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Questioning The Role Of Gene Duplication-Based Evolution In Monarch Migration

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Each year about 100 million Monarch butterflies from Canada and northeastern United States make their journey to the Mexican Sierra Madre mountains in an astonishing two-month long migration (Ref 1).  They fly 2500 miles to a remote area that is only 60 square miles in size (Ref 1).  No one fully understands what triggers this mass movement of Lepidopterans.  But there is no getting away from the fact that this is a phenomenon that, as one review summed up, “staggers the mind”, especially when one considers that these butterflies are freshly-hatched (Ref 1).  In short, Monarch migrants are always “on their maiden voyage” (Ref 2).  The location they fly to is home to a forest of broad-trunked trees that effectively retain warmth and keep out rain- factors that are essential for the Monarchs’ survival (Ref 1).
 
With a four-inch wingspan and a weight of less than 1/5th of an ounce, it is remarkable that the Monarchs survive the odyssey (Ref 1).  Making frequent stops for nectar and water, they fly approximately 50 miles a day avoiding all manner of predator.  Rapidly shifting winds over the great lakes and scorching desert temperatures in the southern states provide formidable obstacles (Ref 1).  Nevertheless the Monarchs’ finely-tuned sense of direction gets most of them across.
 
It was not until 1975 that scientists first uncovered the full extent of the Monarch’s migration (Ref 1).  What has become clear since then is that only Monarchs travel such distances to avoid the “certain death of a cold winter”.   According to University of Toronto zoologist David Gibo, soaring is the key to making it to Mexico (Ref 1). Indeed flapping wings is about the most energy inefficient way of getting anywhere.  Other aspects of the Monarch’s migration-linked behaviors, such as the reproductive diapause that halts energy-draining reproductive activity during its journey, continue to fascinate scientists worldwide (Ref 2).  Both diapause and the 6-month longevity characteristic of Monarchs are caused by decreased levels of Juvenile Hormone which is itself regulated by four genes (Ref 2).
 
Exactly how Monarchs navigate so precisely to such a specific location is a subject of intense debate.  One theory suggests that they respond to the sun’s location, another that they are somehow sensitive to the earth’s magnetic field (Ref 1).  Recent molecular studies have shown that Monarchs have specialized cells in their brains that regulate their daily ‘clock’ and help keep them on course (Ref 3).  Biologist Chip Taylor from the University of Kansas has done some remarkable tagging experiments demonstrating that even if Monarchs are moved to different locations during the course of their journey south, they are still able to re-orient themselves and continue onwards to their final destination (Ref 1). 
 
A study headed by Stephen Rappert at the University of Massachusetts has elucidated much of the biological basis of the timing-component of Monarch migration (Ref 3).  Through a process better known as time-compensated sun compass orientation, proteins with names such as Period, Timeless, Cryptochrome 1 and Cryptochrome 2 provide Monarchs with a well-regulated light responsiveness during both day and night (Ref 3).  While Cryptochrome 1 is a photoreceptor that responds specifically to blue light, Cryptochrome 2 is a repressor of transcription, efficiently regulating the period and timeless genes during the course of a 24-hour light cycle (Ref 3).  Investigations using Monarch heads have not only provided exquisite detail of the daily, light-dependent oscillations in the amounts of these proteins but have also revealed a ‘complex relationship’ of molecular happenings. 
 
Indeed, the activities of both Cryptochrome 2 and Timeless are intertwined with at least two other timing proteins called ‘Clock’ and ‘Cycle’ (Ref 3).  Preliminary results suggest that Period, Timeless and Cryptochrome 2 form a large protein complex, with Cryptochrome 2 being a repressor of Clock and Cycle transcription.  Cryptochrome 2 is also intimately involved with an area of the Monarch’s brain called the Central Cortex that likely houses the light-dependent ‘sun compass’, so critical for accurate navigation (Ref 3).
 
