know about medicine, genetics, food production etc.jerry
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
12:03 PM
12
12
03
PM
PDT
Jerry:
If the information for all the species was front loaded, then Tiktaalik or any other progression is predicted from it.
I think you're right that frontloading is consistent with the progression of fossils containing Tiktaalik, as well as consistent with "any other progression." But isn't that a weakness for a scientific theory? How would you know if you were wrong?Ludwig
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
11:47 AM
11
11
47
AM
PDT
madsen, ID says that the origin of species is a mystery but that the information needed for many new species is best explained by an intelligent input. One form of ID is that the variety of species potential was front loaded at the creation of life. Two major proponents here are Dave Scot and John Davison. A lot of John Davison's ideas are linked on this site. They are very interesting and informative. If the information for all the species was front loaded, then Tiktaalik or any other progression is predicted from it. Not the specific species but the slow progression which Tiktaalik is consistent with. Another form of front loading is that on one or more occasions information was loaded into a gene pool and from these points, the unfolding of life proceeded naturally using normal micro evolution techniques. All of which fit the fossil record and current species better than Darwin's ideas do. The fossil record is what set off the panic for another form of naturalistic evolution besides Darwin's ideas of a gradual change to the current set of alleles or other genetic elements and whola, you have Gould and Eldredge and punctuated equilibrium and the gradualism of the junk DNA.jerry
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
11:14 AM
11
11
14
AM
PDT
jerry,
I will predict from some ID based thinking that we will find new species in the rocks that are variations of both previous and later species. So does Tiktaalik support ID.
From what I've gathered by reading UD, the central claim of ID is simply that naturalistic processes are insufficient to account for certain things we observe in nature (flagella, etc). How does your prediction concerning future fossil discoveries related to Tiktaalik follow from ID theory?madsen
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
I believe the Tiktaalik had no predecessors either before or after for a few million years. No one is denying that life has unfolded in a progression or that evolution did not happen. What is under debate is the mechanism for this progression and the origin of the information within the genomes that had to fuel these species. Remember Darwin's book was titled "On the Origin of Species" and in it Darwin laid out what he thought led to new species. Tiktaalik does not support Darwin's thesis nor does it falsify it. It is just an unusual species in the long line of new species. I will predict from some ID based thinking that we will find new species in the rocks that are variations of both previous and later species. So does Tiktaalik support ID.jerry
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
Joseph:
The MET doesn’t explain anything and it doesn’t have any predictive power
I'm curious what you'd say about how Tiktaalik was found. Neil Schubin says that the team used modern evolutionary theory to predict what age of rock to dig in for it. And the prediction panned out. Isn't that an instance of "predictive power"?Ludwig
April 2, 2009
April
04
Apr
2
02
2009
08:33 AM
8
08
33
AM
PDT
DATCG [114], your rather long diatribe against the non-canonical writings about Jesus are rather strange. What has Dan Brown to do with any of this? Scholars who take the non-canonical writings seriously are quite plentiful, and are not limited to the Jesus Seminar folks: Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels come to mind.David Kellogg
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
Oramus says,
However, since a subset lies within the whole (essentially tethered to it via nature), then the subset must necessarily be able to know the whole.
Cosmological ID arguments hinge on the improbability of the universe being as we have observed it. There is no way to associate a probability distribution with the universe without stepping outside the universe and speculating about a universe-generating mechanism. But that is an absurdity, inasmuch as it says that the universe is not the universe.Sal Gal
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
03:18 PM
3
03
18
PM
PDT
Joseph @120
If ID is going to supplant modern evolutionary theory, it is going to have to explain everything that MET currently explains, plus demonstrate greater predictive power.
The MET doesn’t explain anything and it doesn’t have any predictive power
I posted a longer response to this that disappeared without any explanation. Rather than spend that time again, I refute you thus: Tiktaalik roseae JJJayM
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
vjtorley (110), I have started several replies, and discarded them. In short, you don't understand falsifiability as a response to the problem of induction. You don't make your way into the fold of scientists by stating propositions regarding the distant future. There's quite a bit else I might write, but I'm not going to. A blog is not a good forum for novel systematizing. If you want to discuss Gonzalez's Privileged Planet, you may get someone to bite, but not me. Any cosmologist who takes the parameters that physicists have tuned in their own models, imputes physical reality to the "constants," and then "reasons" about a parameter-tuning entity outside space and time is a joke in my book of epistemology.Sal Gal
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
JayM:
If ID is going to supplant modern evolutionary theory, it is going to have to explain everything that MET currently explains, plus demonstrate greater predictive power.
