Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Please Take the Time to Understand Our Arguments Before You Attack Them

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The comments our Darwinist friends put up on this site never cease to amaze.  Consider, as a for instance, Kantian Naturalist’s comment that appears as comment 9 to kairosfocus’ Infographic: The science of ID post.  The post sets forth a simple summary of the case for ID, and KN responds: 

What I like about this infographic is that it makes really clear where the problem with intelligent design lies.

Here’s the argument:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs. (2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects. (3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs.

But this is invalid, because the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

KN has been posting on this site for years.  He is obviously an intelligent man.  He is obviously a man of good will.  I will assume, therefore, that he is attacking ID as he believes it to be and not a straw man caricature of his own making.  And that is what is so amazing.  How can an intelligent person of good will follow this site for several years and still not understand the basics of ID?  It beggars belief. 

Maybe it will help if I explain ID using the same formal structure KN has used. 

KN:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs.

ID as it really is:

(1)  For all As whose provenance is actually known, the cause of A was B. 

Here “A” could be complex specified information or irreducible complexity.

B, of course, stands for “the act of an intelligent agent.”

In step 1 KN is actually not far off the mark.  I have reworded it slightly, because ID does not posit there is no possible explanation for A other than B.  ID posits that in our universal experience of A where its provenance has been actually observed, it has always arisen from B.  Now, there may be some other cause of A (Neo-Darwinian evolution – NDE – for instance), but the conclusion that NDE causes A arises from an inference not an observation.  “NDE caused A” is not just any old inference.  We would argue that it is an inference skewed by an a priori commitment to metaphysical materialism and not necessarily an unbiased evaluation of the data.  

KN:

(2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects.

ID as it really is:

(2)  We observe A to exist within living systems. 

In (2) KN starts to go off the rails in a serious way.  Here we have the tired old “ID is nothing by an argument from analogy” argument.  KN is saying that the complex specified information in a cell is “similar in relevant respects” to the complex specified information found, for example, in a language or a code.  He is saying that the irreducible complexity of any number of biological systems is “similar in relevant respects” to the irreducible complexity of machines. 

No sir.  That is not what ID posits at all, not even close.  ID posits that the complex specified information in a cell is identical to the complex specified information of a computer code.  The DNA code is not “like” a computer code.  The DNA code and a computer code are two manifestations of the same thing.  The irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum is identical to (not similar to) the irreducible complexity of an outboard motor.  

ID proponents obviously have the burden of demonstrating their claims.  For example, they have the burden of demonstrating that the DNA code and a computer code are identical in relevant respects.  And if you disagree with their conclusions that is fair enough.  Tell us why.  But it is not fair to attempt to refute ID by attacking a claim ID proponents do not make.

KN:

(3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs. 

ID as it really is:

(3)  Therefore, abductive reasoning leads to the conclusion that B is the best explanation of A. 

The Wikipedia article on abductive reasoning is quite good.  [I have changed the symbols to correspond with our discussion]: 

to abduce a hypothetical explanation “B” from an observed surprising circumstance “A” is to surmise that “B” may be true because then “A” would be a matter of course. Thus, to abduce B from A involves determining that B is sufficient (or nearly sufficient), but not necessary, for A.

For example, the lawn is wet. But if it rained last night, then it would be unsurprising that the lawn is wet. Therefore, by abductive reasoning, the possibility that it rained last night is reasonable. . . . abducing rain last night from the observation of the wet lawn can lead to a false conclusion. In this example, dew, lawn sprinklers, or some other process may have resulted in the wet lawn, even in the absence of rain.

[Philosopher Charles Sanders] Peirce argues that good abductive reasoning from A to B involves not simply a determination that, e.g., B is sufficient for A, but also that B is among the most economical explanations for A. Simplification and economy call for the ‘leap’ of abduction.

For what seems like the ten thousandth time:  ID does not posit that the existence of complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures within living systems compels “act of an intelligent agent” as a matter of logical necessity.  ID posits that given our universal experience concerning complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures where the provenance of such has been actually observed, the best explanation of the existence of these same things in living structures is “act of intelligent agent.” 

