Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Pass me a Corona! II

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The comments to the original Pass me a Corona! post are closed. Additional comments on that topic should be posted below. I will start this post with PaV’s last comments to the prior post [i.e., everything that follows is PaV, not Barry].

Today the paywall for a Spectator USA article has been lifted. The article is by a retired pathologist who worked as a pathologist for the NHS in the UK, Dr. John Lee. I mentioned his article yesterday.

Every point he makes parallels arguments I’ve made here, though not so much the time period of death–though this, too, parallels a concern over “excess deaths.”

Here are some relevant comments:

The distinction between dying ‘with’ COVID-19 and dying ‘due to’ COVID-19 is not just splitting hairs. Consider some examples: an 87-year-old woman with dementia in a nursing home; a 79-year-old man with metastatic bladder cancer; a 29-year-old man with leukemia treated with chemotherapy; a 46-year-old woman with motor neurone disease for two years. All develop chest infections and die. All test positive for COVID-19. Yet all were vulnerable to death by chest infection from any infective cause (including the flu). COVID-19 might have been the final straw, but it has not caused their deaths.

Here’s a comment that might well be directed at the deaths we see coming out of Italy and Spain. Are these deaths due to a variety of causes but simply attributed, blindly, to the SARS-CoV-2 virus?

Next, what about the deaths? Many UK health spokespersons have been careful to repeatedly say that the numbers quoted in the UK indicate death with the virus, not death due to the virus — this matters. When giving evidence in parliament a few days ago, Prof. Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London said that he now expects fewer than 20,000 COVID-19 deaths in the UK but, importantly, two-thirds of these people would have died anyway. In other words, he suggests that the crude figure for ‘COVID deaths’ is three times higher than the number who have actually been killed by COVID-19. (Even the two-thirds figure is an estimate — it would not surprise me if the real proportion is higher.)

If we take Ferguson literally, does this mean that the actual number of deaths worldwide due to SARS-CoV-2 is not 35,000, but around 12,000? Will we ever know? The people responsible for finding this out are the same people who might have been gigantically wrong about their numbers. What would be their motivation to prove how incompetent they were?

It should be noted that there is no international standard method for attributing or recording causes of death. Also, normally, most respiratory deaths never have a specific infective cause recorded, whereas at the moment we can expect all positive COVID-19 results associated with a death to be recorded. Again, this is not splitting hairs. Imagine a population where more and more of us have already had COVID-19, and where every ill and dying patient is tested for the virus. The deaths apparently due to COVID-19, the COVID trajectory, will approach the overall death rate. It would appear that all deaths were caused by COVID-19 — would this be true? No. The severity of the epidemic would be indicated by how many extra deaths (above normal) there were overall.

Let me point out that this very problem is what has been going on now for over thirty years in the case of HIV. This is exactly how HIV/AIDS is defined. And Dr. John Lee says this is wrong. He’s a pathologist. So, Dr. Fauci, in charge of HIV/AIDS for over thirty years has been employing a definition for HIV/AIDS that is wrong, not true. Is it any wonder, then, that we are in this quandry?

Today, Fauci is quoted as saying that the number of deaths he expects from CoVid-19 is between 100,000 and 200,000. No way that is going to happen. Are the blind leading the blind?

Here’s a fresh perspective on numbers:

Let me finish with a couple of examples. Colleagues in Germany feel sure that their numbers are nearer the truth than most, because they had plenty of testing capacity ready when the pandemic struck. Currently the death rate is 0.8 percent in Germany. If we assume that about one-third of the recorded deaths are due to COVID-19 and that they have managed to test a third of all cases in the country who actually have the disease (a generous assumption), then the death rate for COVID-19 would be 0.08 percent. That might go up slightly, as a result of death lag. If we assume at present that this effect might be 25 percent (which seems generous), that would give an overall, and probably upper limit, of death rate of 0.1 percent, which is similar to seasonal flu.</blockquote. Let’s note that 0.08% is less than the mortality of seasonal flu. That’s how this entire thread started. Is the Deep State at work again?

This thread began on March 18th. Total number dead on that date: 150. Twelve days later–almost two weeks, the number is 2613. So, 2,470 people died in an almost two week period.

And how many have died of seasonal flu since Feb 28th? 4,000–as of March 19th.

We’re being had.

