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I am reading Atheist Delusions by David Bentley Hart and set forth a lengthy quote below. The topic of this thread will be Hart’s assertions in the last two quoted sentences. Instead of putting everything in the sometimes hard to read block quote format of WordPress, I notify one and all that everything past this sentence is a quote from the book:

Nothing strikes me as more tiresomely vapid than the notion that there is some sort of inherent opposition – or impermeable partition – between faith and reason, or that the modern period is marked by its unique devotion to the latter. One can believe that faith is mere credulous assent to unfounded premises, while reason consists in a pure obedience to empirical fact, only if one is largely ignorant of both. . . .

All reasoning presumes premises or intuitions or ultimate convictions that cannot be proved by any foundations or facts more basic than themselves, and hence there are irreducible convictions present wherever one attempts to apply logic to experience. One always operates within boundaries established by one’s first principles, and asks only the questions that those principles permit. . . .

There is, after all, nothing inherently reasonable in the conviction that all of reality is simply an accidental confluence of physical causes, without any transcendent source or end. Materialism is not a fact of experience or a deduction of logic; it is a metaphysical prejudice, nothing more, and one that is arguably more irrational than almost any other. In general, the unalterably convinced materialist is a kind of childishly complacent fundamentalist, so fervently, unreflectively, and rapturously committed to the materialist vision of reality that if he or she should encounter any problem – logical or experiential – that might call its premises into question, or even merely encounter a limit beyond which those premises lose their explanatory power, he or she is simply unable to recognize it. Richard Dawkins is a perfect example; he does not hesitate, for instance, to claim that ‘natural selection is the ultimate explanation for our existence.’ But this is a silly assertion and merely reveals that Dawkins does not understand the words he is using. The question of existence does not concern how it is that the present arrangement of the world came about, from causes already internal to the world, but how it is that anything (including any cause) can exist at all. This question Darwin and Wallace never addressed, nor were ever so hopelessly confused as to think thy had. It is a question that no theoretical or experimental science could ever answer, for it is qualitatively different from the kind of questions that the physical science are competent to address. Even if theoretical physics should one day discover the most basic laws upon which the fabric of space and time is woven, or evolutionary biology the most elementary phylogenic forms of terrestrial life, or paleontology an utterly seamless genealogy of every species, still we shall not have thereby drawn one inch nearer to a solution of the mystery of existence. . . . Even the simplest of things, and even the most basic of principles, must first of all be, and nothing within the universe of contingent things (nor even the universe itself, even if were somehow ‘eternal’) can be intelligibly conceived of as the source of explanation of its own being.

Comments
Marduk, I will take you more seriously when you can answer this very simple question: Why is there something instead of nothing?Barry Arrington
May 3, 2009
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you also said "...is not a part of your mind, means only one thing - that that existent structure exists with or without you, because other people can come along in read it if you in fact die tomorrow." Without my mind present I cannot "know" that anything exists. This page could have been a dream- or it could have been taken down- it also required a mind in order for it to exist in the first place. The structure of information is inextricably linked with mind- and is in fact beholden to it. then you proclaim "The absolute bereftness of immaterialist philosophy is that it denies the language of form and structure: mathematics and geometry." yet this does not fallow from any of your arguments.... This shows a poor grasp of induction and implication as it is not cogent. Next you actually bring up an interesting point... "To say you think and perceive is to say you are recursively detecting feedback from existent forms and structures. Any mention of form or structure at all causes immaterialism to collapse because of the logical absurdity, of form without structure and the absolute requirements of existability, and detectability." THis is incporrect because to refer to "expierence" is ot refer to self. To refer to the details of expeice may or may not imply structure. Take for the example the feeling of love- this is not a structure that you can point too- it is an ecpeirence that is unique to each and every observer and is ultimately impossible to grasp existentially as the study of physics has revealed by the results of the uncertainty principle. The physical world is just a secondary organization "of the mind." The observer is required for anyhting to "exist"= as existence is meaningless without a mind to make of it. Bohr saw the world as possessing no fundamental deep reality at all. As he so eloquently put it "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." Or as Heisenberg said... "The world is not mere stranger than we think... it is stranger than we can think." This is not merely an outdated view of ancient Platonic philosophy, this IS modern physics!Frost122585
May 3, 2009
