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Questioning The Role Of Gene Duplication-Based Evolution In Monarch Migration

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Each year about 100 million Monarch butterflies from Canada and northeastern United States make their journey to the Mexican Sierra Madre mountains in an astonishing two-month long migration (Ref 1).  They fly 2500 miles to a remote area that is only 60 square miles in size (Ref 1).  No one fully understands what triggers this mass movement of Lepidopterans.  But there is no getting away from the fact that this is a phenomenon that, as one review summed up, “staggers the mind”, especially when one considers that these butterflies are freshly-hatched (Ref 1).  In short, Monarch migrants are always “on their maiden voyage” (Ref 2).  The location they fly to is home to a forest of broad-trunked trees that effectively retain warmth and keep out rain- factors that are essential for the Monarchs’ survival (Ref 1).
 
With a four-inch wingspan and a weight of less than 1/5th of an ounce, it is remarkable that the Monarchs survive the odyssey (Ref 1).  Making frequent stops for nectar and water, they fly approximately 50 miles a day avoiding all manner of predator.  Rapidly shifting winds over the great lakes and scorching desert temperatures in the southern states provide formidable obstacles (Ref 1).  Nevertheless the Monarchs’ finely-tuned sense of direction gets most of them across.
 
It was not until 1975 that scientists first uncovered the full extent of the Monarch’s migration (Ref 1).  What has become clear since then is that only Monarchs travel such distances to avoid the “certain death of a cold winter”.   According to University of Toronto zoologist David Gibo, soaring is the key to making it to Mexico (Ref 1). Indeed flapping wings is about the most energy inefficient way of getting anywhere.  Other aspects of the Monarch’s migration-linked behaviors, such as the reproductive diapause that halts energy-draining reproductive activity during its journey, continue to fascinate scientists worldwide (Ref 2).  Both diapause and the 6-month longevity characteristic of Monarchs are caused by decreased levels of Juvenile Hormone which is itself regulated by four genes (Ref 2).
 
Exactly how Monarchs navigate so precisely to such a specific location is a subject of intense debate.  One theory suggests that they respond to the sun’s location, another that they are somehow sensitive to the earth’s magnetic field (Ref 1).  Recent molecular studies have shown that Monarchs have specialized cells in their brains that regulate their daily ‘clock’ and help keep them on course (Ref 3).  Biologist Chip Taylor from the University of Kansas has done some remarkable tagging experiments demonstrating that even if Monarchs are moved to different locations during the course of their journey south, they are still able to re-orient themselves and continue onwards to their final destination (Ref 1). 
 
A study headed by Stephen Rappert at the University of Massachusetts has elucidated much of the biological basis of the timing-component of Monarch migration (Ref 3).  Through a process better known as time-compensated sun compass orientation, proteins with names such as Period, Timeless, Cryptochrome 1 and Cryptochrome 2 provide Monarchs with a well-regulated light responsiveness during both day and night (Ref 3).  While Cryptochrome 1 is a photoreceptor that responds specifically to blue light, Cryptochrome 2 is a repressor of transcription, efficiently regulating the period and timeless genes during the course of a 24-hour light cycle (Ref 3).  Investigations using Monarch heads have not only provided exquisite detail of the daily, light-dependent oscillations in the amounts of these proteins but have also revealed a ‘complex relationship’ of molecular happenings. 
 
Indeed, the activities of both Cryptochrome 2 and Timeless are intertwined with at least two other timing proteins called ‘Clock’ and ‘Cycle’ (Ref 3).  Preliminary results suggest that Period, Timeless and Cryptochrome 2 form a large protein complex, with Cryptochrome 2 being a repressor of Clock and Cycle transcription.  Cryptochrome 2 is also intimately involved with an area of the Monarch’s brain called the Central Cortex that likely houses the light-dependent ‘sun compass’, so critical for accurate navigation (Ref 3).
 
Rappert’s team have speculated that the Monarch’s dual Cryptochrome light response system evolved into the single Cryptochrome systems found in other insects through a hypothetical gene loss event (Ref 3).  Furthermore they have suggested that the dual Cryptochrome system itself arose through a duplication of an ancestral gene (Ref 3).  Biologist Christopher Wills wrote of gene duplication as a ‘rare occurrence’ in which “an extra copy of a gene gets placed elsewhere in the genome” (Ref 4, p.95).  Seen from an evolutionary perspective, these two gene copies are then “free to evolve separately…shaped by selection and chance to take on different tasks” (Ref 4, p.95).
 
While experiments have shown that transgenic Monarch Cryptochrome 1 can rescue Cryptochrome deficiency in other insects such as fruit flies, what still remains elusive is how exactly gene duplication could have lead to two proteins with such widely-differing functions as those found in the two Monarch Cryptochromes.  Indeed biochemist Michael Behe has been instrumental in revealing the explanatory insufficiencies of terms such as gene duplication and genetic shuffling within the context of molecular evolution.  As Behe expounded:
 
“The hypothesis of gene duplication and shuffling says nothing about how any particular protein or protein system was first produced- whether slowly or suddenly, or whether by natural selection or some other mechanism….. In order to say that a system developed gradually by a Darwinian mechanism a person must show that the function of the system could “have formed by numerous, successive slight modifications”…If a factory for making bicycles were duplicated it would make bicycles, not motorcycles; that’s what is meant by the word duplication.  A gene for a protein might be duplicated by a random mutation, but it does not just “happen” to also have sophisticated new properties” (Ref 5, pp.90, 94).
 
