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Questioning The Role Of Gene Duplication-Based Evolution In Monarch Migration

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Each year about 100 million Monarch butterflies from Canada and northeastern United States make their journey to the Mexican Sierra Madre mountains in an astonishing two-month long migration (Ref 1).  They fly 2500 miles to a remote area that is only 60 square miles in size (Ref 1).  No one fully understands what triggers this mass movement of Lepidopterans.  But there is no getting away from the fact that this is a phenomenon that, as one review summed up, “staggers the mind”, especially when one considers that these butterflies are freshly-hatched (Ref 1).  In short, Monarch migrants are always “on their maiden voyage” (Ref 2).  The location they fly to is home to a forest of broad-trunked trees that effectively retain warmth and keep out rain- factors that are essential for the Monarchs’ survival (Ref 1).
 
With a four-inch wingspan and a weight of less than 1/5th of an ounce, it is remarkable that the Monarchs survive the odyssey (Ref 1).  Making frequent stops for nectar and water, they fly approximately 50 miles a day avoiding all manner of predator.  Rapidly shifting winds over the great lakes and scorching desert temperatures in the southern states provide formidable obstacles (Ref 1).  Nevertheless the Monarchs’ finely-tuned sense of direction gets most of them across.
 
It was not until 1975 that scientists first uncovered the full extent of the Monarch’s migration (Ref 1).  What has become clear since then is that only Monarchs travel such distances to avoid the “certain death of a cold winter”.   According to University of Toronto zoologist David Gibo, soaring is the key to making it to Mexico (Ref 1). Indeed flapping wings is about the most energy inefficient way of getting anywhere.  Other aspects of the Monarch’s migration-linked behaviors, such as the reproductive diapause that halts energy-draining reproductive activity during its journey, continue to fascinate scientists worldwide (Ref 2).  Both diapause and the 6-month longevity characteristic of Monarchs are caused by decreased levels of Juvenile Hormone which is itself regulated by four genes (Ref 2).
 
Exactly how Monarchs navigate so precisely to such a specific location is a subject of intense debate.  One theory suggests that they respond to the sun’s location, another that they are somehow sensitive to the earth’s magnetic field (Ref 1).  Recent molecular studies have shown that Monarchs have specialized cells in their brains that regulate their daily ‘clock’ and help keep them on course (Ref 3).  Biologist Chip Taylor from the University of Kansas has done some remarkable tagging experiments demonstrating that even if Monarchs are moved to different locations during the course of their journey south, they are still able to re-orient themselves and continue onwards to their final destination (Ref 1). 
 
A study headed by Stephen Rappert at the University of Massachusetts has elucidated much of the biological basis of the timing-component of Monarch migration (Ref 3).  Through a process better known as time-compensated sun compass orientation, proteins with names such as Period, Timeless, Cryptochrome 1 and Cryptochrome 2 provide Monarchs with a well-regulated light responsiveness during both day and night (Ref 3).  While Cryptochrome 1 is a photoreceptor that responds specifically to blue light, Cryptochrome 2 is a repressor of transcription, efficiently regulating the period and timeless genes during the course of a 24-hour light cycle (Ref 3).  Investigations using Monarch heads have not only provided exquisite detail of the daily, light-dependent oscillations in the amounts of these proteins but have also revealed a ‘complex relationship’ of molecular happenings. 
 
Indeed, the activities of both Cryptochrome 2 and Timeless are intertwined with at least two other timing proteins called ‘Clock’ and ‘Cycle’ (Ref 3).  Preliminary results suggest that Period, Timeless and Cryptochrome 2 form a large protein complex, with Cryptochrome 2 being a repressor of Clock and Cycle transcription.  Cryptochrome 2 is also intimately involved with an area of the Monarch’s brain called the Central Cortex that likely houses the light-dependent ‘sun compass’, so critical for accurate navigation (Ref 3).
 