KN, I hope this helps.  If you disagree with any of the premises or the abuction that we say follows from the premises, by all means attack them with abandon.  But please don’t attack an argument we do not make.  That just wastes everyone’s time. 

 

 

 

Comments
Kantian,
So the claim would have to be that the genetic code is a language in exactly the same way that a computer language is a language, right?
The material conditions required for the genetic code to produce a specific material effect are exactly the same as those for a computer code to produce a specific material effect. Yes.Upright BiPed
October 1, 2013
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ID proponents obviously have the burden of demonstrating their claims. For example, they have the burden of demonstrating that the DNA code and a computer code are identical in relevant respects. And if you disagree with their conclusions that is fair enough. Tell us why. But it is not fair to attempt to refute ID by attacking a claim ID proponents do not make.
I framed the premise as an analogy ("the genetic code is like a language") because I think that the claim about identity ("the genetic code is a language") is much, much harder to make. I bring to your attention two papers that argue against the identity-claim: (1) Shanon, B., 1978. "The Genetic Code and Human Language"Synthese 39(3), 401-415. Automaton-Theoretical Foundations of Psychology and Biology, Part II. (2) Tsonis, A. A., J. B. Elsner and P. A. Tsonis, 1997. "Is DNA a language?" Journal of Theoretical Biology 184: 25-29. So yes, the burden is on intelligent design theorists to argue against the points made by Shanon and by Tsonis et al. I also think it is deeply mistaken to posit an identity between languages and machines -- it is one thing to say that a machine is 'created by an intelligent being' -- although drastically under-appreciates the role of cooperation and collaboration between and among intelligent beings -- but it makes no sense to say that natural languages are created by intelligent beings. So the claim would have to be that the genetic code is a language in exactly the same way that a computer language is a language, right?Kantian Naturalist
October 1, 2013
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cantor, Darwinism, as used by ID proponents, is clearly defined in the Glossary, and Elizabeth is familiar with this definition. She has been posting here for years. Why she thinks Meyer departs from it is never explained. But to review, since this is a thread about misunderstandings of ID: Darwinism:
When ID proponents on this site use the term “Darwinism,” they are referring to Neo-Darwinism, also called the modern evolutionary synthesis or Neo-Darwinian evolution (“NDE”), the basic tenants of which are described in the New World Encyclopedia as follows:
At the heart of the modern synthesis is the view that evolution is gradual and can be explained by small genetic changes in populations over time, due to the impact of natural selection on the phenotypic variation among individuals in the populations (Mayr 1982; Futuyama 1986).
This is precisely how Meyer presents it in his book. There is no mention of "common descent" in the definition because it's about the mechanism.
I was stunned (and, I must say, disappointed) by EBL’s grotesque misunderstanding of Meyer’s book.
There's misunderstanding and there's outright mispresentation. I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'm thinking of starting an OP over there at TSZ titled Elizabeth's Howler. But it's her blog over there, I'm trying to respect that. Have you noticed how her argument has evolved? In her OP over at TSZ there's no mention of this "under Common Descent" nonsense. There's no hint that Meyer is not talking about mechanism but is instead trying to refute common descent. In fact, the very first diagram she introduces is one of common descent! It's just that the disparity precedes the diversity. Her objection to Meyer is incoherent. Oh, and wrong.Mung
October 1, 2013
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Mung at post 6 wrote:
Good timing Barry, because once again we have all the evidence in hand that Elizabeth B. Liddle does not understand the argument Meyer makes in Darwin’s Doubt.
Perhaps I haven't been on this forum long enough to know better, but I was stunned (and, I must say, disappointed) by EBL's grotesque misunderstanding of Meyer's book.cantor
October 1, 2013
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F/N: I should note that the adult human is the product of the unfolding of information in the embryo and originally the zygote, apart of course from additional info acquired by experience and learning. That info is processed through systems starting from cellular level that are themselves info rich. It remains the case throughout that the only observed source of FSCO/I is design, purposefully and intelligently directed contingency. KFkairosfocus
October 1, 2013
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And again, as they say in those infomercials, 'but wait, there's more!' It is now also found that the digital information in DNA is reducible to the quantum information and the quantum information/entanglement requires a beyond space and time cause to explain its effect:
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
,,,And here is supporting evidence that quantum information is in fact ‘conserved’;,,,
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
Verse:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The implications of having beyond space and time quantum information in molecular biology on a massive scale are fairly clear and wonderful for those of us of a Theistic persuasion:
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068
Verse and Music:
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." AIN'T NO GRAVE (Can Hold My Body Down) Johnny Cash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66QcIlblI1U
bornagain77
October 1, 2013
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But wait, as they tell us on those infomercials, 'that's not all'! On top of the fact that the information in the DNA is not just like digital information but actually is 'super' digital information, it is now found that there is a deeper level of 'quantum' information in the DNA that is strongly implicated in Quantum computation in the cell. Something our best computer engineers can only dream of accomplishing in any meaningful fashion:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/ Is DNA a quantum computer? Stuart Hameroff Excerpt: DNA could function as a quantum computers with superpositions of base pair dipoles acting as qubits. Entanglement among the qubits, necessary in quantum computation is accounted for through quantum coherence in the pi stack where the quantum information is shared,,, http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/dnaquantumcomputer1.htm
A glimpse of how quantum computation plays out in DNA is illustrated here:
Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
Of note: DNA repair machines ‘Fixing every pothole in America before the next rush hour’ is analogous to the traveling salesman problem. The traveling salesman problem is a NP-hard (read: very hard) problem in computer science; The problem involves finding the shortest possible route between cities, visiting each city only once. ‘Traveling salesman problems’ are notorious for keeping supercomputers busy for days.
NP-hard problem - Examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-hard#Examples Speed Test of Quantum Versus Conventional Computing: Quantum Computer Wins - May 8, 2013 Excerpt: quantum computing is, "in some cases, really, really fast." McGeoch says the calculations the D-Wave excels at involve a specific combinatorial optimization problem, comparable in difficulty to the more famous "travelling salesperson" problem that's been a foundation of theoretical computing for decades.,,, "This type of computer is not intended for surfing the internet, but it does solve this narrow but important type of problem really, really fast," McGeoch says. "There are degrees of what it can do. If you want it to solve the exact problem it's built to solve, at the problem sizes I tested, it's thousands of times faster than anything I'm aware of. If you want it to solve more general problems of that size, I would say it competes -- it does as well as some of the best things I've looked at. At this point it's merely above average but shows a promising scaling trajectory." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130508122828.htm
Since it is obvious that there is not a material CPU (central processing unit) in the DNA, or cell, busily computing answers to this monster logistic problem, in a purely ‘material’ fashion, by crunching bits, then it is readily apparent that this monster ‘traveling salesman problem’, for DNA repair, must somehow be computed by ‘non-local’ quantum computation within the cell and/or within DNA. As far as I know, trillions upon trillions of atoms being quantumly entangled in DNA is far, far, beyond what our best computer engineering has produced thus far for trying to achieve meaningful quantum computation:
Large scale qubit generation for quantum computing - 2011 Excerpt: "Many people are trying to build a quantum computer," Olivier Pfister tells PhysOrg.com. "One to the problems, though, is that you need hundreds of thousands of qubits. So far, scalability has been something of a problem, since generating that many qubits is difficult.",,,Pfister points out that quantum computers of this sort cannot actually replace classical computers. However, quantum computers can be used for processing some types of information faster. “This is an attractive model for experiments that need cluster states. The big deal is that we got all these little quantum registers, and the entanglement is remarkably consistent.”,,, The next step, Pfister says, is to entangle the already-entangled qubits into a bigger register. “It requires additional complexity to entangle them all together, and we’re on our way to this.,,, We have shown that our control of entanglement is pretty good, but we need even better control to make entangled sets bigger than four.”,,, http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-large-scale-qubit-quantum.html