The MET doesn't explain anything and it doesn't have any predictive power: 1- There is no way to predict what mutation will pop up at any point in time and 2- There is no way to predict what will be selected for at any point in time. As for explanations heck we don't even understand what makes a human a human besides the fcat that a human is born from the succesful mating of human parents. We don't even know whether or not eyes/ vision systems could evolve because we don't know what is responsible for their development.Joseph
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PDT
SG et al: At 90, I excerpted from the UD glossary and commented on its use of the description of intelligence as used by Wiki. I then also commented on the issue of concepts, descriptions and definitions, with life as a comparative case to intelligence, where we begin from typical examples and lay out a cluter of typical characteristics, accepting further instances on a fasmily resemblance basis. the description on yardstick words -- think of this as Zahedian "fuzzy" logic with possibility of partial, parameterised set memberships at work towards reasonable, crisp and effective decisions -- is:
Intelligence – Wikipedia aptly and succinctly defines: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.”
this is a good enough working paradigm, on many good reasons. On that, we mazy then proceed to the points that [a] ID is the science that studies signs of intelligence and [b] it has identified a working list of credible candidates. In that context, it has further pointed out that we observe that three major causal factors tend to operate in empirical contexts: mechanical necessity, undirected contingency [chance], and directed contingency [design]. On looking at aspects of phenomena, we may discern form observable characteristics, that law, chance or design are the best empirically based explanations. Now, the above is in fact not controversial, generally. It is a commonplace in applied science, statistics, forensics, management, and a great many other serious contexts. Even in "pure" science [that done without a direct eye to potentially economically profitable applications], it is used when we wonder if the data presented are law, chance or cooking. The REAL reason there is a controversy is that there is a context in which design inferences threaten an institutionally dominant worldview: evolutionary materialism. This, as I have already cited, is not only a point made in an infamous remark by Mr Lewontin, but is now being enforced by NAS, NCSE, NSTA, and even judges and parliaments. Here is Mr Lewontin again:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [1997, NY Rev of Books]
In that context, there indeed is an institutional dogmatism that has led to unjustified career busting and other seriously unjust behaviours. Indeed, some of what has been going on comes across as whistleblower retaliation. (There are not only documentary films on this but books, going back well over a decade now -- try the list in Johnson's Reason in the Balance for an example on that.) Of course, it is hard to accept that such has been going on in the name of "science": indoctrination in a controversial worldview that has subverted science, and dogmatic dismissal and attacks against those who beg to differ. Not to mention, blaming the victim and retaliating against the whistleblower. But, in another decade or so, that is where the outcome will be plain beyond reasonable dispute. And a lot of "good" folks are going to have a lot of explaining to do, on why they indulged in enabling behaviour when the issue was at its peak. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
04:06 AM
4
04
06
AM
PDT
SG, where chiropractic fails is not combining spinal alignment with massage therapy, accu-pressure and yoga. The fundamental concept is correct since energy centers are aligned along the spine.Oramus
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
03:44 AM
3
03
44
AM
PDT
... I believe that the Creator of the universe is unknowable by the logic and science of entities within the universe. Thus I gladly tell you that don’t know is a possibility for each decision in the explanatory filter.