Rappert’s team have speculated that the Monarch’s dual Cryptochrome light response system evolved into the single Cryptochrome systems found in other insects through a hypothetical gene loss event (Ref 3).  Furthermore they have suggested that the dual Cryptochrome system itself arose through a duplication of an ancestral gene (Ref 3).  Biologist Christopher Wills wrote of gene duplication as a ‘rare occurrence’ in which “an extra copy of a gene gets placed elsewhere in the genome” (Ref 4, p.95).  Seen from an evolutionary perspective, these two gene copies are then “free to evolve separately…shaped by selection and chance to take on different tasks” (Ref 4, p.95).
 
While experiments have shown that transgenic Monarch Cryptochrome 1 can rescue Cryptochrome deficiency in other insects such as fruit flies, what still remains elusive is how exactly gene duplication could have lead to two proteins with such widely-differing functions as those found in the two Monarch Cryptochromes.  Indeed biochemist Michael Behe has been instrumental in revealing the explanatory insufficiencies of terms such as gene duplication and genetic shuffling within the context of molecular evolution.  As Behe expounded:
 
“The hypothesis of gene duplication and shuffling says nothing about how any particular protein or protein system was first produced- whether slowly or suddenly, or whether by natural selection or some other mechanism….. In order to say that a system developed gradually by a Darwinian mechanism a person must show that the function of the system could “have formed by numerous, successive slight modifications”…If a factory for making bicycles were duplicated it would make bicycles, not motorcycles; that’s what is meant by the word duplication.  A gene for a protein might be duplicated by a random mutation, but it does not just “happen” to also have sophisticated new properties” (Ref 5, pp.90, 94).
 
When it comes to supplying a plausible mechanism for how gene duplication and subsequent natural selection led to two distinctly functioning Cryptochromes and how these then integrated with other time-regulatory proteins in Monarch brains, there is a noticeable absence of detail.  Each successive slight modification of a duplicated gene would have had to confer an advantage, for selection and chance to get anywhere.  Furthermore the newly duplicated Cryptochrome would have had to have become successfully incorporated into a novel scheme of daylight processing for migration patterns to begin. 
 
Evolutionary biology must move beyond its hand-waving generalizations if it is to truly gain the title of a rigorous scientific discipline.  In the meantime, protein systems such as the Monarch’s Cryptochromes will continue to challenge what we claim to know about evolutionary origins.
     
References
1. NOVA: The Incredible Journey Of The Butterflies, Aired on PBS on the 27th January, 2009, See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/butterflies/program.html
 
2. Haisun Zhu, Amy Casselman, Steven M. Reppert (2008), Chasing Migration Genes: A Brain Expressed SequenceTag Resource for Summer and Migratory Monarch Butterflies (Danaus plexippus), PLoS One, Volume 3 (1), p. e1345
 
3. Haisun Zhu, Ivo Sauman, Quan Yuan, Amy Casselman, Myai Emery-Le, Patrick Emery, Steven M. Reppert (2008), Cryptochromes Define a Novel Circadian Clock Mechanism in Monarch Butterflies That May Underlie Sun Compass Navigation, PLoS Biology, Volume 6 (1), pp. 0138-0155
 
4. Christomper Wills (1991), Exons, Introns & Talking Genes: The Science Behind The Human Genome Project, Oxford University Press, Oxford UK
 
5. Michael Behe (1996), Darwin’s Black Box, The Biochemical Challenge To Evolution,  A Touchstone Book Published By Simon & Schuster, New York

 