Comments
Kairosfocus: fundamentally, I believe in God because I have met him in life saving, life transforming power. Without those encounters, I would have been dead for 50 years now. That’s a personal reason, and it is operationally decisive, as it is with literally millions of others across the centuries and today. Thank you for being so honest. I do not think you are delusional. I think you have had a personal, transformative experience which I have not have. I cannot say I would have responded in the same way you have but I know I lack that experience. And, again, if I have demeaned you in the past for your beliefs then I apologise. I'm sure I will continue to disagree with you regarding certain issues, as I have done for quite a while now, but I will try very hard not to question your reasons for your faith.JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:48 PM
1
01
48
PM
PDT
As of 8:00 a.m. on Friday, a total of 1,198 people were being treated for coronavirus Covid-19 in intensive care units at hospitals across the Netherlands, according to figures released by foundation NICE. 74 Dutch hospitals have at least one coronavirus patient in their ICU. A total of 1,629 Covid-19 patients have been treated in ICUs since the outbreak started in the Netherlands at the end of February. 214 of them died. Others recovered and were discharged from the intensive care. Hospitals across the Netherlands are currently working to increase the number of ICU beds to 2,400, up from 1,150 under normal circumstances. 2,400 beds in intensive care is really the maximum that can be done, according to both Diederik Gommers of intensive care association NVIC and Gerton Heyne of nurses' association V&VN.rhampton7
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
ET: The overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence for Intelligent Design does NOT point to any God. But Intelligent Design does make it so that you can be an intellectually fulfilled theist in the 21st century and beyond. Are you trying to answer the "Why I believe/do not believe" question? You don't seem to be doing it very well. I'm interested in your personal opinion, is there a God or not? And why do you think so.JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
Indian authorities fear that many thousands of people may have been exposed to the virus as a result of the congregation of the Tablighi Jamaat group at a mosque in the Nizamuddin neighborhood of New Delhi last month. In India, at least 647 attendees have shown symptoms of COVID-19, the disease caused by the novel coronavirus, while six people have already died. (India has officially recorded 2,567 cases and 72 deaths.)rhampton7
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:38 PM
1
01
38
PM
PDT
JBS, one of the world’s largest meatpackers, continues to struggle with the COVID-19 pandemic. Earlier this week, news broke of its plant in Souderton, Pennsylvania, limiting production due to senior staff members having flu-like symptoms. Now there are positive cases tied to the JBS packing plant in Grand Island, Nebraska. NTV News reports that the Grand Island mayor confirmed 10 JBS employees have tested positive for COVID-19. “If the plant were to idle or limit production this could send shockwaves through an already declining cattle market,” Patton said. “The cattle market is in a bearish territory with a more than 20% decline in recent weeks.”rhampton7
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
The Silent Witness – Forensic Analysis (of the Shroud of Turin)
I have seen the Shroud of Turin. I spent the better part of a year researching it before going to Turin. They allowed us (my wife and another couple) to get about 15 feet from it.jerry
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
Ed George states this in regards to the suffering that Christ endured on the Cross:
I suspect about the same amount as the millions of others who have suffered and died.
So again, might I suggest that Ed George does not even begin to have a clue as to the magnitude of suffering that Christ actually endured on the cross when he took on the sins of all humanity and was forsaken by God?
"We do not know of the spiritual suffering He endured on the cross. Of course His spiritual suffering must have been the greatest of all His suffering. But that is beyond our comprehension. We can never know the real nature of that spiritual agony." - Paul Kanamori - 1920 https://books.google.com/books?id=2SI3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA136
Moreover, the suffering that we can somewhat understand of the Cross, i.e. the physical suffering of Jesus Christ on the Cross, was certainly no picnic in and of itself:
CSI Jerusalem: A Physician Looks at the Crucifixion - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H25zDG4wvz4 The Silent Witness - Forensic Analysis (of the Shroud of Turin) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5QEsaNiMVc
Verse:
2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Also of related interest, there is no account of humans bearing their earthly scars in heaven, but Jesus's scars were present in his resurrected body.
“See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. (Luke 24:39–40) The apostle John reports that Jesus “showed them his hands and his side” (John 20:20) and includes the account of doubting Thomas, who “was not with them when Jesus came” (John 20:24). Thomas insisted he must see Jesus’s scars for himself, to confirm it was in fact him. In divine patience, Jesus waited eight days to answer Thomas’s prayer, and when he finally visited, he offered him the scars. “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe” (John 20:27). https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/his-scars-will-never-fade
bornagain77
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:13 PM
1
01
13
PM
PDT