When it comes to supplying a plausible mechanism for how gene duplication and subsequent natural selection led to two distinctly functioning Cryptochromes and how these then integrated with other time-regulatory proteins in Monarch brains, there is a noticeable absence of detail.  Each successive slight modification of a duplicated gene would have had to confer an advantage, for selection and chance to get anywhere.  Furthermore the newly duplicated Cryptochrome would have had to have become successfully incorporated into a novel scheme of daylight processing for migration patterns to begin. 
 
Evolutionary biology must move beyond its hand-waving generalizations if it is to truly gain the title of a rigorous scientific discipline.  In the meantime, protein systems such as the Monarch’s Cryptochromes will continue to challenge what we claim to know about evolutionary origins.
     
References
1. NOVA: The Incredible Journey Of The Butterflies, Aired on PBS on the 27th January, 2009, See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/butterflies/program.html
 
2. Haisun Zhu, Amy Casselman, Steven M. Reppert (2008), Chasing Migration Genes: A Brain Expressed SequenceTag Resource for Summer and Migratory Monarch Butterflies (Danaus plexippus), PLoS One, Volume 3 (1), p. e1345
 
3. Haisun Zhu, Ivo Sauman, Quan Yuan, Amy Casselman, Myai Emery-Le, Patrick Emery, Steven M. Reppert (2008), Cryptochromes Define a Novel Circadian Clock Mechanism in Monarch Butterflies That May Underlie Sun Compass Navigation, PLoS Biology, Volume 6 (1), pp. 0138-0155
 
4. Christomper Wills (1991), Exons, Introns & Talking Genes: The Science Behind The Human Genome Project, Oxford University Press, Oxford UK
 
5. Michael Behe (1996), Darwin’s Black Box, The Biochemical Challenge To Evolution,  A Touchstone Book Published By Simon & Schuster, New York

 