Copyright (c) Robert Deyes, 2009

Comments
Joseph:
As for foresight as I have already told you the foresight is programmed into the organism- see Dr Spetner’s “Not By Chance”.
"as I have already told you" -- Thanks. We needed the authority of your declaration. Now that we have it, the ID - Darwin debate has ended. Thanks again. The front-loading hypothesis, a subset if ID certainly posits that the foresight was programmed in. Many IDers hold to the front-loading hypothesis. I, for one, do not accept that front-loading explains it all. It may be a factor, it gets good support from evidence that there is an additional preservative in DNA beyond natural selection. However, I am not prepared to conscede that there is enough storage capacity in single-celled life to have programmed the varieties that followed. That said, if front-loading were validated, then foresight would be established. If foresight were established Allen_MacNeill would jump ship and become an IDer. Right, Allen_MacNeill?bFast
March 3, 2009
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Joseph: 1] Not all legitimately "random" variables or functions/distributions are "flat." 2] Non-foresighted -- thus, at-random -- redistributions of DNA base sequences do not account for the origin of the sequences [esp at novel body-plan level, starting with first life], or their functionality or the underlying codes/computer language and algorithms and data structures, or the associated interfacing and processing nanomachinery. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 3, 2009
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Joseph,
As for Allen’s continuing to say tat euks evolved from proks via SET, there is also scientific data which demonstrates that proks “devolved” from euks- euks came first.
you have said this many times now, but have never provided any sources or citations for those claims, or even a summary of the evidence. could you please do so?Khan
March 3, 2009
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Joseph, If what you say is true, then the NCSE is not in touch with current evolutionary biology theory or at least a major segment of it. Most of the changes to the genome according to this segment are due retroposition. This can be due to as little as a couple nucleo acids or to long strings being inserted back into the genome at random places. This is part of the theoretical basis for punctuated equilibrium and why there is stasis and then sudden changes. Since Allen is at Cornell I would believe he is under the influence of those who adhere tof this theory.jerry
March 3, 2009
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Are Mutations Random?
The statement that mutations are random is both profoundly true and profoundly untrue at the same time. The true aspect of this statement stems from the fact that, to the best of our knowledge, the consequences of a mutation have no influence whatsoever on the probability that this mutation will or will not occur. In other words, mutations occur randomly with respect to whether their effects are useful. Thus, beneficial DNA changes do not happen more often simply because an organism could benefit from them. Moreover, even if an organism has acquired a beneficial mutation during its lifetime, the corresponding information will not flow back into the DNA in the organism's germline. This is a fundamental insight that Jean-Baptiste Lamarck got wrong and Charles Darwin got right. However, the idea that mutations are random can be regarded as untrue if one considers the fact that not all types of mutations occur with equal probability. Rather, some occur more frequently than others because they are favored by low-level biochemical reactions. These reactions are also the main reason why mutations are an inescapable property of any system that is capable of reproduction in the real world. Mutation rates are usually very low, and biological systems go to extraordinary lengths to keep them as low as possible, mostly because many mutational effects are harmful. Nonetheless, mutation rates never reach zero, even despite both low-level protective mechanisms, like DNA repair or proofreading during DNA replication, and high-level mechanisms, like melanin deposition in skin cells to reduce radiation damage. Beyond a certain point, avoiding mutation simply becomes too costly to cells. Thus, mutation will always be present as a powerful force in evolution.
Joseph
March 3, 2009
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As for Allen's continuing to say tat euks evolved from proks via SET, there is also scientific data which demonstrates that proks "devolved" from euks- euks came first. So why does Allen refuse to even consider that scenario?Joseph
March 3, 2009
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For Allen MacNeill: Evolution 101: Mutations are random The NCSE says that the major cause of mutations is copying errors-Mutation defined As for foresight as I have already told you the foresight is programmed into the organism- see Dr Spetner's "Not By Chance".Joseph
March 3, 2009
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OK, Dar-evo skeptic.tribune7
March 2, 2009
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tribune7, Aren't we all that are regulars here "evo skeptic?" Actually I am not. I believe evo happened. I am just skeptical of how it happened.jerry
March 2, 2009
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Jerry, I prefer the term "evo-skeptic".tribune7