JVL, fundamentally, I believe in God because I have met him in life saving, life transforming power. Without those encounters, I would have been dead for 50 years now. That's a personal reason, and it is operationally decisive, as it is with literally millions of others across the centuries and today. Nor, are we delusional . . . that would be devastating to the general reliability of the human mind. Intellectually, the prophesied and witnessed resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth leading to unleashing the sort of power just described is again decisive. Going further, while say compelling evidence of design in the world of life is not, strictly, theistic, when it is combined with the fine tuning design of a cosmos set to a deeply isolated operating point for C-chem, aqueous medium, cell based life, that points to a powerful cumulative case. Then, I ponder the instrument I use, my mind with rational responsible freedom governed by inescapable first duties of reason. Without such freedom, again, my mind self-undermines. With it, the IS-OUGHT gap I posted on earlier must be faced, it is only bridgeable in the root of reality. Moral government is built into the fabric of creation from the roots up. That requires that the root of reality and wellspring of worlds is inherently good and utterly wise. Where, already such a root is necessary being and capable of building worlds including our own. So, there is excellent reason to believe in God. KF PS: In how many actually observed cases have language, complex alphanumeric codes, algorithms and associated execution machinery come about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity?kairosfocus
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PDT
JVL to ET
I don’t understand. Why cannot you not address the questions in a fair and collegial fashion?
Winner of the "Rhetorical Question or the Century" award. :)Ed George
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:40 PM
12
12
40
PM
PDT
BA77
Might I suggest that Ed George does not even begin to have a clue as to the magnitude of suffering that Christ actually endured on the cross when he took on the sins of all humanity and was forsaken by God?
I suspect about the same amount as the millions of others who have suffered and died. Jesus, however, had the luxury of being omniscient and, therefore, knew that he would be resurrected and taken up to heaven to be God.Ed George
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
F/N: The "kill" in the KJV rendering means what we today denote as murder, willful shedding of innocent blood. Elizabethans spoke of "slay" much as we use "kill" today. There are cases where homicide is justifiable or excusable [essentially, as lesser of realistic evils present in an existential situation], and that's so before we come to the highly relevant moral status difference between fellow creatures and the author of life, eternal and temporal. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PDT
RE 318- The overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence for Intelligent Design does NOT point to any God. But Intelligent Design does make it so that you can be an intellectually fulfilled theist in the 21st century and beyond.ET
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:27 PM
12
12
27
PM
PDT
I'm not potificating here...
5 minutes later
His comments are exactly the problem with experts ...
I don't know man, seems pretty pontificat-ish to me. Seriously, I can't believe I have to say this, if you really want to learn about the threat of the virus then going out of your way to find little threads of evidence that support your existing position is not the way to go. It leaves you open to making stupid mistakes like no understanding the difference between mitigation and suppression in the Imperial report, so continuing to not understand its major finding (that mitigation efforts alone won't halt the virus very much, and stricter suppression measures will be required to limit deaths to a few tens of thousands in the UK). Lots of people are being given hydroxychloroquine in trials or as "compassionate" dispensations. But the clamour over its benefit is really based on a couple of not-well-designed trials. We should probably have some evidence that the drug works before we re-direct tonne of people's automimmune disease medicince to those with covid-19.orthomyxo
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT
TF, I don't know, you'll have to speak with a materialist. Are you Origenes, btw?daveS
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PDT
Vividbleau: What a refreshing post, thanks.!! I have other things going on at the moment but will respond when I can.. Thanks again for the spirit in which you posed your questions I'm glad you think so. And thanks for taking me seriously. I really mean it. I have just realised, with regard to BA77, how I have probably behaved poorly in the past and I really want to make things better. Anyway, I'll be away for a bit. But I'll be back later to see how things get on.JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:08 PM
12
12
08
PM
PDT
Truthfreedom: No answer then. Just dodging. I just don't like your tone. If I thought you really wanted a dialogue I would answer. But it seems to me you just want to score points.JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:05 PM
12
12
05
PM
PDT
JVL re 318 What a refreshing post, thanks.!! I have other things going on at the moment but will respond when I can.. Thanks again for the spirit in which you posed your questions My best Vividvividbleau
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:04 PM
12
12
04
PM
PDT
Bornagain77: I promise you that I will always try and keep your declaration in mind when I read your posts and choose to respond to them in the future. We will continue to disagree about most things but i will try really hard not to demean you and your reasons for believing. And I apologise now if I have treated you poorly in the past. I should have tried harder to get to know you first. I have to uphold my own morality at least don't I? (that being that we are all worthy and valuable)JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:03 PM
12
12
03
PM
PDT
The people who commit crimes and call themselves a Christian are lying about the latter. :razz:ET
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
12:03 PM
12
12
03
PM
PDT
Dr. Fauci was on Fox & Friends this morning. [No more than a hint, Dr. Fauci? How about the study from France? How about the doctors reporting back in New York? How about other doctors with similar experiences? Does this all mean nothing to him?]
Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, was asked Friday morning on Fox & Friends to respond to Oz, who earlier in the program left a question for Fauci about a small Chinese study he said showed the use of hydroxychloroquine led to "statistically significant improvement" in cough, fever, and pneumonia among patients with a mild case of COVID-19. "That was not a very robust study," Fauci cautioned. "It is still possible that there is a beneficial effect," he added. "But the study that was just quoted on a scale of strength of evidence — that's not overwhelmingly strong. It's an indication — a hint of it."
His comments are exactly the problem with experts: he's not concerned with what his very eyes can see, but only if this reality is confirmed by a rigourous study. Who has such a luxury? How many people will die if hydroxychloroquine isn't given them? And why would they have died? Because a year-long study of some sort has not yet been carried out yet. So, when the mortality of the virus has ended, then, with study in hand, we could feel free to prescribe hydroxychloroquine. By analogy, after the economy of the United States and the entire world has been completely ruined, we can begin to work again because "there are no more new cases and no more new deaths."PaV
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:59 AM
11
11
59
AM
PDT
@323 JVL
Why do you keep bringing them up? And why are you so upset when I don’t answer your questions? Could it be that I just don’t like your tone and your approach rather than that I condone such behaviour? I’m not censoring you, you seem to be poor at considering what has been said. I’m sorry if I find your constant interjections not worth responding to. Perhaps if you made them more sensible and respectful? Just a suggestion.
No answer then. Just dodging.Truthfreedom
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PDT
DaveS at 320 hesitates on calling necrophilia wrong? You just can't make this stuff up,bornagain77
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PDT
Bornagain77: At a very low point in my life, God was unquestionably ‘there for me’ when I finally turned to Him for help. Thank you. I won't ask for details. But thank you for that brief but clear explanation. I can understand that.JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:57 AM
11
11
57
AM
PDT
@320 DaveS
Just tell us what you mean by “morally wrong”, and everything will be cool.
'Punishable' under 'materialist laws'.Truthfreedom
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:56 AM
11
11
56
AM
PDT
Truthfreedom: I’ll keep bringing them up as long as I want to. Who are you to censor me? Please tell me, are incest and necrophilia wrong or not? And based on what exactly? Why do you keep bringing them up? And why are you so upset when I don't answer your questions? Could it be that I just don't like your tone and your approach rather than that I condone such behaviour? I'm not censoring you, you seem to be poor at considering what has been said. I'm sorry if I find your constant interjections not worth responding to. Perhaps if you made them more sensible and respectful? Just a suggestion.JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:56 AM
11
11
56
AM
PDT
JVL, easy. At a very low point in my life, God was unquestionably 'there for me' when I finally turned to Him for help.bornagain77
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:55 AM
11
11
55
AM
PDT
Truthfreedom: I do not care about your ‘wonderings’. It is pretty clear that you have no answer to my question. You know you can’t offer any argument and you are dodging it because it’s uncomfortable. Gosh no, it's not uncomfortable at all. I have a very clear view about that issue. But I don't keep bringing it up, flogging a dead horse as it were. It just makes me wonder why you're so interested . . .JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:52 AM
11
11
52
AM
PDT
TF,
It’s necrophilia ‘wrong’ or not? It’s a very straightforward question.
Just tell us what you mean by "morally wrong", and everything will be cool.daveS
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:51 AM
11
11
51
AM
PDT
@JVL
Again, you seem to favour certain topics. If you have a point to make you could make it without bringing up the same practices over and over again.
I'll keep bringing them up as long as I want to. Who are you to censor me? Please tell me, are incest and necrophilia wrong or not? And based on what exactly?Truthfreedom
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:50 AM
11
11
50
AM
PDT
All and sundry: I have an idea, some of you will hate it and not want to participate. Some of you will grudgingly agree to play along just out of curiosity. And some of you will desperately want to hear what others will say. Given all of that I propose . . . We all, honestly and clearly, state why we do or do not believe in God. I was trying to find a way to phrase that more vaguely and leaving more wiggle room but I think the bold and straightforward question really is best. And I'm looking for personal statements and the reasons behind them. For the person that says: it just makes sense could we hear the reasons it makes sense. For the person who says: I just don't buy it could you specify the reasons you don't buy it. Why am I proposing this? I think the discussion I've been having about morality does, in some part, come down to whether or not you believe in a deity which created the universe. And in part I agree, having that belief changes everything. So, I'd like to know why you all do, or do not, believe in God. I have no intention of arguing with you about your reasons, I'd just like to know what they are. It would help me to understand the people I am talking to. It would help me to avoid wasting time in the future. It would help me be more sympathetic. Let me start: I have personally not seen any incontrovertible evidence of God. I have seen many things which I cannot answer. I have experienced many things which made me doubt a strictly materialistic view. But I have not been confronted with something that is strong enough to convince me of a greater being which is more or less involved with the universe. It may be that you and I have different levels of evidence but I am just speaking for myself. So . . . what do you all say? It'll be interesting just to see who responds . . . and how.JVL
April 3, 2020
April
04
Apr
3
03
2020
11:50 AM
11
11
50
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 15

Leave a Reply