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Marduck, I think that you are ignorant and just because you do research does not mean you are correct. Much of our conceptualization comes from self reference and is apriori coming from our natural individual framework - whether that be genetic or spiritual. What you need to understand about conceptualization is that it is very individualistic- not to be confused with relativistic objectivity but overall each person has very different experiences given the same environment- and there is also choice which cannot be explained by deferring to the environment or the genome- hence the spirit. You will learn more about the origin of knowledge reading the great philosophical works of Kant- Leibniz, the bible and others than you will from so called cognitive science. The very definition of "conceptualization" cannot be understood from the environment- the brain or anyhting of this sort- the mathematical symmetry of the universe belongs to a third realm of construction that transcends the bounds of physical science and can only be explained and understood via self reference. To quote Kurt Godel... "There is more knowledge apriori than can ever be known." How we know things are true cannot be formally derived or explained- and certainly cannot be deferred to the environment- the essence and foundation of experience is owed to that which is "within."Frost122585
May 3, 2009
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All ideas are derived from the environment so we can go back to see if they were misconceived by the originators, I know because I do research on how concepts go through the process of conceptualization. Most people here are extremely ignorant of neuroscience and it's latest advances. Now because their minds are colored with misconceived concepts and philosophies poorly conceptualized, means that the concepts themselves are incoherent and empty. Especially when we go back and see how they were conceived and we can feel free to reconceive them in order to test them by reconceiving them ourselves at the point of conceptualization, to see how incoherent they are. Immaterialism is not coherent, it only seemed coherent to peoples who haven't thought about it enough and were not exposed, nor do they expose themselves to ideas that clearly overturn immaterialism. The simple question proding of socratic logic being the primary factor, by getting the person who believes in immaterialism, and prodding his knowledge of what immaterialism means, and it's consequences, which in the end would end up exposing the absurdities of the claim of it being any kind of valid knowledge. Consider the fact that you are typing on a computer and this text is saved and sent outside of your mind, the fact that you are reading this now and you know that this page is not a part of your mind, means only one thing - that that existent structure exists with or without you, because other people can come along in read it if you in fact die tomorrow. The absolute bereftness of immaterialist philosophy is that it denies the language of form and structure: mathematics and geometry. To say you think and perceive is to say you are recursively detecting feedback from existent forms and structures. Any mention of form or structure at all causes immaterialism to collapse because of the logical absurdity, of form without structure and the absolute requirements of existability, and detectability.Marduk
May 3, 2009
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I saw this quote, from the author of _Solaris_ -- a Polish sci-fi writer -- Stanis?aw Lem. Andrei Tarkovsky directed a treatment of the novel in the early seventies, and it was redone with George Clooeney, a year or two ago. Lem didn't think much of the reworking in the recent version and made this remark:
"I only wanted to create a vision of a human encounter with something that certainly exists, in a mighty manner perhaps, but cannot be reduced to human concepts, ideas or images. This is why the book was entitled Solaris and not Love in Outer Space."
I think this explains a a flaw in the hubris of the materialists among us.wnelson
May 3, 2009
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To Alan fox: In response to your #14: What I was trying to convey was not that atheism drives people to become scientists. I don't believe that. I do, however, believe that atheism drives people to look for naturalistic explanations, because if you're an atheist, where else can you look? My point, however, is that, given the thinness (absence, really) of actual scientific evidence for a Darwinian explanation of MACRO-evolution, and from what I have observed of people (scientists and otherwise) defending same, I have come to the conclusion that the reason people cling to the idea so fervently is from an a priori commitment to the proposition, made explicit by Darwin, that natural phenomena must have naturalistic explanations. This conviction is not based on science. It is a philosophical position held prior to any scientific inquiry. I think it often is subsumed within a more general atheistic outlook, but clearly it doesn't have to be, given the existence of Christians like Ken Miller.Bruce David
May 3, 2009
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----Alan: "Assuming you are using materialism as a synonym for methodological naturalism, I disagree both that it a conclusion, rather it is simply a way of looking at the world, and it is most definitely based on evidence." I was referring to metaphysical naturalism or philosophical materaialism [not that they are exactly the same thing]. Now that you mention it, though, I would affirm that metaphysical naturalism is also a premise based on preference rather than a conclusion based on evidence. Indeed, methdological naturalasm is the practice of doing science as if metaphysical naturalism was true.StephenB
May 3, 2009
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Sorry about missing "is" in previous comment.Alan Fox
May 3, 2009
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Materialism is not a conclusion based on evidence...