March 2, 2009
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Allen, You may not know it but you just gave the farm away. In order to contradict my assertion that the 47+ engines of change have not produced macro evolution you made a big point of endosymbiosis. But what was telling was the lack of other examples. For someone who teaches evolutionary biology, is writing a book on it and claims to be on the cusp of what is cutting edge in evolutionary biology, there was an amazing lack of barking about macro evolution (our understanding of it.) One would have thought with all these scientists, and all these books and all these years there would have been just one tiny multi cellular example to flaunt at us. No we get endosymbiosis. Which may or may not be a macro evolutionary event. We can discuss this one in particular but even if we come to the conclusion that it could be, it is only a spec of an oasis in a barren desert. We need a blooming botanical garden of examples for a theory with such overwhelming evidence that one has to be deranged to question it. And by the way why did you identify tribune7 as a creationist on your blog? You have no way of knowing this. I have watched tribune7 comment for a couple years and wouldn't identify him as a creationist. He may be but you would have to ask him before you assume.jerry
March 2, 2009
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bFast (#44): "I contend, the intelligent design community contends, that foresight was necessary to produce life as we know it." Of course. There is no such thing as unguided material causation operating in nature. Life, or species, appear designed. The appearance, coupled with organized complexity seen in every aspect of nature, corresponds directly to the work of Intelligent causation, not unintelligent causation (= unguided material). Darwinism makes no sense while existing in a state dependent upon illogic. This is what happens when God is excluded. RayR. Martinez
March 2, 2009
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R. Martinez:
Why is Allen attempting to distance evolutionary mechanisms from the concepts seen in “random” and “accidental”? Answer: He is attempting to persuade the naive undecided Theist reader into believing that evolution is friendly to Theism worldview.
I think you misunderstand Allen_MacNeill on this one. I would say rather that he is distancing himself from the concepts of random and accidental in attempt to convince the unlearned community that IDers are actually idiots, and that there really is much more to darwinian theory than there really is. While in the splitting of hairs he is correct that Darwinian theory counts on some stuff that is cyclical rather than "random" and on some mechanisms that were supposedly developed via chance + necessity, none of this is beyond the recognition of the main ID community. We just find it difficult to give a complex discussion of the subtleties of RM every time we use it. It remains, according to darwinian theory there are only two forces at work in biology -- variation that has no "intention", no foresight, no strategy for developing biology, and "natural selection", the one and only filter that separates the successful from the unsuccessful. (Yes, Allen_MacNeill, I consider sexual selection to be a subset of natural selection.) Neo-Darwinian theory, therefore, is fully summarized as non-foresighted variation filtered through natural selection (NFV + NS). I contend, the intelligent design community contends, that foresight was necessary to produce life as we know it.bFast
March 2, 2009
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bFast (#41): "R. Martinez, your link doesn’t work. You need to post the full address not the version with the elipses (…)." Thanks. I mindlessly copied and pasted Allen's quote which included the link in its inoperable form. For what it is worth here is the working link to Allen's essay: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html Thanks for pointing out my error. RayR. Martinez
March 2, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill (#37): "As to the assertion that all of the 47+ mechanisms listed in my blog are 'random' or 'accidental', this is simply not the case. On the contrary, a large percentage of these mechanisms are the result of processes that are not 'random' by any reasonable definition of that term. I have repeatedly been very careful to point this out, but that clearly has been missed by some of the commentators here...." The above paragraph says "a large percentage" of evolutionary mechanisms are NOT random "by any reasonable definition of that term...." Allen continues: "....It is also not the case that the 47+ processes are not 'guided'. Indeed they are 'guided', by the various internal and environmental forces that produce both the variations and the various evolutionary mechanisms that operate upon them [long list of these alleged mechanisms omitted]." Allen places single quote marks around the word guided like this ('guided') to indicate that these alleged mechanisms have no connection to Guide or Intelligence. Then he says that these mechanisms are 'guided' "by various internal and environmental forces." In other words, inanimate matter. Allen is saying that these "various internal and environmental forces" behave in a guided non-random manner. He is assigning, by assertion, properties that belong exclusively to Mind and Intelligence to inanimate matter. If these