Rappert’s team have speculated that the Monarch’s dual Cryptochrome light response system evolved into the single Cryptochrome systems found in other insects through a hypothetical gene loss event (Ref 3).  Furthermore they have suggested that the dual Cryptochrome system itself arose through a duplication of an ancestral gene (Ref 3).  Biologist Christopher Wills wrote of gene duplication as a ‘rare occurrence’ in which “an extra copy of a gene gets placed elsewhere in the genome” (Ref 4, p.95).  Seen from an evolutionary perspective, these two gene copies are then “free to evolve separately…shaped by selection and chance to take on different tasks” (Ref 4, p.95).
 
While experiments have shown that transgenic Monarch Cryptochrome 1 can rescue Cryptochrome deficiency in other insects such as fruit flies, what still remains elusive is how exactly gene duplication could have lead to two proteins with such widely-differing functions as those found in the two Monarch Cryptochromes.  Indeed biochemist Michael Behe has been instrumental in revealing the explanatory insufficiencies of terms such as gene duplication and genetic shuffling within the context of molecular evolution.  As Behe expounded:
 
“The hypothesis of gene duplication and shuffling says nothing about how any particular protein or protein system was first produced- whether slowly or suddenly, or whether by natural selection or some other mechanism….. In order to say that a system developed gradually by a Darwinian mechanism a person must show that the function of the system could “have formed by numerous, successive slight modifications”…If a factory for making bicycles were duplicated it would make bicycles, not motorcycles; that’s what is meant by the word duplication.  A gene for a protein might be duplicated by a random mutation, but it does not just “happen” to also have sophisticated new properties” (Ref 5, pp.90, 94).
 
When it comes to supplying a plausible mechanism for how gene duplication and subsequent natural selection led to two distinctly functioning Cryptochromes and how these then integrated with other time-regulatory proteins in Monarch brains, there is a noticeable absence of detail.  Each successive slight modification of a duplicated gene would have had to confer an advantage, for selection and chance to get anywhere.  Furthermore the newly duplicated Cryptochrome would have had to have become successfully incorporated into a novel scheme of daylight processing for migration patterns to begin. 
 
Evolutionary biology must move beyond its hand-waving generalizations if it is to truly gain the title of a rigorous scientific discipline.  In the meantime, protein systems such as the Monarch’s Cryptochromes will continue to challenge what we claim to know about evolutionary origins.
     
References
1. NOVA: The Incredible Journey Of The Butterflies, Aired on PBS on the 27th January, 2009, See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/butterflies/program.html
 
2. Haisun Zhu, Amy Casselman, Steven M. Reppert (2008), Chasing Migration Genes: A Brain Expressed SequenceTag Resource for Summer and Migratory Monarch Butterflies (Danaus plexippus), PLoS One, Volume 3 (1), p. e1345
 
3. Haisun Zhu, Ivo Sauman, Quan Yuan, Amy Casselman, Myai Emery-Le, Patrick Emery, Steven M. Reppert (2008), Cryptochromes Define a Novel Circadian Clock Mechanism in Monarch Butterflies That May Underlie Sun Compass Navigation, PLoS Biology, Volume 6 (1), pp. 0138-0155
 
4. Christomper Wills (1991), Exons, Introns & Talking Genes: The Science Behind The Human Genome Project, Oxford University Press, Oxford UK
 
5. Michael Behe (1996), Darwin’s Black Box, The Biochemical Challenge To Evolution,  A Touchstone Book Published By Simon & Schuster, New York

 