Physicists Entangle 8 Photons in 'Spooky' Experiment - February 2012 Excerpt: Entanglement is a fragile state, and entangling photons with any efficiency is a major challenge; physicists generally produce a huge number of photons for every pair of successfully entangled particles. The difficulty of creating multiple pairs of entangled photons grows exponentially as more are added. Xing-Can Yao and his colleagues at USTC calculated that if they simply extended previous six-photon experiments to include another pair of entangled photons, it would take roughly 10 hours of experimental time to generate one entangled eight-photon set. (Physicists verify the presence of entanglement by running statistical tests that require large samples of photons, so an experiment that takes hours to produce a single entangled state is impractically slow.) To overcome that limitation, the researchers used an optical scheme that filters out fewer photons and hence boosts the output of entangled photons. http://www.livescience.com/18504-quantum-entanglement-photons.html
Throw on top of that that DNA is communicating with the rest of the cell by photonic communication,,
Are humans really beings of light? Excerpt: A particularly gifted student talked him into another experiment.,,, He also found that DNA could send out a wide range of frequencies, some of which seemed to be linked to certain functions. If DNA stored this light, it would naturally emit more light on being unzipped. These and other studies proved to Popp that one of the most essential sources of light and biophoton emissions was DNA. http://viewzone2.com/dna.html
Then perhaps some of us may start to get a small glimpse of the unparalleled, staggering, wondrous, integrated complexity being dealt with in regards to the functional information inherent within DNA.bornagain77
October 1, 2013
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as to this:
ID posits that the complex specified information in a cell is identical to the complex specified information of a computer code. The DNA code is not “like” a computer code. The DNA code and a computer code are two manifestations of the same thing.
And here's some of the evidence that use to be presented whenever an atheist denied information was inherent in the DNA (which use to be quite often):
The Digital Code of DNA - 2003 - Leroy Hood & David Galas Excerpt: The discovery of the structure of DNA transformed biology profoundly, catalysing the sequencing of the human genome and engendering a new view of biology as an information science. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/full/nature01410.html Every Bit Digital DNA’s Programming Really Bugs Some ID Critics - March 2010 Excerpt: In 2003 renowned biologist Leroy Hood and biotech guru David Galas authored a review article in the world’s leading scientific journal, Nature, titled, “The digital code of DNA.”,,, MIT Professor of Mechanical Engineering Seth Lloyd (no friend of ID) likewise eloquently explains why DNA has a “digital” nature: "It’s been known since the structure of DNA was elucidated that DNA is very digital. There are four possible base pairs per site, two bits per site, three and a half billion sites, seven billion bits of information in the human DNA. There’s a very recognizable digital code of the kind that electrical engineers rediscovered in the 1950s that maps the codes for sequences of DNA onto expressions of proteins." http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo12/12luskin2.php Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life - Hubert P. Yockey, 2005 Excerpt: “Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies.” http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521802932&ss=exc The Digital Code of DNA and the Unimagined Complexity of a ‘Simple’ Bacteria – Rabbi Moshe Averick – video (Notes in Description) http://vimeo.com/35730736 etc.. etc..
But now, to prove that the information is not merely like a digital code but actually is a digital code, all we have to do is reference George Church's work on storing digital information in DNA:
Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 Quote from preceding video: "The theoretical (information) density of DNA is you could store the total world information, which is 1.8 zetabytes, at least in 2011, in about 4 grams of DNA." Sriram Kosuri PhD. - Wyss Institute Harvard cracks DNA storage, crams 700 terabytes of data into a single gram - Sebastian Anthony - August 17, 2012 Excerpt: A bioengineer and geneticist at Harvard’s Wyss Institute have successfully stored 5.5 petabits of data — around 700 terabytes — in a single gram of DNA, smashing the previous DNA data density record by a thousand times.,,, Just think about it for a moment: One gram of DNA can store 700 terabytes of data. That’s 14,000 50-gigabyte Blu-ray discs… in a droplet of DNA that would fit on the tip of your pinky. To store the same kind of data on hard drives — the densest storage medium in use today — you’d need 233 3TB drives, weighing a total of 151 kilos. In Church and Kosuri’s case, they have successfully stored around 700 kilobytes of data in DNA — Church’s latest book, in fact — and proceeded to make 70 billion copies (which they claim, jokingly, makes it the best-selling book of all time!) totaling 44 petabytes of data stored. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134672-harvard-cracks-dna-storage-crams-700-terabytes-of-data-into-a-single-gram DNA: The Ultimate Hard Drive - Science Magazine, August-16-2012 Excerpt: "When it comes to storing information, hard drives don't hold a candle to DNA. Our genetic code packs billions of gigabytes into a single gram. A mere milligram of the molecule could encode the complete text of every book in the Library of Congress and have plenty of room to spare." http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/08/written-in-dna-code.html