Copyright (c) Robert Deyes, 2009

Comments
Sorry to keep this going just a bit longer, but I have some hope that JT may just "get it" very soon. I asked: "Do you use “magic” when you have a future goal of communicating a concept with someone on this board and then engineer a comment in order to attempt to acquire that future goal? Does an AI system use “magic” to model the future and then generate a target and steer itself toward that target — ie: a chess program samples future possible states and then follows the rules of the game while aiming at a future goal of winning the game according to specified rules." JT, you responded: "OK so now you’re saying an AI system is intellgent according to I.D.s defintion of the term But an AI system operates according to chance and necessity." First, just answer the question, since it has everything to do with your claim that intelligence is equal to randomness and that intelligence is no different than "magic." You are the one claiming that appealing to intelligence is just like appealing to "magic" while at the same time completely ignoring one fundamental aspect whereby most ID proponents define intelligence -- that is "foresight." Do you have and do you ever use your foresight (as I have defined it for the purpose of ID theory). Second, AI systems are called *artificial intelligence" for a reason. They model future possibilities and work toward a future target which does not yet exist, as in the chess program example. Thus, they have the most rudimentary form of foresight without being conscious of their foresight. They have artificial, as opposed to conscious or "real" foresight. Finally, AI systems are more than just law and chance. As already explained, and completely ignored by yourself, AI fundamentally consists of programming. There is a very important distinction between this programming (instructional information) and law or chance. The distinction is that this instructional information is made up of a sequential organization of states which is neither defined by law as mathematical descriptions of regularity, nor is this organization defined by law as a result of any physical-chemical properties of those states. Furthermore, chance/statistical randomness/background noise is not a good explanation of the programming necessary to create AI and I'm sure you would agree. If not, please provide evidence for your assertions. KF unfortunately had to remind you of the very simple fact that the programming necessary for an AI system comes from a programmer using his foresight (one aspect of intelligence). JT: "Something that can be described by a program is not I.D.’s intelligence, unless I.D has changed their meaning of the term." Some IDers think that conscious intelligence can't be described by a program. I am agnostic on that, however, this contention is not necessary in order to define aspects of intelligence and then detect its effects. I have merely shown that some programs do indeed have a non-conscious form of foresight. Thing is, though, that these AI systems require conscious intelligence (conscious foresight) in their full causal chain. Furthermore, even if conscious intelligence were able to be defined as a program that still doesn't show that it is reducible to chance and law, because of the instructional information (non lawful, non random, highly improbable, functionally specified states) at the base of the program. This would then further require previous intelligence and thus the potential of an intelligence - information - intelligence loop with no room for merely chance and law. JT: "Its evident you’ve changed the meaning." Nope, foresight is definitely integral to intelligence. Look up the meaning of intelligence and you will see that most terms which define intelligence require foresight. I stated: "Intelligence is describable by laws *plus* information." JT: "I think you said somewhere that an AI program is laws plus information." Yes, I've stated and also shown that over and over and all you have for a comeback is ... JT: "an AI program is chance + necessity." ... which I have shown to be incorrect. JT, you then conclude with: "If necessity is above a certain threshold of complexity you evidently want to rename it “information”. Rename whatever you want." The "information" that people here, including myself, have been trying to explain to you is the exact opposite of "necessity" (low contingency). It has nothing to do with "necessity" above a certain threshold so I have no idea what "renaming" you are talking about. There are two types of information that have been explained to you in this discussion: 1. CSI, which is not just "necessity above a certain threshold of complexity." It is a highly contingent pattern of specified complexity which uses up all probabilistic resources. Dembski merely took a term which was created before him (as KF has explained over and over and over again) and put some math behind it. 2. Instructional information. This is the information that I have been trying to explain to you for quite some time now. I've explained the significance of instructional information (which is neither defined nor caused by law nor best explained by chance) to you above.CJYman
March 5, 2009
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KF: When I say that an AI program operates according to chance and necessity I mean It operates according to a program. The ‘chance’ aspect would enter in primarily if there are chance attributes in the program’s [e.g. a robot’s] environment. By saying it operates according to chance and necessity I do not mean that the program fell together by chance. Tim:
There are certainly those who claim that the ideas listed above are illusion, mere memes, pre-determined, and now equated in some way to randomness
You’re just not reading my posts or something. I do not think anything operating according to law is random – that would include program, animals and so on. I am saying that the I.D. conception of “intelligence” or “intelligent agency” equates to randomness because ID says it is something distinct from law. Bill Dembski would (in fact should) inform you all that a computer program operates according to chance and necessity. I don’t have any more time to devote to this right now. I may try to come back and revisit this discussion later today.JT
March 5, 2009
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JT, look what you did with the following claim concerning the agency. You wrote that "[Dembski] just continues to blithely assume that ‘agency’ is self evident." Your argument seems to revolving around saying that Dembski is merely being blythe, and by implication, uncritical, blind, stubborn and stupid. I think you should consider the following . . . Don’t you realize that everybody finds agency to be self evident? Notice that I did not say that everybody believes in agency, or in free will, or in creative power, or foresight, etc . . . What I did say is that everyone finds it to be self evident. There are certainly those who claim that the ideas listed above are illusion, mere memes, pre-determined, and now equated in some way to randomness (thanks, but really do you want to go there?), etc . .. My point is this: Look at the sophistry needed to maintain such a point; look how it leads in so many ways to ridiculous conclusions concerning epistemology; look at the utter vacuity of any type of heuristic advantage for those who hold such a view; look at the company you keep! CJYman's and KF’s posts are devastating to your position. Instead of latching on to and extending a new argument yet again, try to rebut the general ideas; otherwise, you come off as a troll. IMO, you have done nothing to support your assertion except to rely on the idea that, well, that you have no real intelligence. This is not me calling names; this is me reminding you of your main point!Tim
March 5, 2009