Copyright (c) Robert Deyes, 2009

Comments
JT Your posts always give me a lot to think about. I think you are right if you are saying that the term intelligence needs to be more rigorously defined. Here are some things that I think of when I think of intelligence 1. Ability to recognize patterns 2. Ability to recreate patterns 3. Understanding symbols and abstract notions 4. some ability to predict the future based on experience. I'm sure psychologists and philosophers would add a great deal to my little list. But I think that whether or not intelligence is a physical mechanism or not, it can be identified (probablistically) in nature. While you are right to point out that the combustion engine was not all invented by one person, each 'mutation' probably involved some of the characteristics of intelligence I listed above. Language, motor vehicles etc may have evolved with a lot of randomness and physical mechanisms, but they also include a lot of ingenuity, understanding, knowledge, creativity, abstract representation, and imagination. These things can lead to design in nature and we can detect that design without having to explain just what the designer was thinking when he/she/it implimented it or even what the exact mechanisms of that implimentation were. I can tell that Mt Rushmore was designed without telling you how. Same with the computer I am using.Collin
March 1, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill:
ID supporters are arguing against a version of evolutionary that was almost fifty years out of date by the turn of the millennium, which they would know if they actually had any training in the science of evolutionary biology.
Oh please. Not this kanard. We have hashed the death out of this thing ten times before. In your honor, your "engines of evolution" are frequently referenced. There is noone serious on this site that simply thinks "point-mutations" when we reference RM. However, Allen_MacNeill, I understand that the last time we hashed this thing out we agreed on the following: 1 - There are many more "random" mutational events than point mutations, and that the a random event would include events such as HGT and even fusions. 2 - There are "random" events that are not mutations, such as asteroid strikes, volcanoes, etc. 3 - These "random" events may not be truly random, that they may have some predictability. However, we agreed, if I recall that they are non-foresighted, that they occur without benefit of an evolutionary strategy. 4 - Let me also caviat that it is not outside the scope of the evolutionary model to develop strategic evolutionary advantages. For instance, if a mechanism were discovered that played a role in using HGT to spread a mechanism of viral resistance, such a mechanism would still be within the valid scope of the current modern evoutionary theory if it were developed via the naturalistic evolutionary process. In short, it is evolutionary for evolution to have developed mechanisms. Now, I have chosen the acronym NFV (non-foresighted variation) rather than RM because of our earlier discussion. However, as many on this site frequently site your "engines of evolution" when defining the RM or RV part of the formula, I find it disgusting and childish that you would mock us with the post that you referenced above. Further, Allen_MacNeill, I have no power on this site. But I remind you that this site, though a bit more tolerant now than it has been, has very few evolutionary scientists posting on it. The king of bs that you referenced above is the kind of bs that may well see more tolerant move to less tolerant. If you want to see balance on this site, if you want the truth of the evolutionary theory also represented on this site, it bodes you well to not spend your energy calling us idiots that are 50 years out of date.bFast
March 1, 2009
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Joseph wrote [1]:
- In his book “Why is a Fly Not a Horse?” Giuseppe Sermonti has a chapter (VIII) titled “I Can Only Tell You What You Already Know”, which examines this very thing- how do organisms “know” to migrate and to where?
An experiment was conducted on birds-blackcaps, in this case. These are diurnal Silviidae that become nocturnal at migration time. When the moment for the departure comes, they become agitated and must take off and fly in a south-south-westerly direction. In the experiment, individuals were raised in isolation from the time of hatching. In September or October the sky was revealed to them for the first time. Up there in speldid array were stars of Cassiopeia, of Lyra (with Vega) and Cygnus (with Deneb). The blacktops became agitated and, without hesitation, set off flying south-south-west. If the stars became hidden, the blackcaps calmed down and lost their impatience to fly off in the direction characteristic of their species. The experiment was repeated in the Spring, with the new season’s stars, and the blackcaps left in the opposite direction- north-north-east! Were they then acquainted with the heavens when no one had taught them?
The experiment was repeated in a planetarium, under an artificial sky, with the same results! The bottom-line is there is much more going on than just chemical reactions caused by genetic material. But that reduction is all the evolutionists have and I say it hampers investigations by preventing us from seeking answers outside of the genome.