Assuming you are using materialism as a synonym for methodological naturalism, I disagree both that it a conclusion, rather it is simply a way of looking at the world, and it is most definitely based on evidence.Alan Fox
May 3, 2009
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Marduk You wrote:
Consider this: You are an all powerful all knowing god, yet you create beings that suffer immensely and through no fault of their own, not only that they cannot test, nor verify objectively which god to pick amongst umpteen hundred gods. The funny thing about “immaterialism” is that it leaves everything completely subjective, in a state of subjective idealism. Why yahweh, why not thor, or zeus, or zoraster? There are many more gods out there much more compatible with what we know to be true then the desert god yahweh of christianity.
Marduk: Comparing Yahweh and Marduk (or Thor or Zeus) is like comparing apples and oranges. Here's why. Yahweh is meant to be a complete explanation of reality, as Yahweh is regarded by Jews, Christians and Muslims as the Creator of heaven and earth. Yahweh is a Being who could serve as an answer to all of Gauguin's big three questions: "Where do we come from? What are we? Where are we going?" A Jew, Christian or Muslim would answer: "We come from Yahweh, our Creator. We are human beings, made in the image of Yahweh. And when we die, we will be judged by Yahweh, who wants human beings to share eternal life with their Creator." Yahweh gets a Gauguin score of 3. No follower of Marduk or Zeus or Thor could give an answer like that. The following quotes from Wikipedia illustrate why.
Marduk ... was the Babylonian name of a late-generation god from ancient Mesopotamia and patron deity of the city of Babylon, who, when Babylon permanently became the political center of the Euphrates valley in the time of Hammurabi (18th century BC), started to slowly rise to the position of the head of the Babylonian pantheon, a position he fully acquired by the second half of the second millennium BC... There are particularly two gods—Ea and Enlil — whose powers and attributes pass over to Marduk... When Babylon became the capital of Mesopotamia, the patron deity of Babylon was elevated to the level of supreme god. In order to explain how Marduk seized power, Enuma Elish was written, which tells the story of Marduk's birth, heroic deeds and becoming the ruler of the gods. This can be viewed as a form of Mesopotamian apologetics.
In other words, Marduk cannot possibly be the ultimate explanation of Reality, as he has parents. Also, he does not possess power by virtue of his nature, unlike Yahweh; instead, he had to seize it (which means he might conceivably lose it). Finally, he doesn't seem to want to share eternity with me, so why should I waste any time worshiping him? Hardly a satisfying Deity. Marduk gets a Gauguin score of 0. OK. What about Thor?
Thor ... is the red-haired and bearded god of thunder in Germanic mythology and Germanic paganism, and its subsets: Norse paganism, Anglo-Saxon paganism and Continental Germanic paganism... In the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda, Thor is the son of Odin and the giantess Jord (Jord, the Earth). His wife is called Sif, and little is known of her except that she has golden hair. With his mistress, the giantess Jarnsaxa, Thor had a son Magni and with Sif he had his daughter Thrud.
This god isn't even the Supreme Being, let alone the Creator of the cosmos. He's just a very powerful god. A god, not the God. No wonder the Vikings converted. Thor also gets a Gauguin score of 0. How about Zeus?
Zeus in Greek mythology is the king of the gods, the ruler of Mount Olympus and the god of the sky and thunder... Zeus was the child of Cronus and Rhea, and the youngest of his siblings. In most traditions he was married to Hera, although, at the oracle of Dodona, his consort was Dione: according to the Iliad, he is the father of Aphrodite by Dione. He is known for his erotic escapades.