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8 --> Just so, directed contingency is not (a) simply reducible to or (b) equivalent to undirected, stochastic contingency. And to claim either of these is to reduce oneself to absurdity. 9 --> Similarly, while all viable aircraft designs had better play by the rules of aerodynamics thermodynamics, structural mechanics etc, aircraft are designed, they are neither simply chance or chance + necessity alone. they exhibit KNOWN, purposefully directed contingency. Vast, designer-specific and case-specific contingency in fact. While also showing commonalities of structure, materials etc reflecting underlying constrains of the forces and materials provided by nature, starting with atoms and the four general forces. 10 --> Perhaps, it is your case that designers, per evolutionary materialist thought, are themselves the product of chance + necessity, so their work reduces to chance + necessity. On pain of question-begging, that has to be SHOWN, not merely asserted; it is one of the issues in contention. 11 --> And ID simply says, we see known characteristics of design in every case where we know the causal story independently. Such as FSCI, IC, etc. So, on empiriclaly based inference to best (of course provisional) explanation, we can safely infer to design when we see such. 12 --> Moreover, we know that once the algorithmic storage, or the functional specification exceeds 1,000 bits, it is reasonable on search space reasons that functional configs cannot be accessed by chance dominated processes. 13 --> In the case of DNA, the observed storage starts at 600 k bits. But, one might be inclined to argue for biochemical predestination a la Kenyon in 1969. That failed empirically, and indeed the chaining chemistry and the informational function are essentially independent the one from the other. 14 --> Not to mention, the algorithms, the storage molecules, their interface molecules, the code and its interpretation, and the effecting machinery all have to come together in the right configuration at the right time for the system to work. Drop any one and it fails. Irreducible complexity. 15 --> But maybe DNA etc are written into the laws of our cosmos, so that necessity includes in effect a life program. Such has not been observed of course, but if it were observed, that would implicate something else: design of the cosmos as a whole to facilitate and then produce life. _________________ So, JT, you need to show to us now that you are engaging in serious mutual dialogue, rather than one-way, question-begging, strawman- knocking, closed-minded fallacious objection- spewing trollish monologue. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 5, 2009
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JT, 64:
randomness by itself is a nonstarter . . . I.D.’s concept of intelligence is also a non-starter as it also equates to randomness.
1 --> JT, kindly show us just how design equates to randomness. 2 --> if you mean that randomness and design have in them high contingency, but of course. For, that is why both are in that sense opposite to mechanical forces. 3 --> Indeed, the explanatory filter looks at different aspects of an object or phenomenon, and where it sees natural regularity [a predictably determined outcome once certain inputs are there] it infers to mechanical, law-like force of necessity. (E.g. a dropped heavy object reliably falls. At the rate of 9.8 N/kg on earth.) 4 --> But, sometimes there are aspects that show high contingency instead. That is, under very similar initial conditions, we get quite diverse outcomes. E.g. if the dropped object is a 6-sided fair die, its uppermost side is quite contingent for practical purposes. (Thanks to: 8 corners, 12 edges and resulting sensitivity to initial and onward circumstances obtaining and it hits and tumbles. No practically feasible calculation will generally give the exact outcome reliably; at least that's what Las Vegas bets its income on. Quantum indeterminacy would only add to that.) 5 --> So, we can conceptually recognise that chance processes are those that exhibit credibly undirected, stochastic contingency. (E.g. a fair die distributes its outcomes across {1,2,3,4,5,6} with odds of 1/6 each. notice, a fair die can be integrated into a wider designed and even rules based context or a program. Dice are used in games, including e.g. table-top war games. And if we use a pair or a triplet, the summmed outcomes most certainly are NOT flat-even. [Are you willing to argue that the summed outcome is NOT a random variable? That clustering of micro-state outcomes to give recognisable macrostates of different probability resting on numbers of ways to get tot hem, is foundational to statistical thermodynamics, BTW.]) 6 --> But some dice are NOT fair, i.e they are loaded. So -- as I and others here have pointed out to you and others of your ilk repeatedly in recent weeks here at UD -- they show credibly directed, purpose-oriented contingency. That is, DESIGN. 7 --> As Las Vegas gaming houses know, loaded dice are NOT equivalent to fair ones, and dice- loaders are not equivalent to those who play with fair dice. Nor are such simply reducible the one to the other. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
March 5, 2009
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But an AI system operates according to chance and necessity.
No an AI system operates according to its program under the constraints of the laws of physics. Chance may have a small role, but it would be very small and may only be apparent when something fails. JT what ID literature have you read? The following offers a list that you should read: Recommended Literature Pertaining to Intelligent Design Please check out that list and tell me which books you have read. Thanks...Joseph
March 5, 2009
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JT, 79:
an AI program is chance + necessity. If necessity is above a certain threshold of complexity you evidently want to rename it “information”.
JT, AI programs are duly designed based on algorithms, coded and run on machines, debugged and eventually commissioned by PROGRAMMERS. They are observed to be artifacts of design. If an Ai program requires more than 1,000 bits of functional information -- about 128 bytes worth -- the number of configs that that capacity specifies is more than 10 times the SQUARE of the number of quantum states accessible by all the atoms of the observed cosmos across its credible lifetime. That is, we cannot sample more than 1 in 10^150 of the config space. That is a short program, and chance + necessity are not reasonably capable of accessing such functional complexity. Transferring to life, from first life, we observe DNA storing from 600k bits up, and increments of 10's - 100's of M bits to get to novel body plans. tha tis vastly beyond the reach of chance but is well within the reach of programmers. And if you want to say necessity of built in laws/forces of nature cut the odds, by directing the contingency, you are effectively saying that someone monkeyed with the laws of nature to set up life. (And, in the teeth of the evidence on DNA and amino acid chaining, which is not that sharply constrained -- it is the very flexibility of the chaining that makes them so useful for life forms! Cf where Dean Kenyon's 1969 biochemical Predestination thesis would up by 1984, and why Kenyon is now a design thinker. Check out the foreword by Kenyon to Thaxton et al's The Mystery of Life's Origin.) Pardon, your reductio ad absurdum is showing . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 5, 2009
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You continue: “Randomness is impossible to predict, I.D. says intelligence cannot be predicted. For I.D. Intelligence is a magical black box that has “foresight” via some indescribable method, and can output functionally complex artifacts via some indescribable method. Maybe “magic” would be a more appropriate term.” Where did that come from? Do you use “magic” when you have a future goal of communicating a concept with someone on this board and then engineer a comment in order to attempt to acquire that future goal? Does an AI system use “magic” to model the future and then generate a target and steer itself toward that target — ie: a chess program samples future possible states and then follows the rules of the game while aiming at a future goal of winning the game according to specified rules.
OK so now you're saying an AI system is intellgent according to I.D.s defintion of the term But an AI system operates according to chance and necessity.