I don't see how it follows from the above that there is much more going on than just "chemical reactions caused by genetic material". ID adovcates are often pressed to give an account of the designer's process, and although they are often deriding the other side for "just so" stories, one from you would be welcome here. Would the designer say, "I'm going to design these bird so that when they see a particular pattern of stars it will cause them to fly in a south-south-westerly direction, which will be advantageous for them because it will bring them right to sutiable nesting sites for the Winter." Note that even if our designer was planning that way, the birds actual behavior would still be a result of chemical reactions caused by genetic material . Its still purely instinctive, right? That's how some respondants to me have explained away the rudimenary languages of various non-human animals for example, by saying its all instinctive (as opposed to behavior exhibited by humans). Here's my just-so story: Most birds have outstanding vision and most birds are very vision-oriented as well. At some point in the distant past, there were a variety of flight behaviors being triggered completely involuntarily and randomly by the visual data the birds were taking in from the night skies. Some headed off north, pulled by some inexorable force they could not resist. They were all dead though in a few generations. Some were inexorably pulled south and a good thing for them too, because it took them to suitable winter nesting grounds and so they passed on their genetic material and thus thrived. Those who had a tendency to fly east or west or stay put also dwindled to exinction.JT
March 1, 2009
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"ID supporters are arguing against a version of evolutionary that was almost fifty years out of date by the turn of the millennium, which they would know if they actually had any training in the science of evolutionary biology." Talking about strawmen. That is one of most egregious uses of the concept I have seen here. I once compared Allen to the headless horseman who rides in quickly and then rides out. But now I am beginning to think Allen has been spending too much time with the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz. Our thing is information and the ability to generate new meaningful information and how that contradicts all current and past versions of the evolutionary synthesis. Don't use that charade of rm + ns is all we know which by the way still describes nearly all of the latest synthesis. It depends on how you define the "rm" part. Get up to date Allen. It is embarrassing for us to have to keep correcting you here by using out dated 20th century concepts of ID.jerry
March 1, 2009
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There are a large number of evolutionary biologists who explain new capabilities by duplication of genome elements, not just genes. The genome contains a large number of segments that are thought to be the result of reverse transcription or retroposition. These genetic elements remain fallow for millions of years and mutate and avoid selection. Then magically a small number of these elements become functional. This is how novelty is introduced and why one sees the phenomenon of punctuated equilibrium. I believe this simply states the theory. It is not just gene duplication but a lot of other stuff that gets duplicated and inserted back into the genome by retroposition. For example: http://exppc01.uni-muenster.de/expath/articles/Genetica.retro.2003.pdf This is why the work of Dembski and Marks and Kirk Durston is important in evaluating this type of claim. I believe this is now the cutting edge of what evolutionary biologists think caused novelty in the genome. So this is what should be debated.jerry
March 1, 2009
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While we're on the subject of gene duplication, there is very strong evidence that the origin of vertebrates involved the double duplication of the entire ancestral vertebrate genome. That is, the ancestral chordate genome was duplicated twice, producing a genome with three copies of the entire information for assembling and operating the organism. After this happened, all three copies "drifted", generally with at least one copy of each gene (among the three) remaining relatively stable (via stablizing selection), while the other two copies drifted into new configurations, many of which became adapted to other functions. This is easily seen in the detailed structure of the vertebrate genome. It's a lot like viewing the html code for a long post or template, and seeing where the writer copied, pasted, and modified the pasted copies, rather than write all new code from scratch. And, before you jump and say "that's proof that it was coded by an 'intelligent coder'", consider that much of the duplicated code is pure, non-adaptive nonsense; not transcribed, not translated, and in many cases clearly composed of degenerate copies of genes that no longer have any detectable function. In other words, the "coder" could copy and paste, but had no way to delete code that wasn't necessary, and made many mistakes besides. Kind of like copying and pasting "cdesign proponentsists"...Allen_MacNeill
March 1, 2009
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BTW, the list of known mechanisms that cause evolutionary changes in phenotypes is now much longer than when I posted that article at my blog. People keep sending me new research reports, and I run across new mechanisms in my own reading. That's part of being a responsible participant in any ongoing academic field; keeping up with the literature. I intend to post an updated version every six months or thereabouts, so if you're interested in this subject, check in periodically at http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/ for updates!Allen_MacNeill