Sal Gal, Re your comment above, it would seem that we can never understand the whole, since as a subset we cannot be equal to or greater than it. However, since a subset lies within the whole (essentially tethered to it via nature), then the subset must necessarily be able to know the whole. With this in mind, IMO science will one day be able to confirm empirically that God exists, but never be able to understand why or how God exists?Oramus
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
03:38 AM
3
03
38
AM
PDT
Jailed: No Innate Intelligence Allowed "Innate Intelligence is a chiropractic term to describe the organizing properties of living things. [...] This vitalistic concept states that all life contains Innate (inborn) Intelligence and that this force is responsible for the organization, maintenance and healing of the body." "It was presented by early chiropractic leaders as a part of chiropractic philosophy, that life is a triune of intelligence, force, and matter. [...] Because of this early metaphysical construct, the terminology of Innate Intelligence is considered potentially detrimental to the profession's development and reputation as it seeks acceptance in the greater scientific community." "Universal Intelligence is in all matter and continually gives to it all the properties and actions. The expression of this intelligence through matter is the Chiropractic meaning of life; therefore life is necessarily the union of intelligence and matter. Force unites intelligence and matter. Universal Intelligence gives force to both inorganic and organic matter. That force which Universal gives to organic matter as a higher order of its manifestations, is called Innate Intelligence." "Chiropractic history began in 1895... Early chiropractic bore similarities to osteopathy and was criticized as practicing medicine without a license. Opposition from the medical profession led to many chiropractors, including [founder D.D. Palmer], being jailed." "On November 2, 1963, the AMA Board of Reagents created the "Committee on Quackery" with the goals of first containing, and then eliminating chiropractic. H. Doyle Taylor, the Director of the AMA Department of Investigation and Secretary of the Committee on Quackery, outlined the steps needed: 1. to ensure that Medicare should not cover chiropractic 2. to ensure that the U.S. Office of Education should not recognize or list a chiropractic accrediting agency 3. to encourage continued separation of the two national associations 4. to encourage state medical societies to take the initiative in their state legislatures in regard to legislation that might affect the practice of chiropractic. The AMA flooded the public media and the scientific literature with information designed to defame chiropractic." The Wikipedia article on Wilk v. American Medical Association, the antitrust case that brought an end to the Committee on Quackery, is very interesting. The founder of chiropractic claimed that 95% of all disease was caused by spinal misalignment -- interfering, if I understand correctly, with the flow of innate intelligence to the organs. It seems now that there is not much of a scientific case for effectiveness of chiropractic in anything but treatment of low back pain.Sal Gal
April 1, 2009
April
04
Apr
1
01
2009
02:11 AM
2
02
11
AM
PDT
Sal Gal, re: Kierkagaard that you quote about working out "decisions with fear and trembling" As a theologian, he undoubetly is referencing Philippians 2:12.
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Which is a New Testament reference leading back to the Old Testament knowledge of reverence to the Creator. This is indeed a "decision" to work out with "fear and trembling." Not so much the "hi-story" of dinosaurs and Darwinist interpretations. Operational genetics is not bound by evolutionary story telling as Dr. John Sanford at Cornell knows so well. Fear and Trembling DATCG
March 31, 2009
March
03
Mar
31
31
2009
07:21 PM
7
07
21
PM
PDT
Sal Gal, "My favorite of all sayings attributed to Jesus:" "Sayings" falsely attributed by fictional gnostic writings of unidentified authors. This is misleading to UD readers that may not know the difference between accepted New Testament canons as authorized by all major denominations and discredited writings of unknown authors such as the gnostic writings you quoted. The false writings you quote are not attributed to Christ. People who do attribute such writings to Christ usually are conspiracy minded academics and charlatans like Dan Brown or the Jesus Seminar. Usually on the bleeding edge of conspiracy thinking, atheist with grudges, or a thoroughly misinformed person about history, Christ and biblical teachings.
"Jesus sad, “Let the seeker, seek until he finds. That which he finds, shall cause him grief. That he grieves, shall puzzle him, and he who is puzzled shall rule over all.”