forces are not guided then they must be random since unguidedness and unpredictability correspond. Since Allen has admitted that the mechanisms have no connection to Guide or Mind they, by definition, MUST be random and accidental since inanimate matter has no mind and is unaware of its own existence. Why is Allen attempting to distance evolutionary mechanisms from the concepts seen in "random" and "accidental"? Answer: He is attempting to persuade the naive undecided Theist reader into believing that evolution is friendly to Theism worldview. Allen recognizes that the concepts seen in "random" and "accidental" prevent Theists from accepting evolutionary theory because no Theist can look at nature and conclude that it happened by random, chance, or accident. When and if said Theist accepts evolutionary theory, its alleged mechanisms remain random and accidental based mechanisms. RayR. Martinez
March 2, 2009
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R. Martinez, your link doesn't work. You need to post the full address not the version with the elipses (...).bFast
March 2, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill (#19): "As for the old “RM & NS” strawman, please go here: http://evolutionlist.blogspot......awman.html ID supporters are arguing against a version of evolutionary that was almost fifty years out of date by the turn of the millennium, which they would know if they actually had any training in the science of evolutionary biology." According to the modern theory since Darwin AND the biological synthesis, RM + NS is the main (but not the exclusive) mechanism causing biological production. Your essay simply protests the lack of a more robust description of RM + NS while blaming anti-evolutionists. No one is obligated to include reams of jargon when simply referring to the main mechanism. When RM + NS is alluded to this simple way, your three prerequisites are inclusively presupposed. Since Darwinists do the same, that is, refer to RM + NS the exact same way you literally have no point, Allen. RayR. Martinez
March 2, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill:
That said, however, it is also demonstrably the case that none of the mechanisms listed above can be shown empirically to be “foresighted”.
Are you agreeing with me that if the ID community changes its summary of naturalistic evolution from RM + NS to NFV + NS, that we have, in your opinion, entered the modern biological world? Are you in agreement that if foresight were demonstrated in the evolutionary process, it would obligate you to become an IDer? (Please note post #31 in the "Increased Oxygen = Increased Biological Information..." thread for examples where foresight seems to be the best explanation for certain data, and tests to confirm the existance of foresight.) I personally am of the mind that foresight is the key feature of intelligence that the ID community should be focused on. I think it reasonable to define intelligence as foresight even though intelligence has other attributes. Allen_MacNeill:
Indeed, the whole idea of “foresightedness” in natural processes seems to me to violate several very well-established principles of physics, including the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Are you suggesting that foresight is an impossibility?bFast
March 2, 2009
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Allen, I'm curious as well about #35. Where is the actual proof of this? It's just a story.ellijacket
March 2, 2009
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As to the assertion that all of the 47+ mechanisms listed in my blog are "random" or "accidental", this is simply not the case. On the contrary, a large percentage of these mechanisms are the result of processes that are not “random” by any reasonable definition of that term. I have repeatedly been very careful to point this out, but that clearly has been missed by some of the commentators here. It is also not the case that the 47+ processes are not “guided". Indeed they are “guided”, by the various internal and environmental forces that produce both the variations and the various evolutionary mechanisms that operate upon them (i.e. natural selection, sexual selection, founder effects, genetic bottlenecks, neutral “drift” in deep evolutionary time, exaptation, heterochronic development, changes in homeotic development, interspecific competition, species-level selection, serial endosymbiosis, convergence/divergence, hybridization, phylogenetic fusion, background and mass extinction/adaptive radiation, and internal variance). That said, however, it is also demonstrably the case that none of the mechanisms listed above can be shown empirically to be “foresighted". Indeed, the whole idea of “foresightedness” in natural processes seems to me to violate several very well-established principles of physics, including the Second Law of Thermodynamics. How can any natural process be empirically shown to be genuinely “foresighted"? Do rocks fall “in order to” reach the ground? Do gas molecules move “in order to” produce the phenomena we describe with Boyle’s Law? Do the electrons in the valence energy shells of hydrogen and oxygen form shared couplets “in order to” produce water? Do particular genenetic changes happen “in order to” produce phenotypic changes that have no effects on organisms’ survival and/or reproduction now, but might have in the future? And how can anyone show any of these to be the case? It is important to note