March 1, 2009
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As for the old "RM & NS" strawman, please go here: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html ID supporters are arguing against a version of evolutionary that was almost fifty years out of date by the turn of the millennium, which they would know if they actually had any training in the science of evolutionary biology.Allen_MacNeill
March 1, 2009
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Joseph [10] wrote: And I would say the point is this allged gene duplication appears to be nothing more than an ad hoc narrative gloss, as the issues with gene duplication have been posted and JT seems to be ignoring. I'll take a closer look at yours and wiyc's original comments in a bit and respond.JT
March 1, 2009
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Sorry, JT, I didn’t mean for you to go to a lot of trouble.
No, no problem. I actually went out to walk the dog, and it took me 30 seconds to find the above.
You talking to me? No argument, man. I just asked a question. Curiosity, you know?
That entire post [15] was Allan Macneil's. Original thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/darwin-reader-darwins-racism/ [Anchor tags are not working for me.]JT
March 1, 2009
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Sorry, JT, I didn't mean for you to go to a lot of trouble.
According to Lynn Margulis, the conversion of a one-celled organism into a simple eukaryote didn’t require any mutations at all. Instead, it was the result of what is now commonly referred to as “serial endosymbiosis”, whereby the fusion of two prokaryotic cells formed the ancestor of all eukaryotes
That's a fine theory, but I doubt that the product of the fusion would have survived selection without some other changes, like mutations? (As long as we're speculating.)
So, your lame attempt to invoke the standard “RM & NS” strawman argument doesn’t even begin to address the issue of the origin of eukaryotes, which you would have known if you had even a passing acquaintance with modern evolutionary theory.
You talking to me? No argument, man. I just asked a question. Curiosity, you know? I also heart Margulis.Adel DiBagno
March 1, 2009
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Adel [13]: Allan_MacNeil wrote [UD 2/14/09]: According to Lynn Margulis, the conversion of a one-celled organism into a simple eukaryote didn’t require any mutations at all. Instead, it was the result of what is now commonly referred to as “serial endosymbiosis”, whereby the fusion of two prokaryotic cells formed the ancestor of all eukaryotes. So, your lame attempt to invoke the standard “RM & NS” strawman argument doesn’t even begin to address the issue of the origin of eukaryotes, which you would have known if you had even a passing acquaintance with modern evolutionary theory. BTW, Lynn Margulis is widely recognized as perhaps the most important female evolutionary biologist of the 20th century, and one of the top ten evolutionary biologists of all time, regardless of gender. And she completely rejects the “modern evolutionary synthesis” as an inadequate explanation of the major macroevolutionary transitions, such as the evolution of eukaryotic cells. And I, along with many other evolutionary biologists, agree with her. Why? Not only is her theory of serial endosymbiosis comprehensive and elegant, it has what ID “theory” completely lacks: a mountain of empirical evidence, amassed over four decades of hard, painstaking work by Margulis and her colleagues.JT
March 1, 2009
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Adel: It seems more and more commonplace for pro-evo establishment folks to say RM-NS is far from being the complete picture. If you really are demanding evidence then I guess I'll take another half hour or so and hunt down some quotes for you.JT
March 1, 2009
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JT:
Another observation, if I.D’s goal is the overthrow of randomness as an explanation it seems that they’re slowly acheiving that, as there has been an increasing number of remarks both in this forum and elsewhere by evo-theorists distancing themselves from RM-NS by itself as an explanation.
That's interesting, I missed the distancing remarks by evo-theorists. Who are they and what did they say?Adel DiBagno
March 1, 2009
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Dawes = DeyesJT
March 1, 2009
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Joseph [10]:
Umm duplicated bicycle technology could not produce an internal combustion engine. Also the debate is directed vs. undirected processes.