In Greek mythology, Zeus is the supreme god, but like Marduk, he had to seize power, so he clearly does not possess his power by nature. Zeus is neither uncreated (he is the offspring of Cronus and Rhea), nor self-sufficient (he has a consort), nor independent of the material realm (as witnessed by his fondness for certain women). As far as I know, Zeus didn't bother to prepare a heaven for his devotees either. And we are supposed to worship this deity? Surely you jest. Zeus also gets a Gauguin score of 0. That leaves us with Zoroaster.
Zoroaster (Latinized from Greek variants) or Zarathushtra ..., also referred to as Zartosht ... was an ancient Iranian (Persian) prophet and religious poet.
Not even a god! I think you must have meant Ahura Mazda.
Ahura Mazda ... is the Avestan language name for a divinity exalted by Zoroaster as the one uncreated Creator, hence God.
Now here at last we have a rival to Yahweh. So before I continue this discussion, I have to ask: are you a fan of Zoroastrianism?vjtorley
May 3, 2009
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----Alan: Scientists attempt to overcome bias by repeating each other’s experiments. Philosophers are under no such constraints." Well, not exactly. Philosophers, if they are any good, must honor the dictates of reason just as scientists, if they are any good, must honor the dictates of evidence. More to the point, the former constitutes a higher order of knowledge that the latter. The principles of right reason can exist without science, but science cannot exist without the principles of right reason. For that reason, even the best science cannot compensate for a misguided philosophy. Indeed, if one begins with the wrong premise, and reasons perfectly, he will never again get back on the road to truth unless it happens by accident through a logical error. Materialism is not a conclusion based on evidence; it is a premise based on preferences.StephenB
May 3, 2009
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I would be grateful if you could point out to me where I am blind in this regard with some specifics.
It was just how you phrased a couple of things, for example:
...the Darwinist is really a Darwinist because his or her world view includes the assumption that natural phenomena must have a completely naturalistic explanation (often but not always because he or she is an atheist)
I am prepared to concede that there are more self-declared atheists among US scientists than among the general population, but I am not sure that atheism drives people to become scientists, or to look for natural explanations, since science can only look at real phenomena.Alan Fox
May 3, 2009
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Marduk: I'm flattered that you have confused me with Barry Arrington, but your comment quoted him, not me, at the beginning. However, I'll take the opportunity to respond anyway. Your comment is such a perfect example of what I was talking about in the post just prior to Mr. Arrington's that I couldn't have planned it better myself. Your whole argument is entirely based on the philosophical position you are trying to prove, namely materialism. When you say, for example, "All concepts are derived from the environment itself", you are assuming that there is an environment "out there" separate from ourselves. Or consider your paragraph: "To say that something has existence is to say it has form or structure that is in some way detectable, immaterialism is the cancellation of existent structure and form. You can’t have a negation of form, structure and their subsequent relationships as a coherent entity to base a philosophy of knowledge or truth on." It is clear from this that your assumption is that "structure and form" can only exist "out there", separate from our minds. So you see your very arguments arise out of your basic philosophical assumptions (materialism) and thus your argument is circular. If you notice, everything we know about the world is either through our senses, our thoughts, or our memories. Every one of these phenomena is of the mind and exists within the mind (and in this moment). There is no logical or necessary reason why there has to be anything material that actually corresponds to them. Have you never had a dream in which you were absolutely convinced that you were in physical reality? Can you PROVE to anyone, even yourself, that you are not at this moment dreaming? Given that, where is the necessity of a material world? It is true that the world that we construct in our imaginations based on our memories and sense impressions contains a great deal of regularity, regularity that has been partially codified by scientific laws and discoveries. However, it is equally possible that this regularity is imposed by God on this dream we call reality as by an objective, external, material existence, as Bishop Berkely so eloquently pointed out. To Alan Fox: I won't claim that I am immune from the failing I have stated and that you quoted. However, you merely state that I "suffer from" it without giving any details. I would be grateful if you could point out to me where I am blind in this regard with some specifics.Bruce David
May 3, 2009
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Marduk wrote: "Either something exists or it doesn’t if it exists then it is detectable, if it is detectable in anyway it has some kind of form or structure in a sense, otherwise you would not be able to detect it." God is "undetectable" only if you ignore the plain evidence by which He may be detected. The science of Intelligent Design--recognizing and describing specified complexity, probability, irreducible complexity and so forth--is such a tool. We see atoms and molecules arranged to serve larger functions than themselves which can neither have designed themselves nor within the bounds mathematics of the known universe have "just happened". What draws you to this prominent website devoted to discussion of almost nothing but the tools of ID theory? It is the mystery of your own soul seeking answers to that which you know you cannot explain--your own sense of "I am". Only you are not honest about it. Love, beauty, truth...these are the evidences of the God who created you to know Him; He is detectable by your soul and you know it though you willfully deny it. Let go of your pride, you know Him already.glennj
