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Quotes of the Day: Atheists Are VERY Religious

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This exchange between Phinehas and HeKS brings it out as succinctly as anything I’ve ever seen:

Phinehas says:

The thing that fascinates me is how atheists are shown to have prodigious faith in something eternal with god-like creative powers [i.e., the multiverse]. It’s almost like they have no issues whatsoever believing in a god, just so long as it doesn’t bear that particular label.

HeKS replies:

I tend to think that it’s because they don’t want that eternal thing with god-like creative powers to also be personal and have the ability to ground and impose moral values and duties on humans.

As the multiverse has demonstrated, atheists have no problem at all with faith in something that is unseen, intangible, outside of the physical universe, eternal, capable of bringing about unlikely effects we can’t fully understand, and that cannot be falsified through any conceivable scientific experiment.

The only thing they insist on stopping short of is something that is intelligent and that can ground moral values and duties … and probably they stop short of the former only because of the latter, as suggested by the willingness of some to accept the idea that we’re living in an intelligently designed simulation created by other contingent physical beings based largely on the same scientific evidence theists point to as suggestive of God’s existence, which they had denied suggested design until the simulation hypothesis came along. Neil deGrasse Tyson is one such example.

Comments
groovamos and HeKS, all of the things HeKS listed, except for the starting point of the universe have competing, and better theorised natural answers. The God creation belief, equally raises the problem of ultimate origins, as does the Big Bang. Your ultimate cause, very sorry, needs a cause. Your 'causeless cause' tedium is just that unsupported faith. HeKS uses 'fine tuning' three times and roles his eyes at the 'lack of evidence for God'argument. Fine tuning, is a poor way to describe the natural constants that govern our universe, and if they are so fine tuned why didn't God make the constants nice round numbers? Was He constrained by something? His own creation perhaps? "The Universe spake, and said unto God make Pi 3.145..., and the Universe saw that it was good." And if creation constrained God's ability to round out those confounded 'fine tuned' constants; 'e' for example. What does this say about omnipotance, and the other 'oms'?rvb8
September 2, 2016
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Pindi: I just don’t see any evidence for it. This is what you would think if you really believe the universe is stupid. You discover mind boggling complexity, say for example the living systems uncovered in the studies of physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, etc. For example in vision processing it appears that along the way from the retina to the brain, visual information is processed at a series of ganglia where levels of abstraction (shapes, motion, changes) of a scene are teased out of the raw action potentials and encoded along the way to becoming perception. The abstraction level stages higher and higher from one ganglion to the next. It took huge efforts of logical thinking for scientists to begin to tease out the function of this staged visual processing. So according to people like Pindi, it's natural for logic to be required to understand mind boggling complexity of living systems, but for the thing studied and the universe itself to be characterized by a parallel but superior logic of its own, why no, no, forever no we can't have any notion of that, because everything we study in biology and in science is stupid and logic-free. Somehow. One can be so proud of one's own logical ability, but to infer an inherent logic to the thing studied is just too scary for these people. Heks: I tend to think that’s because they don’t want that eternal thing with god-like creative powers to also be personal and have the ability to ground and impose moral values and duties on humans. This may be true and may be based on a misconception anyway. The premise would be true if the Creator actually did impose moral values. Don't want to get too twisted off on philosophy here, but what if the Creator imposed a substrate for Truth in the psyche, from which moral values emanate if not blocked by the ego and propensity towards evil? About half, maybe less, of humanity does believe in something else imposed upon humans, imposed in the sense that it cannot be contravened - which is law of karma.groovamos
September 1, 2016
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Pindi: And its not that I don’t want to believe in something that is god-like and personal. I just don’t see any evidence for it.
Oh God, it's the "there just isn't any evidence" canard again. I don't know how atheists can even make this claim with a straight face anymore. Here is a sampling of a few lines of evidence strongly pointing to God's existence: - The origin of the universe (including its matter, energy, space and physical laws) in the finite past - The fine-tuning of the physical laws and initial conditions of the universe in a way that allows for the existence of intelligent life - The fine-tuning of the universe for discoverability - The fine-tuning of our solar system and planet for both life and discoverability - The origin of life, which is roughly the equivalent of the origin of biological information - Various events in the history of life that seem to show a large-scale influx of biological information that cannot be accounted for by any proposed mechanism of biological evolution that we are aware of. (Best explained by reference to God when taken in light of preceding items) - Various other events in history that seem best explained by divine intervention and that would not be expected on naturalism or materialism (such as evidence supporting the resurrection of Christ). - The apparent existence of objective moral values and duties, which people can't seem to avoid invoking even while denying their existence (i.e. sneaking it in the back door after booting it out the front door) - Various aspects of the mind, including the apparent existence of free will, the apparent existence of a rational consciousness capable of accurately perceiving external events and reasoning on them in a reliable way, the ability to have subjective experiences, and the ability to have thoughts that are about things. These facts, conditions and states of affairs make God's existence more likely than it would otherwise be in their absence or if they were different than they are, thus they constitute evidence for God's existence. If you want to say you're not personally convinced and wouldn't be unless God performed some miracle in front of your eyes for the sake of personally convincing you, fine. You're entitled to your selective hyperskepticism. But stop claiming that there just isn't any evidence for God's existence. If you don't want to accept God's existence then it's time to put on your bib and gobble up the multiverse. Bon appetit.HeKS
September 1, 2016
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I don't have "faith" in the multiverse. I doubt anyone does. It is a catch all phrase for a number of interesting theories attempting to explain what we observe in our universe. Nothing god-like about it. Is general relativity god-like? It is a theory, that was much derided by many, to explain what we observe. And its not that I don't want to believe in something that is god-like and personal. I just don't see any evidence for it.Pindi
September 1, 2016
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