Yes, the internal combustion engine would have had a seperate incremental developmental process extending back centuries, originating presumably in patrician greek philosophers fooling around with boilers or some such. And of course whomever first developed the first rudimentary recognziable combustion engine, would have been exploiting various necessary technologies which he wouldn't have had the slightest idea how they functioned. He probaly didn't know anything about mining or refining ore for example, or oil exploration or refining, or the complex distribution processes necessary to makes such resources readily available, without which his rudimentary engine would have never been realized. As engine development proceeded into subsequent generations, future designers would be able to exploit various optimized engine subsystems, without necessarily possessing or needing direct understanding of why this systems were optimized and the laborious process necessary for previous designers to develop them. And then lets extend the process back to when metal was first refined and make the obvious observation that those people would not have had the slightest notion they were inventing technology absolutely essential for an internal combustion engine. So if you want to say the process was directed, it was directed by countless individuals, and processes and ongoing societal infracstructres, without any of these aforementioned things the engine would not have materialized. So why could not the materialization of organic things also have been "directed" by a huge multitide of precipitating factors. And if you want to say it would have to have the necessary magic of human-like intelligence, you're saying the human brain is more powerful than the entire universe.
We don’t know the exact mechanisms. But seeing the design exists in this physical world, I don’t see any reason to require anything other than physical mechanisms.
That's encouraging.
And I would say the point is this alleged gene duplication appears to be nothing more than an ad hoc narrative gloss, as the issues with gene duplication have been posted and JT seems to be ignoring.
Dawes himself in the original article wasn't questioning whether gene duplication could or did occur in this case - only its efficacy in explaining everything that could potentially be known about these genes. I did read whoisyourcreator say, "Gene duplication is just another fantasy that has never been proven to occur.", but I thought he misread the article which didn't claim that. It doesn't seem an outlandish idea to me. I haven't read everyone else's post in this thread yet, if some are claiming evidence that gene duplication doesn't actually happen.
2) agency, whatever that agency is but always something other than nature, operating freely.
To distiunguish design from nature is just a dead end, IMO.JT
March 1, 2009
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Umm duplicated bicycle technology could not produce an internal combustion engine. Also the debate is directed vs. undirected processes.
However, what I.D. cannot do and therefore should not attempt to do, is to overthrow the conception of biological life resulting from physical mechanisms.
We don't know the exact mechanisms. But seeing the design exists in this physical world, I don't see any reason to require anything other than physical mechanisms. But again the only way we can tell is by studying the design in question.
If human design is a physical process, then it will be that much easier to equate to whatever(nonrandom) physical process is theorized to account for life.
Again if I brought my laptop to the Amazon Rain Forest and handed it to some natives- do you think they could tell me how it was designed and manufactured? And I would say the point is this allged gene duplication appears to be nothing more than an ad hoc narrative gloss, as the issues with gene duplication have been posted and JT seems to be ignoring. and JT:
And for I.D., intelligence is defined as something that is not a physical mechanism, or any other sort of mechanism for that matter.
"Intelligent" in ID refers to two things: 1) To differentiate between "apparent", ie illusory, design on one side and "optimal", ie perfect, design on the other and therefor 2) agency, whatever that agency is but always something other than nature, operating freely.Joseph
March 1, 2009
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R. Dyes: In trying to deduce your implicit argument in the above article, let me give you the benefit of the doubt, that you're not saying you don't find it plausible that CRY-2 may have started life as CRY-1. Rather, what you're saying, is that this does not explain everything about CRY-2, e.g. how it acquired the functionality it has that CRY-1 does not. However, there doesn't appear to be any evidence you've presented, or in what I saw in the quick perusal of the original paper on the topic, that anyone is claiming that its a full explanation. Your implicit point is apparently that since no full explanation is provided, this is only further evidence that what has not been explained via a physical process yet cannot even potentially be explained that way. And in your mind this is further evidence that "intelligence" is necessary to account for the remainder. And for I.D., intelligence is defined as something that is not a physical mechanism, or any other sort of mechanism for that matter. Whenever any sort of physical process is at work and we don't know how it works we have to "black box" it. From our vantage point, it might as well be operating by magic as we are as of yet unable to explicate how it does what it does. So you can imagine some bizarre geothermal process for example, that no one knows how its operating for example. However in the case of most physical phenomena, there is an uncontroversial assumption that, irrespective of whether we know yet how its being produced, that there is in fact a potentially comprehensible mechanism to explain this phenomena. It is only in the domain of biological phenomena that controversy exists, presumbly because it involves our own origin. Even if there is severe inadequacy in our understanding of