"Jesus said" no such thing. Your quoting false sources does not make it so. These sayings have been fully discredited by leading biblical authorities, incluing current Bible publications from King James to Roman Catholic to NIV, etc. You are quoting from fictional accounts discredited by agnostics, atheist and theologians together in agreement that the gnostic writings have nothing to do with Christ's actual teachings. That agree they are not authentic teachings written by, or associated with Christ or his disciples. These "sayings" or accounts of Christ are from the Nag Hamadi findings; specifically your quote, is from the false gospel of Thomas which is a gnostic fantasy of confusion, heretical statemets and mystic paganism intertwined with false accounts and false teachings that are falsely attributed to Christ. While some gnostic writings may quote or paraphrase some teachings, the overall documents are not accurate in structure, grammar, or any other fundamental literature comparisons. They are not canonical teachings and only interesting from a historical viewpoint of gnosticism. The fictional writing called the Gospel of Thomas from which you quote is a gnostic document written much later by unknown sources that do not match teachings of Christ, his disciples, the Torah, Prophets and Psalms upon which Christ taught. If you carefully study the Old/New Testament, Christ did not teach gnostic ramblings, but directly from the Old Testament writings. Basic students know gnostic writings are fictional, nor related to Christ teachings. Most people that push the Gnotic "gospels" as authenic are discredited shows of mockery like the Jesus Seminars and the fictional accounts in Da Vinci Code, by charlatan author Dan Brown who stated his writings were based upon facts, which have since been fully discredited. His claims are funny if not so serious. An analogy of how he writes... His next great fictional account will be how Mendel really stole information from Darwin for his famous genetic experiments and that if not for Darwin teaching Mendel fundamental mathematics and physics, the father of genetics would never have succeeded. That it was Mendel who suffered with math problems and not Darwin. That about sums up the Gnostic hollywood accounts and Dan Brown "facts" about Christ "sayings." Likewise we know Darwin admitted his weakness in math and that Mendel fully outshined him in math, physics and scientific experimentation and observations. He blew away Darwin in all aspects. Darwin made observations of the present to then write fictional accounts of the past. The only good observation he made was if gradual steps were not found, his hypothesis would be dead. It is dead. Only stubborn atheist and Darwinist continue to hang on for their faith and "blessed assurance" of accidental being.
Another translation: Jesus said, “Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All.” Troubling difference. And both translators neglect to mention that the saying continues with something barely legible — perhaps: [And after they have reigned they will rest.]
Again, the really "troubling" issue is you attributing gnostic writings to Christ. He did not say what you quoted. Those writings have been discredited as authenic teachings by Christ. Any informed student, reader, knows the gnostic gospels are ancient gnostic fiction.
At any rate, I have problems with anyone who would lead you to blessed assurance, rather than provoke you to seek until you find for yourself that which troubles and astonishes you.
You "have problems" with strawman arguments and discredited writings. Have you read the Old/New Testaments? Or just the gnostic writings? Do you rely on Dan Brown or others like him for your seeking of truth about Christ? If you do, it is no wonder you have problems. I can understand. But they are not real problems because again, they do not represent Christ teachings. Your invented problems are you quarreling over non-existent teachings. You are creating a problem that does not exist. You should know that far from teaching your false arguments "attributed" to Christ, that the authors of the Bible taught followers to seek all truth in logic, reason and in understanding the creation around us. The Bible does not shy away from people seeking truth, testing, and discovering the wonders around us. You misrepresent the teachings of biblical principles. Funny how all the great Christian scientist never struggled with your issues on false accounts of gnostic fiction. Regardless of your background and level of knowledge, these few statements you make are uninformed of biblical teachings or, you are intentionally using deceptive points to confuse and mislead others here to win a strawman argument. I'll assume for now, you are uninformed of the teachings of Christ. And are uninformed that gnostisim is discredited by Judeo-Christian leaders? For readers who may not know better, Christ never once told people to... "stop thinking" or "don't reason" or "science is not allowed" in his teachings. He encouraged each individual to make informed decisions on their own. He encouraged careful thought, reason, logic. As did his disciples. In fact Proverbs is built upon careful observations about reality of nature, society and living with good relations in family. Christ quoted from the Old Testament teachings continuously in teaching people how to live life in a chaotic, mixed up world. His teachings brought to light the truths found in the history of Old Testament, ancient lessons from generations past learned through hard experiences. Certainly, you are not ignorant of Nag Hamadi documents being falsified as New Testiment doctrine? Are you? Or do you believe they are authored by the disciples? Do you believe Brown and The Jesus Seminars as authority figures with good grips on historic reality? Do you believe in UFOs? The reason I ask, is Dan Brown, The Jesus Seminars and UFOs have about the same credible sources of authenticity and academic integrity based in reality. Which is little to none. All the best.DATCG
March 31, 2009
March
03
Mar
31
31
2009
06:35 PM
6
06
35
PM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8 9 11

Leave a Reply