that the terms “foresighted” and “goal-oriented” are not equivalent. The latter term is entirely compatible with both physics in general and evolutionary biology in particular. Indeed, the genomes of all living organisms are “goal-oriented programs” (as most clearly pointed out by Ernst Mayr), in that they organize and control the assembly and operation of the living organisms for which they code. However, the processes by which such genomes have come into being (i.e. the 47+ mechanisms listed here, operating through the various mechanisms of micro- and macroevolution listed above) have not been empirically shown to be either “foresighted” nor “goal-oriented". It seems to me that this would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to do. What kinds of empirical observations could one conduct that would unambiguously verify today that some component of an existing organism’s genome or phenome was present in that organism now because at some point in the future it might become necessary for that organism’s survival and/or reproduction? Clearly, once an organism has survived and/or reproduced one can point to its various attributes and say “yes, that attribute appears to have contributed to the organism’s survival/reproduction". However, that is no more evidence of “foresightedness” than a lottery winner saying “I chose these lottery numbers (or bought those particular scratch-off tickets) because I knew they would be winners". This is known as the “fallacy of affirming the consequent” (also called post hoc, ergo propter hoc argumentation) and is logically inadmissible in the natural sciences.Allen_MacNeill
March 2, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill:
serial endosymbiosis ... resulted in the origin of the Domain Eukarya around 2 billion years ago.
How cool. Has anyone moved this above the level of hypothesis, above the level of "just so story"? As prokaryote evolution has been virtually non-existant for the last 2 billion years, the raw materials surely still exist. A little labwork should be able to produce a serial endosymbiosis event that creates a new eukariote. Now that would be some serious support for naturalistic evolution. BTW, please limit the experiment to no more than two simultaneous variation events, as we know that this is the extreme edge of evolutions prowess.bFast
March 2, 2009
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In #33 jerry wrote:
"One thing that Allen has not been able to do is point to any meaningful macroevolution from his 47+ (since I don’t know how many there are now) engines of variation."
On the contrary, I have done exactly this. As just one example, here is a link to a recent article on my blog: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2009/02/macroevolution-examples-and-evidence.html In it, I describe how a well-studied macroevolutionary mechanism – serial endosymbiosis (#40 in the list of mechanisms that produce phenotypic variation, found here: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html) – resulted in the origin of the Domain Eukarya around 2 billion years ago. There are many other examples, some of which I am including in my new evolution textbook (for non-scientists), scheduled for publication in 2010.Allen_MacNeill
March 2, 2009
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Joseph, I agree about migration, but I think that it is true that migration probably needs knowledge. I would be willing to admit that there could be some very small chance that some sort of automatic migration is possible.Collin
March 2, 2009
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Joseph, In some of the stuff Allen has recommended in the past, are studies/theories that say that some mutations are not random. In some of them only certain types of mutations will happen and I believe this is currently limited to single celled organisms. In other cases there are those who propose that environmental pressures increase the mutation rate and thus the likelihood for change. Allen is not so absolute and covers all his bases so if one accuses him of something then he can call you wrong and an ignoramus. One thing that Allen has not been able to do is point to any meaningful macro evolution from his 47+ (since I don't know how many there are now) engines of variation. Also you have to know that Allen must keep up his anti ID bona fides or else he will be cut off at the knees not only at Cornell but at any place in the evolutionary biology world.jerry
March 2, 2009
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JT, Saying "instintive" is just another way of saying "we don't have any idea". The point about migration is INFORMATION. As where did the INFORMATION for migration come from? To migrate takes KNOWLEDGE. You have to know where you are, know where you want to go and know how to get there. And there isn't anything scientific which demonstrates such knowledge can be reduced to chemical reactions.Joseph
March 2, 2009
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To Allen MacNeill, In your scenario every mutation is a genetic accident. And therefor "evolution" occurs through an accumulation of genetic accidents. From the “Contemporary Discourse in the Field Of Biology” series I am reading Biological Evolution: An Anthology of Current Thought, edited by Katy Human:
The old, discredited equation of evolution with progress has been largely superseded by the almost whimsical notion that evolution requires mistakes to bring about specieswide adaptation. Natural selection requires variation, and variation requires mutations- those accidental deletions or additions of material deep within the DNA of our cells. In an increasingly slick, fast-paced, automated, impersonal world, one in which we are constantly being reminded of the narrow margin for error, it is refreshing to be reminded that mistakes are a powerful and necessary creative force. A few important but subtle “mistakes,” in evolutionary terms, may save the human race. -page 10 ending the intro
As for attacking a strawman- YOU would know about that. 1- No one insists on the fixity of species 2- No one argues against the macro-evolution you are using.Joseph
March 2, 2009
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2) agency, whatever that agency is but always something other than nature, operating freely.
To distiunguish design from nature is just a dead end, IMO.
Umm THAT is the whole point of EVERY design-centric venue. IOW EVERY design-centric venue seeks to do just that- separate nature, operating freely from agency involvement. I have over 40 years of such experience. How much experience do you have?Joseph
March 2, 2009
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Allen and bFast: I reviewed Allen's 'Sources of Heritable Variation' on his Website. Since these variations are heritable, they must involve changes to genomes. So, I think the basic thrust of bFast in #25, points 1-3, is correct - let's not get bogged down in equivocations about point mutation vs other random genetic changes. It all boils down to the classical 'random mutation,' though not in the simplistic way brandished like a club by creationists. (And I think it would be felicitous if you would both leave out the argumentative rhetoric.)Adel DiBagno
March 2, 2009
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Thanks Collin. There's a lot of people here more knowledgable than me, BTW. whoisyourcreator [3]:
Gene duplication is just another fantasy that has never been proven to occur. Here are the problems:
To me, gene duplication by itself seems like sort of a modest claim. Its hard to believe that someone would be claiming that gene duplication itself is some insurmountable challenge, some absurd preposterous, fly-in-the-face-of-reason task for a gene to be duplicated by accident.
There is NO scientific proof that gene duplication can create genes with more complex functions. Research papers reflect this admission by using words “most likely”:
So this would be a different objection you're making. However it seems apparent that a gene duplication itself does not create a new function (it merely duplicates something). So it seems you wouldn't actually need a proof for that. Also, gene duplication with subsequent modification does not seem like some completely new, outlandish speculation that's being foisted on the public of late. Rather it seems right in line with the traditional evolutionary viewpoint, wherein an entire organism is duplicated, only with some slight variations. (I'm not going to have time to go through all your sources this evening, unfortunately) ...
Also, what Darwinists fail to present is a feasible step-by-step scenario how each gene could: - split their functions in a precise manner so that neither function would be disabled until ‘random chance’ completed the event; - become fixed in the population during each new step:
I think both sides have used the strategy of demanding a complete step-by-step explanation from the other side. I.D. for their part tends to respond we don't have to know anything about the process to know it was design. To me though, any act of design would be a process - a long convoluted process involving many participants. Why shouldn't we expect there to be a long drawn out error-prone process in the "design" of living things as well? The only reason I can think of is that this would seem to many I.D. advocates as an insult to their concept of an of an infallible all-powerful God, a God who can just materialize things instantaneously with no errors or no thinking at all. Well, why call that "design" if that's how it happened? Design to me is inherently a search process, i.e. searching for something that meets some criteria. But only fallible limited things have to search. To me, it is a fallible universe that is doing the searching, and what it ultimately converges on, what persists ultimately, says something about the nature of God, but not that God is actually doing the designing or searching himself. I mean I would say that there is front-loading of information if I understand that correctly, but the front-loaded information would be infinite, not specific. Maybe the idea of the universe doing the design is wrong frankly. But it seems like a coherent and understandable perspective to me. As far as step-by-step explanations, histories of the early germanic tribes are highly speculative but far from worthless.JT
March 1, 2009
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There are no accepted definitions of the terms, life, species, science and intelligence within the scientific community. And in reference to evolution, there is no accepted definition of macroevolution and it is not quite clear just what is microevolution is. And the word evolution has several definitions so the chance that two people having a discussion on evolution and using the same definition is low.jerry
March 1, 2009
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