May 3, 2009
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Marduk- "Most people here have already pre-decided what they believe, rather th(a)n test it against reality" Really...have you tested this comment against reality?Upright BiPed
May 3, 2009
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I have also noticed that it is rare for an individual, even a very smart one, to be able to bring to consciousness, much less question, his or her basic assumptions about the nature of things, and that when evidence or experience shows up that contradicts or calls into question those assumptions, it is either rationalized away, or if that is not possible, simply ignored.
It's viewpoint bias, something I and, cleary, you suffer from. Scientists attempt to overcome bias by repeating each other's experiments. Philosophers are under no such constraints. By the way, with minor editing, I could agree with the rest of your comment.Alan Fox
May 3, 2009
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Marduk: "Most of them are caught in misconceived words that have infected the english language through ill conceived words passed down by our ancestors that has no actual meaning." Yes, yes I quite agree. Most distressing are these pathogenic words. Thanks for this explanation. This explains why I feel so sick right now. I only have one question for you Marduk. Is "bastradize" a misconceived word or an ill-conceived word? Yes, I believe that was the one that infected me just now.tragic mishap
May 3, 2009
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Bruce David, You said: "You are arguing against a claim no one has made. Philosophical materialism is not, as you seem to think, the opposite of “immaterial.” Materialism holds that only matter and energy exist and that all phenomena can be reduced to the interaction of particles in motion." Philosophical materialism is a moving target, you act like it is a complete system of things of agree'd upon definitions. It isn't complete as it grows as knowledge grows. Where as religion does not grow as knowledge grows. So you are incorrect sir. Most people here have already pre-decided what they believe, rather then test it against reality. Most of them are caught in misconceived words that have infected the english language through ill conceived words passed down by our ancestors that has no actual meaning. All concepts are derived from the environment itself, all truth is DERIVED from that which was previously existing from the environment through a process of conceptualization. Even the idea of "immaterialism" is in fact a material concept, else you couldn't think about it conceive of it, whether it actually is logically coherent or not when compared against what we know. All of your knowledge about the alleged idenities and characters of the gods and their religions comes to you externally from the world itself, therefore to say that immaterialist philosophy has any kind of sense or meaning is ridiculous. Since you gained knowledge about the past, your ancestors gods, their incarnations from your parents - things external to you. So they must in some sense be material. Most people here really do not get how intertwined the feedback loops are to how they experience the world itself. In order to begin to even have a thought you have to cast a ray at something to know it is there and have that thing come back to you so you can measure that it does in fact exist in some way or some manner. We all know without photons from the sun bouncing off physical objects in our world we could not see, nor detect objects as well as we could. This principle of requiring feedback to know if something exists or not (yes or no) before one can even begin to build any kind of knowledge at all shows how bereft the so called "immaterialistic" philosophy is. To say that something has existence is to say it has form or structure that is in some way detectable, immaterialism is the cancellation of existent structure and form. You can't have a negation of form, structure and their subsequent relationships as a coherent entity to base a philosophy of knowledge or truth on. Truth be told much of what is posted at uncommondescent regarding materialism vs immaterialism goes to show the lengths that christians will go to do bastradize concepts they themselves have no real grasp of. My "snarky" tone also is you reading into it something that isn't there. Rather I am alarmed at the lower cognitiity of the average christian Consider this: You are an all powerful all knowing god, yet you create beings that suffer immensely and through no fault of their own, not only that they cannot test, nor verify objectively which god to pick amongst umpteen hundred gods. The funny thing about "immaterialism" is that it leaves everything completely subjective, in a state of subjective idealism. Why yahweh, why not thor, or zeus, or zoraster? There are many more gods out there much more compatible with what we know to be true then the desert god yahweh of christianity.Marduk
May 3, 2009
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From the David Bentley Hart quote:
All reasoning presumes premises or intuitions or ultimate convictions that cannot be proved by any foundations or facts more basic than themselves, and hence there are irreducible convictions present wherever one attempts to apply logic to experience.