Also of note:
The Computer Coding Found In DNA Surpasses Man's Ability To Code Computers - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050638 'It's becoming extremely problematic to explain how the genome could arise and how these multiple levels of overlapping information could arise, since our best computer programmers can't even conceive of overlapping codes. The genome dwarfs all of the computer information technology that man has developed. So I think that it is very problematic to imagine how you can achieve that through random changes in the code.,,, Dr. John Sanford - Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of The Genome
bornagain77
October 1, 2013
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Yeah, Kantian Naturalist is an honorable man. Yeah, I'm an excellent driver.Mapou
October 1, 2013
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Is there more csi in an adult human than in a human embryo of just a few cels? If so, is an act of an intelligent agent the best explanation for that additional csi? I think that a system for creating csi, designed and implemented by an intelligent agent, is a better explanation for that additional csi than any contemporaneous act of an intelligent entity. If there is not more csi in an adult than embryo, then when did the csi that needs explaining come into existence?congregate
October 1, 2013
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Good timing Barry, because once again we have all the evidence in hand that Elizabeth B. Liddle does not understand the argument Meyer makes in Darwin's Doubt. She thinks he's arguing against common descent and that he is comparing what we do see from what would be expected "under Common Descent." A phrase not actually used by Meyer at all.Mung
October 1, 2013
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Here we have the tired old “ID is nothing by an argument from analogy” argument.
That's it, in a nutshell. otoh, if there's an actual argument from analogy to be found that us defective, it is Darwin's. Mother Nature is not like an intelligent breeder.Mung
October 1, 2013
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You should have put, 'in our universal experience of A where its provenance has been actually observed, it has always arisen from B', in upper case, for KN and his merry band, Barry. Reinforce, reinforce, reinforce, and one day maybe, just maybe, a gratuitously conjectured multiverse or a 'seeding' of life on earth by extraterrestrials, or the fecundity of a great fat nothing with a cornucopia of matter, life and intelligence, might seem a smidgen less plausible than an observed identity between between the complex specified information in a cell and the complex specified information of a computer code. Good luck with that, Bazzer. I'm sorry to have addressed you in such a wildly informal and reckless, vernacular, Barry, but the nihilism I've been addressing has got to me. I feel myself sinking under the weight of its madness.Axel
October 1, 2013
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Have I missed something, or do you mean your version of the conclusion (3) to read "Therefore, abductive reasoning leads to the conclusion that B is the best explanation of A in living systems"?Thomas2
October 1, 2013
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Correction: "Provide for us, please, EVIDENCE, that Kantian Naturalist is a ‘Darwinist friend’ at UD."Gregory
October 1, 2013
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Back up, big rig. What makes you think KN is a 'Darwinist friend'? Did he announce to you, Barry and UD: "Hi, my name is Kantian Naturalist and I'm a 'Darwinist friend' of IDism"? You've got a recent thread stating that 'Darwinists' (whoever they are) don't deserve 'charity' from IDists at UD. I don't know your position on this, Barry. But it is far from clear that you are genuine speaking of 'Darwinists' as friends or even who you mean. From my distant relations with him, KN is not what you claim he is. I might offer an answer to the baffled question "How can an intelligent person of good will follow this site for several years and still not understand the basics of ID?" later, but for now Barry, your explanation is crucial to your accusation in this thread. Provide for us, please, EVIDENCE, that Kantian Naturalist is a 'Darwinian friend' at UD.Gregory
October 1, 2013
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