While it is true that conscious intelligence is not yet understood, why would you equate it with “magic?” I honestly have no idea what you are talking about when you use that term. Can you define it please? Non conscious intelligence is understood and programmers understand how it operates.
If they understand how it operates, or someone can potentially understand how it operates, then its not magic. Something that can be described by a program is not I.D.'s intelligence, unless I.D has changed their meaning of the term. Its evident you've changed the meaning.
Intelligence is describable by laws *plus* information.
I think you said somewhere that an AI program is laws plus information. an AI program is chance + necessity. If necessity is above a certain threshold of complexity you evidently want to rename it "information". Rename whatever you want.JT
March 4, 2009
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CJYman, JT is a space cadet, a troll, a mindless wonder who spews forth idiocy just to be argumentative. He doesn't understand what intelligence is because he doesn't have any. Write him off.bFast
March 4, 2009
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Hello JT, I may be getting a little snippy myself and I apologize in advance, but it is clear that you are confusing yourself and seem to have no idea what you are talking about, nor does it seem that you understand what you are criticizing. If you have questions, please ask, but I can get a little impatient when assertions sans evidence are flung around. You start by stating: “…because I.D.’s concept of intelligence is also a non-starter as it also equates to randomness.” I ask: "Can you please show how foresight…equates to randomness?" You continue on with: "Randomness means not governed by law. I.D. says intelligence is not governed by law." Yes, that is part of it. Randomness is either equated with something either being unguided, or being characterized by lack of pattern -- which is akin to lack of law (which describes regular patterns). This is why I later stated that "I understand how you may be saying that highly contingent patterns are characteristic of both intelligence and randomness." Highly contingent patterns, btw, are not characterized by law. Which you came back with: "No that’s not what I mean." Yet that's exactly what you stated above when you stated that both intelligence and randomness are not governed by law -- thus they will both produce highly contingent events. In light of this misunderstanding, I recommend you read through both of my responses again (they really are quite short, yet to the point). You continue: "Randomness is impossible to predict, I.D. says intelligence cannot be predicted. For I.D. Intelligence is a magical black box that has “foresight” via some indescribable method, and can output functionally complex artifacts via some indescribable method. Maybe “magic” would be a more appropriate term." Where did that come from? Do you use "magic" when you have a future goal of communicating a concept with someone on this board and then engineer a comment in order to attempt to acquire that future goal? Does an AI system use "magic" to model the future and then generate a target and steer itself toward that target -- ie: a chess program samples future possible states and then follows the rules of the game while aiming at a future goal of winning the game according to specified rules. While it is true that conscious intelligence is not yet understood, why would you equate it with "magic?" I honestly have no idea what you are talking about when you use that term. Can you define it please? Non conscious intelligence is understood and programmers understand how it operates. All that needs to be done is understand how to generate consciousness and then mix it with intelligence. JT: "I do not believe humans or any other animal operate via what I.D. calls “Intelligence” (i.e. magical process that is not actually characterizable or describable by laws.)" Why don't you use the definition that I used when describing intelligence and foresight? Why did you feel it was expedient to make up a straw man definition including a word -- "magic" -- which basically means "I don't understand how it works." Of course, we don't understand everything about how conscious intelligence -- conscious foresight -- works yet. Yet, we do understand that foresight (as I have defined it) does exist and is responsible for certain effects. What's your point? JT: "The most complex program in existance operates according to laws - not the laws of electricity or gravity but the laws of its own program." Intelligence is describable by laws *plus* information. Every example of AI has programmed instructions consisting of an organization of states not defined by any physical properties of the states. The organization of these states are also highly contingent. Thus, intelligence is not reducible to *only* laws. Although laws are a component, you are missing another highly contingent component -- that of these instructional states. By now you should understand that high contingency does is not characteristic of law, yet is characteristic of randomness and intelligence (foresight -- as I have defined it above). So, are the programmed instructions at the base of an intelligent system better characterized by previous intelligence (including foresight) or randomness? I've already explained this to you in many ways a few times before, but you just don't seem to be getting it. Are you seeing the potentially necessary intelligence - information - intelligence loop yet? I stated: "Furthermore, if you are asserting that randomness will produce the same effects as intelligence..." You responded with: "That’s not what I mean either. Well let me qualify that. I dont think randomness produces the same effects as humans, or the same effects as dogs or birds or gravity, because all these things are governed by laws. In the case of animals very complex laws, that is the complexity of their physical and chemical configuration and the physical laws governing chemical reactions and so forth." ...and these laws arise out of the non-lawful information at the very base of life. If you are not stating that randomness will produce the same effects as a foresight using system, then I have no idea what your point is since you would then have no problem with ID Theory as one could then separate the effects of randomness, law, and intelligence. Thus, the effects of intelligence are detectable. JT: "I’m not presenting some esoteric obscure concept. Why it would elude someone like Dembski for example is just an utter mystery. Is even responsive to such arguments? To the best of my knowledge, No - Just continues to blithely assume that “agency” is self evident. Same with Durston, et. al." Foresight is self evident, since we all experience it every day. We use our foresight to imagine a future goal that does not yet exist and then work to produce that goal. In many cases, these goals are neither best definable by law nor by randomness.CJYman
March 4, 2009
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JT, Intelligence is not Randomness, though they share some characteristics as you've pointed out, but is akin to non-deterministic finite state automata. In the computer science underlying these, you see that one state may branch into two or more states even with the same input, so it is non-deterministic (like randomness.) But NFA's will always be assumed to take the path that leads to an accepted final state. In the same way, let's say you have a fork in the road. Determinism will say "Always take the left path." Randomness will say "I have a 50/50 chance of taking either path." Intelligence will say "I'll take the path that leads me to the castle (or the path that has a bridge over the river.)" That is as succinctly as I can put it. Hope that helps. And if an agent seeking accepted final states seems to require a notion of "purpose", then tell that to mainstream automata theory. (Furthermore, we shouldn't be surprised if Intelligence is defined with relation to Purpose...isn't teleology what the entire debate is about?) AtomAtom