True, but that doesn't mean that all faith statements are equally warrranted. It may be necessary and warranted for me to assume that reasoning is possible, but it's neither necessary nor warranted for me to accept on faith that my cat is the reincarnation of Rod Serling.
...nothing within the universe of contingent things (nor even the universe itself, even if were somehow ‘eternal’) can be intelligibly conceived of as the source of explanation of its own being.
Hart presumably considers the non-contingent ground of being to be the Christian God. This in itself seems to be an unwarranted assumption. Why must existence be underwritten by a god at all, much less the specific personal God of the Christians?beelzebub
May 2, 2009
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Marduk, re your [5]: Let’s start with the name you choose to write under. The Babylonians gave the name “Bel,” meaning “Lord” to their god Marduk, thus “Bel-Marduk” or often simply “Bel.” The cult devoted to Marduk was particularly cruel and bloodthirsty, with practices that included sacrificing babies to their “god” Why would you want to go by that name? It’s like calling yourself “Hitler.” Perhaps you are ignorant of these facts. 1. You write: “Problem is to know you exit requires DETECTABILITY, you can’t be ‘immaterial’ and have a complete feedback loop of nothingness.” You are arguing against a claim no one has made. Philosophical materialism is not, as you seem to think, the opposite of “immaterial.” Materialism holds that only matter and energy exist and that all phenomena can be reduced to the interaction of particles in motion. 2. You write: “So we can say quite well that provisionally materialism has lead man to discoveries of electricity, nuclear power, and cures for diseases, what has prayer and the gods of our ancestors ever done? Oh that’s right nothing.” You say that “materialism” led to the discovery of electricity, nuclear power and cures for diseases as if this “fact” is so self-evident that it needs no evidence to support it. It is not self-evident. Indeed, it is not even true. You spout the pieties of the age like a true believer, but spouting materialist pieties is all you are doing. Can you actually provide an argument or evidence to support you bald assertion? You ask in a snarky tone, what has religion done to promote science. You assert, “nothing.” Again, you are quite wrong. Indeed, modern science was born in Christian belief. And here’s a list scientists who were Christians and the influence they had on various fields: http://www.rae.org/influsci.html Perhaps you should at least try to become acquainted with the actual facts before spouting you vacuous pieties. 3. You write: “What I find so alarming is christians so easily believe that their god exists but no other gods besides theirs exist, but they have never studied all other religions.” Have you actually made an inquiry into comparative religion studies made by Christians? I seriously doubt it. If you had, you would have found that the premise of your statement, that Christians never study other religions, is blatantly false. Here’s just one website that I found after 10 seconds on Google where Christians have studied other religions. http://www.gospelway.com/religiousgroups/index.php Whether you agree with the conclusions of the website is beside the point. The point is that your premise – that Christians never study other religions – is false. 4. “Believing in god is just what you happen to do or not do based on geography and exposure, if you lived much longer then your short life I think most religious people would grow out of it. Belief in traditional religions and their sacred text’s is the sign of a undeveloped child like mind.” Sigh. Did you actually think about any of the things that you wrote before you wrote them? Here is a list of a few of the most brilliant scientists in history who were also Christians that I found after searching on Google for all of ten seconds. http://www.adherents.com/people/100_scientists.html#Christian Do you seriously think that Maxwell and Faraday, two of the most brilliant scientists in the history of the world (to cite just two obvious examples) had "undevelped childlike minds"? Give me a break. Conclusion. You are confused and/or wrong about everything you said. That should give you pause and make you think that maybe, just maybe, you’re on the wrong side of this debate. But I suspect you won’t. Your comment has all the markings of a fervent “believer” who is impervious to evidence.Barry Arrington
May 2, 2009