something, it is usually not the case that we know nothing about it. If what is described is only what is known, there is no valid conclusion to be made that the remainder can never be known, or can only be explained by a process that cannot actually be described (e.g. I.D.'s "Intelligence"). Here's the problem with saying that intelligence is not a mechanism: You are permenantly relegating it to the domain of the unknown. By arguing (from ignorance) that some as yet unexplained physical phenomena was most likely caused by "intelligence" you're saying its most likely not even possible for this phemonmena to ever be understood, by anyone. But let me be clear that explaining something via randomness is also relegating it to a permenantly unknown status. Really, randomness and "Intelligence" (as the vast majority in I.D. have defined it) are the same thing. But a deterministic physical process that explains how you got from a previous set of physical conditions to current physical conditions is not the same thing.JT
March 1, 2009
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If human design is a physical process, then it will be that much easier to equate to whatever(nonrandom) physical process is theorized to account for life.JT
March 1, 2009
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I don't know if the objection is that there might have been a process by which biological novelties emerged. In the analogy to human design, too rarely on the I.D. side is the process itself involved in human design actually examined. Another observation, if I.D's goal is the overthrow of randomness as an explanation it seems that they're slowly acheiving that, as there has been an increasing number of remarks both in this forum and elsewhere by evo-theorists distancing themselves from RM-NS by itself as an explanation. However, what I.D. cannot do and therefore should not attempt to do, is to overthrow the conception of biological life resulting from physical mechanisms.JT
March 1, 2009
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”…If a factory for making bicycles were duplicated it would make bicycles, not motorcycles; that’s what is meant by the word duplication. " Suppose someone were studying airplanes and bicycles from say the early 1910's, and came to a conclusion, "It seems apparent that evolution of airplanes must have begun via a duplication of bicycle technology." This would be a valid observation, regardless that an explanation for the evolution of bicycles wasn't provided also. Come to think of it, motorcycles also would have started by a duplication of bicycle technology. Also, the formation of CRY-2 form CRY-1 would have entailed a loss of functionality, as CRY-2 does not have photo-receptor capability and CRY-1 does. I thought I.D. would be fine with loss of information at least. When it comes to supplying a plausible mechanism for how gene duplication and subsequent natural selection led to two distinctly functioning Cryptochromes and how these then integrated with other time-regulatory proteins in Monarch brains, there is a noticeable absence of detail As far as their integration with each other, that could be explained if one began as a copy of the other. If CRY-1 was also integrated with these other genes to begin with, then it would explain why CRY-2 was as well, if it started as a copy of CRY-1. It seems the following could have been the original paper on the subject (it wasn't in your sources): http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/4/948 Thats the best I can do in 20 minutes this morning.JT
March 1, 2009
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IMHO gene duplication would be an excellent mechanism pertaining to front-loading. IOW it is a designed feature, part of the genetic algorithm, used to get a targeted, ie pre-programmed, result. Dr Spetner has gene duplication as part of his "non-random evolutionary hypothesis"- see his book Not By Chance. The design inference comes from the fact that this newly duplicated (amplified) gene requires meta-information to activate, control and integrate its product into the existing system, ie combinatorial logic* (*see S Carroll's "Endless Forms Most Beautiful")Joseph
March 1, 2009
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Wonderful post, and very fascinating subject. I would like to comment that the duplication of a piece of software program, to the purpose that the programmer may work on it and transform it according to his plans, is a very common step in computer programming (and in many other forms of design), and allows the designer to reuse the parts which can be kept in the new item. So, I have always considered gene duplication as a very likely signature of design. But obviously, as Behe points out, the duplication is only the first, rather passive step. After that, active intelligent work is needed to transform the duplicated issue and achieve the new function. Moreover, even the duplication itself must be intelligently designed: indeed, if all duplications are possible and happen, the probabilities for one random duplication to be recognized as potentially useful if and when other random events will change the duplicated piece are really virtually inexistent. Instead, an intelligent, guided duplication of potentially useful pieces of information compatible with further development can be the basis for designed evolution.gpuccio
March 1, 2009