March 4, 2009
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JT, ID says that "intelligence" is not reducible to law, matter and energy. Also ID says there is no way to predict what any advanced intelligence will design. And it's not that the methods are indescribable, it is that the methods are a SEPARATE question.Joseph
March 4, 2009
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bFast, My point with Dr Spetner is that the some/ many of the mechanisms Allen speaks of have been discussed by Spetner in 1997. I'm just saying that Allen should familiarize himself with the arguements he says he is refuting. But anyway, as far as I understand it (Spetner's arguement) wasn't that something could not evolve-unevolveable- it was that its evolution was not via an accumulation of genetic accidents- the "non-random evolutionary hypothesis" with "built-in responses to environemntal cues" being the main driver. And that is regardless of whether or not he is correct about some claim of a digestive enzyme.Joseph
March 4, 2009
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JT, "Randomness means not governed by law." Huh? Dictionary.com: "proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern." According to dictionary.com, randomness is the anithisis of foresight.bFast
March 4, 2009
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CJYMan:
JT: “…because I.D.’s concept of intelligence is also a non-starter as it also equates to randomness.”
Can you please show how foresight...equates to randomness
Its very simple, really. Randomness means not governed by law. I.D. says intelligence is not governed by law. Randomness is impossible to predict, I.D. says intelligence cannot be predicted. For I.D. Intelligence is a magical black box that has "foresight" via some indescribable method, and can output functionally complex artifacts via some indescribable method. Maybe "magic" would be a more appropriate term. I do not believe humans or any other animal operate via what I.D. calls "Intelligence" (i.e. magical process that is not actually characterizable or describable by laws.) The most complex program in existance operates according to laws - not the laws of electricity or gravity but the laws of its own program.
I understand how you may be saying that highly contingent patterns are characteristic of both intelligence and randomness
No that's not what I mean.
Furthermore, if you are asserting that randomness will produce the same effects as intelligence
That's not what I mean either. Well let me qualify that. I dont think randomness produces the same effects as humans, or the same effects as dogs or birds or gravity, because all these things are governed by laws. In the case of animals very complex laws, that is the complexity of their physical and chemical configuration and the physical laws governing chemical reactions and so forth. I'm not presenting some esoteric obscure concept. Why it would elude someone like Dembski for example is just an utter mystery. Is even responsive to such arguments? To the best of my knowledge, No - Just continues to blithely assume that "agency" is self evident. Same with Durston, et. al. I don't know what more I could say at this point. (Sorry if I've gotten a bit snippy.)JT
March 4, 2009
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bFast, Please contact me offline with the details of the Langor monkey calculations. (I have a contact form on my website, linked to my name.) I sometimes correspond with Dr. Spetner and would like to confirm if this is the case (as pass along the information to him, if it is.) Thanks, AtomAtom
March 4, 2009
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Joseph, I personally am not a fan of Spetner or of "Not By Chance". The problem I have is that I tested the varacity of one of his claims, and found it wanting. He suggested that the reported mutations in the digestive enzyme of the langor monkey was vastly unevolvable. I got hold of the research he sited, did the math carefully, and found it to be not so. Further, the research had done a good job of presenting the math. The ID community does not have the privelage of being sloppy with its claims. Spetner has been sloppy with his claims.bFast
March 4, 2009
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Dr. Spetner discussing transposons- page44 of "Not By Chance":
A transposon has in it sections of DNA that encode two of the enzymes it needs to carry out the job. The cell itself contributes the other necessary enzymes. The motion of these genetic elements to produce the above mutations has been found to a complex process and we probably haven’t yet discovered all the complexity. But because no one knows why they occur, many geneticists have assumed they occur only by chance. I find it hard to believe that a process as precise and well controlled as the transposition of genetic elements happens only by chance. Some scientists tend to call a mechanism random before we learn what it really does. If the source of the variation for evolution were point mutations, we could say the variation is random. But if the source of the variation is the complex process of transposition, then there is no justification for saying that evolution is based on random events.
IOW many of Allen's 47+ engines of change make up Dr Spetner's "non-random evolutionary hypothesis". And that is why I recommend he read the book- that is to find out what is being debated- at least as far as mechanisms go.Joseph
March 4, 2009
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JT, Furthermore, if you are asserting that randomness will produce the same effects as intelligence (foresighted mechanisms -- modeling of the future to generate targets and then engineer law and chance to produce those targets), it's high time you put your money where your assertions are and provide evidence that background noise (mathematically measurable as statistical randomness) will at the very least produce CSI, or maybe an evolutionary algorithm, or active info, or functioning machinery, or anything that even vaguely resembles that which foresight is used to create daily. After all, if intelligence equates with randomness that should be no problem. Random.org would be a good place for you to start collecting data. (In accordance to your little story it is the ID proponents who are having the private, or not so private, chuckle re: randomness and intelligence). P.S. I'm getting a little tired going around in circles and having a little "assertion festival." This blog is about generating ideas and hypothesis and either providing evidence for them or providing ideas as to how one could test these hypothesis -- not attempting to argue "proof by assertion."CJYman
March 4, 2009
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JT: "...because I.D.’s concept of intelligence is also a non-starter as it also equates to randomness." Can you please show how foresight -- your ability to envision a future goal, create a future target, plan to reach that target, and then sufficiently organize law and chance to construct that target (ie: construct a blueprint and then build a computer circuit) -- equates to randomness (mathematically defined as 'statistical randomness'). I understand how you may be saying that highly contingent patterns are characteristic of both intelligence and randomness, however that only means that a highly contingent pattern may be explainable in terms of either intelligence or randomness (chance) and thus further research is necessary to discover which of the two is the better explanation. But, that is no where near close to saying that intelligence equates with randomness as I've shown in the question I've asked above.CJYman
March 4, 2009
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As for foresight as I have already told you the foresight is programmed into the organism- see Dr Spetner’s “Not By Chance”.
“as I have already told you” — Thanks. We needed the authority of your declaration. Now that we have it, the ID - Darwin debate has ended. Thanks again.
I was talking to Allen- you know the guy who thinks he can refute some argument without even knowing what that argument is.Joseph
March 4, 2009