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I hope I am not violating any rules, but I think that a point made earlier in the quote is much more interesting, namely, "All reasoning presumes premises or intuitions or ultimate convictions that cannot be proved by any foundations or facts more basic than themselves, and hence there are irreducible convictions present wherever one attempts to apply logic to experience. One always operates within boundaries established by one’s first principles, and asks only the questions that those principles permit. . . ." Euclid made it clear that logical reasoning must begin with assertions that are accepted as true without proof, and no one to my knowledge has been able to overcome that limitation on "reason". In my experience, most intelligent people, whether they have been trained in logical thinking or not, seldom make logical mistakes in their reasoning. Where people tend to disagree is in the fundamental assumptions of their respective world views. But what is often also true is that even quite intelligent and educated people often don't recognize the paradigms which inform their thinking. So two opponents in a disagreement frequently are astonished at how the other could be "so stupid" as not to see the obvious truth of their position, when the problem is really a clash of incompatible world views of which neither party is actually aware. You often see this at work in the debates over ID and Darwinism, where the Darwinist is really a Darwinist because his or her world view includes the assumption that natural phenomena must have a completely naturalistic explanation (often but not always because he or she is an atheist), whereas the ID proponent's belief in a Creator opens him or her to the possibility that aspects of nature were engineered. Frequently, neither can see to what extent their philosophy informs their "reasonable" conclusions. (This is particularly true of Darwinists, I find.) It is quite stunning to hear Darwinists assert that "evolution is a fact" until one realizes that it is the only possible conclusion that can be derived from their world view. It is also interesting that the Darwinist usually thinks that this conclusion is science and not what is actually is: a philosophical position. I have also noticed that it is rare for an individual, even a very smart one, to be able to bring to consciousness, much less question, his or her basic assumptions about the nature of things, and that when evidence or experience shows up that contradicts or calls into question those assumptions, it is either rationalized away, or if that is not possible, simply ignored.Bruce David
May 2, 2009
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Problem is to know you exit requires DETECTABILITY, you can't be 'immaterial' and have a complete feedback loop of nothingness. The irony of the above post is that materialism is in some sense true, for without it, no knowledge can be known. Why bother exploring the world "out there" if it is unreliable? Either something exists or it doesn't if it exists then it is detectable, if it is detectable in anyway it has some kind of form or structure in a sense, otherwise you would not be able to detect it. So we can say quite well that provisionally materialism has lead man to discoveries of electricity, nuclear power, and cures for diseases, what has prayer and the gods of our ancestors ever done? Oh that's right nothing. What I find so alarming is christians so easily believe that their god exists but no other gods besides theirs exist, but they have never studied all other religions. Believing in god is just what you happen to do or not do based on geography and exposure, if you lived much longer then your short life I think most religious people would grow out of it. Belief in traditional religions and their sacred text's is the sign of a undeveloped child like mind.Marduk
May 2, 2009
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You're right that just because this was discussed elsewhere recently doesn't mean everyone paid attention then.hazel
May 2, 2009
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hazel, Relax, not everybody reads every digression of every thread. For those of us that have a life and cannot spend hours everyday on UD, this is an interesting thread, regardless if a digression on another thread about a month ago covered the same topic. My question to you. Why are you so uptight that you must write two consecutive posts to make sure everybody knows that a digression on a thread about a month ago covered a similar point? Something bothering you? Like your conscience? Me thinks you doth protest too much.Jehu
May 2, 2009
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I agree with the first sentence. I disagree with the second sentence, especially as it leads down the “first cause” rabbit hole. I wonder why you brought this up, becaue we discussed it before?hazel
May 2, 2009
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This reminds me of Roddy Bullock's post on ARN, Everybody Believes Something Unbelievable.TCS
May 2, 2009
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