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Gene duplication is just another fantasy that has never been proven to occur. Here are the problems: There is NO scientific proof that gene duplication can create genes with more complex functions. Research papers reflect this admission by using words “most likely”: * “Duplicate gene evolution has most likely played a substantial role in both the rapid changes in organismal complexity apparent in deep evolutionary splits and the diversification of more closely related species. The rapid growth in the number of available genome sequences presents diverse opportunities to address important outstanding questions in duplicate gene evolution.” http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0020206&ct=1 An erroneous example cited is the claim that, over 100 million years ago, two genes of the yeast S. cerevisiae supposedly evolved from one gene of another specie of yeast (K. lactis). Refer to: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7163/abs/nature06151.html What is the evidence for their claim? Nothing but the presupposition that Darwinism is true so the very existence of two genes that total the same functions of the one gene is sufficient evidence that they evolved from each other: * ”The primary evidence that duplication has played a vital role in the evolution of new gene functions is the widespread existence of gene families.” http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371% 2Fjournal.pbio.0020206&ct=1&SESSID=9999360a804131d0f0009da33ced0db9 Also, what Darwinists fail to present is a feasible step-by-step scenario how each gene could: - split their functions in a precise manner so that neither function would be disabled until ‘random chance’ completed the event; - become fixed in the population during each new step: * “A duplicated gene newly arisen in a single genome must overcome substantial hurdles before it can be observed in evolutionary comparisons. First, it must become fixed in the population, and second, it must be preserved over time. Population genetics tells us that for new alleles, fixation is a rare event, even for new mutations that confer an immediate selective advantage. Nevertheless, it has been estimated that one in a hundred genes is duplicated and fixed every million years (Lynch and Conery 2000), although it should be clear from the duplication mechanisms described above that it is highly unlikely that duplication rates are constant over time.” http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0020206&ct= 1&SESSID=9999360a804131d0f0009da33ced0db9 All genes need their own specialized molecular switch (G protein): Because of the split in function between the two genes, the molecular switch (G protein) must also be modified to coincide with the specific regulation needed to precisely regulate the new gene: * “G proteins are so called because they function as "molecular switches," alternating between an inactive guanosine diphosphate (GDP) and active guanosine triphosphate (GTP) bound state, ultimately going on to regulate downstream cell processes.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_protein * “Moreover, in order for the organism to respond to an every-changing environment, intercellular signals must be transduced, amplified, and ultimately converted to the appropriate physiological response.” http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/6/765 See movie on G-proteins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB7YfAvez3o&feature=related From http://whoisyourcreator.com/gene_duplication.htmlwhoisyourcreator
March 1, 2009
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Great survey. Perfect-pitch rhetoric. Love to see more of this kind of thing on UD.allanius
March 1, 2009
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Two points: 1- Gene duplication, in order to do something, also requires all the meta-information- a binding site, a promoter, an enhancer and a repressor. Otherwise all the gene duplication in the world will not do anything except add more DNA to the existing genome. 2- In his book "Why is a Fly Not a Horse?" Giuseppe Sermonti has a chapter (VIII) titled "I Can Only Tell You What You Already Know", which examines this very thing- how do organisms "know" to migrate and to where?
An experiment was conducted on birds-blackcaps, in this case. These are diurnal Silviidae that become nocturnal at migration time. When the moment for the departure comes, they become agitated and must take off and fly in a south-south-westerly direction. In the experiment, individuals were raised in isolation from the time of hatching. In September or October the sky was revealed to them for the first time. Up there in speldid array were stars of Cassiopeia, of Lyra (with Vega) and Cygnus (with Deneb). The blacktops became agitated and, without hesitation, set off flying south-south-west. If the stars became hidden, the blackcaps calmed down and lost their impatience to fly off in the direction characteristic of their species. The experiment was repeated in the Spring, with the new season’s stars, and the blackcaps left in the opposite direction- north-north-east! Were they then acquainted with the heavens when no one had taught them?
The experiment was repeated in a planetarium, under an artificial sky, with the same results! The bottom-line is there is much more going on than just chemical reactions caused by genetic material. But that reduction is all the evolutionists have and I say it hampers investigations by preventing us from seeking answers outside of the genome.Joseph
March 1, 2009
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