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As for Allen’s continuing to say tat euks evolved from proks via SET, there is also scientific data which demonstrates that proks “devolved” from euks- euks came first.
you have said this many times now, but have never provided any sources or citations for those claims, or even a summary of the evidence. could you please do so?
The ONLY time I didn't present the article tat supports what I said- actually it is the basis of what I said- is in this thread. But here it is again: Can evolution make things less complicated?
Instead, the data suggest that eukaryote cells with all their bells and whistles are probably as ancient as bacteria and archaea, and may have even appeared first, with bacteria and archaea appearing later as stripped-down versions of eukaryotes, according to David Penny, a molecular biologist at Massey University in New Zealand. Penny, who worked on the research with Chuck Kurland of Sweden's Lund University and Massey University's L.J. Collins, acknowledged that the results might come as a surprise. “We do think there is a tendency to look at evolution as progressive,” he said. “We prefer to think of evolution as backwards, sideways, and occasionally forward.”
OK if euks aren't a union of proks AND if euks were first on the scene (in any evolutionary senario), abiogenesis just got a bit more difficult to explain. And if life didn't arise from non-living matter via unintelligent, blind/ undirected (non-goal oriented) processes, there is no reason to infer its subsequent diversity arose solely via those type of processes.Joseph
March 4, 2009
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Tim [62]:
“ ’Someday, I want…to fly.’ So an extremely simple goal resulted ultimately in a big complex artifact”.—JT Behaviors and artifacts based on future goals? Whose side are you on, JT?
You left out the first part: "Did Orville as a child sit around and daydream, Someday, I wish I could build a big complicated artifact of metal wire and wood and fabric and rubber.” No" The point being, that I.D. I think would tend to look at all the complex functionality of a plane when drawing a design inference. They wouldn't say, "this thing can fly, that proves it was intelligently designed." But as far as specific goals, the actual human goal was merely to fly. As the plane took shape its various physical attributes were essentially imposed upon the designers. At the end of it, I don't think the Wright Bros. were saying, "This is what I thought a flying thing should look like all along. What an incredible thing of beauty." No, in fact they probably succeeded by getting their own aesthetic goals and emotions and expectations out of it and only going where the evidence lead by meausuring the data, making adjustments, and so on. So in essence, I tend to look at the actual design as analytic, mechanical, laborious, determinstic. (You know, "genius is 99% prespiration...") The actual physical attributes of the plane had to be random with respect to the expectations they had at the beginning of the design process. So the idea is a very simple goal leading to a complex artifact. I am reminded of a brief description of evolutionary algorithms (which I actually haven't kept up with of late), wherein you can start with a simple goal that is specified, but the solution arrived at by the automated process has wildly complex attributes that were not anticipated at all by the programmers. But just to be clear - randomness by itself is a nonstarter. My impression is, that actually evolutionary theorist understand this and a good deal of them understand for example the significance of Dembski's work in this regard. However, a good deal of them get a private laugh (or not so private) about various I.D. advocates going on about "Intelligence" in the way that they do, because I.D.'s concept of intelligence is also a non-starter as it also equates to randomness.JT
March 3, 2009
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. . . after studying the wrecked plane for several weeks started observing, “there are a lot of bicycle parts in here. This thing might have originated in a bicycle shop.” That would be a valid inference to a true fact.”—JT I disagree. The reason I disagree is that although you’ve allowed the farmer to be a little loose with his phrasing, “ . . . originated in . . . ,” such phrasing is not appropriate in science. What does he mean? Does he mean that based on what he found, the plane in his field was built in a bicycle shop? Or, does he mean that based on what he found, the plane was conceived in a bicycle shop? . . . built in a shop based on a bicycle shop? Etc . . . It is nonsense to believe that it “would be a valid inference to a true fact,” as long as you have the idea of “originated.” Nonsense, not because of the validity, the inference, or the facts, but because the statement is incoherent, i.e. lacking clarity. Consider the Wright brothers and their airplane. (I wonder if Dawkins used this “analogy” as a suggestive proof of evolution; no, he wouldn’t try something obviously misleading as a vague term, would he? He is famous and a professor and all that!!) When it eventually landed too hard somewhere (ooo-eee, maybe on a farm!) and was never flown again, an approaching farmer might make an inference after observing the bike parts, “This thing might have originated in a bicycle shop.” Ridiculous. First of all, a farmer would say, “Get that cr@p off my property!!!” Then, he would notice the parts and say, “That looks like it was built in a bicycle shop! Where are those stinking Wright’s? So help me . ..” And that’s the part of the story that is so interesting. It is when the farmer notices the engine, or really any novel part that doesn’t belong on a bicycle when he immediately turns not to any bicycle shop owner to complain about the mess on his rye, but specifically to the one bicycle shop that showed the innovation of combining novel structure in a new design that was meant to fly. “When you actual start looking closely at what we call human “design”, it looks an awful lot like evolution.”—JT I disagree. When I look at design, it looks unlike evolution. Just try to evolve a limerick! “. . . if human design is a physical process, that is, does not entail metaphysical attributes in humans, then human design is a physical process that results in complex artifacts.”—JT Here I guess we can assume that what you mean by metaphysical is any telic cause, or creativity, or innovation, or dare I say it . . inspiration. Of course, I disagree that human design is a merely physical process. You apparently adhere to this idea, feel free to explain. . . “And you can’t just throw out the long history as if it’s irrelevant to the Wright Bros, and bow to them as some sort of geniuses that materialized out of thin air to bestow on Man the gift of flight.”—JT On the contrary, the history of “flight” prior to the Wright brothers is critical in understanding the nature of their innovations. “ ’Someday, I want…to fly.’ So an extremely simple goal resulted ultimately in a big complex artifact”.—JT Behaviors and artifacts based on future goals? Whose side are you on, JT?Tim
March 3, 2009
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I misread your comment somehow:
JT writes:
“Suppose someone were studying airplanes and bicycles from say the early 1910’s, and came to a conclusion, “It seems apparent that evolution of airplanes must have begun via a duplication of bicycle technology.” This would be a valid observation, regardless that an explanation for the evolution of bicycles wasn’t provided also.”
First, and in good nitpicking style, I point out that such a statement wouldn’t be an observation, but an inference, a minor point and perhaps not to be dwelt on except for the following. . .
What I meant was supposing some airplane crashed somewhere out in remote Montana, killing the pilot. And some old farmer spent a lot of time going over the wreckage, in awe. And he also happened to have an old bike in the back of the barn, and after studying the wrecked plane for several weeks started observing, “there are a lot of bicicycle parts in here. This thing might have originated in a bicycle shop.” That would be a valid inference to a true fact..
I agree it would be an inference, a valid and justified inference, so yes, observation wouldn't be the correct term (unless I meant someone read in the paper about the Wright Bros. bicycle shop or knew them personally which I didn't) . But valid inference is all that is relevant. Researchers don't observe a gene duplicating it, they infer it.JT
March 3, 2009
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The whole thing about the Montana farmer probably came from Dawkins or someone.JT
March 3, 2009
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Tim [56]:
JT writes:
“Suppose someone were studying airplanes and bicycles from say the early 1910’s, and came to a conclusion, “It seems apparent that evolution of airplanes must have begun via a duplication of bicycle technology.” This would be a valid observation, regardless that an explanation for the evolution of bicycles wasn’t provided also.”
First, and in good nitpicking style, I point out that such a statement wouldn’t be an observation, but an inference, a minor point and perhaps not to be dwelt on except for the following. . .
What I meant was supposing some airplane crashed somewhere out in remote Montana, killing the pilot. And some old farmer spent a lot of time going over the wreckage, in awe. And he also happened to have an old bike in the back of the barn, and after studying the wrecked plane for several weeks started observing, "there are a lot of bicicycle parts in here. This thing might have originated in a bicycle shop." That would be a valid inference to a true fact.
More importantly, though, is the notion that airplanes, actually airplane technology, “evolved”. Now, I’ll grant that JT is arguing by analogy...
No I do not mean it to be understood merely as an analogy. When you actual start looking closely at what we call human "design", it looks an awful lot like evolution. And also, if human design is a physical process, that is, does not entail metaphysical attributes in humans, then human design is a physical process that results in complex artifacts. It seems instructive to compare it to any proposed physical process purported to result in complex biological organisms. And also as a side note, as I'm thinking about it, nature does not eqaute to randomness. What we call 'nature' is tightly constrained. Wildly fantasic thing occur in nature, totally apart from what I.D. calls "intelligence", and even I.D admits that. But nature is not randomness. So to say nature created or designed something is not the same as saying randomness created it.
Even a cursory survey of the history of airplane technology shows that airplane technology does not evolve at all. I know little about TRIZ, but I can tell you that airplanes, and more importantly, the technology behind them, follow patterns of development that follow theories found in TRIZ — but are foreign to evolutionary thought.
I have never seen the acronym TRIZ before and haven't the slightest idea what its referring to. Of course I could google it. But on the evolution of planes, man has wanted to fly at least since the time of Icarus. And the development of planes was quite a comical and tragic process along the way. And you can't just throw out the long history as if its irrelevant to the Wright Bros, and bow to them as some sort of geniuses that materialized out of thin air to bestow on Man the gift of flight. If they were born in New Guinea, then they would have never mastered flight, regardless of how genius they were. But what was the Wright Bros. actual goal? Was it to build a complicated artificat of metal wire and wood and fabric and rubber? Did Orville as a child sit around and daydream, Someday, I wish I could build a big complicated artifact of metal wire and wood and fabric and rubber." No, he thought, "Someday, I want...to fly." So an extremely simple goal resulted ultimately in a big complex artifact. Actually, down through history, it resulted in a lot of big complex artifacts, ones that worked only marginally, if at all. But the various complex attributes of the Wright Bros. plane were imposed on them by nature itself. These attributes were deduced through countless hours of observation, calculation, and trial and error. But it wasn't their goal.JT
March 3, 2009
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Oh, NOW I get it. . . and all this time my lack of imagination has kept me stupid. . . the next time someone calls me stupid, I'll just accept it as the scientific explanation it is . . .Tim
March 3, 2009
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Tim, let me discuss the evolution of the airplane as it evolved from the bicycle. Lets start at the beginning. It is clear that the unicycle preceeded the bicycle. It only has one wheel, and no steering wheel system. The bicycle involves a simple gene-duplication to produce the two wheels. Even the piping that makes the bicycle already preexisted in the unicycle. The development of the peddal-chain system proves to pre-exist the bicycle, as some unicycles, to gain height, already developed the chain system. The seat is relatively unchanged. The steering wheel was a major evolutionary leap, but hardly irreduceably complex -- believe me. The bicycle was followed by the internal combustion motorcycle. Inside the engine are parts that were clearly coopted from the bicycle. They include a flywheel, crank shaft, (coopted from the pedal), and piston. The piston was coopted from the mechanism that clamps the handlebars to the downtube to the front wheel. The car was a mass dupication event from the motorcycle. There really is little difference between the car and two motorcycles side-by-side. The motorcycle is the common ancestor between the car and the airplane. We see, for instance, that most small airplanes have three wheels. This is the clear indicator of that separation. The airplane propeller was coopted from the spoke system in the first seen in the unicycle wheel. The jet engine is just an evolution from the airplane engine, where the propeller was repeatedly duplicated and modified. Any questions? As you can see, evolution is perfectly obvious. Anyone who doesn't accept the "theory" (fact) is obviously stupid.bFast
March 3, 2009
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Am I just nitpicking? JT writes: "Suppose someone were studying airplanes and bicycles from say the early 1910’s, and came to a conclusion, “It seems apparent that evolution of airplanes must have begun via a duplication of bicycle technology.” This would be a valid observation, regardless that an explanation for the evolution of bicycles wasn’t provided also." First, and in good nitpicking style, I point out that such a statement wouldn't be an observation, but an inference, a minor point and perhaps not to be dwelt on except for the following. . . More importantly, though, is the notion that airplanes, actually airplane technology, "evolved". Now, I'll grant that JT is arguing by analogy, and because I argue by analogy often, I'll admit that I am loathe to nitpick the moment when the analogy breaks down as if that moment is of some crucial import. However, I am of the opinion that this analogy never gets started. Even a cursory survey of the history of airplane technology shows that airplane technology does not evolve at all. I know little about TRIZ, but I can tell you that airplanes, and more importantly, the technology behind them, follow patterns of development that follow theories found in TRIZ -- but are foreign to evolutionary thought. "It seems apparent that evolution of airplanes must have begun via a duplication of bicycle technology"? (my bolds) I am not even sure that that is a coherent statement. If it is, then what is meant by a duplication of technology? I am lost here. I began with the big nitpick on observation/inference. Line up old bicycles through modern and old planes through modern and you will be tempted to make some observations about evolving technology. However, I must insist that those are merely inferences, and furthermore, I must remind that TRIZ lurks . . . . . . probably just nitpickingTim
March 3, 2009
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